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Prototype 1 looks nice, but I wish it was smaller. At this size of about 10L, the node 202 will be much cheaper. Targeting about 7L seems to make more sense for a new custom case.
I assume you're talking about the LRPC prototype in the first post, which was canned partly for the reason you mentioned (cheaper alternatives existing), but moreso because I wasn't happy with the thermal performance.Prototype 1 looks nice, but I wish it was smaller. At this size of about 10L, the node 202 will be much cheaper. Targeting about 7L seems to make more sense for a new custom case.
I assume you're talking about the LRPC prototype in the first post, which was canned partly for the reason you mentioned (cheaper alternatives existing), but moreso because I wasn't happy with the thermal performance.
As far as the design I'm working on now, which I've talked about a bit in the last few posts, as I've said, I'm prioritizing other aspects over pure performance-per-liter. Things like:
- System airflow
- Dust control
- Noise reduction
- Clean looks
While these are prioritized somewhat lower:
- Performance
- Size
- Compatibility
Every small case makes some trade off in the above factors. If you want high performance in the smallest package possible, there's the DAN A4, Zaber Sentry, NFC S4 Mini, and a few others in development. However, the only way those cases are able to pack so much performance into such a small volume without overheating is to have a lot of open ventilation for free airflow. If you add dust filters, that's going to reduce airflow. The open vents also don't do anything to reduce noise. Lack of system fans increases the potential for hot pockets of air to form, where air is either stagnant or caught in vortices where it's not doing its job of carrying heat out of the case. Small size comes at a cost, and that cost isn't going to be worth it for everyone.
So my current design is actually pretty different, in terms of priorities, then what's currently available. Some people will prefer the trade offs, and some people won't. That's fine. It's good to have different products that reflect different preferences. At the end of the day, you'll vote with your wallet, and I can only hope that there's enough people that consider these particular trade offs to be worthwhile and compelling.
As it currently stands, it's about 11L. Not the smallest, but again, that's not the top priority with this design.Speaking of your current design, Necere, are you shooting for 10L or smaller?? Just curious to know.
As it currently stands, it's about 11L. Not the smallest, but again, that's not the top priority with this design.
As it currently stands, it's about 11L. Not the smallest, but again, that's not the top priority with this design.
I know it. I just don't want to show anything when it's likely still a ways out, and the feasibility of some aspects aren't fully fleshed out yet.TTIWWP
I know it. I just don't want to show anything when it's likely still a ways out, and the feasibility of some aspects aren't fully fleshed out yet.
I've been doing a little work on a new concept that is very much in the vein of a Steam Machine/console style case, so I figured I'd post it here and see what people think. Here's a WIP render:
So... thoughts, feelings, criticisms?
I've been doing a little work on a new concept that is very much in the vein of a Steam Machine/console style case, so I figured I'd post it here and see what people think. Here's a WIP render:
So... thoughts, feelings, criticisms?
I've been doing a little work on a new concept that is very much in the vein of a Steam Machine/console style case, so I figured I'd post it here and see what people think. This is a smaller case than the concept/prototype LRPC from the OP, intended more for smaller and lower TDP builds, but still very suitable for a small console-like gaming machine.
Preliminary specs:
- Dimensions: 75 x 340 x 280mm, 7.1L
- CPU cooler: up to 47mm
- GPU: up to 175mm
- PSU: FlexATX
- Drives: 2x 2.5"
- Fans: 2x 120x15mm (one shares CPU cooler space), dust filtered
Let me address a few things right off the bat:
- GPU size is a limitation, but the size and cooling potential of the chassis is best suited for lower power/lower TDP parts, so it would only prevent you from using parts you really shouldn't anyway.
- Yes, FlexATX PSUs have small fans which can be loud under load. Limiting the case to short GPUs is a way of enforcing an upper limit on power usage, which should help with fan noise. The system airflow is also designed to feed into the PSU, taking some of the burden off its internal fan. Nevertheless, I'll be testing a couple of different Flex units and if they turn out to be unsatisfactory, we won't proceed.
- We will probably have to offer the PSU for sale alongside the case.
- Given the stricter PSU and GPU limitations, why choose this over another ~7L case? Basically, this case trades off wider component support for dedicated case fans, directed system airflow, and dust filtering. It's also not as deep as some other cases, which might make it preferable for a system that sits on a desk.
So... thoughts, feelings, criticisms?
It's an extra 30mm, basically, to fit the ITX Zotac 1080 (210mm), so not exactly a minor increase.I think the case looks beautiful. I do think an aesthetically pleasing steam machine case is definitely missing in the market. Had a question regarding the PSU. Since we are limited in size of the GPU, most dual 8pin cards will not be useable. That leaves us with ITX based cards which usually take lower power. Why not skip the FlexAtx Psu, and use a HDplex or something similar?
Also, in regards to GPU size, it be great to add a smudge more room to fit the ITX 1080. Perhaps the extra space from swapping the FlexAtx to an HDplex can be used for this.
W360 has it, not sure if he wants to part with it. FYI it lacks front USB ports because we didn't pay for the tooling for it for the prototype, and there's no easy way to add them, either. Would have to essentially custom make your own if you wanted them.Also, that Protoype, where is it? I will buy it for mucho $$. I think you should auction it off.
Internal structure is already mostly worked out:1) Please post layout concept so we know what we're talking about. Where's the PSU, fans and hard drives?
3) I of course like the clear looks, but until you're ready with internal structure design you won't be sure you can achieve the same effect.
TFX is kind of an awkward form factor IMO. It's almost twice the volume of flex, so the gains vs. SFX aren't as apparent. Sure, the bigger fan is nice in theory, but besides that it doesn't have much going for it. If we can't make flex work because of the noise level, then it's still something I may look at, though.2) I had a similar thought about laying out a concept with different type of PSU, but I'd go with TFX rather than Flex, just like in CircleOne now.
I want to use a single TRRS jack for combined headphone/mic. The front I/O is not final, though, and will probably also include a Type C port.5) Where's the microphone jack?
With 5TB 2.5" mechanical drives available now, it's increasingly difficult to justify 3.5" HDD support in an SFF case, IMO. At best, I might include a mounting option for a drive in place of the GPU.6) When compromising on PSU type / GPU size and not really getting whole lot smaller, I would try to support single 3.5" hard driver over 2 x 2.5" for M.2 + 3.5" config.
A ~120x280mm stand is still a significant reduction compared to the M1's 160x328mm footprint.I assume it will come with a vertical stand. I'm not a big fan of the graphics card-next-to-motherboard design, because you end up with something slim, but tall, and then you need a wider base for it anyway and you gotta be careful not to knock it over, etc. Now, your design seems quite wide, but I still think it needs a stand. And putting it flat on a desk is not ideal, because the footprint will be larger than a tower-type case like the M1. Footprint is almost more important than volume. If this is meant to be a console-replacement for the living room, then it makes sense, but that's a niche.
They are facing opposite directions, but as I explained above, only the fans over the motherboard need access to outside air so the bottom of the case has no ventilation holes at all. However, I don't want to face the vents down because that would require much taller feet (20mm+) to ensure adequate airflow.From your render it seems like the motherboard and GPU are facing in opposite directions. Would it be possible to have them face the same way? Then you can have the vents face down and you can use the surface of the case as additional desk real estate.
There isn't really a standard, per se. Here's a selection of the more powerful current gen short cards available:Short GPU support + FlexATX is a good combo for keeping power consumption/noise down. However, I think the standard for ITX graphics cards is 7", and right now you only support 6.8". I think it may be worth extending it an additional 0.2". FlexATX has a lot of potential, and our faith is in iFreilicht on this one. I hope you can get a custom one made. I'd love to see some noise testing.
47mm is the total distance from the CPU socket to the fan bracket, so it's either a 120x15mm fan on the bracket plus a heatsink up to 32mm, or a cooler up to 47mm with its own fan and no fan on the bracket.If one of the fans will be dedicated to the CPU, I assume the 47 mm CPU cooler limit doesn't include a fan?
I think I'm pretty well past the point of trying to just pack everything together as closely as possible and putting it inside mesh box hoping it'll be able to keep itself cool. I'm more interested in figuring out ways to intelligently direct airflow through a case in order to optimize cooling performance, with the added benefit of keeping dust out. A mesh box works well enough if size is all you care about, but it's not a particularly great solution in other respects. No disrespect to the guys making those casesFinally, in comparison to the Hutzy XS concept, this case is over 50% larger, and the only differences are 2 additional 120x15mm fans, an extra 10mm of CPU cooler clearance, and dust filters. While those are important for keeping noise and dust down, do they really warrant another 3.1L? I'd love to see the internal structure of it.
Short flex riser + support bracket spanning the length of the case is what I had in mind.1) How are you going to grab the GPU being this close to the motherboard? Hard angled pcb riser + pcp pci-e extender will require 20.5mm of distance from the slot. Being that tight as in your layout will require an exotic riser such as the one Josh from NFC uses and grabbing the ends of pci brackets won't be easy as well.
Shouldn't be a problem with a single 2.5" drive. With two it gets a bit crowded. I could maybe switch the drives and front I/O for a bit more room for the cables, but I think that negatively impacts aesthetics.2) I think that there might not be enough space to bend the cables coming out of the PSU. You might also need more space to install either GPU or PSU after the first one is already inside.
It doesn't have to be. You can get splitters easily, and it'll still work as a regular headphone jack if you don't use a mic.3) combo audio jack is not yet that mainstream for headsets to make it default for a PC.
I did actually, though I probably made them a bit too small in this one (0.2mm). Regardless, the only panel seams you would see here are between the black and silver parts (which hardly matters), and a just barely visible gap close to the bend on the bottom panel where it meets the front. The top/front panel is one piece. Edit: updated the render with a 0.5mm panel gap. Before, after. Not much difference, but the gap at the lower left is a little more visible.4) You should render the case with small gaps so the lines where panels connect are visible.
While the chassis structure is mostly worked out, interior mounting brackets are not, so it's going to look a bit empty right now.5) The case layout looks a bit like extended NFC S4-Mini. It looks quite simple without any internal support elements. If that doesn't bring down the case price significantly, then it might be really hard to sell such thing as properly designed high-end product. M1 and previous LRPC designs are far better in terms of this appearance metric. This layout lack that wow-effect of M1, previous LRPC and even Sentry or A4-SFX where everything comes together perfectly with the internal body parts - this is just a simple box so far, unless of course you're in the process of laying out the design for more support elements.
You know, I had one in an earlier iteration of the design. Unfortunately, including support for it complicated things, and I wasn't completely happy with it aesthetically, so I decided to drop it. I'll tell you though, every time someone comes out of the woodwork and asks for ODD support. If you're just using it for watching Blu-rays, isn't a dedicated BD player all around better for that?This is something that I would buy as a HTPC potentially, but it needs to have some kind of disc drive. Would a slot drive fit somewhere in this current design?
Technically I could extend the I/O cutout to the edge, but I'm sure it's a great idea because the front panel is removable and it loses some strength by doing that.I'm not sure how I feel about how the front I/O looks. It is possible to put it flush with the corner of the chassis to have it kind of fall off into the edge rather than just kind of look like it was stuck on the middle? I think that would look more elegant. Also can we get a USB-C port on there maybe?
I'm a bit reluctant to try to add in too many different features - partly because it creates complexity, which drives cost, but also because it can end up confusing people, and makes compatibility unclear. Hell, the M1 still isn't listed on PCPartPicker because it has so many quirks that make it not work with their part compatibility engine. I kind of want to avoid doing that again.1) Now that the HDPlex DC-ATX 300W exists and an internal HDPlex AC-DC 300W brick is coming out in a couple of months, I think it would be awesome if you included an option to mount them side-by-side in the space where there's currently the PSU and the 2.5" drives (perhaps the drives can then go under the DC-ATX component or you can mount the latter on the side). 300W should be enough for almost any system you can assemble in this case, and then you'd have a totally passive internal PSU solution, which will also get airflow from the dual fans. That would reduce noise further.
2) Also, I probably have my measurements wrong, but based on a rough estimate -- couldn't you move the PSU over to the right, put one 2.5" on top of it, rework the front I/O to fit in the space between the end of the GPU and the end of the PSU, and then support longer cards? I'm not particularly fond of that config, because it would hurt temperatures and airflow, and essentially create a slightly wider Sentry with Flex ATX instead of SFX. But if it's feasible for those who wanna do it, it would be in keeping with the NCase theme of high flexibility.
The top panel is toolless, just using a different method than the bottom panel. Because the top panel wraps around the front of the case, the whole thing needs to slide forward, rather than being pull-off using the stud+clips. You might notice the keyhole cutouts in each corner - those are used in conjunction with rubber grommets in the same way the drive mounting works in the M1, allowing for the panel to slide forward.From the renders it seems like there is only one toolless panel and it's the one at the back side of the motherboard. That will hardly ever need to be opened. Shouldn't the top panel be toolless, so you can remove it to clean your filters, access the motherboard, etc? Or both? May impair looks some, but I think it's more than worth it. I open my M1 side panel to clean the filters once every 2 weeks or so, if I had to unscrew it and then then screw it back in, it would be a major hassle.
I'm a bit reluctant to try to add in too many different features - partly because it creates complexity, which drives cost, but also because it can end up confusing people, and makes compatibility unclear. Hell, the M1 still isn't listed on PCPartPicker because it has so many quirks that make it not work with their part compatibility engine. I kind of want to avoid doing that again.
But yeah, that arrangement with the PSU would technically fit. But it would block one of the two fans and doesn't work well with the overall airflow scheme, so I'm not particularly keen to take that direction.
The top panel is toolless, just using a different method than the bottom panel. Because the top panel wraps around the front of the case, the whole thing needs to slide forward, rather than being pull-off using the stud+clips. You might notice the keyhole cutouts in each corner - those are used in conjunction with rubber grommets in the same way the drive mounting works in the M1, allowing for the panel to slide forward.
I did actually, though I probably made them a bit too small in this one (0.2mm). Regardless, the only panel seams you would see here are between the black and silver parts (which hardly matters), and a just barely visible gap close to the bend on the bottom panel where it meets the front. The top/front panel is one piece. Edit: updated the render with a 0.5mm panel gap. Before, after. Not much difference, but the gap at the lower left is a little more visible.
While the chassis structure is mostly worked out, interior mounting brackets are not, so it's going to look a bit empty right now.
I honestly hadn't considered that people might consider the apparent complexity of the internals of those cases as an indicator of "premium" design. That's an interesting perspective. I tend to think the exterior design is more of an influence than the interior in that regard, though I can see how both can play a role. Still, it's not as though I'm going to add complexity for its own sake; every choice should be meaningful and necessary. I think what's more important is how well it accomplishes its goals, and how good it looks doing it. That said, we also want to try to hit a lower price point for this case.
I've been doing a little work on a new concept that is very much in the vein of a Steam Machine/console style case, so I figured I'd post it here and see what people think. Here's a WIP render:
Necere, ah so this is the case you referenced in the Sidearm thread. It looks great.
My initial thoughts (in random order):
I assume it will come with a vertical stand. I'm not a big fan of the graphics card-next-to-motherboard design, because you end up with something slim, but tall, and then you need a wider base for it anyway and you gotta be careful not to knock it over, etc. Now, your design seems quite wide, but I still think it needs a stand. And putting it flat on a desk is not ideal, because the footprint will be larger than a tower-type case like the M1. Footprint is almost more important than volume. If this is meant to be a console-replacement for the living room, then it makes sense, but that's a niche.
.
Thanks for the view of internals. Few more notes from me then:
1) How are you going to grab the GPU being this close to the motherboard? Hard angled pcb riser + pcp pci-e extender will require 20.5mm of distance from the slot. Being that tight as in your layout will require an exotic riser such as the one Josh from NFC uses and grabbing the ends of pci brackets won't be easy as well.
2) I think that there might not be enough space to bend the cables coming out of the PSU. You might also need more space to install either GPU or PSU after the first one is already inside.
3) combo audio jack is not yet that mainstream for headsets to make it default for a PC.
4) You should render the case with small gaps so the lines where panels connect are visible.
5) The case layout looks a bit like extended NFC S4-Mini. It looks quite simple without any internal support elements. If that doesn't bring down the case price significantly, then it might be really hard to sell such thing as properly designed high-end product. M1 and previous LRPC designs are far better in terms of this appearance metric. This layout lack that wow-effect of M1, previous LRPC and even Sentry or A4-SFX where everything comes together perfectly with the internal body parts - this is just a simple box so far, unless of course you're in the process of laying out the design for more support elements.
My point here is, this is that thin line between being a simple box with components attached to the sides that "anybody could do" versus good engineering where components just fit perfectly into their spots like pieces of the puzzle. I believe that's part of the reason people pay premium for well made cases, regardless if SFF or standard cases.
Well, except for the fact that the IO should be on the same colour as the rest of the case. No complaints on the rest, but I'm also very partial to vertical slim designs. So...
I couldn't agree less with this statement.
Complexity does never mean quality. I expect this case to be sandblasted aluminum. So yes, it will be a "box", but a high-end at that. Why would you add stuff that it doesn't need? What makes the M1 premium isn't its internal structure (that is there because the case needs it to function), just as what makes your design premium isn't that. Do you honestly think that people care for the innards of the case, so long as they are functionally useful?
Do you honestly think that this is a main selling point in your design?
Actually I believe the point here is that the IO being black and contrasting with silver panel is what Necere wanted to achieve and I like it works pretty well with side panels also being black and contrasting to the rest of silver panels. Awesome job on this concept.
Seriously prava, once again you drop a wall of text without understanding the core of someone's sentence.
I have never said that complexity is the main selling point of our design, not I said it is the main reason for quality/craftsmanship/high-end. What I meant is that a simple box with components attached to the sides and no internal structure is lacking something and might be received as a "simple box that anybody could do" and therefore will make it harder to sell for a premium price.
In general I was addressing the fact that previous design of LRPC (and also RVZ02) is awesome in terms of this metric and current design lacks something, but this might be just that we don't see the internal structure yet.
And while I agree that S4-Mini has high-quality, stylish externals, it doesn't change the fact that the simplistic internal design might not explain the high price point (that doesn't include essential accessories). With S4-Mini the fact that the case is small makes it less noticeable, but when you want to expand into bigger format, it's going to be more visible.
People are buying with their eyes and they won't focus on the fact that you have optimised the layout in a way that you don't need all the unnecessary supports. They won't really notice until they start using the case themselves, but that will be AFTER you have sold them the case by appealing with other features. This is one of MANY aspects of the product and perfectly optimal design doesn't mean it'll sell.
Stop extrapolating other people statements to the extremes without understanding them or taking them out of context. Just stop. Necere understood what I meant and you obviously didn't.
Lol just ignore him...argument will go no where. You're wasting your time to even bother with him.Still extrapolating things to the extreme... with a yacht now? Yacht isn't something you buy through an online store to be delivered at your home solely based on the photos/reviews unless you're a millionaire who doesn't care. This comparison have no application for a consumer grade product.
And no, once again, I'm not talking about complicating things for complication sake, you're again and again taking my statement out of context without understanding what I wrote. I'm simply noting the fact that without the internal structure this case feels bare and I'm not sure whether it'll appear as premium or just overpriced to the potential customer because of that.
And question about making things hard to use is completely different matter - for example we can have this middle wall in our case because we have the case open from both other sides so you can install the components from the sides easily. And this has nothing to do with my argument and is put in another context which I wasn't arguing. It is obvious that if you make a case that is unusable and simply not well thought out, then it's not going to be well received. But once again you're extrapolating and even going out of the context of my argument to prove me wrong with your wacky logic.
Still extrapolating things to the extreme... with a yacht now? Yacht isn't something you buy through an online store to be delivered at your home solely based on the photos/reviews unless you're a millionaire who doesn't care. This comparison have no application for a consumer grade product.
And no, once again, I'm not talking about complicating things for complication sake, you're again and again taking my statement out of context without understanding what I wrote. I'm simply noting the fact that without the internal structure this case feels bare and I'm not sure whether it'll appear as premium or just overpriced to the potential customer because of that.
And question about making things hard to use is completely different matter - for example we can have this middle wall in our case because we have the case open from both other sides so you can install the components from the sides easily. And this has nothing to do with my argument and is put in another context which I wasn't arguing. It is obvious that if you make a case that is unusable and simply not well thought out, then it's not going to be well received. But once again you're extrapolating and even going out of the context of my argument to prove me wrong with your wacky logic.
You know, I had one in an earlier iteration of the design. Unfortunately, including support for it complicated things, and I wasn't completely happy with it aesthetically, so I decided to drop it. I'll tell you though, every time someone comes out of the woodwork and asks for ODD support. If you're just using it for watching Blu-rays, isn't a dedicated BD player all around better for that?
I'm not extrapolating anything. But yes, you are complicating things for complication sake. You are. You just admitted it. You plainly stated that a case without the internal structure won't appear as premium. You just did.
Sure, and an earlier iteration of this concept actually had ODD support. It just feels a little frustrating when you think, you know, aren't we past spinning discs by now? So you're trying to forge ahead into the the Future™ with a design, but inevitably some holdout chimes in with "hey, what about optical drive support?" On the flipside, I also understand there's still plenty of legitimate need for it, and especially in this form factor. Plus "the customer is always right" and so on, and it would frankly be a bit foolish if I could include ODD support without any real sacrifice and not do so.In all respect, don't forget the audience here. This is the same group of people that probably only needs 1 PC, yet has 2 or 3 and the spare parts to build 2 more. Why would the folks that peruse Hardforum want a dedicated blu-ray player when they can make their own PC that does everything a blu-ray player can and more?
Anyone feeling/not feeling this more than the previous version?
Anyone feeling/not feeling this more than the previous version?
Anyone feeling/not feeling this more than the previous version?