ACLU Objects To License Plate Reader

[officermartinez]

Technically from a legal standpoint, despite the fact that they are doing this it's illegal and if you pay close attention to what's happening in the courts approaching this subject as we speak the only thing standing in the face of the just rule of law is absolute cronyism on behalf of appointed politicians in the dept of Justice.

?

Sir, can you provide LEGAL documentation to support your claim. I cannot speak for the other 49 states, but TEXAS, where I live, we have had License Plate Readers for a few years now. Nothing about them "reports Mr. Johnson being the driveway of Mrs. Smiths house". I have worked with this system first hand and in Texas, here is what happens.

Example:

A man shoots all 4 members of his family. He is seen by his neighbor running to his pickup truck and leaving the scene. His neighbor looks at the license plate of 666XXX as he flee's the scene. His neighbor, who heard the shots, goes to investigate. The neighbor see's 4 dead people. The neighbor calls the cops. The cops get on scene and gather the information from the neighbor. The neighbor reported to the cops that the man left the scene in his pickup truck and he remembers the plate of 666XXX. The cops then enter the pickup truck (along with the plate info) into a database known as TCIC/NCIC as a suspect vehicle wanted in possible connection to a multiple homicide. That license plate infomation is now accessible by Texas Police Departments (as well as nationwide). A vehicle equipped with a License Plate scanner passes the pickup truck on the highway. The scanner equipped vehicle receives a HIT NOTIFICATION of a License Plate that matches a TCIC/NCIC hit for a suspect vehicle wanted in connection with a homicide. Local departments dispatch any availible units to intercept the pickup truck. Once an officer has that vehicle on view, they can conduct a FELONY TRAFFIC STOP.

Now, where did you EVER get that information about the whole conspiracy of US vs THEM and BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU. The scanner only reads license plates that have been entered as ACTIVE SUSPECT VEHICLES / STOLEN VEHICLES / AMBER ALERT VEHICLES. If you read up on your local rights as a driver of an automobile, you will see that no where does it state that it's YOUR RIGHT to drive. I can assure you, you will not find any LEGAL information stating that as a human being, it is YOUR RIGHT to drive, when and wherever you choose. To drive on public roads, this is a PRIVELEDGE that is granted to you, by the licensing state if certain criteria have been met. In Texas, that means that you MUST be of age to possess a valid drivers license, must have passed the written AND driving portion of your drivers exam and you must be physically able to drive a vehicle (factors range from vision, to being able to reach the gas and break petals, to being mentally capable of operating a motor vehicle and so on..)

 

[SonOfMore]

I don't think it is so much a matter of the current usage as being "big brother", but rather, if we as a society start to think it is normal to have thousands of cameras (see London) in every city, we'll become a society of fear. If we're to be honest, we'd have to look at why there are record numbers of Americans in jail. There are deep problems out there, one of the most pressing is the lack of Constitutional instruction in the schools. A citizen who doesn't know what rights and liberty means will most likely have neither for very long if his neighbors are equally ignorant. Most police officers I've met have been decent people. The question is, how can they properly enforce the law if they are asked to do something that is unconstitutional? A lot of technology is blurring these lines.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

He never wanted the job in the first place. It was a publicity/diversity stunt by Bush to have a nice diverse cabinet and elected and appointed positions.

You sir I believe are 100% correct with this, and I'll admit I think the guy got sucker punched with the responsibility that got tossed on him and wasn't at all prepared for the deluge he faced. I think his testimonies show that pretty clearly he was in pretty murky water.

I think the result showed a great level of faith towards the president, however the job he took was leading the DOJ, and sometimes the Attorney General has to tell the president no. That shows an even greater integrity and respect for your position. I think actions at this level of government absolutely need to conflict with eachother in order to promote our way of life. These jobs aren't all necessary meant to move like greased wheels, in many cases their creation is entirely dependant on the conflict they create between eachother which prevents to much power to go to any one place. If everyone just let's the boss do whatever he wants, when the time comes and the boss makes a wrong call everyone suffers. Obviously that analogy suffers some inconsistencies but you can see what I'm angling at.

This is a little off the topic, but at the same time it's relevant to the thread. I'll give you one thing w1retap, you're by far the most intelligent opponent I ever face in these arguments and you obviously pay close attention to politics. Whether you believe it or not I enjoy our occasional parlay. It's entertaining.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

?

Sir, can you provide LEGAL documentation to support your claim. I cannot speak for the other 49 states, but TEXAS, where I live, we have had License Plate Readers for a few years now. Nothing about them "reports Mr. Johnson being the driveway of Mrs. Smiths house". I have worked with this system first hand and in Texas, here is what happens.

Example:

A man shoots all 4 members of his family. He is seen by his neighbor running to his pickup truck and leaving the scene. His neighbor looks at the license plate of 666XXX as he flee's the scene. His neighbor, who heard the shots, goes to investigate. The neighbor see's 4 dead people. The neighbor calls the cops. The cops get on scene and gather the information from the neighbor. The neighbor reported to the cops that the man left the scene in his pickup truck and he remembers the plate of 666XXX. The cops then enter the pickup truck (along with the plate info) into a database known as TCIC/NCIC as a suspect vehicle wanted in possible connection to a multiple homicide. That license plate infomation is now accessible by Texas Police Departments (as well as nationwide). A vehicle equipped with a License Plate scanner passes the pickup truck on the highway. The scanner equipped vehicle receives a HIT NOTIFICATION of a License Plate that matches a TCIC/NCIC hit for a suspect vehicle wanted in connection with a homicide. Local departments dispatch any availible units to intercept the pickup truck. Once an officer has that vehicle on view, they can conduct a FELONY TRAFFIC STOP.

Now, where did you EVER get that information about the whole conspiracy of US vs THEM and BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU. The scanner only reads license plates that have been entered as ACTIVE SUSPECT VEHICLES / STOLEN VEHICLES / AMBER ALERT VEHICLES. If you read up on your local rights as a driver of an automobile, you will see that no where does it state that it's YOUR RIGHT to drive. I can assure you, you will not find any LEGAL information stating that as a human being, it is YOUR RIGHT to drive, when and wherever you choose. To drive on public roads, this is a PRIVELEDGE that is granted to you, by the licensing state if certain criteria have been met. In Texas, that means that you MUST be of age to possess a valid drivers license, must have passed the written AND driving portion of your drivers exam and you must be physically able to drive a vehicle (factors range from vision, to being able to reach the gas and break petals, to being mentally capable of operating a motor vehicle and so on..)

My entire post here was in response to the mention of wiretapping. I honestly can't fathom how you wouldn't understand the context of that if you'd read more of my post than just that particular sentence.

If you think I don't recognize the capability for good use of this system you definitely must think I'm some kind of idiot. I'll try not to take it personally though.

However, you're being primarily focused on only the good uses with a completely blatant disregard for the much higher damage that can be caused by the negative or abusive use of such a system is... well it's something special chuck.

Love Texas btw, might move back there someday for a spell if ever get this love of snow out of my system.

 

[INOX]

I don't see the need to blanket people as stupid or unable to accept a joke, or to call me/them "kiddies" for that matter. I'm not a lawyer, but I am a professional...an aeronautical engineer with a six year degree. Sure that’s not a qualifier to understand politics but you don't have to be a law student to understand right and wrong. The mention of NAMBLA makes a compelling argument. The ACLU supporting NAMBLA was simply wrong and it did more harm than good---regardless if their intention was to maintain the law.

 

[officermartinez]

My entire post here was in response to the mention of wiretapping. I honestly can't fathom how you wouldn't understand the context of that if you'd read more of my post than just that particular sentence.

If you think I don't recognize the capability for good use of this system you definitely must think I'm some kind of idiot. I'll try not to take it personally though.

However, you're being primarily focused on only the good uses with a completely blatant disregard for the much higher damage that can be caused by the negative or abusive use of such a system is... well it's something special chuck.

Love Texas btw, might move back there someday for a spell if ever get this love of snow out of my system.

Not at all. I don't think your an idiot. I guess I just read too much into your post. It was certainly NOT a personal attack nor did I mean it to be. Re-reading this WHOLE thread I understand the overall picture, that is being painted. Again, I just I focused on just one aspect of this entire conversation. So, forgive me, if it applies.. I will say, technology is here and the door swings both ways. Not all citizens are GOOD. The EXACT same can be said for the ones who make the laws and the ones that enforce them. But, I do my best to not let the actions of few bad people destroy the hard work and efforts of the many good people on both sides of the fence.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

Not at all. I don't think your an idiot. I guess I just read too much into your post. It was certainly NOT a personal attack nor did I mean it to be. Re-reading this WHOLE thread I understand the overall picture, that is being painted. Again, I just I focused on just one aspect of this entire conversation. So, forgive me, if it applies.. I will say, technology is here and the door swings both ways. Not all citizens are GOOD. The EXACT same can be said for the ones who make the laws and the ones that enforce them. But, I do my best to not let the actions of few bad people destroy the hard work and efforts of the many good people on both sides of the fence.

Well said.

 

[nilepez]

You obviously fail to comprehend the idea of PUBLICLY OBSERVABLE.

And you fail to comprehend database.

 

[nilepez]

And you fail to comprehend database.

crap...I thought this was a reply to something another post...not sure why the new posts didn't start with new posts

 

[nilepez]

awesome!!

@nilepez

yeah, someone will break into the system and see vehicles and tags that are already in several databases and driven in public all day long......with this they will do something they couldn't do already.....right.....

conspiracy theorists abound!

No, they'll see a database with plate numbers that show when and where those plate numbers are. Those will be tied to another database which shows who owns those cars and where they live.

Bottom line is there's NO TANGIBLE BENEFIT to storing these records on EVERY person. It's one thing to use the technology to catch people with outstanding warrants, or someone who is wanted for questioning. It's quite another when they're storing tracking information on every citizen in perpetuity.

 

[Nasty_Savage]

If I do not wish to be located or identified, that is my right. It is a right to privacy:

“ The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Get the fat cops off their ass and look for the outstanding warrants and do POLICE WORK. This scanner in my opinion is an 'unreasonable search' for ME. I have done nothing wrong, therefore do not deserve to the privacy of my movements recorded. And its not about having 'nothing to hide'. Its about I do not trust YOU with that information. Its none of yours or anyones business where I go or what I do. Period.

 

[w1retap]

There is no right to privacy in public places.

 

[dj_taboo]

AZ coulda used a plate reader when some Coyotes stole my 4x4 last year and made a run for the border.

 

[nobody_here]

No, they'll see a database with plate numbers that show when and where those plate numbers are. Those will be tied to another database which shows who owns those cars and where they live.

Bottom line is there's NO TANGIBLE BENEFIT to storing these records on EVERY person. It's one thing to use the technology to catch people with outstanding warrants, or someone who is wanted for questioning. It's quite another when they're storing tracking information on every citizen in perpetuity.

how thickheaded are people?

they already have all of this information, the cameras simply make it easier for the authorities to do their job, it will batch more criminals, so they see that you go to work at 9am, grab lunch at 12pm, and leave for home at 5pm......who cares? they could already find this out if they wanted to, no harm done

jesus christ man, when osamas mindless underlings drive a nuke into a city and kill over 100,000 people wont you be proud of the fact they dont have a picture of your friggin plate!!

 

[Teknikallysekure]

how thickheaded are people?

they already have all of this information, the cameras simply make it easier for the authorities to do their job, it will batch more criminals, so they see that you go to work at 9am, grab lunch at 12pm, and leave for home at 5pm......who cares? they could already find this out if they wanted to, no harm done

jesus christ man, when osamas mindless underlings drive a nuke into a city and kill over 100,000 people wont you be proud of the fact they dont have a picture of your friggin plate!!

Hahaha, don't talk about how thickheaded people are and then use your example of someone smuggling a nuke into any city.

Seriously?

Freedom is inherently dangerous. Things happen. If you're scared of freedom, go for something else.

The idea of privacy not existing outside my front door is a bit of a consequitor(sp?) isn't it? There's a huge difference between the ability police have to know where and when people are vs. instantly knowing where everyone in a vehicle is.

 

[nobody_here]

Hahaha, don't talk about how thickheaded people are and then use your example of someone smuggling a nuke into any city.

Seriously?

Freedom is inherently dangerous. Things happen. If you're scared of freedom, go for something else.

The idea of privacy not existing outside my front door is a bit of a consequitor(sp?) isn't it? There's a huge difference between the ability police have to know where and when people are vs. instantly knowing where everyone in a vehicle is.

no, not really, if you think they cant and dont already have and use that technology then you are as naive as you sound, do you have a GPS unit or a cell phone? if so they already know where you are if they want, they could do it without but that just makes it easier

like someone else said, once you go out in the public eye, all notions of privacy are gone; any feeling you have of privacy in public is a facade, its a hollow belief

seriously, as long as it isnt abused, i dont care if the govt knows where i am every second of the day as long, as they arent mounting cameras in my home, if it means we are safer in general its fine with me, i have nothing to hide and nothing to fear

that being said i am actually against big govt, but the fact is they arent going away and there are far more important things the ACLU could take up, this is a waste of time as it will only benefit lawless people, but then again, they are known for defending rapists, murderers, and gate crashing drug smuggling illegal aliens

 

[Ockie]

Hahaha, don't talk about how thickheaded people are and then use your example of someone smuggling a nuke into any city.

This is what people said when someone mentioned that someone could use fertilizer as an explosive or when someone mentioned that a plane could be used as an attack.

IMO you should never underestimate your enemy. Our border has a lot of stuff coming through, some of it on foot with careless ease, don't think that something bad can't get over here.

FWIW, police already keep your address on file, so a plate scan to address check (using todays conventional methods) is already possible. So it's not like they won't know where you work, where you live, and what you drive, it's already public knowledge. I believe in Michigan you can checkup even on your own... all you need is a plate number and you can get the owners home address.

BTW, where is Steve? Did he turn over or something? So quiet latley....

 

[w1retap]

Hahaha, don't talk about how thickheaded people are and then use your example of someone smuggling a nuke into any city.

Seriously?

Arg.. you obviously have no idea.

Living on the Detroit River within a few hundred yards from Canada, I can see how lax the border is. Imagine a seive, then multiply that by a few thousand miles. I can kayak to Canada in 15 minutes, and nobody even confronts me. People boat back and forth all the time, some not even being stopped to show ID's and birth records.

Now it would be super easy for someone with evil intentions (which there are millions worldwide) to bring harm to the most powerful nation in the world. Suitcase nukes were developed in the 60's and 70's. Some people I work with even helped develop them when they worked under the US Gov't. A suitcase 18x12x5 can bring 20x as much devistation to a city as 9/11 did. It isn't something to be taken lightly, and it is a very real threat.

How did we get talking about border security? This thread sux.

 

[eggrock]

you think they dont already do this? of course they do! and law abiding citizens continue to do what they want day in day out without govt intervention

Dunno about that. I'm law abiding but I also read a lot of subject matter on the internet. One could draw some nasty inferences about the kind of person I am by some of the sites I've been to. You'd most likely be dead wrong but it offers the potential of "probable cause" and subsequent wiretapping, harassment etc. by the authorities.

I guess the same could happen with plate readers but I'm still for it as long as that information stays internal to the authorities. We need tigher laws and better oversight and processes for the handling and distribution of material like this. Even (for example) things like the DMV selling some of your information to telemarketers, or at least making it freely available to them. Dunno how common that is now but it used to happen and IMO that causes conflicts of interest at minimum.

 

[Ockie]

Arg.. you obviously have no idea.

Living on the Detroit River within a few hundred yards from Canada, I can see how lax the border is. Imagine a seive, then multiply that by a few thousand miles. I can kayak to Canada in 15 minutes, and nobody even confronts me. People boat back and forth all the time, some not even being stopped to show ID's and birth records.

Now it would be super easy for someone with evil intentions (which there are millions worldwide) to bring harm to the most powerful nation in the world. Suitcase nukes were developed in the 60's and 70's. Some people I work with even helped develop them when they worked under the US Gov't. A suitcase 18x12x5 can bring 20x as much devistation to a city as 9/11 did. It isn't something to be taken lightly, and it is a very real threat.

How did we get talking about border security? This thread sux.

When I was at the Blue Water Bridge, I saw people jet-skiing back and forth, as if it was an island or something.

Border security is really a joke, and this is into Canada right next to one of the largest air bases who are supposedly patrolling the area, Southern border has even less security.


Where did steve go, no new content?!

 

[Teknikallysekure]

This is what people said when someone mentioned that someone could use fertilizer as an explosive or when someone mentioned that a plane could be used as an attack.

IMO you should never underestimate your enemy. Our border has a lot of stuff coming through, some of it on foot with careless ease, don't think that something bad can't get over here.

FWIW, police already keep your address on file, so a plate scan to address check (using todays conventional methods) is already possible. So it's not like they won't know where you work, where you live, and what you drive, it's already public knowledge. I believe in Michigan you can checkup even on your own... all you need is a plate number and you can get the owners home address.

BTW, where is Steve? Did he turn over or something? So quiet latley....

I don't think anyone said this ever about fertilizer or airplanes... in fact Tom Clancy in debt of honor wrote about planes being filled with fuel and used in attacks long before 9/11.

You guys are talking about Thermo Nuclear weapons, being smuggled into our country by cave dwellers.

:|

Dudes that use AK-47s and RPG's and SVD's....

I'm Naive? Hell we've already proven even Iraq wasn't on the verge of any Nuclear breakthroughs. Will all those billions of dollars and years of research...You guys must live in some alternate reality of the world that's like a neverending episode of 24 or something.

Terrorists can plan all they want, but strike me down if I'm not to concerned about them getting ahold of nukes anytime soon.

Iran may be a different story, but this is such a side argument it's fucking ridiculous.

Fact is if terrorists were bringing nukes into the country you can be damned sure they'd be driving legally registered cars.

Sooo, what?

 

[w1retap]

They wouldn't make the weapons themselves, rofl. They'll buy them from a country that has them and has a vendetta against America. I can think of a few.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

Dunno about that. I'm law abiding but I also read a lot of subject matter on the internet. One could draw some nasty inferences about the kind of person I am by some of the sites I've been to. You'd most likely be dead wrong but it offers the potential of "probable cause" and subsequent wiretapping, harassment etc. by the authorities.

I guess the same could happen with plate readers but I'm still for it as long as that information stays internal to the authorities. We need tigher laws and better oversight and processes for the handling and distribution of material like this. Even (for example) things like the DMV selling some of your information to telemarketers, or at least making it freely available to them. Dunno how common that is now but it used to happen and IMO that causes conflicts of interest at minimum.

Yeah, I'm overly certain that despite being a completely law abiding citizen with no ill intent or will my tastes and past times alone qualify me for a considerable monitoring ration by the ole' fed.

So's just about anyone who spends a good amount of time learning anything our analysts determine is questionable.

That's the damned problem. Maybe if all I read were Mary Poppins books from the library I'd feel better about this.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

They wouldn't make the weapons themselves, rofl. They'll buy them from a country that has them and has a vendetta against America. I can think of a few.

Name 'em.

Every ounce of weapons grade material moving in and out of both North Korea and Iran are being closely monitored... you know this as well as I do.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

no, not really, if you think they cant and dont already have and use that technology then you are as naive as you sound, do you have a GPS unit or a cell phone? if so they already know where you are if they want, they could do it without but that just makes it easier

like someone else said, once you go out in the public eye, all notions of privacy are gone; any feeling you have of privacy in public is a facade, its a hollow belief

seriously, as long as it isnt abused, i dont care if the govt knows where i am every second of the day as long, as they arent mounting cameras in my home, if it means we are safer in general its fine with me, i have nothing to hide and nothing to fear

that being said i am actually against big govt, but the fact is they arent going away and there are far more important things the ACLU could take up, this is a waste of time as it will only benefit lawless people, but then again, they are known for defending rapists, murderers, and gate crashing drug smuggling illegal aliens

Except, if they want to know where I am through GPS, or Cell triangulation they have to make a big nasty papertrial explaining why they did it... not just tap into a multi agency database that's loosely controlled because of how many people are accessing it...

Not only that, but I have the right to sue them and the company that gave up my info if it's unjust, or unwarranted and I find out about it... this is completely different.

I'd like you to consider the difference between the two.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

They wouldn't make the weapons themselves, rofl. They'll buy them from a country that has them and has a vendetta against America. I can think of a few.

Besides, how many countries with Vendetta's against us right now are really stupid enough to try and do this shit without getting every airstation in every country surrounding them full of our troops in less then 4 days time?

As I understand it during my travels people generally consider America(despite any dislike if they have it) a bloodthirsty nation just waiting for another war. Tell me you haven't heard that...

I don't honestly think people would commit to something as immense as that so lightly like you guys are imagining.

 

[w1retap]

Pakistan, Russia, N. Korea, Iran, etc. No the countries cannot be monitored for under the table transactions. Our technology and spies are good, but not that good. Something the size of a suitcase can go out in anything or anyone can carry it. Nobody is going to tell what it is, even if it was being carried by the middle aged white male sitting next to them on the subway train. There aren't enough (and good enough) radiological monitoring devices around our borders and ports. If properly shielded, a good detector won't even see it go through. It would pass as a minor blip in the background radiation count.

 

[w1retap]

Besides, how many countries with Vendetta's against us right now are really stupid enough to try and do this shit without getting every airstation in every country surrounding them full of our troops in less then 4 days time?

As I understand it during my travels people generally consider America(despite any dislike if they have it) a bloodthirsty nation just waiting for another war. Tell me you haven't heard that...

I don't honestly think people would commit to something as immense as that so lightly like you guys are imagining.

Some world leaders don't care. Terrorists don't care about their actions either.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

Russia is the only one I'm willing to succeed. Pakistan has done a great bit in helping fight the war on terror despite having so many supporters in it's borders the Pakistani government, those in control of the technology are probably one of our best allies in our fight on terrorism.

As far as the others are concerned I'm not so sure... you'd have to ship it internationally obviously... and our Ports while still unacceptable face a degree of scrutiny that's rising every day.

How do you ship Weapons grade plutonium without someone noticing... then when you get it there you're gonna need a fucking gangster and a half to put it to work... I just don't see it happening...

Dirty bomb, sure I wouldn't expect that to even cross a border but a suitcase nuke? Dude you're watchin to many movies.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

Only reason I'd suggest Russia is how sloppily they've monitored their goods in the past, they're the only leak historically despite our couple of bombs off the coast of the atlantic the Navy never recovered.

Even so, I think they're hanging onto their inventory pretty tightly right now....

ugh how did we get to talking about suitcase nukes anyway?

Noone's ever even pulled this shit off in the history of man... it's far fetched and more of a sci fi movie than an action one.

The smallest we ever managed was artillery, and that was a device I don't expect anybody replicating anytime soon.

 

[w1retap]

Russia is the only one I'm willing to succeed. Pakistan has done a great bit in helping fight the war on terror despite having so many supporters in it's borders the Pakistani government, those in control of the technology are probably one of our best allies in our fight on terrorism.

As far as the others are concerned I'm not so sure... you'd have to ship it internationally obviously... and our Ports while still unacceptable face a degree of scrutiny that's rising every day.

How do you ship Weapons grade plutonium without someone noticing... then when you get it there you're gonna need a fucking gangster and a half to put it to work... I just don't see it happening...

Dirty bomb, sure I wouldn't expect that to even cross a border but a suitcase nuke? Dude you're watchin to many movies.

You obviously don't know much about radiation. A dirty bomb would be so easily detectable even with the shittiest radiation detecting devices. Also if it went off, there would only be deaths in the immediate vicinity, and it would be easy to trace all the hot particles to clean them up. A suitcase nuke would be much harder to detect by means of radiological scans at the border, and it would be devastating if detonated. If you think suitcase nukes are "lol just in movies", you have no idea. There were dozens upon dozens made by the US and Soviets. We'll leave it at that if you are going to be ignorant to historical data.

But it isn't the leaders of countries who necessarily attack or 'approve' such attacks. Anyone that is corrupt in a high enough position would gladly sell materials to terrorists, or even sell whole in tact weaponry to terrorist to use against the US. Iran is doing it right now with conventional weaponry. Nobody would willingly say even if they did sell terrorists nuclear technology, if they haven't already. All it takes is a proper (fairly easily obtainable) material and a small group of engineers to make a functioning device. The only downfall is, any radiological material can be traced back to wherever it came from. Thus even corrupt organizations ran by governments are hesitant to do anything.

 

[BobSutan]

If I learned anything from this thread it's that the next constitutional amendment needs to specify a citizen's right to privacy.