10 Reasons Linux Gamers Might Want to Pass On the NVIDIA RTX Series

[ChadD]

I'm not really sure Linux gaming beyond certain types is large enough of a community, In most cases Linux is like the bastard of OS's, hardcore even for the hardcore so to speak, I mean at most I see people take abnormally long times setting it up and trouble shooting in which eventually they either give up or finish the setup and never really use the OS. Ideally people do this and say "yeah I use Linux", making themselves appear hardcore.
Honestly in a PC shop I've had many arguments over years with a few people that insist the majority use Linux and MacOS, which if you are including Smartphones and Tablets then sure, but in a Laptop/Desktop environment is not true by any means. Unless there is a severe movement of people to Linux as a major computing platform it won't be really anything more than a novelty experience.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/218089/global-market-share-of-windows-7/
MacOS has grown by about 4.5% but in the end Windows still has a >80% lead in the market, while Linux comes in at a skewed number I'll be generous and say around 4% of the market, It really defeats the purpose of the OS if you have to use emulation in order to cheat running applications from another OS this basically defeats the purpose of picking an ecosystem, buying a product you wish was another product.

Emulation of older consoles and MAME is huge which does inflate the demand for things like the Raspberry Pi, and is less than an Ideal setup process and in general takes way 2 much tinkering time to get running smoothly for the average Joe. PC gaming wise while Valve with Steam is making strides I would say its pretty much the same thing, way to much tinkering just in some cases to make things work. Until Linux gets consumer friendly for the Average Joe it won't become mainstream.

I don't know I would say 4% for an OS that isn't sold by OEMs is pretty good. I somehow doubt 4% of those windows users installed their OS onto a blank drive. Linux has an OEM problem. No doubt.

As for Linux posers ya I supposed that's true, but installing Linux is not hard anymore. It hasn't been for a long time now. Its not a science project. lol Installing Ubuntu or Manjaro on a clean machine is smooth and 10x faster then installing windows. Sure there are more options and people spend a ton of time researching distros... and most of the time they pick what is likely the wrong distro for them. Again OEM problem no doubt. (most people should just install ubuntu or manjaro and be happy... instead so many try to run Cent or some other server distro at home ect)

The major consumer focused distros ARE very user friendly. Average users take to distros like Ubuntu or Manajaro with zero issue. They are more familiar to them these days then current versions of windows are if they are coming from 7. I have set plenty of people and offices up on Linux... Chrome/Firefox Libre office/MS office 365 VLC.. spotifty ect all their everyday stuff is there and it all runs very smoothly. The days of new users being required to hit up the terminal for every little thing are long gone. Sure Linux users will still suggest CLI to take care of tons of stuff... and windows users balking at that is just silly, even MS themselves suggest using command / powershell to do a bunch of stuff in windows. Its the easiest fastest most universal way of taking care of many things.

What is required to increase Linux marketshare is actual shipping Linux machines. Most people shouldn't be installing operating systems. Even though Linux and Windows are both easier to install then they where 10 years ago, most people don't understand how things work well enough. Outside of Dell developer machines there aren't really any major well known OEMs shipping Linux, I don't know what it would take to change that. I would imagine it would take a MS move so unpopular with companies like HP and Lenovo for them to rally behind one of the major distros.

 

[1Nocturnal101]

Um RT games are most likely going to be using Vulkan.

Not sure if you have been paying attention... but Via Steam you can now install any windows only game in Linux now. If the game has a vulkan path it runs at least as fast and often faster then windows. Everyone is fawning over how fast windows Doom is on Linux... its because its using Vulkan. From personal experience ya its 3-5% or so faster (the windows version) running under Linux.

Its also possible that developers may choose to use DX12 instead... that also runs just fine in Linux. Valve has been directly support VKD3D for DX12->Vulkan... by the time games are shipping I have no doubt any RT specific flags will be supported. We'll have to wait to see numbers ect... but I don't think support of the feature is a big deal. Its just a few flags in DX 12 of Vulkan... and the DX12 wrapper can easily be updated. (in fact I believe it already has been, Valve is deeper into the development industry then many seem to realize)

Valve is ironing things out... and steam play is shaping up to be a very good solution. Many of us have had our DX games running with very little performance hit for awhile now... but Valve is now making it one click no worries for the masses. Yes the next year or so is going to see the end of the old Linux sucks at gaming arguments. Linux doesn't have enough games ect. Only a few weeks into official beta and a large number of titles are running very smoothly. The few outliers and issues with specific hardware will get smoothed out.

Yeah because in Vulkan games(Those 26 games all of which maybe 5 are actually good games) I need more than 144 fps in Doom? I mean I use an 34 inch Ultrawide 1440p 120htz Gsync monitor and sure you have the 1% lows but unlocking the frames I rarely see anything dip consistently, that 3-5% is nothing really, I would be more concerned with Frame pacing/timing.

"Via Steam you can now install any windows only game in Linux now" - They have a list of compatible games, its not ALL GAMES, last I seen its closer to 20% of Steam games are compatible with the Wine emulation process...…………..SMH

That's fine but setting up Linux to begin with is to much a hastle for the everyday Joe, the gaming portion is only half the equation, the other part is getting people to actually use Linux, and that is <4% of the overall OS marketshare, its a Niche market which is why nobody really supports it other than a couple companies here and there. People can have 1 click gaming, it just works, but the reality is Linux due to the nature of being open sourced is a nightmare to setup and use for the mainstream, there are very few people that install it and actually use it, as for most, I could say its to hardcore for the hardcore crowd.

 

[1Nocturnal101]

I don't know I would say 4% for an OS that isn't sold by OEMs is pretty good. I somehow doubt 4% of those windows users installed their OS onto a blank drive. Linux has an OEM problem. No doubt.

As for Linux posers ya I supposed that's true, but installing Linux is not hard anymore. It hasn't been for a long time now. Its not a science project. lol Installing Ubuntu or Manjaro on a clean machine is smooth and 10x faster then installing windows. Sure there are more options and people spend a ton of time researching distros... and most of the time they pick what is likely the wrong distro for them. Again OEM problem no doubt. (most people should just install ubuntu or manjaro and be happy... instead so many try to run Cent or some other server distro at home ect)

The major consumer focused distros ARE very user friendly. Average users take to distros like Ubuntu or Manajaro with zero issue. They are more familiar to them these days then current versions of windows are if they are coming from 7. I have set plenty of people and offices up on Linux... Chrome/Firefox Libre office/MS office 365 VLC.. spotifty ect all their everyday stuff is there and it all runs very smoothly. The days of new users being required to hit up the terminal for every little thing are long gone. Sure Linux users will still suggest CLI to take care of tons of stuff... and windows users balking at that is just silly, even MS themselves suggest using command / powershell to do a bunch of stuff in windows. Its the easiest fastest most universal way of taking care of many things.

What is required to increase Linux marketshare is actual shipping Linux machines. Most people shouldn't be installing operating systems. Even though Linux and Windows are both easier to install then they where 10 years ago, most people don't understand how things work well enough. Outside of Dell developer machines there aren't really any major well known OEMs shipping Linux, I don't know what it would take to change that. I would imagine it would take a MS move so unpopular with companies like HP and Lenovo for them to rally behind one of the major distros.

Linux isn't hard????? do me a favor and setup a Raspberry Pi for emulation station...……………………….you will easily be able to do it no doubt, now go ask an everyday person to go through all that BS, you will probably get a shove it up your arse halfway through the setup, and the compatibility troubleshoots because a quarter of the games don't want to work, or you have a terrible experience without doing some Linux Foo...…………..I'm speaking from experience on this one, Ive done it as a social experiment several times and get the same response.

"Average users take to distros like Ubuntu or Manajaro with zero issue" If that was the case it would have more marketshare, also the zero issue is blatantly false while Linux has gotten better, you still have to jump through hoops to make some things work properly.

"What is required to increase Linux marketshare is actual shipping Linux machines. Most people shouldn't be installing operating systems." ……………..ERR What???? Linux Machines Asus tried with an entire laptop line......It didn't go so well. Installation in some cases is required maintenance because people lack the ability to use antivirus and go to sketchy Pron sites, 90% of PCs I've had to do software repairs on were because of Pron and although people install antivirus software they for some reason won't run the crap and then get cryptojacked or get the FBI or IRS pay us or we are coming to arrest you virus. I personally recommend a reinstall every 1-3 years to clear out junk and possible infections, as well as clear up the Windows registry from any Driver hangups. Now experienced and handy users can clean that crap up with little effort running a lean machine, for the average mainstream person they don't, the main issue is that Linux is open sourced, so hacking it is easy as f^%$ because every resource is available, Its part of why Android is so easily abused for the same reasoning.

If companies are going to back Linux there has to be a locked down Distro, mostly not open sourced and the act of doing that gets that 4% all up in arms because they can't dissect something in their spare time - If they would do this and actually did the work making it user friendly, then yes you might actually have a product people would use.

 

[ChadD]

Yeah because in Vulkan games(Those 26 games all of which maybe 5 are actually good games) I need more than 144 fps in Doom? I mean I use an 34 inch Ultrawide 1440p 120htz Gsync monitor and sure you have the 1% lows but unlocking the frames I rarely see anything dip consistently, that 3-5% is nothing really, I would be more concerned with Frame pacing/timing.

"Via Steam you can now install any windows only game in Linux now" - They have a list of compatible games, its not ALL GAMES, last I seen its closer to 20% of Steam games are compatible with the Wine emulation process...…………..SMH

That's fine but setting up Linux to begin with is to much a hastle for the everyday Joe, the gaming portion is only half the equation, the other part is getting people to actually use Linux, and that is <4% of the overall OS marketshare, its a Niche market which is why nobody really supports it other than a couple companies here and there. People can have 1 click gaming, it just works, but the reality is Linux due to the nature of being open sourced is a nightmare to setup and use for the mainstream, there are very few people that install it and actually use it, as for most, I could say its to hardcore for the hardcore crowd.

I'm glad you are not in need of any more FPS... I guess developers should just use DX 9 forever ? I'm not sure what your point is honestly. Vulkan is superior to DX... and its cross platform. Not bad things.

You can launch ANY windows game with steam play. There are some that do have issues currently its a 2 week old beta at this point. The white list you are talking about are games Valve said on day one of the beta these are the titles we are telling you will work 100% for everyone try them out. As the beta continues more games will be "white listed".

Also if you read what I posted I agreed with you. Yes Linux is a hassle for everyday joes right now... because the only way every day Joe uses Linux right now is if he INSTALLS an operating system. Something average Joe isn't capable of. Not just Linux, that includes windows. Average Joe can no more install windows then he can Linux. Its beyond most computer users capabilities. Yes people on [H] are capable of installing windows and Linux... but no one that enjoys reading anything on [H] is an average Joe user.

OEMS are the issue... that has always been the case. The average Joe uses the Operating system that came installed on their machine.

PS... WINE is NOT an emulator. That is what W.I.N.E stands for. Its not emulation... its an open source implementation of the windows APIs. There is no emulation going on. DXVK and VKD3D are wrappers for DX 10/11 and 12. They simply convert DX headers to Vulkan ext calls. Every week Valve is updating the wrappers and performance hits drop for most titles. For games like Doom which where white listed it runs Vulkan native... so running it under Linux doesn't use ANY emulation or ANY wrappers, which is why the windows version is running faster under Linux.

 

[ChadD]

Linux isn't hard????? do me a favor and setup a Raspberry Pi for emulation station...……………………….you will easily be able to do it no doubt, now go ask an everyday person to go through all that BS, you will probably get a shove it up your arse halfway through the setup, and the compatibility troubleshoots because a quarter of the games don't want to work, or you have a terrible experience without doing some Linux Foo...…………..I'm speaking from experience on this one, Ive done it as a social experiment several times and get the same response.

"Average users take to distros like Ubuntu or Manajaro with zero issue" If that was the case it would have more marketshare, also the zero issue is blatantly false while Linux has gotten better, you still have to jump through hoops to make some things work properly.

"What is required to increase Linux marketshare is actual shipping Linux machines. Most people shouldn't be installing operating systems." ……………..ERR What???? Linux Machines Asus tried with an entire laptop line......It didn't go so well. Installation in some cases is required maintenance because people lack the ability to use antivirus and go to sketchy Pron sites, 90% of PCs I've had to do software repairs on were because of Pron and although people install antivirus software they for some reason won't run the crap and then get cryptojacked or get the FBI or IRS pay us or we are coming to arrest you virus. I personally recommend a reinstall every 1-3 years to clear out junk and possible infections, as well as clear up the Windows registry from any Driver hangups. Now experienced and handy users can clean that crap up with little effort running a lean machine, for the average mainstream person they don't, the main issue is that Linux is open sourced, so hacking it is easy as f^%$ because every resource is available, Its part of why Android is so easily abused for the same reasoning.

If companies are going to back Linux there has to be a locked down Distro, mostly not open sourced and the act of doing that gets that 4% all up in arms because they can't dissect something in their spare time - If they would do this and actually did the work making it user friendly, then yes you might actually have a product people would use.

Not sure what a resberry pie or ... 10 year old Asus netbooks have to do with anything. Those are not desktop Linux ??? Those are niche hardware examples. Of course I can setup a PI or a 1000+ user Linux server... but I am not average Joe. Neither are you if your reading [H].

 

[Pieter3dnow]

Well that's not true. Windows got better and better over time, then it started sliding backwards. Linux has shown a lot more improvement overall, but it started off in more user-hostile territory also.

Windows is still the bloated operating system with their own browser which has more or less been a steady security risk over the years.

Funny, I feel that way about Linux as does virtually every other computer user on the desktop or tablets. Windows has added lots of things over the years, while Linux just stands still and implodes with rare steps forward, forever like a mammoth in a tar pit.

Feelings trumps facts I guess these days..

 

[Dman014]

Like we needed 10 reasons. My 1070 is only delivering in Doom honestly. Every other modern game is a pain to run. But I am not a moron. This second series is a joke. About half the chip is dedicated to something that's nowhere near ready for prime time. Says enough the lower end series don't even support it haha. At least they're not pulling a 5000 series this time, so that's cool. Remember the 5500 and 5200?

I am not excited at all. At least the CPU market started moving.

What I dont understand though if gaming is your main PC use is the people who complain about how expensive the new GPU's are, but then spend almost 2k on a threadripper that will barely help your games if at all.

 

[Dman014]

linux.....gamers???? so Dota

 

[ManofGod]

Windows is still the bloated operating system with their own browser which has more or less been a steady security risk over the years.

Feelings trumps facts I guess these days..

"Facts"

 

[tetris42]

Windows is still the bloated operating system with their own browser which has more or less been a steady security risk over the years.

You were saying Windows hasn't gotten any better in 30 years. I remember Win 3.1 being annoying, Win9x being a BSOD machine. XP was a breath of fresh air, but eventually became more of a security risk. Since I've had 7, that hasn't been an issue for me either. Now in 10, the user is losing basic rights people used to take for granted, so that's going in the opposite direction. I'm not saying Windows isn't bloated, but to say it hasn't improved at ALL in 30 years is just hyperbole.

 

[ChadD]

You were saying Windows hasn't gotten any better in 30 years. I remember Win 3.1 being annoying, Win9x being a BSOD machine. XP was a breath of fresh air, but eventually became more of a security risk. Since I've had 7, that hasn't been an issue for me either. Now in 10, the user is losing basic rights people used to take for granted, so that's going in the opposite direction. I'm not saying Windows isn't bloated, but to say it hasn't improved at ALL in 30 years is just hyperbole.

30 years is going back a bit far... but from what I'm hearing from you it is very fair to say since win7 release. So 10 years is the correct number for years windows development has stalled.

 

[ChadD]

What I dont understand though if gaming is your main PC use is the people who complain about how expensive the new GPU's are, but then spend almost 2k on a threadripper that will barely help your games if at all.

Well first... I don't think their are long lines of people running thread rippers. Secondly anyone buying a thread ripper I really hope is planning to use it for a lot more then just games. So I guess I agree with you on that.

Ryzen 5/7 are more then capable gaming chips.

A Ryzen 7 2700x will set one back $420 CND dollars. $290 CND for a Ryzen 5 2600x.

So I can get a top of the line Ryzen 7... a X470 MB... 16gb of good ram... a 500GB Samsung970 m2... a new case and a decent power supply for around $1100-1200 Canadian. Or the cost of a one 2080.

A 2080ti should cost me $1700 Canadian dollars.

That is absolutely bat shit crazy.

 

[Mazzspeed]

If all you had ever used was Linux from day one, Windows would be 'hard'.

 

[Todd Walter]

30 years is going back a bit far... but from what I'm hearing from you it is very fair to say since win7 release. So 10 years is the correct number for years windows development has stalled.

19 years is about right; the GDI vulnerability existed in Windows since '95 so there's some cruft in there.

 

[ChadD]

19 years is about right; the GDI vulnerability existed in Windows since '95 so there's some cruft in there.

I was being nice to the MS defender. Hey they been using the same terrible file system for 25 years. I don't feel they have come all that far either. New coats of paint... a few nice things that sometimes work. But I agree with you the same rickety bones under all of it since NT.

 

[cjcox]

Good thing I don't hate Microsoft enough to suffer Linux. Looking at the market share statistics, Linux should pass windows use by year 3150.

I know you meant this to be somewhat serious, but it's likely not true at all. Unless, you're just looking at high end gaming *only*. Almost everything runs on Linux nowadays, not Windows.

In other words, I understand what you meant, but Linux dominates overall, not Windows.

 

[/dev/null]

This is not accurate in the slightest and we both know it.

Try installing something created for RHEL into a Ubuntu install. Just because you know how to remove the files you need, update the ones required and repackage it does not mean it's a cake walk.

It's the same reason we have different versions of Linux software when I go to download a file.

I've done this many times with alien, actually... it doesn't always work perfectly but most of the time it's passable.

 

[motomonkey]

Yeah, its only been like 30+ years since I first read that Linux was taking over windows. It can't be much longer, right?

That’s a neat trick considering Linux isn’t 30 years old yet, but hyperbole aside yeah, any year now....

 

[Stoly]

That’s a neat trick considering Linux isn’t 30 years old yet, but hyperbole aside yeah, any year now....

I could swear I was using linux back in the late 80's but the project started in 91. I got mixed up with minix. Anyway I missed by 3 years.

 

[Todd Walter]

I could swear I was using linux back in the late 80's but the project started in 91. I got mixed up with minix. Anyway I missed by 3 years.

The BSDs were more popular in the late 80s and everyone thought their pedigree would carry them forward for much longer than they did. IIRC, they had a functional Soundblaster driver before Linux did. Walnut Creek CDs were our 'high-bandwidth' download device of choice. Good times, chaotic and fun.

 

[BloodyIron]

I see plenty of people still using nVidia cards in Linux, so while some people _prefer_ AMD's open drivers, I don't see it being a major game changer for people's decisions on which cards to buy.

It also doesn't help that Vega cards are hard to get, kinda expensive, and we still need to see a refresh of the line.

I myself am on the fence, but I'm leaning more towards nVidia because I don't see AMD coming out with new cards in time for me to want to buy. And the current options don't appear to be "beefy" enough to warrant my dollars, meanwhile nVidia GPUs on the market do give me the "beef" I want, and the proprietary drivers actually work too. (to be clear, the AMDGPU drivers work really well too, I'm more saying I'm not exactly compromising on functionality with nVidia drivers).

Also, the AMD open source drivers is several years old now. So, not exactly "new", but it is a very good thing.

nVidia doing silly driver stuff doesn't surprise me. But just like GPP, not sure if that actually impacts me currently

Which is why many Linux users have sworn off Nvidia.

AMDs open move is fairly new to be honest. They have went all in though and really supported the open source team, including dedicating AMD staff to Linux open source driver development. AMD has been working together with other Linux developers to create and implement open standards. Nvidia is always pushing their own way of doing things which are often ass backwards like the eglstreams junk.

If your not up on the eglstreams controversy and how Nvidia has tried to muscle their way into the very fabric of Linux. Here is an older blog from Martin Floser he was for years the maintainer of KDE Kwin.(think he moved on last year)
https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-or-not/

 

[ChadD]

I see plenty of people still using nVidia cards in Linux, so while some people _prefer_ AMD's open drivers, I don't see it being a major game changer for people's decisions on which cards to buy.

It also doesn't help that Vega cards are hard to get, kinda expensive, and we still need to see a refresh of the line.

I myself am on the fence, but I'm leaning more towards nVidia because I don't see AMD coming out with new cards in time for me to want to buy. And the current options don't appear to be "beefy" enough to warrant my dollars, meanwhile nVidia GPUs on the market do give me the "beef" I want, and the proprietary drivers actually work too. (to be clear, the AMDGPU drivers work really well too, I'm more saying I'm not exactly compromising on functionality with nVidia drivers).

Also, the AMD open source drivers is several years old now. So, not exactly "new", but it is a very good thing.

nVidia doing silly driver stuff doesn't surprise me. But just like GPP, not sure if that actually impacts me currently

I am running NV myself at the moment. I won't be buying another NV card for a long time though after all the BS they have been pulling in general not just in regards to Linux. I am not a big fan of running their closed source driver.... eventually though something is going to have to give. Nvidia keeps refusing to play nice with open standards... which makes it impossible for projects like Wayland to properly support Nvidia hardware. As Martin Floser was saying in his blog post I linked... they are basically suggesting 2 different code paths at a very low level of the graphics stack. Which doubles the amount of work for open source teams working on those projects. The reason for the second code path is to support a "feature" of dubious advantage. They are really just pushing a different way of doing things for no technical reason... the only reason to do it that way is to increase complication of the stack and potentially degrade performance of competing open solutions.

If I was going to go buy a card right now I would just find a good deal on a 580... the difference between 580 and the vegas is hard to justify the added cost imo. The vega refresh will be worth looking at I'm sure... just my opinion. No doubt a 1080 right now is the fastest as long as you use their closed driver and stick to the X window system.

https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2017/10/plasmawayland-and-nvidia-2017-edition/
Here is his follow up a year later From last October.

Nvidia has been working to get eglstreams into Gnomes mutter compostior. Very few distros use it, and default to X when Nvidia is used. You can get it up and running though and it runs like complete garbage. I have no idea why Nvidia is sticking to the eglstreams crap. If they would simply adjust their driver to use gbm as Intel/AMD/PowerVR/ARM there would be no issues and wayland / mir ect wouldn't require multiple code paths.

Anyway for myself considering how much is in flux right now with Linux gaming... I'm going to make my old card limp along for awhile until I see what AMD has in terms of a Vega refresh. If I'm being honest with myself I am a mid range GPU guy... I'm not buying a 2080, I'm not even buying a 1080 unless someone offers me a brand new card for a couple hundred bucks or something. lol

 

[BloodyIron]

1. How exactly, day to day, does the nVidia blob driver impact you? For me, I don't see any real downsides to using it.
2. I really haven't seen a tangible, good, reason to care about Wayland over X. I know it's tidier code, and stuff like that, but I haven't yet seen something about it's goals that actually has any real impact to me, or things I, or really others, care about.
3. I know that nVidia has done stupid things for the Linux environment before, but it seems like the driver stack, from a performance perspective, is way better than it's been long years past.
4. The 580 seems to stack up about at the 1060 level. For me, I think I may be more interested in a 1070, or a 2070, depending on how those pan out. I may consider a 580 as an alternative, not sure, but it would be nice if AMD had good GPU model options above that, that weren't just seemingly "beta" GPUs like Vega 56/64 (they seem kind of half-assed, even though they operate like a finished product). The product liineup just isn't as easy to wrap your head around vs the nVidia lineup, so it makes purchasing decisions confusing.
5. I'm not really seeing Gaming on Linux development even touching Wayland, so I am still skeptical on the real-world benefit of such things. Even on AMD.

I am running NV myself at the moment. I won't be buying another NV card for a long time though after all the BS they have been pulling in general not just in regards to Linux. I am not a big fan of running their closed source driver.... eventually though something is going to have to give. Nvidia keeps refusing to play nice with open standards... which makes it impossible for projects like Wayland to properly support Nvidia hardware. As Martin Floser was saying in his blog post I linked... they are basically suggesting 2 different code paths at a very low level of the graphics stack. Which doubles the amount of work for open source teams working on those projects. The reason for the second code path is to support a "feature" of dubious advantage. They are really just pushing a different way of doing things for no technical reason... the only reason to do it that way is to increase complication of the stack and potentially degrade performance of competing open solutions.

If I was going to go buy a card right now I would just find a good deal on a 580... the difference between 580 and the vegas is hard to justify the added cost imo. The vega refresh will be worth looking at I'm sure... just my opinion. No doubt a 1080 right now is the fastest as long as you use their closed driver and stick to the X window system.

https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2017/10/plasmawayland-and-nvidia-2017-edition/
Here is his follow up a year later From last October.

Nvidia has been working to get eglstreams into Gnomes mutter compostior. Very few distros use it, and default to X when Nvidia is used. You can get it up and running though and it runs like complete garbage. I have no idea why Nvidia is sticking to the eglstreams crap. If they would simply adjust their driver to use gbm as Intel/AMD/PowerVR/ARM there would be no issues and wayland / mir ect wouldn't require multiple code paths.

Anyway for myself considering how much is in flux right now with Linux gaming... I'm going to make my old card limp along for awhile until I see what AMD has in terms of a Vega refresh. If I'm being honest with myself I am a mid range GPU guy... I'm not buying a 2080, I'm not even buying a 1080 unless someone offers me a brand new card for a couple hundred bucks or something. lol

 

[ChadD]

1. How exactly, day to day, does the nVidia blob driver impact you? For me, I don't see any real downsides to using it.
2. I really haven't seen a tangible, good, reason to care about Wayland over X. I know it's tidier code, and stuff like that, but I haven't yet seen something about it's goals that actually has any real impact to me, or things I, or really others, care about.
3. I know that nVidia has done stupid things for the Linux environment before, but it seems like the driver stack, from a performance perspective, is way better than it's been long years past.
4. The 580 seems to stack up about at the 1060 level. For me, I think I may be more interested in a 1070, or a 2070, depending on how those pan out. I may consider a 580 as an alternative, not sure, but it would be nice if AMD had good GPU model options above that, that weren't just seemingly "beta" GPUs like Vega 56/64 (they seem kind of half-assed, even though they operate like a finished product). The product liineup just isn't as easy to wrap your head around vs the nVidia lineup, so it makes purchasing decisions confusing.
5. I'm not really seeing Gaming on Linux development even touching Wayland, so I am still skeptical on the real-world benefit of such things. Even on AMD.

First not everything is actually about gaming. I appreciate being able to game in Linux these days but its hardly the only thing everyone should be concerned about.

X has to copy frame buffers ... which is why the Nvidia driver for instance has an option to force full composition pipelines. A major issue with NV is how it acts strangely with some DEs composition systems. Yes the major ones like Gnomes mutter have work arounds but tearing is an issue that pops up with X. I don't have major issues with X its reliable and works... but yes its not the cleanest solution and from a technical standpoint has some draw backs that can't be fixed. X also has some security issues due to the way it connects through a Unix virtual port.

The community as a whole came up with a solution... that 1,000s of independent companies/developers agreed on things for the most part is amazing. They have implemented it... Intel AMD the android integrated suppliers like powervrs and ARM mali solutions have all coded their drivers to support the move. It means code used for android chrome gnome kde or some fly by night in his basement developer that wants to code their own XFCE Fork or something. Its one code path that everyone supports and you don't have to OWN every manufacturers bit of hardware to code for it. If you want to take the XFCE DE code today and go to town on it... and implement wayland. Even if all you ever do is test it on an integrated Intel running laptop... that code should work just fine on AMD, or even on an ARM GPU if you compiled it for arm64. Nvidia is needlessly complicating things, which frankly most people find just bizarre. I mean if they ever decide they want to sell their ARM chips for use in mobile devices again you would think they would want all the code already in the wild to just work. lol

As for 580 not stacking up... hey if your wanting 4k... none of those are going to do anyway... and at 1080p I don't really see the difference between 90 FPS out of a 580 vs 95-100 out of a 1070. I get your point though. I'm not picking up a 580 right now myself... I'll wait for the vega refresh. For me though even if that is a bust... I refuse to support Nvidia any longer. I would rather game at 1080p. To be honest though I tend to enjoy indie games RPGs and I really don't care about the latest version of battlefield ect.

 

[Nobu]

First not everything is actually about gaming. I appreciate being able to game in Linux these days but its hardly the only thing everyone should be concerned about.

X has to copy frame buffers ... which is why the Nvidia driver for instance has an option to force full composition pipelines. A major issue with NV is how it acts strangely with some DEs composition systems. Yes the major ones like Gnomes mutter have work arounds but tearing is an issue that pops up with X. I don't have major issues with X its reliable and works... but yes its not the cleanest solution and from a technical standpoint has some draw backs that can't be fixed. X also has some security issues due to the way it connects through a Unix virtual port.

The community as a whole came up with a solution... that 1,000s of independent companies/developers agreed on things for the most part is amazing. They have implemented it... Intel AMD the android integrated suppliers like powervrs and ARM mali solutions have all coded their drivers to support the move. It means code used for android chrome gnome kde or some fly by night in his basement developer that wants to code their own XFCE Fork or something. Its one code path that everyone supports and you don't have to OWN every manufacturers bit of hardware to code for it. If you want to take the XFCE DE code today and go to town on it... and implement wayland. Even if all you ever do is test it on an integrated Intel running laptop... that code should work just fine on AMD, or even on an ARM GPU if you compiled it for arm64. Nvidia is needlessly complicating things, which frankly most people find just bizarre. I mean if they ever decide they want to sell their ARM chips for use in mobile devices again you would think they would want all the code already in the wild to just work. lol

As for 580 not stacking up... hey if your wanting 4k... none of those are going to do anyway... and at 1080p I don't really see the difference between 90 FPS out of a 580 vs 95-100 out of a 1070. I get your point though. I'm not picking up a 580 right now myself... I'll wait for the vega refresh. For me though even if that is a bust... I refuse to support Nvidia any longer. I would rather game at 1080p. To be honest though I tend to enjoy indie games RPGs and I really don't care about the latest version of battlefield ect.

Fwiw, I think their arm (mali?) graphics driver works with wayland, they just haven't made their Linux x86 driver compatible for whatever corporate reason you can think of.

 

[KazeoHin]

How much graphical power do you need to run a command-line terminal?

 

[BloodyIron]

1. Just because I'm talking about gaming centric things doesn't mean it's the only thing that needs effort. But we need to start taking gaming seriously. Even small things, like having each DE with the ability to turn off mouse acceleration with a nice GUI setting.
2. How exactly does Wayland stack up for gaming performance vs X?
3. The portability is neat, what about the current system makes such things not so poortable?
4. I game on 120hz or higher monitors, so being able to push over 120FPS regularly gives me a much better gaming experience. And I'd like to do that in 1080P now, and maybe 1440P tomorrow. 4K, well, maybe the 2k generation, or if AMD gets their next thing out?
5. There's lots of beautiful, graphically taxing, games out there that aren't "AAA" titles. Seriously, there's thousands of games to play on Linux, the ones with the big budgets typically aren't worth it/fun.

First not everything is actually about gaming. I appreciate being able to game in Linux these days but its hardly the only thing everyone should be concerned about.

X has to copy frame buffers ... which is why the Nvidia driver for instance has an option to force full composition pipelines. A major issue with NV is how it acts strangely with some DEs composition systems. Yes the major ones like Gnomes mutter have work arounds but tearing is an issue that pops up with X. I don't have major issues with X its reliable and works... but yes its not the cleanest solution and from a technical standpoint has some draw backs that can't be fixed. X also has some security issues due to the way it connects through a Unix virtual port.

The community as a whole came up with a solution... that 1,000s of independent companies/developers agreed on things for the most part is amazing. They have implemented it... Intel AMD the android integrated suppliers like powervrs and ARM mali solutions have all coded their drivers to support the move. It means code used for android chrome gnome kde or some fly by night in his basement developer that wants to code their own XFCE Fork or something. Its one code path that everyone supports and you don't have to OWN every manufacturers bit of hardware to code for it. If you want to take the XFCE DE code today and go to town on it... and implement wayland. Even if all you ever do is test it on an integrated Intel running laptop... that code should work just fine on AMD, or even on an ARM GPU if you compiled it for arm64. Nvidia is needlessly complicating things, which frankly most people find just bizarre. I mean if they ever decide they want to sell their ARM chips for use in mobile devices again you would think they would want all the code already in the wild to just work. lol

As for 580 not stacking up... hey if your wanting 4k... none of those are going to do anyway... and at 1080p I don't really see the difference between 90 FPS out of a 580 vs 95-100 out of a 1070. I get your point though. I'm not picking up a 580 right now myself... I'll wait for the vega refresh. For me though even if that is a bust... I refuse to support Nvidia any longer. I would rather game at 1080p. To be honest though I tend to enjoy indie games RPGs and I really don't care about the latest version of battlefield ect.

 

[ChadD]

1. Just because I'm talking about gaming centric things doesn't mean it's the only thing that needs effort. But we need to start taking gaming seriously. Even small things, like having each DE with the ability to turn off mouse acceleration with a nice GUI setting.
2. How exactly does Wayland stack up for gaming performance vs X?
3. The portability is neat, what about the current system makes such things not so poortable?
4. I game on 120hz or higher monitors, so being able to push over 120FPS regularly gives me a much better gaming experience. And I'd like to do that in 1080P now, and maybe 1440P tomorrow. 4K, well, maybe the 2k generation, or if AMD gets their next thing out?
5. There's lots of beautiful, graphically taxing, games out there that aren't "AAA" titles. Seriously, there's thousands of games to play on Linux, the ones with the big budgets typically aren't worth it/fun.

1. I do take gaming very seriously. I game on Linux. Things have come a very long way... I am simply not a fan of one hardware manufacturer that on one hand is making some of the best hardware and on the other hand seemingly trying to swing that dick to push the Linux community to support multiple code paths for what seems to be for no other reason then to make their solution run best. If the software community got behind all their closed hocked calls it will likely lead to less work being done on the runner up hardware. Its exactly what they have been doing with game developers directly for years with BS like hair works. Only they have been trying to muscle their way into systems that effect much more then just games.

2. wayland isn't about performance. That is a silly bit of sillyness that got into peoples heads early. Wayland is NOT about performance gains. Yes technically speaking it should be slightly faster... but that isn't really the point. The point was X is not a very ideal way of doing things, it started with one goal and has spiraled to be come the defacto windowing system it was never really designed to be. Wayland is about back end development. You know why touch isn't as good as it should be on Linux... X >.< Its not an ideal system for muti touch devices. Its why the Ubuntu guys started working on MIR they wanted to make phones and tablets... and X sucks for that. X has 4 back end input display models... 2 of them no one anywhere develops anymore but the code and the calls are all their still eating resources and making development more difficult for no real advantage, none of those modes are really designed to accept multiple input points as would be used in a multi touch system.... doing something like that with X involves some extended extensions some hacks and the performance suffers.
Anyway just go through and read the wiki if your not too up on Wayland... its a logical step, it was birthed by X org developers when they recognized X is not ideal long term. They decided it would be easier to start from scratch and address security issues like requiring so much of X to run as Root as well as run as a virtual TTY server ect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)

3. see above. X is a server it is designed with networking at its core. Its first versions where used to display information on remote systems. X is wonderful and all but its frankly extreme overkill for home type desktop machines... and laptop / phone tablet type systems.
If you want to know why it matters and why it for sure matters to Linux gaming in the future. Read this...
https://venturebeat.com/2018/05/08/chrome-os-is-getting-linux-app-support/
ChomeOS uses wayland... that means if they want to allow Chrome users to fire up Linux software in a VM and have their windowing system interact with it in seemless way users would expect they need something like Wayland.
Here is a quote from that article;

Here’s how it works. “We put the Linux app environment within a security sandbox, running inside a virtual machine,” Liu told VentureBeat. “We made sure the user experience is seamless to the user. Whether you use a web app, whether you are using an Android app, or whether you are using a Linux app, the window treatment and the way you launch the app from the launcher is the same.”

The virtual machine is specifically designed for Chromebooks. A Google spokesperson estimated that the VM “starts up in a second.” It also integrates completely with Chromebook features, meaning windows can be moved around and files can be opened directly from apps.

“From a UI perspective, we use Wayland to make sure that it’s completely seamless to the user. You don’t see the windows from the Linux side; it’s just running within a Chrome OS window. For all the window treatment from Chrome OS windows, you get on the Linux side as well.”

To sum that up they are saying their "Linux app" support is basically starting a Linux VM completely sandboxing the Linux program... it is making all its wayland calls which chromeOS reads and converts to their ChromeOS wayland calls. It means an end user sees it running as just another program. Its slick and smooth...and would never work with X, espeically on a chromebook supporting multi touch. It also means if at a future point Google was to add full vulkan support to chromeos and expose it via wayland... steam running this way would be able to access chromeos 3d features with NO issues. It would be slick and require no real work from developers or valve to make it work that way. However as Nvidia doesn't properly support waylands main low level calls... either Google will have to support 2 code paths on their end or Nvidia will simply be a no go for Chrome Book OEMs.

I know right now chromebooks aren't seen as worthy gaming devices. But they could be very soon. (less Nvidia anyway) I am not saying Linux gaming lives or dies by Google... however having said that. Googles chromeos may be the ticket to the main stream crowd Linux has always needed.

4. 5. Yes I agree with you I was just stating for the record that myself I am more likely to kill a night playing darkest dungeon or something instead of overwatch. I get what your saying... the 1070s and 80s deals that are likely to start hitting are tempting no doubt. And yes I know there are thousands of Linux games right now... I have been gaming on Linux for over 10 years. Valve has done a great job getting us a lot of AAA titles the last few years and yes some of the indies have really been putting out some great looking games. (still in general they don't need 1080ti level performance to push 100+ fps)
The only game I have been playing on windows at all the last 1-2 years has been star trek online... and I have had that running pretty well with DXVK for months now. It still drops more performance then I would like, but at this point it looks perfect and the performance is decent enough that its playable. For the most part I only bother to boot windows if I'm going to PvP.

 

[M76]

If you choose your games based on their availabilty on linux then I can't really consider you a gamer. You're an evangelist trying to make ends meet without diverging from the faith.

 

[/dev/null]

If you choose your games based on their availabilty on linux then I can't really consider you a gamer. You're an evangelist trying to make ends meet without diverging from the faith.

This post doesn't make any sense, IMHO.

"If you choose your games on PS Vita, you aren't really a gamer" (Because only people who choose $myplatform are real gamers!)
"If you choose your games on XBOX One X, you aren't really a gamer!" (Because only people who game on PC are real gamers!)
"If you choose games only available on PC, you aren't a real gamer" (Because real gamers have a dedicated locked system to prevent cheating that is easy to hook up to the TV).

Don't these all sound silly?

In any of the above listed platforms (linux included) there are MORE games available than you could ever play in your lifetime.

 

[tetris42]

Which is why many Linux users have sworn off Nvidia.

AMDs open move is fairly new to be honest. They have went all in though and really supported the open source team, including dedicating AMD staff to Linux open source driver development. AMD has been working together with other Linux developers to create and implement open standards. Nvidia is always pushing their own way of doing things which are often ass backwards like the eglstreams junk.

If your not up on the eglstreams controversy and how Nvidia has tried to muscle their way into the very fabric of Linux. Here is an older blog from Martin Floser he was for years the maintainer of KDE Kwin.(think he moved on last year)
https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-or-not/

Not trying to be off topic, but since you're talking about AMD on Linux, do Linux AMD drivers support driver forced antialiasing like Nvidia's do? In other words, if a game doesn't support it, can it be forced in X via drivers for some titles?

 

[M76]

This post doesn't make any sense, IMHO.

"If you choose your games on PS Vita, you aren't really a gamer" (Because only people who choose $myplatform are real gamers!)
"If you choose your games on XBOX One X, you aren't really a gamer!" (Because only people who game on PC are real gamers!)
"If you choose games only available on PC, you aren't a real gamer" (Because real gamers have a dedicated locked system to prevent cheating that is easy to hook up to the TV).

Don't these all sound silly?

In any of the above listed platforms (linux included) there are MORE games available than you could ever play in your lifetime.

No, all sound like someone who makes a brand choice before making a gaming choice.

Linux is not a desirable choice for gaming. So yes I believe linux gamers are more activists than gamers. They don't choose linux as a gaming platform, they try to game on it because they're trying to prove that it is possible. I mean you can probably cook a meal with a swiss army knife and a kettle, but I'd rather choose a fully equipped kitchen if I want to be a chef.

 

[/dev/null]

No, all sound like someone who makes a brand choice before making a gaming choice.

Linux is not a desirable choice for gaming. So yes I believe linux gamers are more activists than gamers. They don't choose linux as a gaming platform, they try to game on it because they're trying to prove that it is possible. I mean you can probably cook a meal with a swiss army knife and a kettle, but I'd rather choose a fully equipped kitchen if I want to be a chef.

I've known people who have chosen Linux as a gaming platform due to OS cost, steam machines, etc...so yeah people do choose it as a gaming platform.

 

[heatlesssun]

I've known people who have chosen Linux as a gaming platform due to OS cost,

Sure one can save some money upfront when building a DIY system on an OS license. But down the line it's not only possible but perhaps even probable that whatever savings one got initially are canceled out by incompatibility issues or the complexity of getting compatibility tech working. Even if one is running Linux because it provides them a better gaming experience, you'd already have to be a Linux expert to know that.

 

[ChadD]

Not trying to be off topic, but since you're talking about AMD on Linux, do Linux AMD drivers support driver forced antialiasing like Nvidia's do? In other words, if a game doesn't support it, can it be forced in X via drivers for some titles?

Via the terminal or steam launcher yes. I haven't tested which flags work but I do believe they are working. When they finally do get a proper control panel working it should be able to send those flags.

They removed the option flag MSAA awhile back... but considering how it breaks a lot of games the way most popular engines render now days that is understandable. MLAA flags do work with most AMD cards from what I understand.

https://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=RadeonSI-EQAA-Mesa-18.2

They have been doing a lot of work on it the last few months... hopefully they figure out the control panel situation and it should be made more usable hopefully.

 

[ChadD]

Sure one can save some money upfront when building a DIY system on an OS license. But down the line it's not only possible but perhaps even probable that whatever savings one got initially are canceled out by incompatibility issues or the complexity of getting compatibility tech working. Even if one is running Linux because it provides them a better gaming experience, you'd already have to be a Linux expert to know that.

People choose Linux not mainly because of the "cost" of the OS. Ya MS charges a couple bucks for windows so what. The "cost" of running windows is having to run fing windows.

I know you don't like it but Linux is evolving... and its really NOT harder to use then windows is. It is different sure but not harder. The its HARD you'll have to Command Line everything (like using a terminal is HARD lmao) You'll have issues its terrible hard work. Its all a bunch of FUD.

Installing Linux games via steam is as easy as click and go... and Steam itself is click and go if your distro doesn't install with it already installed. Steam play is not click and go for every windows game yet... but the ones that work are, and more and more titles become smooth click and go entries with every patch.

For most average users Linux is easier to use then windows. For now they are required to install an OS which most average users aren't all that good at... but give a user a installed and working copy of windows and Linux... Linux is easier.

 

[heatlesssun]

I know you don't like it but Linux is evolving... and its really NOT harder to use then windows is. It is different sure but not harder. The its HARD you'll have to Command Line everything (like using a terminal is HARD lmao) You'll have issues its terrible hard work. Its all a bunch of FUD.

Everything has it's strengths and weaknesses, period. Linux is evolving, hell everything is evolving. Throwing a bunch on Windows compatibility tech on top of Linux doesn't make it a better platform for gaming that Windows but it does help with the low content availability. I'm just practical about it. Bought Shadow of the Tomb Raider yesterday. Click, install, run, 4k awesomeness. No need for a bunch compatibility tech that may or may not work.

 

[motomonkey]

If you choose your games based on their availabilty on linux then I can't really consider you a gamer. You're an evangelist trying to make ends meet without diverging from the faith.

 

[Stoly]

I won't talk for the average Joe, but for me gaming is easier in windows. No contest there. Just take a look at the thousands of threads discussing game troubleshooting on WINE. Sure windows has issues too, but those issues will also exist under WINE anyway.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

A note on ReFS, Microsoft's 'evolving' filesystem: it's actually getting better for storage.

Further, Storage Spaces is actually pretty damn good, even with NTFS.

I just spun up XigmaNAS- OpenMediaVault's ZFS implementation (native or Proxmox kernal) doesn't support SSD caching!- and I'm about ready to just go back to Storage Spaces. Fast and seamless. If I can get ReFS to work too, I'm golden.