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The next NCASE project: a Steam Machine-style case (indeterminate)
- Thread starter Necere
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Ca11idus
Limp Gawd
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Well, it all depends on the performance. I agree that the more commercially available node 202 looks like the better option but I can't wait to see what this case is going to look like. Granted, the only thing that will make me give up my new Dan A4 SFX is going to be the new Gigabyte Brix UHD with at least a gtx 1070...that thing is so tiny.
I assume you're talking about the LRPC prototype in the first post, which was canned partly for the reason you mentioned (cheaper alternatives existing), but moreso because I wasn't happy with the thermal performance.
As far as the design I'm working on now, which I've talked about a bit in the last few posts, as I've said, I'm prioritizing other aspects over pure performance-per-liter. Things like:
- System airflow
- Dust control
- Noise reduction
- Clean looks
While these are prioritized somewhat lower:
- Performance
- Size
- Compatibility
Every small case makes some trade off in the above factors. If you want high performance in the smallest package possible, there's the DAN A4, Zaber Sentry, NFC S4 Mini, and a few others in development. However, the only way those cases are able to pack so much performance into such a small volume without overheating is to have a lot of open ventilation for free airflow. If you add dust filters, that's going to reduce airflow. The open vents also don't do anything to reduce noise. Lack of system fans increases the potential for hot pockets of air to form, where air is either stagnant or caught in vortices where it's not doing its job of carrying heat out of the case. Small size comes at a cost, and that cost isn't going to be worth it for everyone.
So my current design is actually pretty different, in terms of priorities, then what's currently available. Some people will prefer the trade offs, and some people won't. That's fine. It's good to have different products that reflect different preferences. At the end of the day, you'll vote with your wallet, and I can only hope that there's enough people that consider these particular trade offs to be worthwhile and compelling.
I must say I actually like the LRPC prototype in the first post, whether in vertical or horizontal - it's an excellent Steam-machine/console type case - but I suspected, like you said, the main concern is the thermal performance. Speaking of your current design, Necere, are you shooting for 10L or smaller?? Just curious to know.
As it currently stands, it's about 11L. Not the smallest, but again, that's not the top priority with this design.
Cool, cool
Consider the new design is not that big. I can't wait to see what you are working on. I can smell what you are cooking
D
Deleted member 222586
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I know it. I just don't want to show anything when it's likely still a ways out, and the feasibility of some aspects aren't fully fleshed out yet.
D
Deleted member 222586
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C'mon...!! Just a little experimental teaser....!! My Evolv ATX that I love to bits is simply too big and I'm looking for alternatives in the mITX segment after selling my NCASE M1 V1. Seeing something that I'd like will mean automatically (for me and many others, I'm certain) to stop looking and become patient
I've been doing a little work on a new concept that is very much in the vein of a Steam Machine/console style case, so I figured I'd post it here and see what people think. Here's a WIP render:
This is a smaller case than the concept/prototype LRPC from the OP, intended more for smaller and lower TDP builds, but still very suitable for a small console-like gaming machine.
Preliminary specs:
Let me address a few things right off the bat:
So... thoughts, feelings, criticisms?
This is a smaller case than the concept/prototype LRPC from the OP, intended more for smaller and lower TDP builds, but still very suitable for a small console-like gaming machine.
Preliminary specs:
- Dimensions: 75 x 340 x 280mm, 7.1L
- CPU cooler: up to 47mm
- GPU: up to 175mm
- PSU: FlexATX
- Drives: 2x 2.5"
- Fans: 2x 120x15mm (one shares CPU cooler space), dust filtered
Let me address a few things right off the bat:
- GPU size is a limitation, but the size and cooling potential of the chassis is best suited for lower power/lower TDP parts, so it would only prevent you from using parts you really shouldn't anyway.
- Yes, FlexATX PSUs have small fans which can be loud under load. Limiting the case to short GPUs is a way of enforcing an upper limit on power usage, which should help with fan noise. The system airflow is also designed to feed into the PSU, taking some of the burden off its internal fan. Nevertheless, I'll be testing a couple of different Flex units and if they turn out to be unsatisfactory, we won't proceed.
- We will probably have to offer the PSU for sale alongside the case.
- Given the stricter PSU and GPU limitations, why choose this over another ~7L case? Basically, this case trades off wider component support for dedicated case fans, directed system airflow, and dust filtering. It's also not as deep as some other cases, which might make it preferable for a system that sits on a desk.
So... thoughts, feelings, criticisms?
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I think the case looks beautiful. I do think an aesthetically pleasing steam machine case is definitely missing in the market. Had a question regarding the PSU. Since we are limited in size of the GPU, most dual 8pin cards will not be useable. That leaves us with ITX based cards which usually take lower power. Why not skip the FlexAtx Psu, and use a HDplex or something similar?
Also, in regards to GPU size, it be great to add a smudge more room to fit the ITX 1080. Perhaps the extra space from swapping the FlexAtx to an HDplex can be used for this.
Also, that Protoype, where is it? I will buy it for mucho $$. I think you should auction it off.
1) Please post layout concept so we know what we're talking about. Where's the PSU, fans and hard drives?
2) I had a similar thought about laying out a concept with different type of PSU, but I'd go with TFX rather than Flex, just like in CircleOne now.
3) I of course like the clear looks, but until you're ready with internal structure design you won't be sure you can achieve the same effect.
4) Awesome work on the front panel - the black rectangular accent works really well with silver body.
5) Where's the microphone jack?
6) When compromising on PSU type / GPU size and not really getting whole lot smaller, I would try to support single 3.5" hard driver over 2 x 2.5" for M.2 + 3.5" config.
QuantumBraced
Gawd
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Necere, ah so this is the case you referenced in the Sidearm thread. It looks great.
My initial thoughts (in random order):
I assume it will come with a vertical stand. I'm not a big fan of the graphics card-next-to-motherboard design, because you end up with something slim, but tall, and then you need a wider base for it anyway and you gotta be careful not to knock it over, etc. Now, your design seems quite wide, but I still think it needs a stand. And putting it flat on a desk is not ideal, because the footprint will be larger than a tower-type case like the M1. Footprint is almost more important than volume. If this is meant to be a console-replacement for the living room, then it makes sense, but that's a niche.
From your render it seems like the motherboard and GPU are facing in opposite directions. Would it be possible to have them face the same way? Then you can have the vents face down and you can use the surface of the case as additional desk real estate.
Short GPU support + FlexATX is a good combo for keeping power consumption/noise down. However, I think the standard for ITX graphics cards is 7", and right now you only support 6.8". I think it may be worth extending it an additional 0.2". FlexATX has a lot of potential, and our faith is in iFreilicht on this one. I hope you can get a custom one made. I'd love to see some noise testing.
If one of the fans will be dedicated to the CPU, I assume the 47 mm CPU cooler limit doesn't include a fan?
Finally, in comparison to the Hutzy XS concept, this case is over 50% larger, and the only differences are 2 additional 120x15mm fans, an extra 10mm of CPU cooler clearance, and dust filters. While those are important for keeping noise and dust down, do they really warrant another 3.1L? I'd love to see the internal structure of it.
That's just my playing devil's advocate. I love the case. Should we start another thread specifically for it, or is it too early for that? Perhaps you should not have succumbed to peer pressure.
My initial thoughts (in random order):
I assume it will come with a vertical stand. I'm not a big fan of the graphics card-next-to-motherboard design, because you end up with something slim, but tall, and then you need a wider base for it anyway and you gotta be careful not to knock it over, etc. Now, your design seems quite wide, but I still think it needs a stand. And putting it flat on a desk is not ideal, because the footprint will be larger than a tower-type case like the M1. Footprint is almost more important than volume. If this is meant to be a console-replacement for the living room, then it makes sense, but that's a niche.
From your render it seems like the motherboard and GPU are facing in opposite directions. Would it be possible to have them face the same way? Then you can have the vents face down and you can use the surface of the case as additional desk real estate.
Short GPU support + FlexATX is a good combo for keeping power consumption/noise down. However, I think the standard for ITX graphics cards is 7", and right now you only support 6.8". I think it may be worth extending it an additional 0.2". FlexATX has a lot of potential, and our faith is in iFreilicht on this one. I hope you can get a custom one made. I'd love to see some noise testing.
If one of the fans will be dedicated to the CPU, I assume the 47 mm CPU cooler limit doesn't include a fan?
Finally, in comparison to the Hutzy XS concept, this case is over 50% larger, and the only differences are 2 additional 120x15mm fans, an extra 10mm of CPU cooler clearance, and dust filters. While those are important for keeping noise and dust down, do they really warrant another 3.1L? I'd love to see the internal structure of it.
That's just my playing devil's advocate. I love the case. Should we start another thread specifically for it, or is it too early for that? Perhaps you should not have succumbed to peer pressure.
It's an extra 30mm, basically, to fit the ITX Zotac 1080 (210mm), so not exactly a minor increase.
Personally I prefer keeping the power supply inside the case, but I can look into adding optional HDPlex support if that's something you want to do.
W360 has it, not sure if he wants to part with it. FYI it lacks front USB ports because we didn't pay for the tooling for it for the prototype, and there's no easy way to add them, either. Would have to essentially custom make your own if you wanted them.
Internal structure is already mostly worked out:
Airflow concept works like this: air enters the two slim 120mm intake fans on the top, providing cooling to the CPU/motherboard/drives, then flows to the left past and through the PSU and GPU, exhausting out the left side vents. The only ventilation holes are those on the top and left side, so the airflow path is pretty well defined. There's about a 20mm gap between the case floor and the GPU, so it's got enough room for intake inside the case without needing any ventilation on the bottom.
TFX is kind of an awkward form factor IMO. It's almost twice the volume of flex, so the gains vs. SFX aren't as apparent. Sure, the bigger fan is nice in theory, but besides that it doesn't have much going for it. If we can't make flex work because of the noise level, then it's still something I may look at, though.
I want to use a single TRRS jack for combined headphone/mic. The front I/O is not final, though, and will probably also include a Type C port.
With 5TB 2.5" mechanical drives available now, it's increasingly difficult to justify 3.5" HDD support in an SFF case, IMO. At best, I might include a mounting option for a drive in place of the GPU.
A ~120x280mm stand is still a significant reduction compared to the M1's 160x328mm footprint.
There's people that are interested in a slim console-style case, rather than a shoebox case or a mini tower like the M1. This case is basically the same size as an XBOX One, so I think it will be appealing to that crowd.
They are facing opposite directions, but as I explained above, only the fans over the motherboard need access to outside air so the bottom of the case has no ventilation holes at all. However, I don't want to face the vents down because that would require much taller feet (20mm+) to ensure adequate airflow.
There isn't really a standard, per se. Here's a selection of the more powerful current gen short cards available:
EVGA GTX 1060 Gaming: 173mm
Gigabyte GTX 1070/1060 Mini ITX: 169mm
MSI GTX 1070 Aero ITX: 175mm
MSI GTX 1060 Aero ITX: 175mm
Zotac GTX 1060 Mini: 174mm
So at least for the current crop of mini cards, 175mm seems to ensure pretty good compatibility. The next step up is probably at ~210mm, where the Zotac mini 1080 and 1070 are.
I should note, there is an additional 10mm or so of clearance between the GPU and PSU to allow for installation, so there's a bit of leeway for cards that might be slightly longer.
47mm is the total distance from the CPU socket to the fan bracket, so it's either a 120x15mm fan on the bracket plus a heatsink up to 32mm, or a cooler up to 47mm with its own fan and no fan on the bracket.
I think I'm pretty well past the point of trying to just pack everything together as closely as possible and putting it inside mesh box hoping it'll be able to keep itself cool. I'm more interested in figuring out ways to intelligently direct airflow through a case in order to optimize cooling performance, with the added benefit of keeping dust out. A mesh box works well enough if size is all you care about, but it's not a particularly great solution in other respects. No disrespect to the guys making those cases
Thanks for the view of internals. Few more notes from me then:
1) How are you going to grab the GPU being this close to the motherboard? Hard angled pcb riser + pcp pci-e extender will require 20.5mm of distance from the slot. Being that tight as in your layout will require an exotic riser such as the one Josh from NFC uses and grabbing the ends of pci brackets won't be easy as well.
2) I think that there might not be enough space to bend the cables coming out of the PSU. You might also need more space to install either GPU or PSU after the first one is already inside.
3) combo audio jack is not yet that mainstream for headsets to make it default for a PC.
4) You should render the case with small gaps so the lines where panels connect are visible.
5) The case layout looks a bit like extended NFC S4-Mini. It looks quite simple without any internal support elements. If that doesn't bring down the case price significantly, then it might be really hard to sell such thing as properly designed high-end product. M1 and previous LRPC designs are far better in terms of this appearance metric. This layout lack that wow-effect of M1, previous LRPC and even Sentry or A4-SFX where everything comes together perfectly with the internal body parts - this is just a simple box so far, unless of course you're in the process of laying out the design for more support elements.
1) How are you going to grab the GPU being this close to the motherboard? Hard angled pcb riser + pcp pci-e extender will require 20.5mm of distance from the slot. Being that tight as in your layout will require an exotic riser such as the one Josh from NFC uses and grabbing the ends of pci brackets won't be easy as well.
2) I think that there might not be enough space to bend the cables coming out of the PSU. You might also need more space to install either GPU or PSU after the first one is already inside.
3) combo audio jack is not yet that mainstream for headsets to make it default for a PC.
4) You should render the case with small gaps so the lines where panels connect are visible.
5) The case layout looks a bit like extended NFC S4-Mini. It looks quite simple without any internal support elements. If that doesn't bring down the case price significantly, then it might be really hard to sell such thing as properly designed high-end product. M1 and previous LRPC designs are far better in terms of this appearance metric. This layout lack that wow-effect of M1, previous LRPC and even Sentry or A4-SFX where everything comes together perfectly with the internal body parts - this is just a simple box so far, unless of course you're in the process of laying out the design for more support elements.
Short flex riser + support bracket spanning the length of the case is what I had in mind.
Shouldn't be a problem with a single 2.5" drive. With two it gets a bit crowded. I could maybe switch the drives and front I/O for a bit more room for the cables, but I think that negatively impacts aesthetics.
It doesn't have to be. You can get splitters easily, and it'll still work as a regular headphone jack if you don't use a mic.
I did actually, though I probably made them a bit too small in this one (0.2mm). Regardless, the only panel seams you would see here are between the black and silver parts (which hardly matters), and a just barely visible gap close to the bend on the bottom panel where it meets the front. The top/front panel is one piece. Edit: updated the render with a 0.5mm panel gap. Before, after. Not much difference, but the gap at the lower left is a little more visible.
While the chassis structure is mostly worked out, interior mounting brackets are not, so it's going to look a bit empty right now.
I honestly hadn't considered that people might consider the apparent complexity of the internals of those cases as an indicator of "premium" design. That's an interesting perspective. I tend to think the exterior design is more of an influence than the interior in that regard, though I can see how both can play a role. Still, it's not as though I'm going to add complexity for its own sake; every choice should be meaningful and necessary. I think what's more important is how well it accomplishes its goals, and how good it looks doing it. That said, we also want to try to hit a lower price point for this case.
Thanks for the feedback.
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Nathan Spears
Weaksauce
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This is something that I would buy as a HTPC potentially, but it needs to have some kind of disc drive. Would a slot drive fit somewhere in this current design?
You know, I had one in an earlier iteration of the design. Unfortunately, including support for it complicated things, and I wasn't completely happy with it aesthetically, so I decided to drop it. I'll tell you though, every time someone comes out of the woodwork and asks for ODD support. If you're just using it for watching Blu-rays, isn't a dedicated BD player all around better for that?
I'm not sure how I feel about how the front I/O looks. It is possible to put it flush with the corner of the chassis to have it kind of fall off into the edge rather than just kind of look like it was stuck on the middle? I think that would look more elegant. Also can we get a USB-C port on there maybe?
Other than that it is beautiful. I'd look at the ML05/6/9 area to see what Silverstone did and kind of see what you can do from there if anything.
Other than that it is beautiful. I'd look at the ML05/6/9 area to see what Silverstone did and kind of see what you can do from there if anything.
QuantumBraced
Gawd
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Necere, thanks for your replies. Okay, now that I've seen the internals of it, I have to say I love it. There isn't anything like it in the console-style case realm. Like the M1, it prioritizes small size, but not at the cost of utility. The dual 120mm fans + directed airflow will cool very well, keep noise down, keep internal pressure up, and allow for decent filtration as you promised, excellent concept. The dual fan bracket also clearly has M1 DNA which I dig. Let me play some more devil's advocate:
1) Now that the HDPlex DC-ATX 300W exists and an internal HDPlex AC-DC 300W brick is coming out in a couple of months, I think it would be awesome if you included an option to mount them side-by-side in the space where there's currently the PSU and the 2.5" drives (perhaps the drives can then go under the DC-ATX component or you can mount the latter on the side). 300W should be enough for almost any system you can assemble in this case, and then you'd have a totally passive internal PSU solution, which will also get airflow from the dual fans. That would reduce noise further.
2) Also, I probably have my measurements wrong, but based on a rough estimate -- couldn't you move the PSU over to the right, put one 2.5" on top of it, rework the front I/O to fit in the space between the end of the GPU and the end of the PSU, and then support longer cards? I'm not particularly fond of that config, because it would hurt temperatures and airflow, and essentially create a slightly wider Sentry with Flex ATX instead of SFX. But if it's feasible for those who wanna do it, it would be in keeping with the NCase theme of high flexibility.
3) From the renders it seems like there is only one toolless panel and it's the one at the back side of the motherboard. That will hardly ever need to be opened. Shouldn't the top panel be toolless, so you can remove it to clean your filters, access the motherboard, etc? Or both? May impair looks some, but I think it's more than worth it. I open my M1 side panel to clean the filters once every 2 weeks or so, if I had to unscrew it and then then screw it back in, it would be a major hassle.
1) Now that the HDPlex DC-ATX 300W exists and an internal HDPlex AC-DC 300W brick is coming out in a couple of months, I think it would be awesome if you included an option to mount them side-by-side in the space where there's currently the PSU and the 2.5" drives (perhaps the drives can then go under the DC-ATX component or you can mount the latter on the side). 300W should be enough for almost any system you can assemble in this case, and then you'd have a totally passive internal PSU solution, which will also get airflow from the dual fans. That would reduce noise further.
2) Also, I probably have my measurements wrong, but based on a rough estimate -- couldn't you move the PSU over to the right, put one 2.5" on top of it, rework the front I/O to fit in the space between the end of the GPU and the end of the PSU, and then support longer cards? I'm not particularly fond of that config, because it would hurt temperatures and airflow, and essentially create a slightly wider Sentry with Flex ATX instead of SFX. But if it's feasible for those who wanna do it, it would be in keeping with the NCase theme of high flexibility.
3) From the renders it seems like there is only one toolless panel and it's the one at the back side of the motherboard. That will hardly ever need to be opened. Shouldn't the top panel be toolless, so you can remove it to clean your filters, access the motherboard, etc? Or both? May impair looks some, but I think it's more than worth it. I open my M1 side panel to clean the filters once every 2 weeks or so, if I had to unscrew it and then then screw it back in, it would be a major hassle.
Technically I could extend the I/O cutout to the edge, but I'm sure it's a great idea because the front panel is removable and it loses some strength by doing that.
USB Type C is something we'll certainly try to get on this (and any other future projects).
I'm a bit reluctant to try to add in too many different features - partly because it creates complexity, which drives cost, but also because it can end up confusing people, and makes compatibility unclear. Hell, the M1 still isn't listed on PCPartPicker because it has so many quirks that make it not work with their part compatibility engine. I kind of want to avoid doing that again.
But yeah, that arrangement with the PSU would technically fit. But it would block one of the two fans and doesn't work well with the overall airflow scheme, so I'm not particularly keen to take that direction.
The top panel is toolless, just using a different method than the bottom panel. Because the top panel wraps around the front of the case, the whole thing needs to slide forward, rather than being pull-off using the stud+clips. You might notice the keyhole cutouts in each corner - those are used in conjunction with rubber grommets in the same way the drive mounting works in the M1, allowing for the panel to slide forward.
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QuantumBraced
Gawd
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I understand wanting to avoid complexity. I think shifting the PSU to accommodate a long graphics card is not worth it and defeats the point of the case on some level, but do consider the HDPlex 300W internal power brick + DC-ATX combo. That would only require an extra 6 mounting holes (or less if you reuse some of the PSU/SSD ones) and the benefit would be a totally silent internal PSU, when the biggest drawback of this case for most will be the loud Flex ATX fan. This will only be an option for people in the know. Not sure it would really mess with PCPartPicker algorithms.
To me, the best thing about the M1 is its high functionality-per-liter, i.e. that it you can configure it in many different ways to fit many different needs by having trade-offs rather than just a bigger size. That's not complexity for the sake of it, that's flexibility and the main reason the case is so popular in my opinion. Because utility is squeezed out of every inch while keeping size tiny, so you can have massive radiators and GPU air coolers meant to go into mid-towers within 12L with decent airflow and air filtration. That's good engineering. Don't completely renege on that philosophy because PCPartPicker are lazy haha, you can at least go for the low-hanging fruit. I get that this is meant as an affordable console-style product for the masses, not strictly SFF enthusiasts, that can be assembled quickly without much thought. Still, you may be able to capture both markets. My 2 cents.
I dig that top panel toolless design, even better than the push-pins in my opinion.
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Now I can see it - the front panel surface is not visible in the image showing interior of the case. So the front panel spreads across the whole front of the case and side panels come together with it from behind. Do you have enough precision with Lian Li for the internal frame to those side panels to come perfectly with the front panel? Or are you designing to accommodate the precision errors in the design?
Good to hear. I'm waiting for the internal structure when you're ready to show it off.
My point here is, this is that thin line between being a simple box with components attached to the sides that "anybody could do" versus good engineering where components just fit perfectly into their spots like pieces of the puzzle. I believe that's part of the reason people pay premium for well made cases, regardless if SFF or standard cases.
D
Deleted member 222586
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I've been doing a little work on a new concept that is very much in the vein of a Steam Machine/console style case, so I figured I'd post it here and see what people think. Here's a WIP render:
I have mixed both images as it makes it easier to talk about them.
EXTERIOR DESIGN.
I... do not have much to say. Well, except for the fact that the IO should be on the same colour as the rest of the case. No complaints on the rest, but I'm also very partial to vertical slim designs. So...
INNARDS
In my opinion this case should be the perfect hybrid for HTPC / light gaming machine. Both end goals work very well together so long as they are mutually exclusive. Simply put: you should be able to stuff 2x 3,5" HDD where the gpu is located, which should suffice for most HTPC users.
At the same time, it looks like the front IO is simply on top of the psu. Then why not make a faceplate that features space for an ODD? This way a simple faceplate change allows the case to be used in wildly different ways. Although, instead of the whole faceplate... you could simply make the overall I/O plate separate from the rest of the case, and a bit bigger so that said part would feature the ODD opening and allowing for one would be rather cheap.
I think that it is a good idea because what made the M1 so succesfull was its extreme flexibility. It would only make sense to try to do the same when said additions do not change the initial goals of the design, nor add any extreme complication or anything at all, for that matter.
Yup, a design like this (without the htpc and odd part, since I would not be using that) I would buy in a heartbeat...
Necere, ah so this is the case you referenced in the Sidearm thread. It looks great.
My initial thoughts (in random order):
I assume it will come with a vertical stand. I'm not a big fan of the graphics card-next-to-motherboard design, because you end up with something slim, but tall, and then you need a wider base for it anyway and you gotta be careful not to knock it over, etc. Now, your design seems quite wide, but I still think it needs a stand. And putting it flat on a desk is not ideal, because the footprint will be larger than a tower-type case like the M1. Footprint is almost more important than volume. If this is meant to be a console-replacement for the living room, then it makes sense, but that's a niche.
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My PS4 PRO (blasphemy!) does not agree with you
Of course, I do not have kids nor pets, so I would have to fuck up big time to knock it over.I couldn't agree less with this statement.
Complexity does never mean quality. I expect this case to be sandblasted aluminum. So yes, it will be a "box", but a high-end at that. Why would you add stuff that it doesn't need? What makes the M1 premium isn't its internal structure (that is there because the case needs it to function), just as what makes your design premium isn't that. Do you honestly think that people care for the innards of the case, so long as they are functionally useful?
Do you honestly think that this is a main selling point in your design?
I'll tell you: it is not.
This, on the other hand, is:
What makes or breaks something is how well it can be used, its design and its craftmanship. Of course, the design needs to be integrally sound so it doesn't break or wobble or anything, but if you could, you have built your product without the middle portion... and if you could but you didn't, then you did it wrong.
There is no need to add redundant stuff. Trust me, nobody that cares about adding complexity in things that do not need it.
The point is that there is nothing simple about a well designed box. Yes, the shape is simple, but the way the components use that shape in order to create a product isn't. Specially when you are using premium materials and high-end machining techniques to make the product.
Look at this case, for instance:
Tell me, why does it look cheap? Because it is cheaply made.
Poor materials? Check.
Thin materials? Check
Cheap craftmanship? Check
The innards being simple have nothing to do with anything. You could remove that middle plate (the case would probably collapse or wobble, but lets assume it could work) and the case would be as cheap as it was before.
But this? You saying this looks cheap or low quality?
I'm sorry, but no. To be honest, the S4 mini is probably the case on the market that has the highest premium feel, if you understand its design queues. It is a highly compromised design, but it doesn't try to do what it knows it can't do. And that is what makes it astonishing: the craftmanship is second to none and so it is its design. Of course it isn't for everyone (too many compromises for myself, at the moment) but it is a work of art.
Simplicity is the end goal.
Actually I believe the point here is that the IO being black and contrasting with silver panel is what Necere wanted to achieve and I like it works pretty well with side panels also being black and contrasting to the rest of silver panels. Awesome job on this concept.
Seriously prava, once again you drop a wall of text without understanding the core of someone's sentence.
I have never said that complexity is the main selling point of our design, not I said it is the main reason for quality/craftsmanship/high-end. What I meant is that a simple box with components attached to the sides and no internal structure is lacking something and might be received as a "simple box that anybody could do" and therefore will make it harder to sell for a premium price.
In general I was addressing the fact that previous design of LRPC (and also RVZ02) is awesome in terms of this metric and current design lacks something, but this might be just that we don't see the internal structure yet.
And while I agree that S4-Mini has high-quality, stylish externals, it doesn't change the fact that the simplistic internal design might not explain the high price point (that doesn't include essential accessories). With S4-Mini the fact that the case is small makes it less noticeable, but when you want to expand into bigger format, it's going to be more visible.
People are buying with their eyes and they won't focus on the fact that you have optimised the layout in a way that you don't need all the unnecessary supports. They won't really notice until they start using the case themselves, but that will be AFTER you have sold them the case by appealing with other features. This is one of MANY aspects of the product and perfectly optimal design doesn't mean it'll sell.
Stop extrapolating other people statements to the extremes without understanding them or taking them out of context. Just stop. Necere understood what I meant and you obviously didn't.
D
Deleted member 222586
Guest
I understood every word you wrote. And I feel that what you wrote makes no sense at all whatsoever, because you imply things that aren't there, things that aren't true.
If two objects have exactly the same specs but one is simpler in design, that alone makes it a better object.
And yes, people are buying with their eyes... but so what? We aren't talking about decorations or complications (like you can see on a watch, for instance), we are talking about a product that is designed to house a computer. And obviously, a computer case without anything inside is much better to work with and better for airflow which, in fact, make it the better design. And it is so because the inside of a small case can't be seen when in use. But this doesn't mean that you can put stamped thin steel sheets in there, it means that you do not need to decorate it for decoration sake.
I'm still trying to grasp where your idea of "premium" was born, because it makes no sense to me. Ever entered into a yacht? It is a good example because although they are highly high-end things they also have to be very functional. You will never see things being made complicated "so that they look more premium". No. It is in fact the opposite. This design looks cheap to you?
Against this one:
Do note that this two yachts ("A" and "Radiant") are very comparable both in terms of size and cost, but the former is much simpler in design, but that doesn't make it look cheaper or anything like that. It simply doesn't.
All in all, do you honestly think that anyone will open your case and think "how clever to add a reinforced piece in the middle"? No. They will think "fuck, how much easier it would be if this piece in the middle wasn't here". Premium feeling has absolutely nothing to do with the innards of anything, so long as the materials, build quality and finishing are there. No. You talk about complicating things for complication sake, when a computer on the inside needs to be practical because it is something that you need to tinker with, it is something driven by functionality. Specially at the sizes we are relating, where compromises need to be made.
PS: Necere is very open minded about ideas thrown at him. He gladly accepts them, then studies them. I'm simply blunt with my ideas, and say things they way I feel them. It is who I am. And I am being blunt because, for starters, your case looks premium because it is premium-y constructed. Not because there is a reinforced something inside. In fact, the design would be miles better without it, as you could do more things with your product.
Still extrapolating things to the extreme... with a yacht now? Yacht isn't something you buy through an online store to be delivered at your home solely based on the photos/reviews unless you're a millionaire who doesn't care. This comparison have no application for a consumer grade product.
And no, once again, I'm not talking about complicating things for complication sake, you're again and again taking my statement out of context without understanding what I wrote. I'm simply noting the fact that without the internal structure this case feels bare and I'm not sure whether it'll appear as premium or just overpriced to the potential customer because of that.
And question about making things hard to use is completely different matter - for example we can have this middle wall in our case because we have the case open from both other sides so you can install the components from the sides easily. And this has nothing to do with my argument and is put in another context which I wasn't arguing. It is obvious that if you make a case that is unusable and simply not well thought out, then it's not going to be well received. But once again you're extrapolating and even going out of the context of my argument to prove me wrong with your wacky logic.
And no, once again, I'm not talking about complicating things for complication sake, you're again and again taking my statement out of context without understanding what I wrote. I'm simply noting the fact that without the internal structure this case feels bare and I'm not sure whether it'll appear as premium or just overpriced to the potential customer because of that.
And question about making things hard to use is completely different matter - for example we can have this middle wall in our case because we have the case open from both other sides so you can install the components from the sides easily. And this has nothing to do with my argument and is put in another context which I wasn't arguing. It is obvious that if you make a case that is unusable and simply not well thought out, then it's not going to be well received. But once again you're extrapolating and even going out of the context of my argument to prove me wrong with your wacky logic.
Veritas187
Weaksauce
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Lol just ignore him...argument will go no where. You're wasting your time to even bother with him.
D
Deleted member 222586
Guest
I'm not extrapolating anything. But yes, you are complicating things for complication sake. You are. You just admitted it. You plainly stated that a case without the internal structure won't appear as premium. You just did. For the third time, said argument lacks logic. For you a simpler design looks less premium. The rest of the world sees it exactly the opposite: something more simple is better. Because there is nothing easy or cheap about a good, simple design. There isn't. In fact, it is much more difficult to do the same with less. Because you need to balance it out perfectly.
Also, a middle wall makes things harder. Period. There is no but, no excuses, it simply does. If you put that wall simply because the structure needs it, or because you need it to install components then it is a good design choice. No questions there. But if you put it because somehow you think it makes it look more premium then you are completely and utterly wrong.
I can see both your points. It's true that sometimes people might look at something like this and say, "it's just a simple box, how is that worth $xxx?" So being able to look inside and get a visual sense of the engineering that goes into something can help someone to justify the cost.
On the other hand, I think exterior design, quality of materials/construction, and overall functionality and features are bigger factors driving purchasing decisions. If it gets most of the those right, then what the bare chassis looks like under the hood is largely moot.
On the other hand, I think exterior design, quality of materials/construction, and overall functionality and features are bigger factors driving purchasing decisions. If it gets most of the those right, then what the bare chassis looks like under the hood is largely moot.
Nathan Spears
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In all respect, don't forget the audience here. This is the same group of people that probably only needs 1 PC, yet has 2 or 3 and the spare parts to build 2 more. Why would the folks that peruse Hardforum want a dedicated blu-ray player when they can make their own PC that does everything a blu-ray player can and more?
But point taken. It's just that an HTPC is the only thing at this point I could purchase somewhat justifiably both to my wife and myself.
What I sead meant MIGHT, not WILL - I'm giving the notes to Necere on this additional metric that he should consider. And you ARE EXTRAPOLATING IT - I never said it won't sell without a structure, I never said it has to have the structure, I just stated just what Necere explained to you: people will come and say "it's just a simple box, how is that worth $xxx?".
Once again talking with you wastes time for all of us because you are taking each small piece of the equation and extrapolating it to the extreme like it's the deciding factor of all while noone said that.
Sure, and an earlier iteration of this concept actually had ODD support. It just feels a little frustrating when you think, you know, aren't we past spinning discs by now? So you're trying to forge ahead into the the Future™ with a design, but inevitably some holdout chimes in with "hey, what about optical drive support?" On the flipside, I also understand there's still plenty of legitimate need for it, and especially in this form factor. Plus "the customer is always right" and so on, and it would frankly be a bit foolish if I could include ODD support without any real sacrifice and not do so.
So, along those lines, with a little rearranging of components I can probably get ODD support in, looking something like this:
Anyone feeling/not feeling this more than the previous version?
QuantumBraced
Gawd
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I don't feel the ODD. Just get an external one for the once a year you need to use an optical disc. And you'll be able to use it across machines, it's more practical in 2017. However, I definitely feel the repositioned USB ports, audio jack, and logo. In fact, I'd move the power button over to the other side of the USB ports, or maybe to the extreme other end and move the NCase logo a bit to the left. If that interferes with the drives, it's fine where it is.
Neapolitan6th
[H]ard|Gawd
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I am a huge lover of the optical drive. Goodness I spent 150$ just to throw a slower and noiser bluray drive into my NCASE M1. Even though I like ODDs, I would prefer you kept with the non ODD design. I really love its solid uninterupted aluminum chasis. The black section you would have to add just ruins the sleekness of your previous design for me.
Maybe if you went with the slot load design in the front cut from the aluminum, that would work (Like the M1). However, I'm not sure if slot loading ODDs work in the horizontal orientation as I know I've had some ejecting issues with that in the past.
EDIT: Just referenced the original design, and the only part I dislike is the black I/O section. Your implementation of the black I/O on the bottom, in the 2nd version is better imo.
Though I would prefer one color throughout.
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theGryphon
[H]ard|Gawd
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Necere, two ideas about incorporating an ODD without distracting the looks as much.
1) A thin separation between the silver cover and the base, doubling as access to a slot-load ODD. Caveat: The rest of that thin separation needs to be covered nicely (internally) so as to not expose the internals. Maybe a zig-zag bend on the lower part, or an internal plate?
2) A slot-load ODD on the side, which requires changing the vent pattern locally there.
1) A thin separation between the silver cover and the base, doubling as access to a slot-load ODD. Caveat: The rest of that thin separation needs to be covered nicely (internally) so as to not expose the internals. Maybe a zig-zag bend on the lower part, or an internal plate?
2) A slot-load ODD on the side, which requires changing the vent pattern locally there.