4x4 Next Month

[Wahrscheinlichkeit]

As I understand it, DDR2 and DDR1 provide the *same* bandwith when at identical clockspeeds/latencies.

However, DDR2 was designed to scale to 1GHz and beyond, DDR1 tops out at around 500MHz.

Therefore, DDR2 @ 1GHz will provide close to 2x the bandwith of DDR1 @ 500MHz. I say 'close' because DDR2 latencies are still higher than DDR1 latencies.

DDR can go higher but its a pita. I agree with you there though.

 

[harpoon]

So there you have it. !!!!!!s go ahead and rip me apart, as per usual. You guys might want to get a different hobby though. The truth is I'm nobody important, what Is the point in trying so desperately, and failing to prove me wrong? I dont get it. Some of you guys have made it you life goal to crap on what I say. Why?

I'd say it's more your attitude or the way you come across.

Constant accusations of 'FUD!!!' and 'F-A-N-B-O-I' don't help either when people are just trying to have a discussion. Might want to ease up a bit on that.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they want to spread FUD. Especially when it comes to unannounced products like 4x4 and K8L.

At the end of the day, everybody is just speculating.

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

First I'd ask you to stop imaging things. A Dual Processor system is NOT a quad core LOL! There's a Two Socket License fee to prove that. 4 cores on one package is not the same as two Dual Cores of any kind=P

show me where i said that
as always, i enjoy a good debate with you

DDR2 doesnt have double the bandwidth not even close. In most cases its slower than ddr1 and has higher latency.
Only instance that ddr2 600 will beat ddr 533. Is if you somehow manage to get the ddr2 memory timings at 4-4-4. Even then its only a mere 700-900mbps difference but with the downside of 4-5ns increase in latency.

Only real great thing about ddr2 is power consumption which is around 30% less than its ddr1 counterparts.

higher latency? that line of thinking is so last year.
so, if you somehow managed to get memory timings at 4-4-4? how about some 3-3-3 at 450mhz? or 4-4-3 at 600mhz? i have more than a couple sets that can do both.
ddr2 is a hell of a lot better than you seem to think.
btw, how's this for latency? even with my best bh-5, the BEST ddr1 for low latency, i can't touch this:
http://www.eclipseoc.com/image/memory/Teamgroup DDR2-800 2x512mb/30.5ns.png
and to make it even better, the command rate is at 2T. if my IMC would do 1T at those speeds, it'd easily be in the mid 28's

At the end of the day, everybody is just speculating.

except when false facts are posted, which i saw plenty of.
see post # 65 and on

 

[harpoon]

DDR can go higher but its a pita. I agree with you there though.

Yeah I'm aware DDR1 can go higher but at the expense of latencies. Might as well go DDR2 if you want higher memory speeds or pure bandwith.

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

Yeah I'm aware DDR1 can go higher but at the expense of latencies. Might as well go DDR2 if you want higher memory speeds or pure bandwith.

remember that overall latency is a function of timings and mhz. the increase in mhz makes up for the increase in timings, thus making overall latency about the same, or in some cases, lower

 

[Wahrscheinlichkeit]

On a clock for clock basis DDR still has lower latencies. All I was stating. Now if for some freakish way you had DDR1 at 1000mhz it would have considerably lower latency than DDR2 at the same speed.
I've yet to see any buffered ddr2 that will run DDR533 or greater that has cas 3 latencies if you know of any please let me know
In no way am I doubting the capability of DDR2. I'm going to be using it in my dual opty setup.

 

[harpoon]

remember that overall latency is a function of timings and mhz. the increase in mhz makes up for the increase in timings, thus making overall latency about the same, or in some cases, lower

Yes, you are right about that. Kind of how AM2 @ DDR2-667 matches S939 and @ DDR2-800 surpasses it.

 

[Swiss Miss]

I've yet to see any buffered ddr2 that will run DDR533 or greater that has cas 3 latencies if you know of any please let me know

just look for buffered ram with micron D9GMH or D9GKX if possible. both should be able to do ddr2-533 if not DDR2-667 at 3-3-3 with relative ease

 

[Wahrscheinlichkeit]

just look for buffered ram with micron D9GMH or D9GKX if possible. both should be able to do ddr2-533 if not DDR2-667 at 3-3-3 with relative ease

Thank you


-edit thats a nogo unable to find any registered ddr2-533-667 with 3 timings

 

[CCUABIDExORxDIE]

just look for buffered ram with micron D9GMH or D9GKX if possible. both should be able to do ddr2-533 if not DDR2-667 at 3-3-3 with relative ease

agreed sarah. 4x4 will be fun

 

[duby229]

I'd say it's more your attitude or the way you come across.

Constant accusations of 'FUD!!!' and 'F-A-N-B-O-I' don't help either when people are just trying to have a discussion. Might want to ease up a bit on that.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they want to spread FUD. Especially when it comes to unannounced products like 4x4 and K8L.

At the end of the day, everybody is just speculating.

Fair enough. This is actually the first time enyone has said it like this. I know damn well people think that. I was just waiting for someone to say it..Thank you. Most of the time I give it back the same way I get it. I realize this is all speculation. It depends on whether the speculation is positive or negative. In my opinion negetive speculation is FUD. Pure and simple.

But what I'll do from now on is substitute FUD with the term negative speculation or some non-offending equivalent. Anyhow thanks for the advice I do appreciate your help.

 

[harpoon]

Fair enough. This is actually the first time enyone has said it like this. I know damn well people think that. I was just waiting for someone to say it..Thank you. Most of the time I give it back the same way I get it. I realize this is all speculation. It depends on whether the speculation is positive or negative. In my opinion negetive speculation is FUD. Pure and simple.

But what I'll do from now on is substitute FUD with the term negative speculation or some non-offending equivalent. Anyhow thanks for the advice I do appreciate your help.

No probs, BTW what's 'positive speculation' gonna be called? If you're gonna call negative speculation 'FUD', you gotta call positive speculation something.

'Courage, Certainty, Surety'? CCS.

 

[duby229]

No probs, BTW what's 'positive speculation' gonna be called? If you're gonna call negative speculation 'FUD', you gotta call positive speculation something.

'Courage, Certainty, Surety'? CCS.

No No that's easy to answer....

Negative speculation = FUD
Positive speculation = HYPE

See easy.

 

[Serge84]

The FX64 and FX66 will still be on AM2 but much cheaper since the FX70 series will be out. FX64 will be about $600 and the FX66 about $700. Since the FX70 will be $800 and up for the higher model numbers. 2 cpus for one price is a great deal. Plus 4x4 will be more powerful because its a scaled platform with double the hyper transport bus to use. It will just be great for multi tasking wile decoding a move(S) and playing a game at the same time. Plus the upgradeability to quad core.

Would be nice. Is a good idea. If you can buy a rig like that I don't think you would care about power useage. Quadro core2 will cost the same ya know. Cus you need $999 for the cpu and $200 for a board to support it atleast. AMD $800 for 2 FX70's and a 100 or $200 mobo I'm sure it will be far cheaper then that. AMD's are just way cheaper board wise and we have seen budget dual socket boards before.

 

[harpoon]

The FX64 and FX66 will still be on AM2 but much cheaper since the FX70 series is out. FX64 will be about $600 and the FX66 about $700. Since the FX70 will be $800 and up for the higher model numbers. 2 cpus for one price is a great deal. Plus 4x4 will be more powerful because its a scaled platform with double the hyper transport bus to use. It will just be great for multi tasking wile decoding a move(S) and playing a game at the same time. Plus the upgradeability to quad core.

Would be nice. Is a good idea. If you can buy a rig like that I don't think you would care about power useage. Quadro core2 will cost the same ya know. Cus you need $999 for the cpu and $200 for a board to support it atleast. AMD $800 for 2 FX70's and a 100 or $200 mobo I'm sure it will be far cheaper then that. AMD's are just way cheaper board wise and we have seen budget dual socket boards before.

Somehow, I don't see Socket F 4x4 boards coming in at $100. LOL is that considered 'FUD' duby?

 

[Serge84]

Its also a matter of taste and choice in fandoms or what you want to do with it. One 1066 fsb can not handle too much data very well going through 4 bloody cores. Quadro will kick ass in games but that FSB is limiting its true power in what it could do in multi tasking on full stress. 4x4 can be on full stress and still not be effected because it has 3HT links per cpu and double the HT links on the board running 2000MT/s each way. That just can't be compared because it also scales. I'm worried about that 1066fsb for quadro...

 

[Serge84]

Somehow, I don't see Socket F 4x4 boards coming in at $100. LOL is that considered 'FUD' duby?

Its not even a real server board. All they did was put a 2nd socket on it in a cheaper configeration with 3 links. Doesn't mean it has to be made with server quality parts. The only reason why server boards are more expencive is because its built with server quality parts that will last longer and take higher stresses. The boards aren't aimed at enterprises. They would lose server business if they started useing cheaper servers. Who would buy a opteron station when they can buy a higher performance one for cheaper for the same price of one cpu but get 2 in one box with 4x4.

 

[harpoon]

Its also a matter of taste and choice in fandoms or what you want to do with it. One 1066 fsb can not handle too much data very well going through 4 bloody cores. Quadro will kick ass in games but that FSB is limiting its true power in what it could do in multi tasking on full stress. 4x4 can be on full stress and still not be effected because it has 3HT links per cpu and double the HT links on the board running 2000MT/s each way. That just can't be compared because it also scales. I'm worried about that 1066fsb for quadro...

Rahul Sood (owner of Voodoo PC) doesn't seem as 'worried' as you. The fact that he actually got to play with a real Kentsfield instead of speculating on theoretical limitations probably helped.

http://voodoopc.blogspot.com/

Look for "Intel Kentsfield: General Observations..."

 

[harpoon]

Its not even a real server board. All they did was put a 2nd socket on it in a cheaper configeration with 3 links. Doesn't mean it has to be made with server quality parts. The only reason why server boards are more expencive is because its built with server quality parts that will last longer and take higher stresses. The boards aren't aimed at enterprises. They would lose server business if they started useing cheaper servers. Who would buy a opteron station when they can buy a higher performance one for cheaper for the same price of one cpu but get 2 in one box with 4x4.

I guess we shall see soon, won't we? I'm sorry, but I don't see 4x4 boards being released at anything near the $100 pricepoint. Even if it was $200 I'd say that's a very reasonable price.

Btw, OT but the guys @ xtremesys AMD forum are getting impatient waiting for your 64bit benches.

 

[duby229]

Somehow, I don't see Socket F 4x4 boards coming in at $100. LOL is that considered 'FUD' duby?

No that's hype. Cant really blame him though. I too think 4x4 is going to be a good thing. Maybe a bit expensive, but it'll add just another option to list of possibilities. A possibility that doesnt exist on the Intel side.... A consumer level dual socket motherboard....

I'm all for consumer choice.

 

[visaris]

Somehow, I don't see Socket F 4x4 boards coming in at $100. LOL is that considered 'FUD' duby?

FUD stands for "Fear Uncertainty and Doubt". As such, FUD is usually applied only to negative comments or predictions. Being optimistic may be unreasonable, but it is certainly not "FUD".

 

[visaris]

No that's hype. Cant really blame him though. I too think 4x4 is going to be a good thing. Maybe a bit expensive, but it'll add just another option to list of possibilities. A possibility that doesnt exist on the Intel side.... A consumer level dual socket motherboard....

I'm all for consumer choice.

I have to agree. I see lots of people bashing 4x4 as if AMD is making them buy one. If you don't want it, don't buy it. It's that simple However, I've been a dual-socket workstation user for over 5 years, and I am very excited to see AMD try and bring the price down just a smidge. Who knows, my next upgrade may be 4x4 instead of an Opteron based rig. We'll see where the wind takes me in a year or so.

 

[savantu]

No that's hype. Cant really blame him though. I too think 4x4 is going to be a good thing. Maybe a bit expensive, but it'll add just another option to list of possibilities. A possibility that doesnt exist on the Intel side.... A consumer level dual socket motherboard....

I'm all for consumer choice.

Have you heard of Kentsfield ? Who has more "choice" ?

 

[duby229]

Have you heard of Kentsfield ? Who has more "choice" ?

Sorry if you took that out of context. But if you reread what was said, it clearly states consumer level dual socket motherboard. An option which clearly does not exist in Intel's product portfolio.

In that sense...

By the way harpoon, notice the negative undertone in this quote. Clearly FUD

 

[Poncho]

All they did was put a 2nd socket on it in a cheaper configeration with 3 links.

LOL.... do you even know what it takes to "put a 2nd socket" on a board? You can't just toss one on there and connect some wires. It takes months of design, months of validation before you have a product that it even ready for the market. Have you forgotten that when AMD announced this platform the OEMs/ODMs had never heard of it... and that was only a few months ago. So are you going to tell me that they designed, from the ground up, an enirely new platform in the matter of a few months. Sorry buddy.... it just doesn't work that way. I'd be willing to bet that all they did was take an existing server/workstation board and disable the need for Registered memory. That makes MUCH more sense because that it all this platform is.... a server board without Registered/ECC memory.

 

[Donnie27]

Donnie, Nobody called anybody stupid. I certainly did not. What I said was that his comment was the dumbest thing I ever heard. And it was. It doesnt reflect on him in any way. Hell I'm sure I may say some stupid things from time to time as well. I hope you are the only one to take it in such a way. If not then I apologize for saying it. I didnt mean it in a bad fashion.

As far as the power consumption thing goes. I dont think I'm wrong, but we'll have to wait and see.

As far as the crossbar thing goes. It is a fully meshed switch. Bandwidth is additive when new cores are added.

As far as the memory controller being 256bits, that is false, it's actually 2 dual channel 128bit memory controllers, one per socket.

As far as whats native,and whats not.... My personal opinion is that if it's on a single die, and it doesnt send cache traffic over the FSB, then it's native. Otherwize if it's an MCM it's a hack, and if it's a dual socket, then it's a dual socket.

So there you have it. !!!!!!s go ahead and rip me apart, as per usual. You guys might want to get a different hobby though. The truth is I'm nobody important, what Is the point in trying so desperately, and failing to prove me wrong? I dont get it. Some of you guys have made it you life goal to crap on what I say. Why?

Dewd every time you post someone is Clueless, wrote the dumbest thing you've ever read, don't get it or etc.... But your understanding of how the FSB works is flawed!

 

[Donnie27]

But those ddr2 equiped dual opties are only acheiving 13gbps not 26.

DDR1 only has around 3.4gbps bandwidth and 6-7 in dual channel mode.
Same for ddr2 at 400mhz that is.

OOOOpps!

 

[fuelvolts]

Sorry if you took that out of context. But if you reread what was said, it clearly states consumer level dual socket motherboard. An option which clearly does not exist in Intel's product portfolio.

In that sense...

By the way harpoon, notice the negative undertone in this quote. Clearly FUD

QFT - I have yet to see a dual socket mobo from intel strictly with prosumers in mind

 

[Donnie27]

Any Dual Socket board is for any frackin' body who wants to buy one=P Oh wait, there's the sign on the BOX, "Not for Enthusiast and DIYERs" Oh well, I can't buy it!

Intel had Pro-sumer/Enthusiast Dual Socket boards as far back as the days when folks ran two CeleronsA on them. VIA and other made them as well. Abit BP6 is what many AMD Fans went to bed dreaming of.

ABIT BP6

Dempsey and Woodcrest here.

Motherboards

 

[Poncho]

QFT - I have yet to see a dual socket mobo from intel strictly with prosumers in mind

That's right... cause why would they spend the R&D to develop, validate, and market a product that would maybe make up <1% of their marketshare? Oh wait... they wouldn't. Guess AMD has the money to burn (and lose) on this. Oh wait... they probably won't lose anything because this ISN"T a new platform, but rather a rehash of current tech. LOL

 

[Gunsmoke]

lol i already saw that @ digital life in NYC on oct14, they were running 2 movies and 2 video games and endcoding a DVD all @ once here are some pics

 

[xgambetx]

anyone know how much the processor will cost?is this going t be 2 processors on a motherboard or 1 processor with 4 cores?

 

[duby229]

That's right... cause why would they spend the R&D to develop, validate, and market a product that would maybe make up <1% of their marketshare? Oh wait... they wouldn't. Guess AMD has the money to burn (and lose) on this. Oh wait... they probably won't lose anything because this ISN"T a new platform, but rather a rehash of current tech. LOL

You said it yourself. It's not new technology, and there isnt anything to lose. So why not? Might as well provide another option to the consumers that can actually benefit from it. I know I sure can. With the software that I run, and the loads I puyt in my computer I can use as much power as I can get.

 

[duby229]

Any Dual Socket board is for any frackin' body who wants to buy one=P Oh wait, there's the sign on the BOX, "Not for Enthusiast and DIYERs" Oh well, I can't buy it!

Intel had Pro-sumer/Enthusiast Dual Socket boards as far back as the days when folks ran two CeleronsA on them. VIA and other made them as well. Abit BP6 is what many AMD Fans went to bed dreaming of.

ABIT BP6

Dempsey and Woodcrest here.

Motherboards

Here is a little bit of hype for ya. Sorry Donnie, but I really dont think the BP6 is a very useful solution in todays age. And DP Woodcrest systems are just simply not designed with consumers in mind. It is a workstation/server product. It doesnt have any overclocking ability, requires registered RAM, and does not support SLI, or Crossfire.

4x4 is designed with the prosumer in mind DP woodcrest is not. Of course it could be done. But It doesnt look like Intel is actually going to do it. I think this is just another example of Intel preventing consumer choice, and AMD filling a void in the markt.

 

[BigMacAttack]

anyone know how much the processor will cost?is this going t be 2 processors on a motherboard or 1 processor with 4 cores?

It is 2 sockets (therefore two cpu's - each dual core) on 1 motherboard. It is also designed to accept 2 quad core cpu's when they become available. Dual processor motherboards that accept 2 Opteron cpu's (and up to 4 if I am not mistaken - saw a pic of one of those setups once - very impressive) have been available for some time now but they are for servers and (at the time) high end workstations that required registered ram and had little or no overclocking potential.
Two dual core cpu's might not impress a lot of folks but I'll be fascinated to see how these setups respond to 2 quad core cpu's. Its way more power than I could ever use but there are those who will be able to make use of it. I'm witholding judgment on 4x4 until I see how it does.
Intel and AMD will also soon release single cpu's with 4 cores on them.

 

[xgambetx]

ohh has it been announced on the prices of the cpus 4 core cpus?,single

 

[Donnie27]

Here is a little bit of hype for ya. Sorry Donnie, but I really dont think the BP6 is a very useful solution in todays age. And DP Woodcrest systems are just simply not designed with consumers in mind. It is a workstation/server product. It doesnt have any overclocking ability, requires registered RAM, and does not support SLI, or Crossfire.

4x4 is designed with the prosumer in mind DP woodcrest is not. Of course it could be done. But It doesnt look like Intel is actually going to do it. I think this is just another example of Intel preventing consumer choice, and AMD filling a void in the markt.

See, there you go again. You make statement about AMD bringing something to the market that's not on the market or filling a VOID. Again Dual Socket systems have been around for how long? BP6 wasn't much different than a BH6=P You aren't silly enough to think I was talking about using a BP6 now FCOL hehehe!

DP Woodcrest is designed for anyone who can build a Single Socket system. Unless like you they have some kind of Intel Phobia. The only advantage a $X$ rig has is a total of 48 PCI-E lanes. Almost anything else it'll be used for will see it get spanked.

I already stated that Intel doesn't have a SLI on Server Boards, what are you talking about? Now please post something useful? Maybe Intel thinks folks are crazy enough to spend that much money on something like 4X4.

$X$ is designed just for what Eclipse said it was, LOL, they don't have an answer for Kentsfield, YET. AMD is filling a VOID? AMD needs 4 X 4 to out do C2D and 590 SLI with Quad GPUs. Or have 32-SLI to out dual Kentsfield.

Oh and Registered RAM is no big deal either

 

[Poncho]

It doesnt have any overclocking ability, requires registered RAM, and does not support SLI, or Crossfire.

You are right on the first two points, though I don't see non registered RAM as a selling point, if anything it's a drawback. For people who will actually use these systems to the fullest, they would more than likely want Registered/ECC memory. The only people who will buy this platform are people who are blinded by AMD pride. As for SLI... you can get SLI on the workstation version of Bensley. Quadro SLI works on the platform just fine.

4x4 is designed with the prosumer in mind DP woodcrest is not. Of course it could be done. But It doesnt look like Intel is actually going to do it. I think this is just another example of Intel preventing consumer choice, and AMD filling a void in the markt.

Sorry... but this "void" that is being filled is a VERY small void... so small that you can't even really call it a void. The people who will buy this will mostly be the most fanatical AMD fans.... people who would buy AMD regardless. AMD is gaining little by this... and most see it for what it really is. At last minute effort to slow Intels gains since Intel will be first to market with actual quad core. It's a misinformation campaign that anybody with half a brain can see right through.

 

[duby229]

You are right on the first two points, though I don't see non registered RAM as a selling point, if anything it's a drawback. For people who will actually use these systems to the fullest, they would more than likely want Registered/ECC memory. The only people who will buy this platform are people who are blinded by AMD pride. As for SLI... you can get SLI on the workstation version of Bensley. Quadro SLI works on the platform just fine.



Sorry... but this "void" that is being filled is a VERY small void... so small that you can't even really call it a void. The people who will buy this will mostly be the most fanatical AMD fans.... people who would buy AMD regardless. AMD is gaining little by this... and most see it for what it really is. At last minute effort to slow Intels gains since Intel will be first to market with actual quad core. It's a misinformation campaign that anybody with half a brain can see right through.

Sorry Poncho, But I just dont agree with you. You can feel free to have your opinion on this matter of course, but so can others as well.

I checked into SLI on Woodcrest DP, and yep your right it does work, My bad. But let's just agree that it was designed for Workstation usage scenario's. You can argue that it can be used in other scenario's as well, but I can argue that is not what it was designed for. WEe can go back and forth all night and get nowhere.

You call it misinformation I call it providing a product that Intel doesnt have. You call it whatever you want and that is fine. I call it whatever I want and that is fine.

By the way notice the negative undertone in your post?

 

[duby229]

See, there you go again. You make statement about AMD bringing something to the market that's not on the market or filling a VOID. Again Dual Socket systems have been around for how long? BP6 wasn't much different than a BH6=P You aren't silly enough to think I was talking about using a BP6 now FCOL hehehe!

DP Woodcrest is designed for anyone who can build a Single Socket system. Unless like you they have some kind of Intel Phobia. The only advantage a $X$ rig has is a total of 48 PCI-E lanes. Almost anything else it'll be used for will see it get spanked.

I already stated that Intel doesn't have a SLI on Server Boards, what are you talking about? Now please post something useful? Maybe Intel thinks folks are crazy enough to spend that much money on something like 4X4.

$X$ is designed just for what Eclipse said it was, LOL, they don't have an answer for Kentsfield, YET. AMD is filling a VOID? AMD needs 4 X 4 to out do C2D and 590 SLI with Quad GPUs. Or have 32-SLI to out dual Kentsfield.

Oh and Registered RAM is no big deal either

WoW!! Positive and negative in the same post. Congrats Donnie.