Switch From Windows to Linux

ManofGod said:
Average users will immediately notice the difference when their programs will not install. It does not take a genius to understand that it did not work with Windows RT and it would not work today, either.
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Their programs will install just fine. If you haven't noticed MS is working double time to replace their old crap API stuff with new cross platform stuff.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/10/12/microsoft_xlang/

For really old stuff, there is nothing stopping them make a translation layer as they did for yes Windows RT. Frankly do you really think at this point MS gives a shit about developers not using their approved windows store friendly APIs ?

MS wants a walled garden as much as Apple and Google... as long as they continue to run their old micro kernel they will never really have it. I have never suggested MS would move to a FOSS version of windows, their linuxed up verison of windows will be the most locked down version of windows they have made yet. All current software will run just fine MS snapped up Kenny Kerr and his WinRT... and they have him working on completely cross platform compilers for their libraries right now.
 
GoodBoy said:
Lol. Microsoft makes big $$ with enterprise licenses and support. They'd be stupid to give all that money up.
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Who said Microsoft was going to give up licensing money? MS doesn't make the real money on OS but licensing software, often per core. That's not going to change with a swap to Linux with a Windows-like DE. The OS will be dropped but the parts they always charge for will still be sold/licensed just like now. However, the overhead will be considerably reduced by getting rid of almost all teams working on the OS side.

No, MS can't charge for the OS but it can charge for any other software as well as support contracts so I have no idea where you came up with your statement. What is your reasoning for saying MS would be giving up money? I'd like to know how you have come to that conclusion since it doesn't follow any logical path.
 
GoodBoy said:
Lol. Microsoft makes big $$ with enterprise licenses and support. They'd be stupid to give all that money up.



Let me fix that for you:

Windows is far from the software junkpile/wasteland Linux users believe it to be and the biggest problem with desktop computing in general - Is users.



When, in 2003? I think I've had 1 issue with nVidia drivers, and it might have been more than a decade ago.. (fan speed issue), and I found the answer here on [H] (google would have probably worked too, but not 'substantial' google... ). Never had AV mess with launchers, and virus are not a big threat anymore. It's malware and 1 good malware app is all you need. The chrome browser is constantly improving protections from nasty or hacked websites, and runs in a sandbox.



Sounds like the game or launcher was the issue then, not the OS of choice.

But what I've learned from this thread: If you want to play the newest games, you are a shallow gamer.
If a game you want to play doesn't work on Linux, you are a shallow gamer.

Thanks everyone!
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All these points have been covered or are just flat out silly, a post not even worthy of a detailed reply.
 
ChadD said:
Their programs will install just fine. If you haven't noticed MS is working double time to replace their old crap API stuff with new cross platform stuff.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/10/12/microsoft_xlang/

For really old stuff, there is nothing stopping them make a translation layer as they did for yes Windows RT. Frankly do you really think at this point MS gives a shit about developers not using their approved windows store friendly APIs ?

MS wants a walled garden as much as Apple and Google... as long as they continue to run their old micro kernel they will never really have it. I have never suggested MS would move to a FOSS version of windows, their linuxed up verison of windows will be the most locked down version of windows they have made yet. All current software will run just fine MS snapped up Kenny Kerr and his WinRT... and they have him working on completely cross platform compilers for their libraries right now.
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LOL is the only response to this worth giving. Yeah, Win RT sure worked well for them, eh? :rolleyes:
 
ManofGod said:
Average users will immediately notice the difference when their programs will not install. It does not take a genius to understand that it did not work with Windows RT and it would not work today, either.
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And yet MS still cannot stick with the ageing NT kernel and NTFS file system forever. Like Apple dropping 32 bit support like a stone, eventually MS are going to have to remove the backwards compatibility Band Aid, and when they do life will go on, like it always does.
 
ManofGod said:
LOL is the only response to this worth giving. Yeah, Win RT sure worked well for them, eh? :rolleyes:
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Considering all userland software communicates via a layer comprising mostly of DLL's under Windows, it's really not that big a deal. Hence the reason the Wine works so well with little to no input from Microsoft whatsoever (for obvious reasons).
 
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SmokeRngs said:
Who said Microsoft was going to give up licensing money? MS doesn't make the real money on OS but licensing software, often per core. That's not going to change with a swap to Linux with a Windows-like DE. The OS will be dropped but the parts they always charge for will still be sold/licensed just like now. However, the overhead will be considerably reduced by getting rid of almost all teams working on the OS side.

No, MS can't charge for the OS but it can charge for any other software as well as support contracts so I have no idea where you came up with your statement. What is your reasoning for saying MS would be giving up money? I'd like to know how you have come to that conclusion since it doesn't follow any logical path.
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If you replace the kernel, you kill Microsoft Windows, straight up. Without the NT kernel, it is not Windows and the software for Windows will not work. No, a DE is not enough, you need the whole kit and caboodle. The thing is, folks now this and still refuse to admit it. Oh well, things are as they are and that cannot change just because someone wishes it were so.
 
Mazzspeed said:
Considering all software communicates via a layer comprising mostly of DLL's under Windows, it's really not that big a deal. Hence the reason the Wine works so well with little to no input from Microsoft whatsoever (for obvious reasons).
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It is actually quite a huge deal but then again, you are trying to simplify things to fit your own wishes and that is just not the way reality works. If MS replaces the kernel with a Linux kernel, their OS is dead, simple as that.
 
ManofGod said:
If you replace the kernel, you kill Microsoft Windows, straight up. Without the NT kernel, it is not Windows and the software for Windows will not work. No, a DE is not enough, you need the whole kit and caboodle. The thing is, folks now this and still refuse to admit it. Oh well, things are as they are and that cannot change just because someone wishes it were so.
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It's got nothing with someone wishing it were so! It's called progress, the NT kernel is showing signs of obvious limitations - Eventually it's going to be replaced no matter how many times you post on a public forum it won't happen.
 
Mazzspeed said:
It's got nothing with someone wishing it were so! It's called progress, the NT kernel is showing signs of obvious limitations - Eventually it's going to be replaced no matter how many times you post on a public forum it won't happen.
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Replacing it with an updated NT kernel from Microsoft is NOT the same as replacing it with a completely incompatible kernel, simple as that.
 
ManofGod said:
LOL is the only response to this worth giving. Yeah, Win RT sure worked well for them, eh? :rolleyes:
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It didn't because they continued to allow the non RT version live.

Their mistake was not killing off any current version of win32 running windows. Which they will do at some point. Thinking they won't is silly. Once the handful of big customers they have that still use Windows server can be covered completely without win32. Expect it to die a quick death.

People will be pissed for exactly one min. lol
 
ManofGod said:
It is actually quite a huge deal but then again, you are trying to simplify things to fit your own wishes and that is just not the way reality works. If MS replaces the kernel with a Linux kernel, their OS is dead, simple as that.
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Why would anything be fitting my own wishes? I have no intention of using Windows as my primary OS. You're the one simplifying things to suit your own wishes as far as I can tell.
 
ManofGod said:
Replacing it with an updated NT kernel from Microsoft is NOT the same as replacing it with a completely incompatible kernel, simple as that.
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The NT kernel gets updated all the time, and yet it's main issues, limitations that are becoming more and more obvious as time goes on, are still present. MS are going to have to rip that Band Aid off eventually.
 
ManofGod said:
Replacing it with an updated NT kernel from Microsoft is NOT the same as replacing it with a completely incompatible kernel, simple as that.
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How is it completely incompatible ? The kernel talks to hardware... that is it. Software that your at talking about like win32 apps talk to libraries which talk to the HAL. MS is in the process right now of converting everything required to kill win32. lol

You watch I said on these forums 3 years back that MS would embrace open source and start preparing for the death of win32 and the windows kernel. Since then they have bought Git hub... they have open sourced one tool after another. I mean you tell me why did they open source the windows file explorer again ?

Yes at some point MS is going to kill win32 software. MS has already semi tried with windows s. Once win 32 is dead... they can roll out a 100% locked down OS with zero issue. At that point why keep the NT kernel around... might as well use the industry developed kernel that they can employee 1/10 as many people to support. That MS has entwined themselves into Linux development the last year should be the give away. I haven't even mentioned that the Edge browser will be running on Linux shortly.
 
Edge is just Chrome now so I don't see how that's a big deal or anything special. I doubt they would have ported it if they were sticking with their original implementation.
 
ChadD said:
How is it completely incompatible ?.
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Because the Linux Kernel is completely incompatible with the WIndows Infrastructure and always will be. Windows is entirely built upon the Windows NT kernel and all the software and hardware is built for it is built entirely around the NT kernel. The fact that you desire Linux to be the most used OS does not mean that what you desire will come to pass.

Most specifically, it is basic common sense. Basically, back in the 1990's, when Windows NT 4.0 supported different instruction sets, it was still the NT kernel from the ground up. What you are suggesting instead, is that Microsoft 100% remove all the Windows foundation and compatibility with existing software and just concede to Linux. First, that will never happen and second, the Securities and Exchange commission will never allow that to happen. The entire Enterprise industry would collapse if that were to happen.

Edit: They are not going to 100% lock down the OS and they will probably never get rid of Win32, at least for a very long time. The fact is: Wishful thinking is not the same thing as factual reality.
 
Mazzspeed said:
The NT kernel gets updated all the time, and yet it's main issues, limitations that are becoming more and more obvious as time goes on, are still present. MS are going to have to rip that Band Aid off eventually.
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The absolute only issue they have had is the issue where 32 core / 64 threads were not properly supported on the desktop version. However, they will fix that and in the meantime, the server OS has no such issues and it uses the NT kernel as well, or an highly improved version of it, anyways.
 
Mazzspeed said:
Why would anything be fitting my own wishes? I have no intention of using Windows as my primary OS. You're the one simplifying things to suit your own wishes as far as I can tell.
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No, your wishes is that Windows would die in a fire but that is not going to happen. Therefore, Microsoft is not going to use the Linux kernel is the operating system, not now, not ever.
 
ChadD said:
It didn't because they continued to allow the non RT version live.
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It did not work because it was a massive failure all on it's own. Windows software did not work with it and people wanted a computer that already used the own software. They wanted to be able to go out and buy software, install it and it just work, where it did not on Win RT. It failed, Windows did not.
 
Mazzspeed said:
It's got nothing with someone wishing it were so! It's called progress, the NT kernel is showing signs of obvious limitations - Eventually it's going to be replaced no matter how many times you post on a public forum it won't happen.
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If by progress, you mean complete and total failure then sure, I could concede that. :D The NT kernel is going nowhere and Windows is not adopting the Linux Kernel, not now, not ever. :D Next thing I know, you will claim Windows will become open source. :D
 
Mazzspeed said:
All these points have been covered or are just flat out silly, a post not even worthy of a detailed reply.
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They are not worthy of your detailed reply because they cannot be argued against. Linux has it's place but as the foundation of Windows? Nope, not now, later or ever.
 
ManofGod said:
It did not work because it was a massive failure all on it's own. Windows software did not work with it and people wanted a computer that already used the own software. They wanted to be able to go out and buy software, install it and it just work, where it did not on Win RT. It failed, Windows did not.
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Can confirm, was a sucker and bought one of the early Surface RT tablets. The Windows store was awful when I bought the thing and never got any better. Eventually Microsoft stopped supporting it. If I boot the thing today, it will fail on update search in perpetuity.
 
Technically, WINE is an implementation of the NT userspace on top of the Linux kernel interfaces, so it is possible. I don't expect Microsoft to do it, though –at least not like that.
 
Nobu said:
Technically, WINE is an implementation of the NT userspace on top of the Linux kernel interfaces, so it is possible. I don't expect Microsoft to do it, though –at least not like that.
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I don't see why they couldn't do it. Why they would is another question altogether.
 
ManofGod said:
They are not worthy of your detailed reply because they cannot be argued against. Linux has it's place but as the foundation of Windows? Nope, not now, later or ever.
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Oh they can be smashed to bits! Most points already have. But as evidenced by your own blind defense of Windows in it's current state, what's the point?

Nobu said:
Technically, WINE is an implementation of the NT userspace on top of the Linux kernel interfaces, so it is possible. I don't expect Microsoft to do it, though –at least not like that.
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It's the best method of transition, that translation layer exists for this very reason - Nothing is supposed to communicate directly with the kernel from userspace, where it does it's with very locked down permissions.
 
ManofGod said:
If by progress, you mean complete and total failure then sure, I could concede that. :D The NT kernel is going nowhere and Windows is not adopting the Linux Kernel, not now, not ever. :D Next thing I know, you will claim Windows will become open source. :D
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You keep on believing that. When it happens you can buy me a nice Steak dinner. ;)
 
Nobu said:
Technically, WINE is an implementation of the NT userspace on top of the Linux kernel interfaces, so it is possible. I don't expect Microsoft to do it, though –at least not like that.
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The userspace alone is not enough, the kernel must be the NT kernel or at least an updated NT kernel.
 
Algrim said:
I don't see why they couldn't do it. Why they would is another question altogether.
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They couldn't do it because it is not feasible to build upon an entirely different, completely incompatible foundation. They are not and never will do it.
 
Mazzspeed said:
Oh they can be smashed to bits! Most points already have. But as evidenced by your own blind defense of Windows in it's current state, what's the point?



It's the best method of transition, that translation layer exists for this very reason - Nothing is supposed to communicate directly with the kernel from userspace, where it does it's with very locked down permissions.
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They are not being smashed to bits and your insistence that they are does not make it so. Simple logic and a basic computer understanding would help you understand this.
 
Mazzspeed said:
You keep on believing that. When it happens you can buy me a nice Steak dinner. ;)
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I do not need to believe something, as you put it, that is right in front of us, in the way you put it. The Linux Kernel will never be the foundation of Windows and the industry will never allow it, anyways. Sorry but, you momma or pappa using a computer is not the industry.
 
ManofGod said:
I do not need to believe something, as you put it, that is right in front of us, in the way you put it. The Linux Kernel will never be the foundation of Windows and the industry will never allow it, anyways. Sorry but, you momma or pappa using a computer is not the industry.
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And that comment begins and ends with complete contradiction - As always. Looking forward to that steak dinner. ;)
 
ManofGod said:
They are not being smashed to bits and your insistence that they are does not make it so. Simple logic and a basic computer understanding would help you understand this.
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And repeating the same blind defense doesn't make it so either. Give it a rest, you're always turning every thread into an argument and I'm not interested in arguing over an OS - Even if you do PM individuals trying to turn them against me (yes, I know what you do).
 
ManofGod said:
If you replace the kernel, you kill Microsoft Windows, straight up. Without the NT kernel, it is not Windows and the software for Windows will not work. No, a DE is not enough, you need the whole kit and caboodle. The thing is, folks now this and still refuse to admit it. Oh well, things are as they are and that cannot change just because someone wishes it were so.
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So what if Windows the OS is killed? Microsoft isn't going to care if they can save millions if not billions in the long run no longer having to support a badly aging OS. MS doesn't even put jack into the OS anymore; MS killed the QA team for Windows and it's extremely obvious it happened.

A Windows DE will be more than enough. Just because you don't think it will be enough doesn't matter. It will only need to look like Windows all the while MS will be telling you to learn new stuff. That's by no means a new attitude for MS. Look at the massive GUI changes they've done over the past few iterations of Windows or even Office. Does the ribbon sound familiar?

No, your problem is that you want things to not change but wishing it won't change won't change what is likely to happen. Microsoft doesn't want the headache that is Windows anymore. All the signs have been there for quite a while but you're the one intentionally ignoring those signs.

ManofGod said:
It is actually quite a huge deal but then again, you are trying to simplify things to fit your own wishes and that is just not the way reality works. If MS replaces the kernel with a Linux kernel, their OS is dead, simple as that.
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Microsoft wants the OS dead. Windows is nothing but an aging pile of problems for Microsoft and the problems only get bigger with each update and iteration. A Windows DE on top of Linux is the best of all worlds for MS in the long run. There will be no future headaches to deal with like now and the support for the older OSes will only last for so long and MS will make out like bandits on the contracts for whatever extended support. All the while MS will be able to leech off the Linux community for all the OS and filesystem needs while contributing a bit of their own stuff just to make sure their own software works well.

ManofGod said:
Because the Linux Kernel is completely incompatible with the WIndows Infrastructure and always will be. Windows is entirely built upon the Windows NT kernel and all the software and hardware is built for it is built entirely around the NT kernel. The fact that you desire Linux to be the most used OS does not mean that what you desire will come to pass.

Most specifically, it is basic common sense. Basically, back in the 1990's, when Windows NT 4.0 supported different instruction sets, it was still the NT kernel from the ground up. What you are suggesting instead, is that Microsoft 100% remove all the Windows foundation and compatibility with existing software and just concede to Linux. First, that will never happen and second, the Securities and Exchange commission will never allow that to happen. The entire Enterprise industry would collapse if that were to happen.

Edit: They are not going to 100% lock down the OS and they will probably never get rid of Win32, at least for a very long time. The fact is: Wishful thinking is not the same thing as factual reality.
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Linux is anything but completely incompatible with Windows software. Hello!?! Have you ever heard of Wine or Lutris or Proton? How else do you think people are using Windows based software on Linux? All of this has been done without any help at all from Microsoft. What do you think would happen if MS put even the smallest amount of effort into helping evolve Wine? Practically overnight most of the problems and issues would go away. More than half the work to make a stopgap solution for Windows software on Linux has already been done.

You're the one doing the wishful thinking. You're the one ignoring the obvious direction MS has been taking regarding its own OS for years now. Windows is the red headed stepchild of Microsoft. Resources for the OS has been continually reduced and put towards projects which are worth more. Quite a few tools and MS programs are being ported to Linux. At what point are you going to understand that the very backwards compatibility you're bringing up is the very reason MS wants to get out of the OS business?

You're also haven't listened one bit so far. The enterprise industry isn't going to collapse. What you don't realize is that the Windows OS doesn't matter. All the components of the OS that are used in servers and such aren't actually components of the core OS. Every single one of those components can and will be ported to run on Linux and MS can continue to make tons of money off of that and without the huge headaches of an ancient OS.

We know you have a love affair for Windows. However, that love affair is blinding you to the path Microsoft started taking years ago and where that path leads.
 
Mazzspeed said:
And repeating the same blind defense doesn't make it so either. Give it a rest, you're always turning every thread into an argument and I'm not interested in arguing over an OS - Even if you do PM individuals trying to turn them against me (yes, I know what you do).
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You see, there is no blind defense no any defense at all, it is a basic and simple understanding of how computers work that allows the statement that is made: Windows will never use the Linux Kernel. If the interest is not there to speak about an opposing point of view, then simply let it go. Now, Linux has its place but never as the foundation of the Windows Operating System, never has been, never will be.
 
SmokeRngs said:
So what if Windows the OS is killed?
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Really? This needs to be explained that the most used Desktop OS in existence is Microsoft Windows, all versions. Most major industries run on Windows as well as most government institutions and medical fields. Not only does Microsoft have complete skin in the game but so does the industry at large. Pretty straight forward, if you think about it.
 
ManofGod said:
You see, there is no blind defense no any defense at all, it is a basic and simple understanding of how computers work that allows the statement that is made: Windows will never use the Linux Kernel. If the interest is not there to speak about an opposing point of view, then simply let it go. Now, Linux has its place but never as the foundation of the Windows Operating System, never has been, never will be.
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And once again the introduction of this comment contradicts the ending. C'mon man, the NT kernel is old as shit, Microsoft are showing all the signs regarding a distinct lack of interest, and the NTFS file system is one of the main reasons the Windows update process is so intrusive.

I guess I just have a greater awareness of the world around me, I accept reality.
 
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