10 Reasons Linux Gamers Might Want to Pass On the NVIDIA RTX Series

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Megalith, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    Linux gamers looking for reasons to skip NVIDIA’s new GPUs can head over to Phoronix: founder Michael Larabel has listed 10, which include lack of open-source driver support and what will probably be a long wait for Linux games featuring ray tracing. Linux driver support for Turing is also unclear. For fairness, Larabel has also published a list of 10 reasons how Linux gamers may benefit from an RTX card.

    If you want to fully leverage the GeForce RTX 20 "Turing" hardware, or even Maxwell and Pascal graphics cards, it's really only viable using the closed-source proprietary graphics driver for maximum performance and features. There is no open-source Turing support today, and even if there was, it will likely be plagued by the same Maxwell2/Pascal limitations of no re-clocking support -- meaning the GPU on the open-source driver is stuck to performing at the very low clock frequencies programmed by the hardware at boot/initialization time.
     
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  2. Vercinaigh

    Vercinaigh Gawd

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    You missed the counter arguement post made by Phoronix, might consider putting both as not to look bias, just saying. I'll be passing most likely, 1080ti is good enough that 15% isn't compelling and neither is that price, especially with no HDMI 2.1 and thus vendor locked variable refresh and vertical syncing. (Clearly intentional)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  3. Azphira

    Azphira [H]ard|Gawd

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    Good thing I don't hate Microsoft enough to suffer Linux. Looking at the market share statistics, Linux should pass windows use by year 3150.
     
  4. Nukester

    Nukester [H]ard|Gawd

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  5. Bawjaws

    Bawjaws Limp Gawd

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    You won't believe number 7!
     
  6. harbingerofdoom

    harbingerofdoom Limp Gawd

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    i totally believe it
     
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  7. auntjemima

    auntjemima Hand Jobs Legend

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    Top 10 Reasons XYZ are still a thing eh.. huh.
     
  8. drescherjm

    drescherjm [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I think it will happen much quicker than that considering Microsoft lost mobile to linux years ago.
     
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  9. auntjemima

    auntjemima Hand Jobs Legend

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    Mobile Linux wins because it's on select hardware and it has a single company paying for it and backing it.

    Desktop Linux does not. It has 400000 variants, each with a following that refuses to change.

    IF you could get a company to back and create a Ubuntu install, one with hardware companies backing, you might have a winner. One of the biggest Linux obstacles is no company to support the release. It's all open source and because of that, it falls on its face.

    Edit: and I get it. The Linux crowd likes the open source nature. They like the message boards and trying to hack together fixes. That's fine. But don't keep saying "the year of Linux is coming" at the same time.
     
  10. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    I don't think you really understand what Linux is. lol

    There are not 400k variants. Linux is Linux. One distro is not drastically different from another. As a developer if I create a piece of Linux software it will run on ANY distro >.< Perhaps one distro has newer versions of X or Y library and that is cool... if it matters I can bundle my software into a flatpak or snap.

    Valve is the company pushing Linux gaming.

    Google is the company pushing mobile Linux.... and laptop Linux.

    Is Linux going to take over the desktop ? Ya not likely, and its not that there isn't one company to support it... its that there isn't one company to Greese $$$ the OEM wheels and out spend MS. Who knows... its not really required frankly the desktop is hardly the future of computing. Perhaps after google has a majority of the laptop market they decide to go after the desktop as well... but ya I don't see it. I do however doubt in 20 years anyone anywhere is still buying new desktops.

    As to Micheals thoughts on 2080... I don't think RT games will be unplayable on Linux for long. At the rate Valve has been pushing DXVK and VKD3D development. I have no doubt RT will be running just fine on Linux before the games are shipping... if developers stick to DX12, but I would be willing to bet a lot of those RTX games are going to ship with Vulkan paths if not Vulkan exclusive, if they do ship running Vulkan Linux and Windows will have performance parity even if there isn't a Linux native blob shipping from the developer.
     
  11. BloodyIron

    BloodyIron 2[H]4U

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    The proprietary Linux nVidia drivers are actually good. While it's great AMD open sourced their drivers, I doubt nVidia will do it any time soon.
     
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  12. auntjemima

    auntjemima Hand Jobs Legend

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    This is not accurate in the slightest and we both know it.

    Try installing something created for RHEL into a Ubuntu install. Just because you know how to remove the files you need, update the ones required and repackage it does not mean it's a cake walk.

    It's the same reason we have different versions of Linux software when I go to download a file.
     
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  13. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    There is 100% NOTHING different about that software other then the packaging designed to talk to different package managers. .rpm and .deb files are actually very much the same, they are just compressed archives of files dir structures and .ini/.config files that talk to a distros package manager. Yes for RHEL a software developer that uses a lot of expected system libraries has to account for SOME libraries having odd version numbers due to the way Red hat backports things. (often they have old version numbers but new flags backported into libraries).

    Having said that ... RHEL is a commercial distro aimed at servers. It is hardly intended for you or me to be using at home. Really using RHEL or Cent on a home desktop is stupid. Unless you are running Cent as a learning project.

    Point is the software is not different, just the packaging method. Its not really any different from companies offering .msi / .exe / .zip downloads for windows. The software is the same the distribution wrapper is different.

    We also now have snap and flatpak universal packages. Which install on nearly every distro... the few that don't support flatpak and or snap are specific custom purpose distros like say Scientific Linux. (you know the guys at CERN don't care if they can install the VLC snap or not ;) )

    PS... almost every distro has a CLI program called alien in their repo packages. (if not its not hard to find) alien will convert .deb /.rpm. /.tgz/.slp some people do it by hand but if your not that technical alien works really well... >alien --to--deb ~/xxxx.rpm >alien --to--rpm ~/xxxx.deb
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  14. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    Which is why many Linux users have sworn off Nvidia.

    AMDs open move is fairly new to be honest. They have went all in though and really supported the open source team, including dedicating AMD staff to Linux open source driver development. AMD has been working together with other Linux developers to create and implement open standards. Nvidia is always pushing their own way of doing things which are often ass backwards like the eglstreams junk.

    If your not up on the eglstreams controversy and how Nvidia has tried to muscle their way into the very fabric of Linux. Here is an older blog from Martin Floser he was for years the maintainer of KDE Kwin.(think he moved on last year)
    https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-or-not/
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
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  15. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yeah, its only been like 30+ years since I first read that Linux was taking over windows. It can't be much longer, right?
     
  16. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    I can't believe that after all these years, people are still bitching about propietary linux drivers.
     
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  17. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    I don't see RTX games in Linux anytime soon if ever. As it is, native linux games are still a dime a dozen and I whlie STEAM is working hard to bring more windows games to Linux, that could potentially hurt native linux games.
     
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  18. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    Um RT games are most likely going to be using Vulkan.

    Not sure if you have been paying attention... but Via Steam you can now install any windows only game in Linux now. If the game has a vulkan path it runs at least as fast and often faster then windows. Everyone is fawning over how fast windows Doom is on Linux... its because its using Vulkan. From personal experience ya its 3-5% or so faster (the windows version) running under Linux.

    Its also possible that developers may choose to use DX12 instead... that also runs just fine in Linux. Valve has been directly support VKD3D for DX12->Vulkan... by the time games are shipping I have no doubt any RT specific flags will be supported. We'll have to wait to see numbers ect... but I don't think support of the feature is a big deal. Its just a few flags in DX 12 of Vulkan... and the DX12 wrapper can easily be updated. (in fact I believe it already has been, Valve is deeper into the development industry then many seem to realize)

    Valve is ironing things out... and steam play is shaping up to be a very good solution. Many of us have had our DX games running with very little performance hit for awhile now... but Valve is now making it one click no worries for the masses. Yes the next year or so is going to see the end of the old Linux sucks at gaming arguments. Linux doesn't have enough games ect. Only a few weeks into official beta and a large number of titles are running very smoothly. The few outliers and issues with specific hardware will get smoothed out.
     
  19. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Ah, the standard ChadD response, you cannot possibly understand Linux so here, let me tell you why you are wrong and I have it all figured out. /s :D (Of course, he never mentions the fact that Chrome OS is a locked down and extremely limited OS that, if you are lucky, might get angry birds to run on, maybe..... :D

    Edit: Oh, and let me ignore the obvious exaggeration for effect because it does not fit with ChadD being right..... :D
     
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  20. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    It is more that some companies are not evolving along the steps that have been made within Linux, it is a caveman mentality, stuck in the cave and not wanting to look outside and adjust.
    Actually that already happened 10+ years ago it is nicer to run Linux then Windows. But you prolly meant userbase/sales .
    But if you turn that around and look at how Windows been over 30 years then there is nothing to get excited about...
     
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  21. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    I'm always right so what is with the /s ?

    Really though locked down or not Linux is a Kernel >.< I never claimed chromeos was the open source hero OS of the future but it is 100% Linux.
     
  22. Nobu

    Nobu [H]ard|Gawd

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    The real hero os of the future is GenodeOS (w/linux) /s
    Edit: seriously though, GenodeOS is pretty cool tech.
     
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  23. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    That"s odd. I feel the same way about linux
     
  24. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Well that's not true. Windows got better and better over time, then it started sliding backwards. Linux has shown a lot more improvement overall, but it started off in more user-hostile territory also.
     
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  25. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed Gawd

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    The linked article is a load of crap. The only reason for anyone, Linux and Windows users alike, not to upgrade to the RTX series is the ridiculous price.

    I love Nvidia's binary drivers, never had an issue with them under Linux and don't really buy into all the fuss over 'strictly FOSS'. While I applaud the AMD open source driver development team and the massive advances they've made, Nvidia's drivers are still faster and they have a real control panel.

    And ChadD's right, under all the bling, the kernel and the file structure regarding Linux is all identical. The so called fragmentation really isn't an issue.
     
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  26. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Everything in that list has almost always been a given on Linux.
    That isn't the fault of Linux, if you can even call it a fault, it is just the lack of support that NVIDIA wishes to give to non-Windows operating systems.

    The RTX GPUs are also far too pricey, considering they are basically unproven at this point, and from the results we have seen, haven't been impressive enough to muster such a high price tag.
    The only reason NVIDIA can get away with it at this point is due to the lack of competition and questionable market demand - but, without competition, this is the result, and it has been this way with any technology throughout history.
     
  27. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger 3.5GB GTX 970 Slayer

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    Funny, I feel that way about Linux as does virtually every other computer user on the desktop or tablets. Windows has added lots of things over the years, while Linux just stands still and implodes with rare steps forward, forever like a mammoth in a tar pit.
     
  28. legcramp

    legcramp [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Darn all four of them are going to be disappointed.
     
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  29. damicatz

    damicatz 2[H]4U

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    Chromebooks run on Linux and they are getting the ability to run desktop Linux apps. And Chromebooks are eating Microsoft's lunch in the low end segment these days and with the increasing dominance in education, you are going to have an entire generation of people raised on Google's platform rather than Microsoft's.
     
  30. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    Its funny how people preach AMD for favoring open source drivers. They didn't do it for being nice. For years, they didn't have the resources (or the will) to do the drivers themselves. For decades AMD driver support SUCKED BIGTIME, both open and closed sourced. Even today driver support isn't anywhere near as good as nvidia.
    To be fair, thanks to Vulkan, AMD performance is so much better than with OpenGL and in that regard the future looks bright.
     
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  31. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed Gawd

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    Well said. AMDGPU-PRO still lags behind everything else.
     
  32. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    I had to read that twice... are you claiming windows is dominate or even loved on tablets ? ;) lol

    Lets all be honest average people don't really use Windows anymore accept perhaps at work if there profession requires computer work. Even their company iphones/android devices and the like are more common then company windows laptops at this point.

    Used to be a few times a year one of my many relatives would call me up and ask my opinion on what PC or laptop to pick up. I rarely get those calls anymore. (and no its not cause I push Linux on them or something) The simple truth is I know a ton of people whos PCs are 7-10 years old at this point... and if (when) they die they don't replace them. Now when I talk to those relatives they say things like hey I picked up this new HP printer... its fantastic I can print right from my phone.

    In the last 10 years MS has added very little of technical merit to windows. They abandoned their own NTFS replacement. DirectX 12 has been (and always will be) DOA. Windows 10 added back things they deleted from Windows 8. Live tiles are one of the first things most people get rid off. Cortana is a more useless Suri that spys on you just a little bit more. They blew up the thumbnails on their GUI task switcher... ground breaking stuff. They improved windows snapping... you know it now works just like Gnome, again ground breaking stuff. They did finally kill IE... and replaced it with the half baked Edge ? Genius indeed. They added multiple desktops... ahh yes a very inspired MS invention, of course the MS version still blows in comparison. They attempted to kill w32 for good... developers love universal apps so much they just jumped right in, oh ya right they didn't. At least they fixed the update system... wait they did fix the update system right ? Well at least they added a Linux cli subsystem for all the developers and sysadmin types.

    When windows does finally die it really will be because MS killed it, through neglect. and greed. Not sure which bites them in the behind more. Almost every misstep the last 10 years COULD have been opportunities to really move windows forward. Cortana is a cool idea... to bad it forces Bing. Edge... ya IE needed to die, but man how can a company with as many resources as MS not manage to put together a decent full featured browser for the day there sales dept announces IE needs to die. DX 12... yep if they didn't lock it to win 10 and designed it to be more dev friendly perhaps Vulkan wouldn't be catching on. Their update system and their file system are both still terrible... and again they have the resources to fix both. They moved all their windows code to a more manageable git system... if they would at some point pull an Apple and replace NTFS with a proper file system they should technically be able to fix their update system. There is no reason updates to your OS should ever take more then a few min once downloaded. I'm starting to ramble but I think I'm saying MS COULD make windows solid... but all they ever do is smear lipstick on it, and try to sell the pig.
     
  33. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    Well the AMDGPU-PRO driver isn't aimed at games anymore (not that it ever really was :) )

    From AMDs own driver download;
    • Pro: recommended for use with Radeon Pro graphics products.
    • All-Open: recommended for use with consumer products.
    The AMDGPU-PRO is really aimed at people using things like Maya, Houdini... and other such software.

    If your just running games the open stack is the official go to now.
     
  34. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger 3.5GB GTX 970 Slayer

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    I meant 2in1 tablets where they are indeed strong.

    And holy. Lol at saying windows is not used much !
     
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  35. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger 3.5GB GTX 970 Slayer

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    Disagreeing is not trolling. Learn to handle opinions that don't match your own before you try to socialize.
     
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  36. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed Gawd

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    If the keyboard is attached, it's a laptop, not a mobile device.
     
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  37. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed Gawd

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    You don't disagree so much as simply claim "Windows is the shitz". :rolleyes:
     
  38. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yes, let us be honest and not drink the kool aid. I want to say there are literally more Windows users than... ever? That's certainly true of gaming. There has never been more Windows gamers than there are now. That won't go on forever, but it hasn't peaked yet either.
     
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  39. dgz

    dgz [H]ardness Supreme

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    Like we needed 10 reasons. My 1070 is only delivering in Doom honestly. Every other modern game is a pain to run. But I am not a moron. This second series is a joke. About half the chip is dedicated to something that's nowhere near ready for prime time. Says enough the lower end series don't even support it haha. At least they're not pulling a 5000 series this time, so that's cool. Remember the 5500 and 5200?

    I am not excited at all. At least the CPU market started moving.
     
  40. 1Nocturnal101

    1Nocturnal101 [H]Lite

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    I'm not really sure Linux gaming beyond certain types is large enough of a community, In most cases Linux is like the bastard of OS's, hardcore even for the hardcore so to speak, I mean at most I see people take abnormally long times setting it up and trouble shooting in which eventually they either give up or finish the setup and never really use the OS. Ideally people do this and say "yeah I use Linux", making themselves appear hardcore.
    Honestly in a PC shop I've had many arguments over years with a few people that insist the majority use Linux and MacOS, which if you are including Smartphones and Tablets then sure, but in a Laptop/Desktop environment is not true by any means. Unless there is a severe movement of people to Linux as a major computing platform it won't be really anything more than a novelty experience.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/218089/global-market-share-of-windows-7/
    MacOS has grown by about 4.5% but in the end Windows still has a >80% lead in the market, while Linux comes in at a skewed number I'll be generous and say around 4% of the market, It really defeats the purpose of the OS if you have to use emulation in order to cheat running applications from another OS this basically defeats the purpose of picking an ecosystem, buying a product you wish was another product.

    Emulation of older consoles and MAME is huge which does inflate the demand for things like the Raspberry Pi, and is less than an Ideal setup process and in general takes way 2 much tinkering time to get running smoothly for the average Joe. PC gaming wise while Valve with Steam is making strides I would say its pretty much the same thing, way to much tinkering just in some cases to make things work. Until Linux gets consumer friendly for the Average Joe it won't become mainstream.