California City Blocks 5G Over Cancer Concerns

Camberwell

Gawd
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Jan 20, 2008
Messages
819
The same proof that requires the banning if plastic straws. Some 8-year old probably made it up.
They have only chosen plastic straws as a sort of poster child for plastic waste in general. There is plenty of proof that there is too much plastic in the worlds oceans (about 18 billion pounds per year).

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/05/plastics-facts-infographics-ocean-pollution/

My 8 year old knows this is not made up as we see it every weekend when we go to the beaches near us....
 

Paladin21

Gawd
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Messages
529
Maybe because breathing in sawdust can in fact cause some quite serious health problems, of which one particular problem could be cancer. I'm guessing not that many people really put the correlation that breathing in fine particles of something that's "natural" (aka wood) might be bad for them in the long run.


Well to be fair, maybe they shouldn't fucking label them as 2x4s when they in fact are not 2 inch by 4 inch which is kind of why they are called that, sure everyone who is in the trades (and some who aren't) knows that all "dimensional" lumber is a half inch shorter than what it says, i.e. 1 inch thick boards whether redwood, pine, maple, oak etc are actually 0.75 inch. 2 inch by ... is actually 1.5 inch by, and 4 is 3.5, 6 is 5.5, 8 is 7.25, etc. And you can make all the arguments in the world about how the drying of said wood is what shrinks it... ironically green wood that sometimes sell that is wet as fuck can't be found anywhere close to 2 inches. Used to be they claimed it was due to the width of the cutting blades, well shouldn't that be a "manufacturer problem" not a "consumer problem" , if I was selling 1 gallon of water, but you actually only got 95% of a gallon due to spillage in the bottling process and evaporation because we don't put the lids on right away then some might be upset with me saying they're getting a gallon of water. Seriously I just redid my basement floor, 3/4" plywood for the subfloor, actual thickness 23/32 ... REAL thickness .704 inches, I mean for fucks sake they sell THREE QUARTER INCH stuff (as labeled on their signs) and then they say it's ACTUAL thickness is 23/32, and then they say the width is .704" and yeah I realize that's 22.5/32 and they're probably rounding up, but the reality is that it's kind of deceptive advertising for what they sell.

Now I get that this is a "we already know this" type of issue, but still can't explain the fact that they're selling stuff that is deceptively labeled, I won't say mislabeled because after some searching they do tell you how much it costs, but this is really no different than telling you that your tv service will be $39/month but after their MANDATORY rental fee for their box, then the "recovery fees" "broadcast fees" and "sports franchise fees" (all of which are in no way government mandated they are simply done by the cable/satellite company to sell you a more expensive product for a cheaper price than they state), this is like going to a hotel for $99/night, but when you check in there's a $30/night resort fee. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with ONLY going after Lowes, that the entire industry needs to be put on notice, and then carry that over to every other industries and don't allow them to get away with simply putting "plus possible taxes and fees" especially when all those fees are self imposed by the company, but it still does not excuse the matter that if you have sign, and on the sign it says 2x4 in 108 point font, then in a 20 point font it says "actual thickness 1.5 inch by 3.5 inch" that they are trying to be deceptive in what you're getting, and no 2x4 is not the "kleenex" of the lumber world, they could say "Framing stud" then label the thickness just as easily.

Try living in a historic home where the framing studs are *actually* 2"x4," the floor shakes are *actually* 4", etc. I had to replace a couple of trim boards last summer and the only way to get them to actually match them up was to have a mill do a couple of custom cuts for me. The "modern" measurements are only a marketing tool, there's no real reason why it's that way other than that they've gotten away with it. I love my house, but it's a damn nightmare sometimes to make repairs/upgrades due to this crap.
 

sfsuphysics

[H]F Junkie
Joined
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Messages
15,003
Try living in a historic home where the framing studs are *actually* 2"x4," the floor shakes are *actually* 4", etc. I had to replace a couple of trim boards last summer and the only way to get them to actually match them up was to have a mill do a couple of custom cuts for me. The "modern" measurements are only a marketing tool, there's no real reason why it's that way other than that they've gotten away with it. I love my house, but it's a damn nightmare sometimes to make repairs/upgrades due to this crap.
Oh I know, trying to fix old stuff with new specs is never pretty whether it's lumber, electronics, or people (looking at you old billionaires with hot young wives!), it's really not that it's "OLD" either, if you have any sort of vinyl siding try finding a replacement piece that is the same exact profile (ignore even the color) you might have a really hard time doing it. I'm sort of OK with my house being made in the 50s so everything is still to that minus a half inch standard, although I will say that every piece of wood feels a hair larger than any replacement I can get, so even the 1.5 x 3.5" studs might actually be smaller than that by a 32nd.
 

geok1ng

2[H]4U
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
2,129
exacerbate health problems tied to RF radiation emitted from existing cell towers

Tell a lie a 1000 times and it becomes "truth"

Darwin notwithstanding, we as a species are losing the right to exist if this type of statement becomes more prevalent.
 
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Armenius

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Joined
Jan 28, 2014
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28,891
They have only chosen plastic straws as a sort of poster child for plastic waste in general. There is plenty of proof that there is too much plastic in the worlds oceans (about 18 billion pounds per year).

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/05/plastics-facts-infographics-ocean-pollution/

My 8 year old knows this is not made up as we see it every weekend when we go to the beaches near us....
No doubt. I'll have to find it, but I saw research that says straws make up one-tenths of one percent of the plastic in the oceans. And most of it does not come from the US. The biggest contributor by far to the plastic pollution problem is China and other southeast Asian countries (surprise!).
 

Zarathustra[H]

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
33,104
Anyone have specific knowledge of the energy density and wavelengths they are using with 5G?

According to the wikipedia page on the subject there are two frequency ranges.

Frequency range 1 is from ~500 Mhz to ~6Ghz (presumably with gaps at 2.4 and 5Ghz) This covers the range of current cell phone networks, but goes a little bit higher, at up to 6Ghz

Frequency range 2 is 24Ghz to 86Ghz, which is nuts. Very high frequencies like this will have very short range (a couple f hundred yards at most) need direct line of sight in order to work, as the frequency is blocked by almost anything.

The irony is that in Frequency range one, the speed benefits of 5G over LTE are relatively small. (between 1% and 50% -faster) The real speed benefits come in frequency range 2, which has some huge problems. I feel like based on this, 5G is not going to be the major breakthrough everyone seems to be expecting.

I'm guessing the ease at which signals are blocked in the high frequency range is part of the problem. If a frequency is blocked, this means that the associated energy is absorbed by what is blocking it. If that is human tissue, there COULD potentially be some effect. Seems to me like a stretch to jump directly to "IT CAUSES CANCER!" though.

I'd argue more that there might be an undetectable small warming effect.

All of this said, it would seem to me that it would be prudent for companies to have to prove safety first, BEFORE deployment of any new technology or chemical. Anything without a positive safety study attached to it really should be banned. It's amazing to me how many chemicals are in current use that don't even have EPA safety test records. If I were king for a day, everything lacking a safety test would be automatically banned until such time it has been proven safe. But that's just me.

In this particular case, it seems extremely unlikely to me that 5G is going to have negative health effects.
 

Zarathustra[H]

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
33,104
Maybe because breathing in sawdust can in fact cause some quite serious health problems, of which one particular problem could be cancer. I'm guessing not that many people really put the correlation that breathing in fine particles of something that's "natural" (aka wood) might be bad for them in the long run.


Well to be fair, maybe they shouldn't fucking label them as 2x4s when they in fact are not 2 inch by 4 inch which is kind of why they are called that, sure everyone who is in the trades (and some who aren't) knows that all "dimensional" lumber is a half inch shorter than what it says, i.e. 1 inch thick boards whether redwood, pine, maple, oak etc are actually 0.75 inch. 2 inch by ... is actually 1.5 inch by, and 4 is 3.5, 6 is 5.5, 8 is 7.25, etc. And you can make all the arguments in the world about how the drying of said wood is what shrinks it... ironically green wood that sometimes sell that is wet as fuck can't be found anywhere close to 2 inches. Used to be they claimed it was due to the width of the cutting blades, well shouldn't that be a "manufacturer problem" not a "consumer problem" , if I was selling 1 gallon of water, but you actually only got 95% of a gallon due to spillage in the bottling process and evaporation because we don't put the lids on right away then some might be upset with me saying they're getting a gallon of water. Seriously I just redid my basement floor, 3/4" plywood for the subfloor, actual thickness 23/32 ... REAL thickness .704 inches, I mean for fucks sake they sell THREE QUARTER INCH stuff (as labeled on their signs) and then they say it's ACTUAL thickness is 23/32, and then they say the width is .704" and yeah I realize that's 22.5/32 and they're probably rounding up, but the reality is that it's kind of deceptive advertising for what they sell.

Now I get that this is a "we already know this" type of issue, but still can't explain the fact that they're selling stuff that is deceptively labeled, I won't say mislabeled because after some searching they do tell you how much it costs, but this is really no different than telling you that your tv service will be $39/month but after their MANDATORY rental fee for their box, then the "recovery fees" "broadcast fees" and "sports franchise fees" (all of which are in no way government mandated they are simply done by the cable/satellite company to sell you a more expensive product for a cheaper price than they state), this is like going to a hotel for $99/night, but when you check in there's a $30/night resort fee. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with ONLY going after Lowes, that the entire industry needs to be put on notice, and then carry that over to every other industries and don't allow them to get away with simply putting "plus possible taxes and fees" especially when all those fees are self imposed by the company, but it still does not excuse the matter that if you have sign, and on the sign it says 2x4 in 108 point font, then in a 20 point font it says "actual thickness 1.5 inch by 3.5 inch" that they are trying to be deceptive in what you're getting, and no 2x4 is not the "kleenex" of the lumber world, they could say "Framing stud" then label the thickness just as easily.


I only recently noticed this when walking through Home Depot with my handy dandy calipers.. I thought it was really weird, and amounted to fraud to call something a measurement you know it isn't.
 

1_rick

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Feb 7, 2017
Messages
2,043
Did they pass this ordinance while drinking their coffee with the cancer warning on it?

Actually, that was a bridge too far (I suppose having to see that warning might make Californians realize how crazy their laws are) and they're trying to get an exemption for coffee from Prop 65.

"Coffee, see, coffee," the argument goes, "is not actually carcinogenic in the amounts people consume, but Prop 65 is overreaching."

No word on whether the idiots making that argument feel it might overreach on anything else, though.
 

lcpiper

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Joined
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Messages
10,611
Well this server isn't in California so I recognize that any local issues aren't really going to be pertinent to those in other states, unfortunately others think the ideas California ideas are going fuck with their world, plus there are nearly 40 million people in the state and not everyone is as bann<sic> happy as you think.


I know your skin is thicker than that. It's not personal. And for those who live in the center of the country it is a reality that things start from the east and west coasts and move inland. Take banning smoking in restaurants and bars. The same year that Arizona finally capitulated and joined the other states, New York and Massachusetts were issuing "waivers" to allow smoking in restaurants and bars that had qualified ventilation systems and separate rooms etc.

So while we all get you, I bet you get all of us as well. Don't take away our soap boxes Mr Mean Jeans .... please ;)
 

nutzo

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 15, 2004
Messages
7,380
How come the state isn't required to post billboards: "wildfire smoke is known to the State of CA to cause cancer".

Because all these rules only apply to private companies. Government is exempt for following most the rules.
 

nutzo

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 15, 2004
Messages
7,380
Good old can't differentiate between a city issue and a state issue. FYI, happy meal toys are not banned in the state either just San Francisco, btw all soda doesn't have a tax on it, only Berkeley & San Francisco, BTW showing titties is not illegal in the state only in Palm Springs, btw.... nevermind the level of California hate on this board is quite amusing sometimes.

These bad laws always start in one or two cities. Then, in spite of how bad the law is, they then push it on the entire state.

The single use plastic bag ban is a good example.
 

OutOfPhase

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
4,307
Next on Housewives of Marin County: "What to do when you don't have any actual problems."
 

Ur_Mom

Fully [H]
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
20,560
I'm sure their neighbor can sell them some essential oils to cure that electromagnetic smog.

I'm sure they'll change their tune with everyone else gets it with a new iPhone and they are lagging behind. Keeping up with the Jones'.
 

MrDeaf

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
428
The same proof that requires the banning if plastic straws. Some 8-year old probably made it up.

oh, I thought plastic straws were being banned because we were dumping too much of it into the ocean?

There really isn't anything wrong with the replacement wax paper straws, btw.
 

Chimpee

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 6, 2015
Messages
1,683
Yeah, pretty much.

To everyone else: Mill Valley and Marin County is basically a suburb of San Francisco across the Golden Gate Bridge. Much of it is very wealthy and full of people who basically have the privilege to be dumbasses. Please don't lump the rest of California--hell, don't lump San Francisco--in with these people.

Pretty much, most of the anti vaccine folks lives in that area.
 
Joined
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Messages
778
to everyone that posted saying that california sucks because of things like this:

that is one of the reasons i am leaving.

go home cali, you're drunk
 

lcpiper

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Messages
10,611
I would like to take an opportunity to point one thing out though;

Although I think the people in this town are poorly informed and making a foolish decision regarding this deployment, I'm fine with them deciding what they want and don't want. It's their choice, not mine.
 

Nobu

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
6,815
According to the wikipedia page on the subject there are two frequency ranges.

Frequency range 1 is from ~500 Mhz to ~6Ghz (presumably with gaps at 2.4 and 5Ghz) This covers the range of current cell phone networks, but goes a little bit higher, at up to 6Ghz

Frequency range 2 is 24Ghz to 86Ghz, which is nuts. Very high frequencies like this will have very short range (a couple f hundred yards at most) need direct line of sight in order to work, as the frequency is blocked by almost anything.

The irony is that in Frequency range one, the speed benefits of 5G over LTE are relatively small. (between 1% and 50% -faster) The real speed benefits come in frequency range 2, which has some huge problems. I feel like based on this, 5G is not going to be the major breakthrough everyone seems to be expecting.

I'm guessing the ease at which signals are blocked in the high frequency range is part of the problem. If a frequency is blocked, this means that the associated energy is absorbed by what is blocking it. If that is human tissue, there COULD potentially be some effect. Seems to me like a stretch to jump directly to "IT CAUSES CANCER!" though.

I'd argue more that there might be an undetectable small warming effect.

All of this said, it would seem to me that it would be prudent for companies to have to prove safety first, BEFORE deployment of any new technology or chemical. Anything without a positive safety study attached to it really should be banned. It's amazing to me how many chemicals are in current use that don't even have EPA safety test records. If I were king for a day, everything lacking a safety test would be automatically banned until such time it has been proven safe. But that's just me.

In this particular case, it seems extremely unlikely to me that 5G is going to have negative health effects.
Without reading the spec, I would guess that freq range 1 is for linking towers together to build a network, and range 2 is for short range communication with end user devices. Range 1 could be used to communicate with end user devices as a fail-over, but I would imagine 2g/3g would cover that, at least until 5g towers are plentiful enough. Could also be that 5g is meant to replace 2g/3g/4g altogether, which would also explain the frequency overlap.
 

Krazy925

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 29, 2012
Messages
6,504
why would anyone want to live in California.
Pay, weather, concerts, schools. I could do a comparison of pay scales between my coworkers around the country compared to mine-- we make more money here.

I just wouldn't live in some parts of California.

Also remember this comment when you have to live in snow. Fuck that noise.
 

Exavior

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Messages
9,700
Don't they know they live in a sunny state, and that the sun causes cancer?

Also, imagine sitting through that hearing for FOUR hours about how 5g can cause cancer.

What proof does California have that all the things they warn about cause cancer?

I bought a bag of sand for a sandbox years ago. Bag had a label that the sand was known to cause cancer in the state of California. At this point the answer to your question is none and they don't need it to make their statement.
 

Exavior

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Messages
9,700
Without reading the spec, I would guess that freq range 1 is for linking towers together to build a network, and range 2 is for short range communication with end user devices. Range 1 could be used to communicate with end user devices as a fail-over, but I would imagine 2g/3g would cover that, at least until 5g towers are plentiful enough. Could also be that 5g is meant to replace 2g/3g/4g altogether, which would also explain the frequency overlap.

5G is about one step up from your home wifi network as far as range. They have to put radios at about every street corner if they expect a city to get 5G cover.
 

zkostik

Gawd
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
929
Mill Valley, California, joined a growing national effort to block 5G deployment. Citizens of the Bay Area town are concerned that new 5G towers could exacerbate health problems tied to RF radiation emitted from existing cell towers. Responding to the concerns, the City Council enacted an "urgency ordinance" forbidding the deployment of new 5G towers near residential areas. In spite of Federal efforts[/URL] to accelerate 5G deployment, Mill Valley isn't the first town to push against new wireless standards, and it probably won't be the last.

"What 5G does is it adds another cloud to what we refer to as 'electromagnetic smog' into an environment that is already pretty saturated," said Fairfax resident and activist Valeri Hood. "In Fairfax, what we're doing is asking our council to step up in the way councils have in the past, and just say no to 5G."

I recall seeing a letter recently that they are voting or discussing these 5G micro towers here in DC area. They are basically smaller shorter range towers that they plan to install all over the place including residential areas where previously they were not allowed to install cell towers. I'm not sure it is known or clear as to what impact these hand on health. Though it seemed these being a lower power are not very different from wifi and the list that is all over the place. Possibly having better overall covers will allow phone cell radio to run in lower output power thus putting out lower emission. Would be interesting to hear some input from a person in RF field that knows their shit.
 

OutOfPhase

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Messages
4,307
I recall seeing a letter recently that they are voting or discussing these 5G micro towers here in DC area. They are basically smaller shorter range towers that they plan to install all over the place including residential areas where previously they were not allowed to install cell towers. I'm not sure it is known or clear as to what impact these hand on health. Though it seemed these being a lower power are not very different from wifi and the list that is all over the place. Possibly having better overall covers will allow phone cell radio to run in lower output power thus putting out lower emission. Would be interesting to hear some input from a person in RF field that knows their shit.

"Tower" is a bit of a misnomer. It conjures pictures in people's heads of big dishes, radar arrays and such. Modern cell stations are pretty small antennas with a backhaul to an aggregator, just stuck on the outside of something.

Yes, the point you mention is precisely the point. More towers in a given area allow more people to be serviced at higher speeds, each station and device running at lower power levels.
 

Dayaks

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Messages
8,513
Look what’s closer to the “bad” waves like x-rays... visible light! #lightbulbscausecancer #banlightbulbs

83083989-BACD-45E8-AC60-1E242E2904F6.jpeg
 

Exavior

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Joined
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Messages
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I recall seeing a letter recently that they are voting or discussing these 5G micro towers here in DC area. They are basically smaller shorter range towers that they plan to install all over the place including residential areas where previously they were not allowed to install cell towers. I'm not sure it is known or clear as to what impact these hand on health. Though it seemed these being a lower power are not very different from wifi and the list that is all over the place. Possibly having better overall covers will allow phone cell radio to run in lower output power thus putting out lower emission. Would be interesting to hear some input from a person in RF field that knows their shit.

The problem is the 5G has to operate at a higher freq to get the speed they want. The higher the frequency the shorter the wave will go. 5G will travel about 750 feet to just under a mile depending on the version. That isn't very far. So like I said in my above post they have to plaster a grid with them to get full coverage. Was just at an event a few weeks ago where they were showing current coverage deployments, then expanded it out to show 5G and it was crazy how many towers they had to have.
 

Wiffle

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Oct 2, 2011
Messages
292
Can we please can it with the "California says everything causes cancer" crap?

Any good Californian knows prop 65 was just a way to sell stickers, cause you know millennials and all their fancy tech is totally putting a dent in the sticker market. Its hard to be a sticker manufacturer these days when teachers dole out gold stars to kids over wifi...

Someone should put a sticker on those stickers, cause I know for a fact the chemicals used to make the damn sticker cause cancer...
 

cdr_74_premium

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
1,578
Try living in a historic home where the framing studs are *actually* 2"x4," the floor shakes are *actually* 4", etc. I had to replace a couple of trim boards last summer and the only way to get them to actually match them up was to have a mill do a couple of custom cuts for me. The "modern" measurements are only a marketing tool, there's no real reason why it's that way other than that they've gotten away with it. I love my house, but it's a damn nightmare sometimes to make repairs/upgrades due to this crap.

Well, seems that people did it right back then, and the nightmare is now!
 

Geef

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
338
They must have missed the part where standing in the sun for 5 minutes gives a much bigger chance to get cancer than any cell tower does.
 
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