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ACLU Objects To License Plate Reader

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nilepez said:
Neither am I. You clearly don't get that if you can justify the current law by saying that only a criminal would care, then you can justify altering the constitution so that warrants are not needed to search a house.

Why do you think that's such a big leap. Are you doing something illegal in your house? If not, then why would you care if the police drop by a few times a year to make sure you stay honest?
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the cops dropping into your home unannounced is vastly different than the cops taking a picture of your car being driven in public which has a tag displayed in public for anyone who wants to take a picture of it, in public, once you set foot out of your house all notions of privacy are pretty much gone
 
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nobody_here said:
the cops dropping into your home unannounced is vastly different than the cops taking a picture of your car being driven in public which has a tag displayed in public for anyone who wants to take a picture of it, in public, once you set foot out of your house all notions of privacy are pretty much gone
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Only a criminal would make such arguments. So, are you illegally downloading music and/or software? Oh, I bet you've bought some stuff online and not paid the state the use taxes you owe them. I'm not sure what crime you're trying to hide, but i"m sure that once our good men and women in Blue go through your house, computer and email accounts, they'll discover what it is.

If you're innocent, then you have nothing to worry about.
 
nilepez said:
Only a criminal would make such arguments. So, are you illegally downloading music and/or software? Oh, I bet you've bought some stuff online and not paid the state the use taxes you owe them. I'm not sure what crime you're trying to hide, but i"m sure that once our good men and women in Blue go through your house, computer and email accounts, they'll discover what it is.

If you're innocent, then you have nothing to worry about.
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If you can't grasp the difference between observation and action you have no business in this thread. Despite your alarmist BS it's obvious you have no real point to make since you have to use unrelated situations to, falsely, attempt to prove your position.

Guess what? The police can LEGALLY act based on observations. The police can LEAGALLY observe your vehicle in plain view. The police can LEGALLY record their observations. The fact that you're worried about getting caught doing whatever it is you're hiding doesn't make it illegal for the police to do any of these things. If you want to hide from the poilce, don't go in public view. Until then, suck it up, they're doing EXACTLY what the police are supposed to do.
 
nilepez said:
Only a criminal would make such arguments. So, are you illegally downloading music and/or software? Oh, I bet you've bought some stuff online and not paid the state the use taxes you owe them. I'm not sure what crime you're trying to hide, but i"m sure that once our good men and women in Blue go through your house, computer and email accounts, they'll discover what it is.

If you're innocent, then you have nothing to worry about.
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i think you misread or misunderstood my post, if you read any of my past posts in this thread, you will see that i am not against these cameras being used to catch criminals and they in no way shape or form make me feel any differently or like my "privacy" has been compromised

that was exactly the point of my post you quoted, that unless you are doing something wrong, you have nothing to fear, there have been tons of cameras and such in public areas, cities, intersections, businesses, so on and so on....for years, with nobody controlling what information they gather or what they do with it, and somehow to the dismay of the tin foil hat bearers, life has gone on

i just spent two weeks in New York City and the surrounding area, how much do you want to bet i was caught on many many cameras driving and walking around....anyone would have to be a complete naive idiot to think otherwise, and did it affect me at all? no, did i care if they were following my every move or not? no

because i have nothing to hide and nothing to fear

again, the whole idea of people's privacy or civil rights being violated by using cameras in public to capture images of traffic and tags which are publically displayed on vehicles driven in public on public streets....well.....that's silly.....if you dont want to be followed or tracked or photographed then stay inside your home, dont drive

i could take my camera, park on any public road/street or any area that is not considered "private property" and use it to take as many pictures as i want of anything i want that is within range of the camera
 
sporocyst said:
I think the real problem here is this statement:

"Every plate being scanned won't be tossed away but stored for future use. Once a warrant is issued on a plate, officers can pull up the previously scanned data, using coordinates on a map to pinpoint the exact location and time of the car when it was identified."

So basically, they are keeping track of all the cars scanned, even if you have not committed a crime. They are building a database that can predict your transportation pattern. I don't know about you guys, but I don't really want the police tracking my moves.

I think if they only used the data gathered from the plates of law breakers and then trashed all the other data, this would be a great system.
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Well I don't know about you guys, but I don't wnat Sporocyst breaking the law and getting way with it.
 
This is typical of the ACLU. What amazes me is that of the tens of thousands of cases that the ACLU has been a part of in the last 87 years that only school desegregation and just a few others were actually worth fighting for.

On a lighter note: The scanners/database are almost like a "cookie."
 
more*cowbell said:
This is typical of the ACLU. What amazes me is that of the tens of thousands of cases that the ACLU has been a part of in the last 87 years that only school desegregation and just a few others were actually worth fighting for.

On a lighter note: The scanners/database are almost like a "cookie."
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People who think like this are the kind that were opposed to the ACLU fighting school segregation at the time, when it was popular to do so. The ACLU isn't about being popular, it's about thinking forward.

There's an implication correlated to the, "Only criminals would get concerned about this," argument. Can you see what it is? What's legal and what is not is defined by the government - start increasing their ability to surveil private citizens and you pave the way for them to "enhance" their definition of illegality. This is a pretty good lesson to learn when the Executive Branch can "modify" and outright break laws left and right with impunity because the public isn't being reminded about it every 90 seconds, which is what it takes to make people notice anything in this country.
 
finalgt said:
People who think like this are the kind that were opposed to the ACLU fighting school segregation at the time, when it was popular to do so. The ACLU isn't about being popular, it's about thinking forward.

There's an implication correlated to the, "Only criminals would get concerned about this," argument. Can you see what it is? What's legal and what is not is defined by the government - start increasing their ability to surveil private citizens and you pave the way for them to "enhance" their definition of illegality. This is a pretty good lesson to learn when the Executive Branch can "modify" and outright break laws left and right with impunity because the public isn't being reminded about it every 90 seconds, which is what it takes to make people notice anything in this country.
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People who think like this? Are you serious? Did you support the ACLU when they supported NAMBLA? Unbelievable.
 
Nemesis999 said:
If you can't grasp the difference between observation and action you have no business in this thread. Despite your alarmist BS it's obvious you have no real point to make since you have to use unrelated situations to, falsely, attempt to prove your position.
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Ah...so then you'd be OK with cameras and mics, all over your house, which will record everything you do and have that data stored in a database.

No action, just observation. If you're innocent, you have nothing to fear.


nobody_here said:
i think you misread or misunderstood my post, if you read any of my past posts in this thread, you will see that i am not against these cameras being used to catch criminals and they in no way shape or form make me feel any differently or like my "privacy" has been compromised
I understood the point of your post.

w1retap said:
There is help out there.
I'm not the one that's so worried about a crime that he feels it's necessary to keep a database tracking where everyone goes and when. Unlike you, I suspect, I've been robbed and burglarized, and I can promise you that this database wouldn't have helped one bit.
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finalgt said:
People who think like this are the kind that were opposed to the ACLU fighting school segregation at the time, when it was popular to do so. The ACLU isn't about being popular, it's about thinking forward.

There's an implication correlated to the, "Only criminals would get concerned about this," argument. Can you see what it is? What's legal and what is not is defined by the government - start increasing their ability to surveil private citizens and you pave the way for them to "enhance" their definition of illegality. This is a pretty good lesson to learn when the Executive Branch can "modify" and outright break laws left and right with impunity because the public isn't being reminded about it every 90 seconds, which is what it takes to make people notice anything in this country.
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dude, i'm sorry, but 99% of what the ACLU and all it's tin foil hat wearing followers jump on is BS, it's all about keeping themselves in the headlines, why are they not over in Iraq trying to protect the civil rights of Iraqi's? Iraqi's why are they not able to find anything actually worthwhile to take on? why is it always some crackhead minority individual that gets his face in the paper because of the ACLU? why try to make a headline out of a everyday occurrence?
 
nilepez said:
Ah...so then you'd be OK with cameras and mics, all over your house, which will record everything you do and have that data stored in a database.

No action, just observation. If you're innocent, you have nothing to fear.
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You obviously fail to comprehend the idea of PUBLICLY OBSERVABLE.
 
It's the paranoia. It really is a serious problem. I've seen it on Montel before. Some people don't even leave their house because they think people are after them or the government is watching them wherever they go.
 
w1retap said:
It's the paranoia. It really is a serious problem. I've seen it on Montel before. Some people don't even leave their house because they think people are after them or the SHADOW government is watching them wherever they go.
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Fixed
 
Nemesis999 said:
You obviously fail to comprehend the idea of PUBLICLY OBSERVABLE.
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thats what i dont get man, all these people who are all up in arms because someone is actually looking at the things in front of them more closely in order to potentially stop crime.....they aren't violating any privacies here, there's absolutely nothing private about driving around in public......or are there people who really believe they are driving around and nobody is looking at them? :D

i bet if someone was driving around and acting suspiciously around their neighborhood they would be great full for someone looking more closely and even taking pictures of a potential threat......what do we do now, lock up neighborhood watch members? i mean, they are not even trained, government personnel, they are just everyday joes watching and taking pictures when they feel like it.....wow, what a violation of our rights!!! :rolleyes:
 
On one hand I like the idea of catching car thieves and other baddies, but one wonders if it could ever be used to track people's routines. Remember, a car is in public, so it isn't exactly the same thing as the NSA listening in on you without a good reason. I'm a fan of civil liberties, but I'm having a hard time seeing this stand up in court, the street isn't exactly eavesdropping IMO. Hopefully the police will use it to deter crime and not any other nefarious purpose.
 
I quit my membership with the ACLU a long time ago. There was once a time, when the ACLU was an organization that helped fight for the decent people of this world, but as the years progressed, they took a downward plunge.

The thing that made me cast them aside completely was back when they were attacking an honorable organization (The Boy Scouts of America) whose motto is "Do a good turn daily," while fighting tooth and nail for an unwholesome organization (NAMBLA) whose motto was "Eight is too late."
 
Nemesis999 said:
You obviously fail to comprehend the idea of PUBLICLY OBSERVABLE.
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And what you fail to follow is that I don't give a shit if they scan plates. What I do care about is the government compiling a huge database that tracks where everyone goes and when.

And what you fail to understand is that you and all the other defenders are claiming that it shouldnt' bug you if you're not doing anything wrong.

If that is why it shouldn't bug YOU, then having your home under 24x7 surveillance shouldn't bug you, unless you commit crimes in your home.

Lemme say it again, I don't object to scanning license plates (others here do).

I can promise if they do that, at least 2 things will happen:

1. the government will use the information in ways they claim they will not
2. someone will break in to the system, and use the information to commit crimes.

The IRS can't manage to keep their computers secure, do you REALLY think that police departments and/or FBI are going to do better?

Maybe in some alternate universe, but not in this one.
 
Ockie said:
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awesome!!

@nilepez

yeah, someone will break into the system and see vehicles and tags that are already in several databases and driven in public all day long......with this they will do something they couldn't do already.....right.....

conspiracy theorists abound!
 
I love that you guys have all degenerated your arguments to red herrings and straw man bashing.

It's obvious none of you understand the intricacies of the American legal system or it's interaction with Executive or Legislative branches.

You can find I'm sure some old school house rock videos online that'll take you somewhere if you look for them kids.

Every legal battle the ACLU fights may be completely detestable by some of your standards, but what you're all failing to realize completely due to your obvious mental malnourishment is that the cases they fight may indeed have absolutely nothing to do with the legal battles they are attempting to uphold.

Everyday trivial cases go before courts which approach and attempt a variety of precendents which may or may not have drastically sweeping changes in national law interperetation.

So when you say something like "I bet you supported some NAMBLA defense" or some crap like that, you may very well have been supporting something entirely different and had no idea.

That's why there is such an organization, because as most of you chuckleheads have made completely clear the average American citizen apparently has little grasp whatsoever of our legal system unless they face it on the end of a speeding ticket or minor marijuana posession charge in college.

I have to laugh outloud at the abysmally sad ideal you all seem to perpetrate that assuming the government is given an inch of our civil liberties(which people I value greatly have shed blood to defend on many continents) it's implausible to imagine it taking a mile.

History, tells quite a different tale. Even the average American high schooler despite how lowly ranked our educational system is would laugh in your face at the idea our government hasn't abused power given to it before.

Hell, why did Alberto Gonzales resign today? TODAY? Those fuckers are dropping like flies on the hill. I hope we get Chertoff in place of him, that'd be comical.

For a bunch of supposed conservative christians these guys sure tell a shit ton of lies. Fuckin hilarious. I don't know why anyone watches sitcoms anymore. The crap that goes on in this country politically is much more entertaining. Problem is 98% of you are just to stupid or set in your ways/ideals you simply don't get the jokes!
 
Teknikallysekure said:
I love that you guys have all degenerated your arguments to red herrings and straw man bashing.

It's obvious none of you understand the intricacies of the American legal system or it's interaction with Executive or Legislative branches.

You can find I'm sure some old school house rock videos online that'll take you somewhere if you look for them kids.

Every legal battle the ACLU fights may be completely detestable by some of your standards, but what you're all failing to realize completely due to your obvious mental malnourishment is that the cases they fight may indeed have absolutely nothing to do with the legal battles they are attempting to uphold.

Everyday trivial cases go before courts which approach and attempt a variety of precendents which may or may not have drastically sweeping changes in national law interperetation.

So when you say something like "I bet you supported some NAMBLA defense" or some crap like that, you may very well have been supporting something entirely different and had no idea.

That's why there is such an organization, because as most of you chuckleheads have made completely clear the average American citizen apparently has little grasp whatsoever of our legal system unless they face it on the end of a speeding ticket or minor marijuana posession charge in college.

I have to laugh outloud at the abysmally sad ideal you all seem to perpetrate that assuming the government is given an inch of our civil liberties(which people I value greatly have shed blood to defend on many continents) it's implausible to imagine it taking a mile.

History, tells quite a different tale. Even the average American high schooler despite how lowly ranked our educational system is would laugh in your face at the idea our government hasn't abused power given to it before.

Hell, why did Alberto Gonzales resign today? TODAY? Those fuckers are dropping like flies on the hill. I hope we get Chertoff in place of him, that'd be comical.

For a bunch of supposed conservative christians these guys sure tell a shit ton of lies. Fuckin hilarious. I don't know why anyone watches sitcoms anymore. The crap that goes on in this country politically is much more entertaining. Problem is 98% of you are just to stupid or set in your ways/ideals you simply don't get the jokes!
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Your post make me laugh all the time.
So if you are so unhappy why are you still living in America?
 
I often wonder, why the people who like to give all their tax money to the government so that they can be watched more don't move from America to Russia or China.

Why I should leave my country because all you people want it to be more like those countries I have yet to understand.

It seems like you guys would really be happier somewhere like Russia though. You just pay a lot more taxes and the police will protect you from all the criminals. It's a great deal they have there it's working out pretty well for them. Very safe place.
 
Always glad to offer a laugh though.

;)

Despite how serious I am, I also find the whole thing pretty comical. I don't really think I have much say in how fucked up this country gets. I'm just enjoying the ride.
 
Teknikallysekure,

I consider myself a conservative Christian and I find your characterization somewhat off the mark. I too, am worried about the continual consolidation of executive power and the gradual wearing away of civil liberties. In the NSA spying cases and other areas I find myself actually agreeing on some issues (REAL ID also) with the ACLU.

Yes, a conservative Christian actually agreeing with an organization which had ties with communism at its founding! Who'd a thunk it? :)

The problem with the ACLU is that they are so far to the left on many social issues (such as listed previously in this thread) that many Christians have a very bad aftertaste in their mouth when they do get something right. It becomes muscle reflex and no, it isn't healthy.

That's why I had no issues in sending my money to the EFF instead of the ACLU. If groups like the ACLU found better things to do than attack Christians constantly I think they'd actually expand their membership roster quite a bit.

There are a lot of Christian libertarians and old school conservatives that are very worried about the current administration (and for that matter the complete cowardice of the Congress to put a stop to the abuses). Hannity and company constantly keep us from being interviewed. There's nothing the current batch of neocons fear more than old school conservatives who aren't afraid to dissent.

Please keep that in mind before lumping us all in together in one basket.

Thank you.

P.S. Remember kiddies, groupthink is bland. :)
 
SonOfMore said:
Teknikallysekure,

I consider myself a conservative Christian and I find your characterization somewhat off the mark. I too, am worried about the continual consolidation of executive power and the gradual wearing away of civil liberties. In the NSA spying cases and other areas I find myself actually agreeing on some issues (REAL ID also) with the ACLU.

Yes, a conservative Christian actually agreeing with an organization which had ties with communism at its founding! Who'd a thunk it? :)

The problem with the ACLU is that they are so far to the left on many social issues (such as listed previously in this thread) that many Christians have a very bad aftertaste in their mouth when they do get something right. It becomes muscle reflex and no, it isn't healthy.

That's why I had no issues in sending my money to the EFF instead of the ACLU. If groups like the ACLU found better things to do than attack Christians constantly I think they'd actually expand their membership roster quite a bit.

There are a lot of Christian libertarians and old school conservatives that are very worried about the current administration (and for that matter the complete cowardice of the Congress to put a stop to the abuses). Hannity and company constantly keep us from being interviewed. There's nothing the current batch of neocons fear more than old school conservatives who aren't afraid to dissent.

Please keep that in mind before lumping us all in together in one basket.

Thank you.

P.S. Remember kiddies, groupthink is bland. :)
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My apologies. I was for the sake of quick argument and argumentive reasoning in what was a pretty 2 way situation here was making much broader generalizations had I known more scales of grey were in the periphery.

I maintain friendships and good aquintance with quite a variety of people from the most bleeding heart liberal to the most authoritarian conservative career Army GI's. I honestly couldn't tell you where I fall into the pie as far as labeled political ideals go, but it's definitely not in the realm of those I've been arguing here.

I commend your open mindedness, and your willingness to consider other's viewpoints. I am always glad to see examples of people who are an example for their fellows. Although not a Christian I do respect the belief.

I think about 9/10ths of the stuff the ACLU supports and fights for is reprehensible, but it's the 1/10th they get right that benefits everyone. Least that's my take on it.

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819.

:)

There's another I believe of Franklin stating that no matter how many guilty men suffer the hand of the law, it's all for naught if one innocent man is unjustly subjected to it in a free nation. It's either him or Adam's or Paine. I can't be bothered to figure that out right now it's Steelhead season around here and work has been keeping from fishing all day.

Hahaha.

I love Bill Oreilly, he's hilarious too. If it weren't for Bill Oreilly there'd be no Stephen Colbert!
 
SonOfMore said:
Teknikallysekure,

I consider myself a conservative Christian and I find your characterization somewhat off the mark. I too, am worried about the continual consolidation of executive power and the gradual wearing away of civil liberties. In the NSA spying cases and other areas I find myself actually agreeing on some issues (REAL ID also) with the ACLU.

Yes, a conservative Christian actually agreeing with an organization which had ties with communism at its founding! Who'd a thunk it? :)

The problem with the ACLU is that they are so far to the left on many social issues (such as listed previously in this thread) that many Christians have a very bad aftertaste in their mouth when they do get something right. It becomes muscle reflex and no, it isn't healthy.

That's why I had no issues in sending my money to the EFF instead of the ACLU. If groups like the ACLU found better things to do than attack Christians constantly I think they'd actually expand their membership roster quite a bit.

There are a lot of Christian libertarians and old school conservatives that are very worried about the current administration (and for that matter the complete cowardice of the Congress to put a stop to the abuses). Hannity and company constantly keep us from being interviewed. There's nothing the current batch of neocons fear more than old school conservatives who aren't afraid to dissent.

Please keep that in mind before lumping us all in together in one basket.

Thank you.

P.S. Remember kiddies, groupthink is bland. :)
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please do dissent. just watch out for being called america haters because you find a difference of opinion with the current administrations policies. i can only image the shit that is literally going to pour out after these clown leave.
 
Off-topic a bit, but if there are any old-school conservatives or libertarians in the house (or perhaps some open-minded liberals) you might want to check out this site:

www.amconmag.com

They plublish all the conservative/libertarian thought that some of the War Party/Groupthinking GOP'ers won't.

BTW, in addition to being an America hater, you're probably a turrist', antisemite, racist and vegetarian. So there! :)

Ayn Rand once said that the smallest minority of all is the individual.

No individual liberty, no freedom.
 
im fine with a license plate reader. but its ok for the aclu to fight it. it makes sure there is a balance between the rights of the individual and the safety of the society.

it will probably make things easier for law enforcers. but it will also make things harder for privacy. maybe a senator wants to go to his boyfriend's house. news paper columnist wants to meet with a source?

how many people would be comfortable with this same logic being applied to computer activites? law enforcement, your enemies, politicle grudges all being able to identify every website you go to? there is a balance to be had.
 
Ocean said:
how many people would be comfortable with this same logic being applied to computer activites? law enforcement, your enemies, politicle grudges all being able to identify every website you go to? there is a balance to be had.
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you think they dont already do this? of course they do! and law abiding citizens continue to do what they want day in day out without govt intervention
 
nobody_here said:
you think they dont already do this? of course they do! and law abiding citizens continue to do what they want day in day out without govt intervention
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Technically from a legal standpoint, despite the fact that they are doing this it's illegal and if you pay close attention to what's happening in the courts approaching this subject as we speak the only thing standing in the face of the just rule of law is absolute cronyism on behalf of appointed politicians in the dept of Justice.

Of course, Gonzales did resign yesterday as a result of pressure from this.

You can't simply lie to congress, and then repeatedly claim you have "no recollection" of some of your most career defining decisions. He drug the face of the DOJ through the mud, and now that he's gone whoever followed him is going to have to have balls of steel to attempt to defend what I think equates a hostile take over of the DOJ by the executive branch.

The companies themselves have wriggled like worms through shit to try and get out of trouble for providing info to the gov without FISA warrants, but someone we've not even begun to hear the end of this.

If our politicians had any integrity we'd be seeing a review shortly of the entire domestic spying issue. Doubt it though.
 
Teknikallysekure said:
Of course, Gonzales did resign yesterday as a result of pressure from this.
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He never wanted the job in the first place. It was a publicity/diversity stunt by Bush to have a nice diverse cabinet and elected and appointed positions.
 
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