ACLU Objects To License Plate Reader

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Nemesis999 said:
---NEWEST HEADLINE---

ACLU Objects To <Insert method of catching criminals> :rolleyes:

American
Criminal's
Lawyers
Union?

Seems like all the ACLU ever does it attempt to head off innovations that only affect those breaking the law.
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Yes, so that the rest of us who AREN'T CRIMINALS don't have to suffer living as if we are or be circumvented to the same systems and institutions.

Why should I be forced to be investigated if I'm not a criminal?

What's so wrong with more rights? Seriously? You're all full of vitriol with no intelligent direction to unleash it.
 
theDreamer said:
What exactly are we giving up here? Answer me that.
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The ability to drive down the street without being investigated to determine whether or not I'm a criminal.

The ability to travel freely, without a large database full of times dates and locations of where I've been.

Have you ever heard the term, locks are to keep innocent people from turning into thieves? Consider that not having this technology is to keep innocent people from engaging in activities that greatly devalue our liberties.

Our criminal issue is a social issue I believe, one that's not easily going to be legislated away by pouring more money into surveillance.

Hell, look at the UK, they've got more surveillance than anywhere in the world. While murders and gun crime have toppled off, home invasions and assaults have gone through the roof.

This isn't going to protect any of you people that are scared of criminals, and it's a waste of ALL of our money, in exchange for less liberty. Is that really so complicated?
 
Azhar said:
Disclaimer: I only read 2 pages of this topic. What I say has nothing to do with what anyone else says above me :p

The way I see it, the plate hunter can be beneficial. Look at what happened in Minnesota a couple weeks ago. Imagine the plate hunter being useful in making surveys and decisions. Not just bridges, but decisions like, making a road wider because too many cars travel it. Building more parking garage in an area because too many cars go there. Enforcing carpooling because theres too many cars on the road. Deciding what roads to salt first in the winter to reduce accidents. I can go on and on.

Think of the bigger picture, not just how the police functions.

The Plate Hunter can be good for us if the right people share information and make use of it.

They don't even have to look up who the car belongs to. They can just use it as a reference, like "Oh don't count this plat number. We already included him on its last pass"

Call me an optimist. I'm just a little tired of hearing people complaining about the smallest things in the world. Don't want to get caught doing something? Well don't break the law!
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I appreciate this approach. I'd go for this if we had the rights to a translucent free government. Unfortunately our government has proven on many occasions that it's not translucent, nor is it to be trusted with secrecy.

Hence, this ideology is overly optomistic I believe atleast according to historical record.
 
Teknikallysekure said:
The ability to drive down the street without being investigated to determine whether or not I'm a criminal.

The ability to travel freely, without a large database full of times dates and locations of where I've been.

Have you ever heard the term, locks are to keep innocent people from turning into thieves? Consider that not having this technology is to keep innocent people from engaging in activities that greatly devalue our liberties.

Our criminal issue is a social issue I believe, one that's not easily going to be legislated away by pouring more money into surveillance.

Hell, look at the UK, they've got more surveillance than anywhere in the world. While murders and gun crime have toppled off, home invasions and assaults have gone through the roof.

This isn't going to protect any of you people that are scared of criminals, and it's a waste of ALL of our money, in exchange for less liberty. Is that really so complicated?
Click to expand...

So far you have given up nothing then. Cops sit on the side of the road inputing license plates in all day and look up info on cars, now we just have a computer doing it (makes it quicker).

So what does the UK have to do with this, they are one nation that has increased surveillance and had X reaction. If we in this country did the same thing what are the odds we get the exact same reaction? Very small.

So, we have not lost less liberty, and I will agree it is not that complicated.
 
theDreamer said:
So far you have given up nothing then. Cops sit on the side of the road inputing license plates in all day and look up info on cars, now we just have a computer doing it (makes it quicker).

So what does the UK have to do with this, they are one nation that has increased surveillance and had X reaction. If we in this country did the same thing what are the odds we get the exact same reaction? Very small.

So, we have not lost less liberty, and I will agree it is not that complicated.
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Yeah there's no difference in a police officer running 1 single plate at a time, and a machine that can literally scan every single car that passes through a given area or through randomly changing sections of freeway.

That's totally myopic. The UK is an obvious example, because they're the only place so far who's given up their right to travel freely without being observed.

As it currently stands, a police officer does not run my plate unless he has SUSPICION or a REASON to do it.

With this machine, no suspicion or reason exists, I am simply searched and investigated for absolutely no reason at all, no human interaction necessary.
 
Ockie said:
Wow, think you can try to label and insult some more? :rolleyes: You need to get a life.
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I didn't label or insult anyone what've I said that's insulting? We've had other discussions which lead to that where you described this exact scenario to me word for word. You said you'd lived in other countries that were much less tolerant of rights and freedom and that what we considered rights or freedoms weren't necessarily so.

Is that really so unfair?

You have to realize Ockie, that big freedoms aren't lost, small ones are over and over and over again until none of the big ones remain. This is why I maintain and will fight every inch of ground until it's all gone, while I watch the rest of you let more and more pass simply because it hasn't become unbearable yet and you're all to short sighted to see the possibility of a time where it becomes such a way.

I have a great life. Although I should probably get back to work and stop poking your tinders I've gotta finance some Steelheadin this weekend.
 
Officers I know run plates many times at random, yes they run those that look suspicious, but they also just run them to do it. So really we have not seen a difference other than a machine can run more at a quicker rate.
 
Ockie said:
Wow, think you can try to label and insult some more? :rolleyes: You need to get a life.
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Wait, I just reread that I totally called everyone bitching about the ACLU a bunch of liberals.

Apologies everyone. I'm just connecting logic dots here I find rather comical. I hope none of you were to offended...
 
Teknikallysekure said:
I didn't label or insult anyone what've I said that's insulting? We've had other discussions which lead to that where you described this exact scenario to me word for word. You said you'd lived in other countries that were much less tolerant of rights and freedom and that what we considered rights or freedoms weren't necessarily so.

Is that really so unfair?

You have to realize Ockie, that big freedoms aren't lost, small ones are over and over and over again until none of the big ones remain. This is why I maintain and will fight every inch of ground until it's all gone, while I watch the rest of you let more and more pass simply because it hasn't become unbearable yet and you're all to short sighted to see the possibility of a time where it becomes such a way.

I have a great life. Although I should probably get back to work and stop poking your tinders I've gotta finance some Steelheadin this weekend.
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I took this to PM's, because quite honestly you are unable. You can feel free to rant your pages to me via PM.

I always find it ironic how the other person is always the one who is "short-sighted", regardless of which side it's on.
 
theDreamer said:
Officers I know run plates many times at random, yes they run those that look suspicious, but they also just run them to do it. So really we have not seen a difference other than a machine can run more at a quicker rate.
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Yes, but again police officers on the streets even running plates at random are nowhere near a comparison for a machine that collects every single plate, and compiles them into a massive database that's stored for years on end.

If you can't see the difference between the two, or the great possibility for harm with the latter I don't know what to tell ya man.
 
mentok1982 said:
Let the plate hunter hunt. Unless you stole a car, using a car that belongs to a felon, or you are
using a license plate that is also being used by a criminal, you have nothing to fear.
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We should tap everyone in America's phone's too. If you're not doing anything illegal, then there's nothing to worry about...


...RIGHT?
 
Teknikallysekure said:
Yes, but again police officers on the streets even running plates at random are nowhere near a comparison for a machine that collects every single plate, and compiles them into a massive database that's stored for years on end.

If you can't see the difference between the two, or the great possibility for harm with the latter I don't know what to tell ya man.
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I see the difference, a computer does it faster, what is so wrong about that though? Each is doing the same task, but at different rates of speed, computers have help speed up normal work for efficiency and this is exactly a good use for it.
 
zero_vertical said:
We should tap everyone in America's phone's too. If you're not doing anything illegal, then there's nothing to worry about...


...RIGHT?
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Uh, where've you been for the last 6 years?

Most of these guys have already argued me to the hilt that we should tap all the phones... kinda pointless.

Conservative War ideals + Socialist powerful government monitoring your every move... all we need is a dash of intolerance and we can totally be fascists!

I think it's time America sinks into a durge of Socialist control like these people all want. We deserve it at this point.
 
theDreamer said:
I see the difference, a computer does it faster, what is so wrong about that though? Each is doing the same task, but at different rates of speed, computers have help speed up normal work for efficiency and this is exactly a good use for it.
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Are you looking for specific examples for possiblities of abuse or is the high possibility of abuse not enough?
 
I'm conservative to the bone... and actually I think I might be doing a reversal here of my original opinion (this never happens). Although I can't stand the ACLU whatsoever... I think in this very specific case.. it is crossing the line. Remember what the constitution was created for... to LIMIT government. This would certainly expand it. I do not like traffic cameras at all, actually I can't stand them.. this is just the next step. The real solution to the problem is to make the government smaller and more flexible and adaptive, not create machines to do the job of police officers.
 
The honest truth here is the borders. Obviously the only real reason I would support this would be to catch terrorists... but realistically a car registration being used to find one is already admitting a failure that they got in to begin with. I think all the time, effort, and money of our government should be better spent strengthening our borders and their security, and not rigged up programs like machines taking pictures of license plates.
 
Teknikallysekure said:
Yes, but again police officers on the streets even running plates at random are nowhere near a comparison for a machine that collects every single plate, and compiles them into a massive database that's stored for years on end.

If you can't see the difference between the two, or the great possibility for harm with the latter I don't know what to tell ya man.
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Isn't this what the dmv does? Anyway, anything man made can be defeated... And these plate tracking cameras have nothing to do with "traffic control devices" so illegally display my plate so that only a police officer can read it, that way I secure that he still has a job to do, and the hackers and the secret government that want's to find ways of introducing binary poisons into my consumables, can't just track me down by flipping through the channels of camera's from the city that I live in... don't forget to display your appropriate finger to the currently installed camera's.
 
zero_vertical said:
We should tap everyone in America's phone's too. If you're not doing anything illegal, then there's nothing to worry about...


...RIGHT?
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EXACTLY!!! ZOMG BUNCHA CRIMINALS DON'T WANT US TO WATCH THEM AND LISTEN TO EVERYTHING THEY SAY OMG OMG OMG RABBLE RABBLE!!!

/sarcasm :)

Ockie said:
I took this to PM's, because quite honestly you are unable. You can feel free to rant your pages to me via PM.

I always find it ironic how the other person is always the one who is "short-sighted", regardless of which side it's on.
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You must hear that a lot... ever wonder if it's because you ARE being short-sighted?


Teknikallysekure said:
I didn't label or insult anyone what've I said that's insulting? We've had other discussions which lead to that where you described this exact scenario to me word for word. You said you'd lived in other countries that were much less tolerant of rights and freedom and that what we considered rights or freedoms weren't necessarily so.

Is that really so unfair?

You have to realize Ockie, that big freedoms aren't lost, small ones are over and over and over again until none of the big ones remain. This is why I maintain and will fight every inch of ground until it's all gone, while I watch the rest of you let more and more pass simply because it hasn't become unbearable yet and you're all to short sighted to see the possibility of a time where it becomes such a way.

I have a great life. Although I should probably get back to work and stop poking your tinders I've gotta finance some Steelheadin this weekend.
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Well said.
 
Azhar said:
Disclaimer: I only read 2 pages of this topic. What I say has nothing to do with what anyone else says above me :p

The way I see it, the plate hunter can be beneficial. Look at what happened in Minnesota a couple weeks ago. Imagine the plate hunter being useful in making surveys and decisions. Not just bridges, but decisions like, making a road wider because too many cars travel it. Building more parking garage in an area because too many cars go there. Enforcing carpooling because theres too many cars on the road. Deciding what roads to salt first in the winter to reduce accidents. I can go on and on.
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You only need to have a car count, not an owner list. And here's a clue: they knew how many cars went over that bridge. It was in countless newspaper articles. There's not one example that you've given that requires personally identifiable information or this technology. Ever see those little black rubber hoses across a road? That's what they're used for.



Think of the bigger picture, not just how the police functions.

The Plate Hunter can be good for us if the right people share information and make use of it.

They don't even have to look up who the car belongs to. They can just use it as a reference, like "Oh don't count this plat number. We already included him on its last pass"

Call me an optimist. I'm just a little tired of hearing people complaining about the smallest things in the world. Don't want to get caught doing something? Well don't break the law!
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Call me a pessimist, but a government that seizes assets and then sells them, without ever charging the owners with a crime is not to be trusted, simply because a joint is found on/in your property (which may have been brought by a guest in your home), is not to be trusted.

You say you can fight it in court? Sure you can, but your property is presumed guilty until proven innocent. Don't worry about your record, you're unlikely to be charged with a crime. This is just a nice way for the states to make some extra cash.

So yeah, when it comes to protecting people freedoms, I don't trust the government to do the right thing. This type of information will be misused by those in power.
 
Teknikallysekure said:
The ability to drive down the street without being investigated to determine whether or not I'm a criminal.
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I'm actually ok with the actual surveilance, so long as it's only used to to let the patrol car know that the owner of said car has a warrant for parking tickets, robbing banks....whatever.

For me it's the database that worries me.
 
Teknikallysekure said:
Uh, where've you been for the last 6 years?

Most of these guys have already argued me to the hilt that we should tap all the phones... kinda pointless.

Conservative War ideals + Socialist powerful government monitoring your every move... all we need is a dash of intolerance and we can totally be fascists!

I think it's time America sinks into a durge of Socialist control like these people all want. We deserve it at this point.
Click to expand...

Let's face it, there are virtually no conservatives that value liberty over authoritarian.

And to be fair, virtually none of the liberals in government do either. When you go to political compass.org and compare to Bush to Kerry, Kerry is a bit less of an authoritarian, and he's a bit less of a neo-liberal, but they're both in quadrant 2 (Neo-liberal economics and authoritarians).
 
One thing I don't get is if you didn't steal a car and are not a criminal why are you against this new system?

This is no different from the grandma who lives across from you and always sits in the window knowing everyone's daily routine.

What about when you go to Meijer to pick up some milk and bread and you have 100 cameras in the store tracking your move? I think some people need to put on their tin foil helmets and just stay off the road.

And if this new system does work and is put in action in all 50 states and you are still freaked out about the government coming after you, just ride a bike. USA has the most obese people in the world, transportation by bicycle will become the new trend and everyone wins.
 
Hulk said:
One thing I don't get is if you didn't steal a car and are not a criminal why are you against this new system?
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WIll you join me in supporting a constitutional amendment that allows the government to search houses at will without warrants?

If not, why not? Are you a terrorist or a criminal? If not, then you have nothing to worry about.
 
nilepez said:
WIll you join me in supporting a constitutional amendment that allows the government to search houses at will without warrants?

If not, why not? Are you a terrorist or a criminal? If not, then you have nothing to worry about.
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Nobody is talking about changing the Constitution. Why do you keep bringing it up? You're an oddball man. We are discussing legal licence plate readers to find stolen cars, and you want to try to put words in people's mouths to get something in direct violation of the Constitution? man... :rolleyes:
 
w1retap said:
Nobody is talking about changing the Constitution. Why do you keep bringing it up? You're an oddball man. We are discussing legal licence plate readers to find stolen cars, and you want to try to put words in people's mouths to get something in direct violation of the Constitution? man... :rolleyes:
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It's the exact logic YOU are using. He is bringing it up because it has everything to do with our rights. This isn't about the license plate readers, it's about what they are used for (a tracking database for citizens' movement patterns and whereabouts). Go ahead and continue with your blinders on until you stumble into the cage... we'll be busy trying to steer toward the better futures.
 
Hulk said:
One thing I don't get is if you didn't steal a car and are not a criminal why are you against this new system?

This is no different from the grandma who lives across from you and always sits in the window knowing everyone's daily routine.

What about when you go to Meijer to pick up some milk and bread and you have 100 cameras in the store tracking your move? I think some people need to put on their tin foil helmets and just stay off the road.

And if this new system does work and is put in action in all 50 states and you are still freaked out about the government coming after you, just ride a bike. USA has the most obese people in the world, transportation by bicycle will become the new trend and everyone wins.
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Come on, let's go make an Amendment that lets the government (or authorized private officials) search us every time we leave our neighborhoods! Oh yeah, and why not some tracking RFID chips that are just under our skin in the base of our neck? WHAT? YOU DON'T WANT IT? YOU MUST BE A CRIMINAL!!!!

I believe cameras in a grocery store do not automatically tag you identifiably, track your movement and exact whereabouts, compile them into a database, and then cross-reference them to determine what you're doing or for future use however the heck they want to.

Right... we're all obese. You must have read that on the Fox News site, huh? ;)
 
It is kind of hard when people are living in fantasy land and not the real world. No matter how many facts I throw out there, it would all be dismissed by your type anyhow. I've done it over and over. It gets old, boring, and pointless. I'll let you live in fear since that is how you choose to be.
 
w1retap said:
It is kind of hard when people are living in fantasy land and not the real world. No matter how many facts I throw out there, it would all be dismissed by your type anyhow. I've done it over and over. It gets old, boring, and pointless. I'll let you live in fear since that is how you choose to be.
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It's funny, that's exactly how I view your "type". "OMG WE HAVE TO GIVE UP OUR PRIVACY AND RIGHTS BECAUSE WHAT IF A TERRORIST ATTACKS!!! OR A CRIMINAL IS HERE!?!?!" is what your arguments amount to. Sounds like living in fear to me.
 
Oh vey. Here's what I deduced from reading this whole thread: A couple of you guys need tin foil hats.
 
GoldenTiger said:
It's funny, that's exactly how I view your "type". "OMG WE HAVE TO GIVE UP OUR PRIVACY AND RIGHTS BECAUSE WHAT IF A TERRORIST ATTACKS!!! OR A CRIMINAL IS HERE!?!?!" is what your arguments amount to. Sounds like living in fear to me.
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I never said anything to give up privacy. Public is public. I'm quite comfortable in America.
 
I'm all for this tech.

I just don't see how it would negatively affect the lives of people who are non-criminals. All the license plates get scanned, thereby increasing the chance that stolen cars will be caught sooner. In the UK, speed cameras are used to catch speeders all the time.

The license plate is in public view, so the information might as well be collected. It's no different from a security camera at the grocery store checkout line recording you making your weekly purchases. As long as the information is stored in a secure location, and you haven't stolen a car, then nothing changes...and if you commit a crime, knowing where your car was couldn't be used as an alibi or as proof of the crime, since anyone could be driving it. Storing the data securely is the weak link.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Come on, let's go make an Amendment that lets the government (or authorized private officials) search us every time we leave our neighborhoods! Oh yeah, and why not some tracking RFID chips that are just under our skin in the base of our neck? WHAT? YOU DON'T WANT IT? YOU MUST BE A CRIMINAL!!!!

I believe cameras in a grocery store do not automatically tag you identifiably, track your movement and exact whereabouts, compile them into a database, and then cross-reference them to determine what you're doing or for future use however the heck they want to.

Right... we're all obese. You must have read that on the Fox News site, huh? ;)
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Monitoring publicly displayed information like license plates is a whole lot different than implanting radio chips inside an individual's body. You can't really use license plates to track people, since anyone could be using the car. If you let your neighbor borrow the car for a weekend trip, the system couldn't assume that it was you in the car all weekend. It tracks license plates, not cars or people.
 
w1retap said:
Nobody is talking about changing the Constitution. Why do you keep bringing it up? You're an oddball man. We are discussing legal licence plate readers to find stolen cars, and you want to try to put words in people's mouths to get something in direct violation of the Constitution? man... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Neither am I. You clearly don't get that if you can justify the current law by saying that only a criminal would care, then you can justify altering the constitution so that warrants are not needed to search a house.

Why do you think that's such a big leap. Are you doing something illegal in your house? If not, then why would you care if the police drop by a few times a year to make sure you stay honest?
 
w1retap said:
It is kind of hard when people are living in fantasy land and not the real world. No matter how many facts I throw out there, it would all be dismissed by your type anyhow. I've done it over and over. It gets old, boring, and pointless. I'll let you live in fear since that is how you choose to be.
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I've yet to see you throw out any facts at all. Your idea of facts go like this, "It's no different than a copy writing down stuff in a book," which is true if the cop is capable of being in hundreds of locations simultaneously and some sort of savant that can remember the license plate of every car he's ever seen, as well as when and where he saw them.

I guess you're right. I just didn't realize God and Santa had teamed up to singlehandedly fight crime in America.
 
I can see why people would be upset with this. I wouldn't care personally because I don't really take my car anywhere important.
 
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