10 Reasons Linux Gamers Might Want to Pass On the NVIDIA RTX Series

IdiotInCharge said:
"I'm not biased, you're biased!"

You're arguing from the statistically vacant position that is the Linux desktop, for a statistically insignificant slice that is Linux gaming.

Valve's pushing, some developers are cooperating, and mostly, no one else cares.

Now, I care- but I have no interest in misrepresenting reality either. What I see is the level of understanding in terms of translation libraries needed to build software like WINE and DXVK increasing to the point that the OS simply no longer matters. Pull the code, compile, and game. Or whatever.

And this isn't important today, not really- what's important is that as we hit further process shrink difficulties, we'll have to rethink software and hardware in order to increase performance, and having all of the understanding needed to glue the existing frameworks together will allow us to do that more quickly.
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Where in this thread have I shown bias against Windows? I've stated that Windows 10 has issues that many are growing tired of, which is factual. However I have in no way shown bias against Windows - Unlike Heatlesssun's comment that Linux is shit for gaming, which it is not. I'm gaming under Linux and my experience is great, from what I read, so are many others.

As for your comment that no one cares, I disagree and would really like to know just what you're basing that assumption on? As soon as Steam Play and Proton were released Google trends highlighted a sudden upward trend in the global number of Linux searches, most based around China. In the various Linux based forums I visit I'm noticing a huge increase in the number of people transitioning from Windows to Linux as a direct result of Proton alone.

There is a massive difference between quoting the facts and outward bias. I prefer not to use Windows as my daily OS of choice, I do have at least one Windows 10 install and I am excited at the prospect of Linux progressing forwards. I do not understand the constant negativity from a certain Windows user in every thread relating to Linux, it is almost like an extreme fear of change and is unjustified and annoying.

I feel that ridding ourselves of close API's designed to be no more than a vendor lock in is a great thing.

Feel free to reply in a friendly and open fashion, please don't let this discussion degrade into pointless personal attacks. ;)
 
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heatlesssun said:
Actually I can do this as I have a Linux partition on my Surface Pro 3. You guys think everyone else is stupid or something I guess.
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They do. Linux users, especially the so called gamers, have a huge superiority complex typically. Best advice is to not engage. Failing that, you need to realize they aren't interested in discussion. They want to fanatically push a niche is for unknown reasons.
 
heatlesssun said:
Indeed and the funny thing is for all the folks that blast me over Linux gaming, I said point blank that Valve HAD to do Steam Play or otherwise Linux PC gaming was going to become less than a rounding error. I'm not saying that Steam Play is a silver bullet or anything though at this time. We'll see where this is in five years or so. Just like we've been looking at Steam support for Linux the last five years. This shit doesn't move fast at all.
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Steam Play and proton are not about increasing the titles available to Linux, we've been over this. The point of Steam Play and Proton is to rid gamers of vendor lock in closed source API's and overzealous DRM. A very simple concept that you just cannot seem to grasp.

Native Linux gaming was growing just fine before Proton.
 
heatlesssun said:
What's being able to play whatever game a person wants have to do with Microsoft? Shadow of the Tomb Raider just came out today. Are you saying that everyone that would like to play that game on their PC is an unnaturally biased Microsoft user?
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Not at all, I'm stating quite factually that you're an unnaturally biased Microsoft user and your opinion should therefore be taken with a hefty dose of salt. ;)
 
Mazzspeed said:
Steam Play and proton are not about increasing the titles available to Linux, we've been over this. The point of Steam Play and Proton is to rid gamers of vendor lock in closed source API's and overzealous DRM. A very simple concept that you just cannot seem to grasp.
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This statement is inherently illogical. The whole point of adding Wine and Windows compatibility technology to Steam Linux is to RUN WINDOWS GAMES. That's all that adding this tech does directly since it requires no developer effort to function. Nothing about Steam Play would have any impact on a developer unless that developer cared about Linux, which most don't.

Mazzspeed said:
Native Linux gaming was growing just fine before Proton.
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For a Linux fan who doesn't care about content sure. For people who actually want to play games absolutely this wasn't and still isn't the case.
 
Mazzspeed said:
Not at all, I'm stating quite factually that you're an unnaturally biased Microsoft user and your opinion should therefore be taken with a hefty dose of salt. ;)
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What does my opinion have to do with the fact that tons of PC gamers want to play games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider? They're far more interested in that than your preaching about OS bias.
 
Frobozz said:
If they're not on Windows (for any number of reasons), they could give it a try.
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He just can't comprehend the undeniable fact that people are over Windows 10, but they still want to game - What's more, they're doing just that despite what Heatlesssun deems important.

People are over locked down API's and people are over overzealous DRM.
 
Frobozz said:
If they're not on Windows (for any number of reasons), they could give it a try.
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Thanks for the link, I was curious to see how well this worked under Proton. I'd be interested in seeing some comparison benchmarks. When I run this at 4k with the same settings except using DX 12 I'm getting 70 FPS but I know the hardware this guy is using is nowhere near mine.
 
Mazzspeed said:
He just can't comprehend the undeniable fact that people are over Windows 10, but they still want to game - What's more, they're doing just that despite what Heatlesssun deems important.
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LOL! The latest Steam survey had Windows 10 at over 60% of ALL Steam users, over 100 times all Linux users. So no, people aren't over Windows 10.

I get that some people don't like Windows 10 or Windows period and that's fine. But really dude, all of your preachiness over Linux PC gaming which is as niche as it gets. You're no "man of the people" when it comes to PC gaming. You're into a really niche thing used only by experts when it comes to PC gaming and average people just wanting to game couldn't care less about something like Steam Play or Proton. For 96%+ Steam gamers already on Windows, Windows compatibility tech for Linux offers NOTHING to them from a gaming perspective.
 
Frobozz said:
If they're not on Windows (for any number of reasons), they could give it a try.
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Quote from the author of the video....' Not yet, will do that at some point though. I'd expect Windows to be 15-20% faster with D3D11, as it is in most of my games.'
Says it all for me, i'll stick with windows until that margin significantly comes down.
 
PsyaNyde said:
Quote from the author of the video....' Not yet, will do that at some point though. I'd expect Windows to be 15-20% faster with D3D11, as it is in most of my games.'
Says it all for me, i'll stick with windows until that margin significantly comes down.
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It would have been a slide show 6 months ago... so I don't think you'll have to wait long. Stay tuned. Also keep in mind this guys is on an older AMD card with open source drivers. If you are using newer hardware and are getting 90 FPS in windows even if it is still dropping 10% that is still a solid 81 FPS in Linux. Guess you would have to decide if that is good enough for you.
 
ChadD said:
It would have been a slide show 6 months ago... so I don't think you'll have to wait long. Stay tuned. Also keep in mind this guys is on an older AMD card with open source drivers. If you are using newer hardware and are getting 90 FPS in windows even if it is still dropping 10% that is still a solid 81 FPS in Linux. Guess you would have to decide if that is good enough for you.
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No its not.
 
ChadD said:
If you are using newer hardware and are getting 90 FPS in windows even if it is still dropping 10% that is still a solid 81 FPS in Linux.
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If it were are hard 10%, or even better just a worst case 10%, and talking about frametimes and not just framerates, then I don't consider that to be too bad for the majority of PC gaming.
 
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IdiotInCharge said:
If it were are hard 10%, or even better just a worst case 10%, and talking about frametimes and not just framerates, then I don't consider that to be too bad for the majority of PC gaming.
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IME I am dropping 10-20% across the board. If using DXVK... the only title I have that uses Vulkan (ok not counting Dota guess that does as well) has a Linux version, I'm going to have to figure out how to force the windows version and still use Proton to see what the gap is. I haven't had any of my library not start. Although I know that is still and issue with some peoples titles.

DXVK is less then a year old... and steam play is a month old now. Nvidia / AMD / Intel have really ramped up their support... Khronos Group has created "unofficial" Vulkan flags to speed DXVK.

I guess I'm saying this is just the start of something. When I first installed DXVK at the beginning of the year I had to fight to get stuff running... and I the performance wasn't much better then wines DX->OGL but at least everything looked bang on. Then the DXVK developer started releasing major updates weekly. (which is why the rumors started that he had Valve backing). I would bet that by Christmas this year the majority of games people care about will all be running easily with single digit performance hits... with a few titles actually showing better FPS in Linux, and a handful of little known titles still having issues.
 
Stoly said:
No its not.
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Fair. No one is forcing you to run Linux. Single to low double digit % performance hits, are going to be more then acceptable for a lot of people that have had it with Windows and Micorosft.

We Linux folk have been working hard for years to make Linux as user friendly as it can be... while hopefully still doing thing in the best possible way. So in the future when most machines come with Linux pre-installed be it Ubuntu or some other distro. Don't worry we will have made it easy enough for you.... and also open enough for you to install your windows 7 back on it if you really want. ;) (I joke man seriously no one is forcing anyone to switch.) haha
 
I prefer quality IPS monitors over gaming monitors, I find a quality panel every bit as important as a 144Hz or simple consumer grade 4k panel - I actually have a 4k panel here that sits on the floor, unused. I also hate 16:9 and prefer 16:10.

For this reason my displays are 60Hz and running a 980Ti the titles I've ported over from Windows to Linux using Proton achieve far higher than 60FPS, naturally Vulkan titles achieve parity with windows installs once the community and Valve inspect and optimize the configuration - There is a difference between getting the title running and optimizing the title via DXVK/tweaking the drivers over time. In my experience this was also quite often the case with Windows regarding new releases, with many releases feeling more like beta's as opposed to fully polished products 100% ready for retail sale.

I do not game under Linux to make a point or stick it to the man. I run Linux as my daily operating system of choice as I prefer it, I find it faster and better than Windows with far better workflow and I like the fact it looks and behaves 'exactly' how I want it to look and behave. Therefore, when I want downtime and I want to game, naturally I game under Linux and the results achieved by a dedicated community as well as companies like AMD, Nvidia and Valve as well as the Chronos Group in such a short period of time are very impressive.

I see no reason for a Linux user not to run a 2080Ti, I see no reason why it will not be supported in drivers by Nvidia just like every other card they make. I am not at all excited by the prospect of ray tracing and I know, based on long term experience with Nvidia products and gaming, that ray tracing will be nothing more than a low performance concept regarding the 2xxx generation of cards. It is going to take at least another two generations of cards before ray tracing even begins to become a realistic option for gaming, especially considering the gamers with 144Hz monitors and higher.

I see every reason for everyone to skip the 2070/80 due to it's insane pricing, I do not agree with the insane levels of spyware shipped with Nvidia drivers under Windows, spyware that is not present under Linux.

It is for this reason that I believe the linked article is no more than click bait.
 
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First, thanks for taking the time to write that out. I had to put aside the time to read it all, but I'm glad you put the effort into saying this, thanks! :)

1. Do we lose things like X11 forwarding with Wayland? I don't know. I know X is horribly bloated, but as a deep Linux nerd, some of that stuff I think is interesting and valuable, and I'm not sure where that goes with Wayland. (hot seats for example)
2. Oh man there's plenty of lower end games I love playing on Linux! Rise to Ruin is just one.
3. I think you've made some very compelling points here as to why supporting AMD contributes to a better future, since nVidia is just being a ridiculous stick in the mud. Perhaps I should revisit my AMD options, as voting with my dollar can count. ;)
4. That chromebook example and details you presented is really neat!

:)

ChadD said:
1. I do take gaming very seriously. I game on Linux. Things have come a very long way... I am simply not a fan of one hardware manufacturer that on one hand is making some of the best hardware and on the other hand seemingly trying to swing that dick to push the Linux community to support multiple code paths for what seems to be for no other reason then to make their solution run best. If the software community got behind all their closed hocked calls it will likely lead to less work being done on the runner up hardware. Its exactly what they have been doing with game developers directly for years with BS like hair works. Only they have been trying to muscle their way into systems that effect much more then just games.

2. wayland isn't about performance. That is a silly bit of sillyness that got into peoples heads early. Wayland is NOT about performance gains. Yes technically speaking it should be slightly faster... but that isn't really the point. The point was X is not a very ideal way of doing things, it started with one goal and has spiraled to be come the defacto windowing system it was never really designed to be. Wayland is about back end development. You know why touch isn't as good as it should be on Linux... X >.< Its not an ideal system for muti touch devices. Its why the Ubuntu guys started working on MIR they wanted to make phones and tablets... and X sucks for that. X has 4 back end input display models... 2 of them no one anywhere develops anymore but the code and the calls are all their still eating resources and making development more difficult for no real advantage, none of those modes are really designed to accept multiple input points as would be used in a multi touch system.... doing something like that with X involves some extended extensions some hacks and the performance suffers.
Anyway just go through and read the wiki if your not too up on Wayland... its a logical step, it was birthed by X org developers when they recognized X is not ideal long term. They decided it would be easier to start from scratch and address security issues like requiring so much of X to run as Root as well as run as a virtual TTY server ect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)

3. see above. X is a server it is designed with networking at its core. Its first versions where used to display information on remote systems. X is wonderful and all but its frankly extreme overkill for home type desktop machines... and laptop / phone tablet type systems.
If you want to know why it matters and why it for sure matters to Linux gaming in the future. Read this...
https://venturebeat.com/2018/05/08/chrome-os-is-getting-linux-app-support/
ChomeOS uses wayland... that means if they want to allow Chrome users to fire up Linux software in a VM and have their windowing system interact with it in seemless way users would expect they need something like Wayland.
Here is a quote from that article;

Here’s how it works. “We put the Linux app environment within a security sandbox, running inside a virtual machine,” Liu told VentureBeat. “We made sure the user experience is seamless to the user. Whether you use a web app, whether you are using an Android app, or whether you are using a Linux app, the window treatment and the way you launch the app from the launcher is the same.”

The virtual machine is specifically designed for Chromebooks. A Google spokesperson estimated that the VM “starts up in a second.” It also integrates completely with Chromebook features, meaning windows can be moved around and files can be opened directly from apps.

“From a UI perspective, we use Wayland to make sure that it’s completely seamless to the user. You don’t see the windows from the Linux side; it’s just running within a Chrome OS window. For all the window treatment from Chrome OS windows, you get on the Linux side as well.”

To sum that up they are saying their "Linux app" support is basically starting a Linux VM completely sandboxing the Linux program... it is making all its wayland calls which chromeOS reads and converts to their ChromeOS wayland calls. It means an end user sees it running as just another program. Its slick and smooth...and would never work with X, espeically on a chromebook supporting multi touch. It also means if at a future point Google was to add full vulkan support to chromeos and expose it via wayland... steam running this way would be able to access chromeos 3d features with NO issues. It would be slick and require no real work from developers or valve to make it work that way. However as Nvidia doesn't properly support waylands main low level calls... either Google will have to support 2 code paths on their end or Nvidia will simply be a no go for Chrome Book OEMs.

I know right now chromebooks aren't seen as worthy gaming devices. But they could be very soon. (less Nvidia anyway) I am not saying Linux gaming lives or dies by Google... however having said that. Googles chromeos may be the ticket to the main stream crowd Linux has always needed.

4. 5. Yes I agree with you I was just stating for the record that myself I am more likely to kill a night playing darkest dungeon or something instead of overwatch. ;) I get what your saying... the 1070s and 80s deals that are likely to start hitting are tempting no doubt. And yes I know there are thousands of Linux games right now... I have been gaming on Linux for over 10 years. ;) Valve has done a great job getting us a lot of AAA titles the last few years and yes some of the indies have really been putting out some great looking games. (still in general they don't need 1080ti level performance to push 100+ fps) :)
The only game I have been playing on windows at all the last 1-2 years has been star trek online... and I have had that running pretty well with DXVK for months now. It still drops more performance then I would like, but at this point it looks perfect and the performance is decent enough that its playable. For the most part I only bother to boot windows if I'm going to PvP.
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Mazzspeed said:
I see every reason for everyone to skip the 2070/80 due to it's insane pricing, I do not agree with the insane levels of spyware shipped with Nvidia drivers under Windows, spyware that is not present under Linux.

It is for this reason that I believe the linked article is no more than click bait.
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I see every reason to believe the market will decide whether the pricing is insane or not, just like it always has. You may not personally like the pricing, but you - me - and everyone else here crying about prices are a drop in the bucket of this thing called supply and demand, a concept that seems to really elude people lately when GPU pricing comes up.
 
BloodyIron said:
First, thanks for taking the time to write that out. I had to put aside the time to read it all, but I'm glad you put the effort into saying this, thanks! :)

1. Do we lose things like X11 forwarding with Wayland? I don't know. I know X is horribly bloated, but as a deep Linux nerd, some of that stuff I think is interesting and valuable, and I'm not sure where that goes with Wayland. (hot seats for example)
2. Oh man there's plenty of lower end games I love playing on Linux! Rise to Ruin is just one.
3. I think you've made some very compelling points here as to why supporting AMD contributes to a better future, since nVidia is just being a ridiculous stick in the mud. Perhaps I should revisit my AMD options, as voting with my dollar can count. ;)
4. That chromebook example and details you presented is really neat!

:)
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For #1, yes and no. Yes, in that the core wayland protocol doesn't support it. No, because you can still run X (either by itself, nested inside wayland, or with wayland as a client), and there may be an X remote extension added in the future (don't know if anyone is working on that now), or if you're okay with it there are vnc-like remoting options which work on wayland. What I know may be outdated, haven't looked into it in a while.
 
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BloodyIron said:
First, thanks for taking the time to write that out. I had to put aside the time to read it all, but I'm glad you put the effort into saying this, thanks! :)

1. Do we lose things like X11 forwarding with Wayland? I don't know. I know X is horribly bloated, but as a deep Linux nerd, some of that stuff I think is interesting and valuable, and I'm not sure where that goes with Wayland. (hot seats for example)
2. Oh man there's plenty of lower end games I love playing on Linux! Rise to Ruin is just one.
3. I think you've made some very compelling points here as to why supporting AMD contributes to a better future, since nVidia is just being a ridiculous stick in the mud. Perhaps I should revisit my AMD options, as voting with my dollar can count. ;)
4. That chromebook example and details you presented is really neat!

:)
Click to expand...

I don't think X will ever be completely gone. There may always be a place for both... although I would imagine in the future Wayland will be the main, with the xwayland pluging being used to support a ever decreasing number of X software bits.

As for feature parity... it is very close these days.There are developers working on things like network transparency for wayland
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Wayland-Network-Transparency
So to answer your question about forwarding right now, no. But in the future likely... we'll have to see. Its possible that for some uses X will always be the best option.

Going back to what I posted earlier about Google using Wayland in ChromeOS to make their Linux software VM containers look 100% native to end users. I just wanted to point out that a large majority of the Wayland work is being done by Google... and Samsung engineers. Samsung also likes wayland for the same reasons with their whole Dex dock stuff.
 
DPI said:
I see every reason to believe the market will decide whether the pricing is insane or not, just like it always has. You may not personally like the pricing, but you - me - and everyone else here crying about prices are a drop in the bucket of this thing called supply and demand, a concept that seems to really elude people lately when GPU pricing comes up.
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I never said that wouldn't be the case. However, from what I'm reading the card is priced out of the market and in countries outside the US especially where prices are highest I see it floundering in relation to sales.
 
Mazzspeed said:
I never said that wouldn't be the case. However, from what I'm reading the card is priced out of the market and in countries outside the US especially where prices are highest I see it floundering in relation to sales.
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If it doesn't sell, they can take the losses on stock or drop prices.
 
X11 forwarding is not so much about remoting in, it's more about having GUI apps forward their GUI over the network, but the calculations be done on the server. This is actually done quite frequently with Oracle and Primavera applications, just to start.

Nobu said:
For #1, yes and no. Yes, in that the core wayland protocol doesn't support it. No, because you can still run X (either by itself, nested inside wayland, or with wayland as a client), and there may be an X remote extension added in the future (don't know if anyone is working on that now), or if you're okay with it there are vnc-like remoting options which work on wayland. What I know may be outdated, haven't looked into it in a while.
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And, as expected, the Phoronix article was completely wrong in relation to Linux ray tracing support and prior to the launch of the 2xxx series Vulkan 1.1.85 has been released with raytracing, mesh shaders & other new NVIDIA extensions. Backpeddling on behalf of Phoronix themselves for their shortsighted comments.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Vulkan-1.1.85-Released

Leading up to the Turing launch we weren't sure if NVIDIA was going to deliver same-day Vulkan support for RTX/ray-tracing with the GeForce RTX graphics cards or if it was going to be left up to Direct3D 12 on Windows for a while... Fortunately, as already reported, their new driver has Vulkan RTX support. Additionally, the NVX_raytracing extension and other NVIDIA updates made it into today's Vulkan 1.1.85 release.
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