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BenQ GW2x50(HM) thread.
- Thread starter Medion
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A-MVA
Have you used it for gaming, or are you just speculating? Also, please elaborate, which monitor do you feel is better for gaming? I'm going to guess, until you correct me, that you're referring to the XL2420T, which costs about twice as much as the GW2450.
Outbreaker
Limp Gawd
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@TroyX
Some people do more than just play games on their PC, and this people want an allrounder Monitor.
Some people do more than just play games on their PC, and this people want an allrounder Monitor.
Mine looks very washed with those. Can two of the same monitors be that different so that we see different things with same setting?
Yes every panel is different.
I tried this ghosting test: http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/testsoftware/ghosting.html
and it showed quit a bit of trails from the box even on premium AMA.
and it showed quit a bit of trails from the box even on premium AMA.
Is it better on AMA High? Heard Premium overcompensates
How does it look on that test?
When the box moves very fast (left to right) in the beginning there's a little bit but when it's moving slowly (right to left), close to none. I have a samsung T240. Want something with better color but don't want to gamble on korean lcd
EDIT: did it in fullscreen, left to right is pretty horrible. right to left is acceptable but there is tiny bit of ghosting.
Mid settings tend to be good on most monitors, while the highest settings tend to overcompensate. I'll compare two types here, Samsung (TN) and BenQ (AMVA). The Samsung uses Normal, Faster, Fastest. The BenQ uses Normal, High, and Premium. I'll refer to them as low, mid, and high (respectively).
-On the low setting, the BenQ (AMVA) panel is a ghosting machine. The Samsung (TN) ghosts noticeably in gaming if you're susceptible to it, but for me, it wasn't too bad. For daily use, this is fine.
-On the mid setting, the BenQ performs better than the Samsung's low setting, but can still ghost a bit much for a hardcore FPS gamer. The Samsung's mid-setting was about perfect.
-At the high setting, both tend to overcompensate, leaving dark trails behind a standard mouse cursor. In the case of the BenQ, it's only noticeable if you look for it. On a 2ms TN, like the Samsung, it's truly horrid. Also, the BenQ here in terms of gaming performs about as well as Samsung's mid (Faster) setting. It's only with desktop use where I can sometimes see the dark trails.
So, if you're a BenQ owner, use Premium if you're primarily a gamer, use High if you're using it for basic web browsing and media consumption, or you're a gamer who isn't sensitive to ghosting, and NEVER use the normal setting. On the Samsung, use the Faster setting. The normal setting tends to ghost a little, while the Fastest setting grossly overcompensates. If I had to rate them in usability, it would be:
1. Faster (Samsung mid)
2. Premium/High (BenQ high/mid) depending on use
3. Normal (Samsung low)
4. normal (BenQ low) or Fastest (Samsung high) - avoid using for any reason
Basically, the TN panel will win in ghosting. Anyone who doesn't expect this is sadly mistaken. However, I find High (BenQ mid setting) to be on par with my wife's ACD. So, if you're considering gaming on an IPS, then this panel is worthy as alternative consideration. If you can't stand IPS response times, then you likely can't stand this. Stick with TN.
I'll have a more detailed review tomorrow, hopefully with a few pics and potentially even a video. However, for now, I would say that this AMVA panel is a worthy competitor to IPS, where each has it's strengths over the other. Get the AMVA if you care more about contrast and black levels. It's a beauty in darker games like Diablo 3. Get the IPS if any kind of color shift drives you nuts (I haven't noticed it, but then, I barely notice it in a TN), or you need a higher resolution. I've noticed that while VA panels are typically offered in 1080p, similar size IPS panels are either 1920x1200 or 2560x1440. But, if you want something better than TN and on a budget, this panel is a winner. I'd have to see the 22"/24" versions to see if there are differences, but at 27", this thing takes a steaming dump over the 2x S27B550v, S27B350H, and the Asus VK278Q that I've used over the past month.
Wow thanks Medion for your input! Greatly appreciate it. My samsung must be really old, there is no response settings.
I spend most of my time watching movies and shows, so I really like this monitor. On occasion I'd play some Battlefield 3 and other first person shooters and racing sims. I just ordered one, hopefully it'll be good. Before the samsung, I had a Viewsonic 2025wm which was also mva, I thought it was ok then. Looking to be blown away by this one.
I spend most of my time watching movies and shows, so I really like this monitor. On occasion I'd play some Battlefield 3 and other first person shooters and racing sims. I just ordered one, hopefully it'll be good. Before the samsung, I had a Viewsonic 2025wm which was also mva, I thought it was ok then. Looking to be blown away by this one.
My 2007 NEC IPS has some faint grey overshoot on the box but the NEC had not much, if any, red trails, yet the GW2450 had a bunch of red streaks on High and Premimum AMA. Also, not using my NEC for a week while using the GW2450 made me I forgot how nice it looks - I like glossy screens so much more better. Maybe Dell will make a glossy in the 23/24 inch when the glossy 27 comes out.
I am going to return the BenQ based on seeing no benefit in blacks or contrast (in fact my 2007 NEC looks better in its blacks and seems sharper or is that not contrast) and the slow response (BenQ states 4ms, yet my 5 year old IPS NEC is faster.) The Fry's saleperson, because there was no display for me to see, said I could return it with no restocking fee and the manager at the register agreed but would not put it in writing (he said a restocking fee did not apply to monitors anyway but it clearly states that on the receipt that monitors have a restocking fee.) Anyone have experience with Fry's, think I will get out of fee?
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Maybe the 27 inch is a different panel or something because Bun Bun does not seem thrilled with his 2450, and my 2450 seems lame (viewable angles seem more TN-like than IPS 180 degree comparable, slow response, worse blacks than my old NEC IPS, etc.)
Namelessme
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There are no Fry's in my area, so no idea how they handle restocking fees. But if they give you trouble, I'd ask for that same sales person and manager you spoke to the first time. Hopefully you remember their names (and they remember you). If the same manager won't waive the fee, say you will call corporate and complain, etc.
I just tried that ghosting test on my 5+ year old, NEC S-PVA. I never tested ghosting before, as I previous to this LCD, I used CRTs -- I also rarely game, so it's not a biggie -- although if Diablo 3 Starter goes free soon, I may try that.
Anyway, I saw a very faint outline next to the square, more prominent in full screen mode, but no trails, or anything really super noticeable. If I was gaming and saw that, I'd probably just ignore it, or not even notice. Is that faint outline thing what people refer to as ghosting? This panel has somewhat crummy response rates, I think 16ms black, 8ms gray to gray, so I'd think the new AMVA should do better than that. Maybe ghosting bothers more people than others? I'm just curious what people are referring to when they say they see trails/streaks, etc. on the BenQ.
I just tried that ghosting test on my 5+ year old, NEC S-PVA. I never tested ghosting before, as I previous to this LCD, I used CRTs -- I also rarely game, so it's not a biggie -- although if Diablo 3 Starter goes free soon, I may try that.
Anyway, I saw a very faint outline next to the square, more prominent in full screen mode, but no trails, or anything really super noticeable. If I was gaming and saw that, I'd probably just ignore it, or not even notice. Is that faint outline thing what people refer to as ghosting? This panel has somewhat crummy response rates, I think 16ms black, 8ms gray to gray, so I'd think the new AMVA should do better than that. Maybe ghosting bothers more people than others? I'm just curious what people are referring to when they say they see trails/streaks, etc. on the BenQ.
What you describes seems like what I see with my 2007 NEC IPS (20WMGX2.) What you describe and what I see on my NEC seems more over-shoot than ghosting. On the BenQ GW2450, it is ghosting - streaks of red following the square. I see it in all directions of the red square but when the square moves left to right, as it moves its fastest, the square looks like a comet almost with fairly long red trails behind it. I tried the test on a 2005 Viewsonic IPS VP201S and it looks about the same as the BenQ (BenQ on AMA premium.) And that monitor is over 7 years old and has a 16ms reponse rate. The BenQ claims 4ms typical with a 12ms rating, so perhaps it is around 16ms like the Viewsonic - they look about the same in that test.
Namelessme
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That is odd. Maybe there is a difference between the BenQ 24" and 27" models after all. The two people here with the 24"ers aren't exactly thrilled with them. The response rates listed can be tricky too, as some manufacturers use the actual rate, some use gray to gray, etc. But the BenQ shouldn't be causing streaking. I didn't even see streaking on my slow S-PVA.
I find it interesting that you found the blacks and contrast better on the 20WMGX2 than the BenQ. According to specs, they shouldn't even be close. Although I recall that NEC supposedly being quite good with blacks compared to other IPS panels... glossy helps too, makes blacks subjectively look better.
I had hoped the BenQ would be semi-glossy, close enough to glossy that it'd be a good alternative. It sounds like it's a standard matte, with bad response times, so-so colors... nothing really special about it. Perhaps calibrated it would look better, or again, the 27" model is much better than the 24" one.
As for angles, how is it with vertical angles? Being a VA, it should be great with vertical angles, and perhaps some color shift for horizontal (a little bit).
I find it interesting that you found the blacks and contrast better on the 20WMGX2 than the BenQ. According to specs, they shouldn't even be close. Although I recall that NEC supposedly being quite good with blacks compared to other IPS panels... glossy helps too, makes blacks subjectively look better.
I had hoped the BenQ would be semi-glossy, close enough to glossy that it'd be a good alternative. It sounds like it's a standard matte, with bad response times, so-so colors... nothing really special about it. Perhaps calibrated it would look better, or again, the 27" model is much better than the 24" one.
As for angles, how is it with vertical angles? Being a VA, it should be great with vertical angles, and perhaps some color shift for horizontal (a little bit).
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How would this monitor compare to the most recent Philips 24" MVA monitors? I believe Prad suggests that there is a little bit of overdrive overshooting with the Philips monitor but just how bad is it?
I like some VA goodness so hopefully these new MVA monitors aren't suffering from major artifacts (?), anemic response time compensation (doesn't seem to be a problem here), or huge input lag (probably not a problem).
I like some VA goodness so hopefully these new MVA monitors aren't suffering from major artifacts (?), anemic response time compensation (doesn't seem to be a problem here), or huge input lag (probably not a problem).
Vertical had shift but not as bad as horizontal. Horizontal shift was about like TN; you could just move your head 6 inches to a side and see a little shift (like a shadow shift of color.) For comparison, I can stand, walk to 180 degrees of my NEC and see no change.
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I do not know how to technically measure it but I know the NEC's dark colors, as well as all colors, look better and its blacks look deeper black to me. Maybe it is the glossy screen.
I wonder if something was wrong with my BenQ. I noticed that the smoke in the opening menu of Skyrim looked banded. And when Windows would shut down, it would have banded-like ripple from the bottom right corner, moving toward middle, of the closing screen, that I have never seen before. I also noticed this banded appearance in other things but always in those two.
I confirmed last night. It is for HDMI only and the 16/232 settings is the exact same as having DVI plugged in.
Almost seems like a voltage switch rather than dynamic range. But anyway.
After reading your response about the 27" and my and Crake8's response about the 24" I am going to conclude for now that the 24" is indeed differen't and NOT as good as the 27".
After I took those last shots with the black grey bars I can see the color shift is horrible on this monitor. It is definitely worse then my TN's at work and that is why I perceive better contrast on them. I am going to bring one of the TN's home from work for the weekend to verify.
Also ghosting is about the same as my 244T and much worse with AMA off and I know the 244T was revered for its horrible gaming aspects when I bought it. The ghosting didn't bother me then like it does now.
My samsung 650S should be here this morning. I will also have it for the weekend to compare. But I am definitely sending the GW2450HM back. Unless I got a dud, I will say stay away from this monitor. Unless all you are looking for is a descent gaming monitor with better color than TN.
Given my experience I would say the 24" is not as nice as the Philips. The 27" is supposed to be better in all respects according to playwares.
I will say this, they have the input lag right. I don't have CRT's to compare to but the GW2450HM is more responsive then any of my LCD's (244T, L245WP, 930BF)
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Ok, my Samsung T240 (TN) does this:
My camera is kinda crappy so picture is bad but you get the idea. ISO 1600 Shutter 1/160.
Can you guys take a picture of your GW2x50HM panels using this test?
What did you use for that test? I can do it tonight before I pack up the GW2450HM to send back.
I just got my Samsung 650S and yeah... hands down this beats the GW2450HM. Hands down. Nicer bezel, easier controls for OSD, better contrast, less color shift, better colors (out of the box I was pretty well happy just turned down brightness and contrast a little and dropped blue a little), and semi-gloss coating. And yes it is semi gloss which I define as you can see reflections but not like a mirror. Like I can see my face in it but it is all blurry and light sources hitting it are difussed.
Just loaded up Diablo III on this and ran around and it looks so much nicer.
BUT! Ghosting is horrible. Without overdrive hardforums leaves massive streaks accross the screen as you move the window around (its just like looking at a cPVA screen). It's horrible. Has to be on the fastest setting for ghosting to be bearable and even then text is blurry while running around in DIII (though not so blurry you can't read it, and the text doesn't dim which I found odd).
If I can get used to this ghosting this is my new monitor.
Still debating whether I should order the GW2750HM and try it...
EDIT: hah looked back at the prad review of the SA650D and my calibration by eye came to the exact same results they did. 50-50-46 RGB leaving contrast on 75 and turning down the brightness.
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Hi Bun-bun,
I used the test here:
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/testsoftware/ghosting.html
I think I know what you guys are talking about now. I'm using a 20" Dell IPS (2007FP) screen at work and I can see the red trail quite clearly. The TN panel doesn't have as much trail. Now your comments about the 24" really shook things up, because I was willing to sacrifice a bit response time for better video viewing. If its bad in both, then maybe there is no point of me getting one. I did order the 27" one however, since it is on special over here. I wonder if the 27" philips is a better buy for $20 more.
I used the test here:
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/testsoftware/ghosting.html
I think I know what you guys are talking about now. I'm using a 20" Dell IPS (2007FP) screen at work and I can see the red trail quite clearly. The TN panel doesn't have as much trail. Now your comments about the 24" really shook things up, because I was willing to sacrifice a bit response time for better video viewing. If its bad in both, then maybe there is no point of me getting one. I did order the 27" one however, since it is on special over here. I wonder if the 27" philips is a better buy for $20 more.
I took mine back today - full refund. After leaving Fry's, I went to Microcenter. I looked from the sides of all their display monitors, most of which were TN panels. All were better than the GW2450 I returned. My GW2450 had color/contrast shift if I just moved me head a few inches to the side. Whereas with the TN monitor's, on display at Microcenter, I had to go completely to the side to see the same amount of shift (and I used regular applications, like Word pad, browsers etc., not the store display video, while I was doing this check.) So mine was worse (not comparable but actually more shift than a TN) than the average TN panel monitor.
I checked the HP ZR2440w with the same prad.de flash ghosting test animation. At first it looked the same as my GW2450 showed (GW2450 on premium AMA.) I then thought, hey maybe the BenQ is not bad in ghosting if it looks the same because ZR2440w is one of the best current IPS, per TFT Monitor Review's test, in non-ghosting. Then I thought to check its control panel and found it had its over-drive off. I turned its over-drive on (only option is on or off, not degrees of over-drive), and then the animation showed no red streaks; it did have some pael grey small outline (over-drive I guess) but not bad and it was not streaky like the red tails with its over drive off but uniform small pael outline on side of the moving square. It looked similar/same to my NEC on the test - I guess my NEC has over-drive although it is not a user controled option.
So it seems my GW2450 with premium over-drive looks like a HP ZR2440w with no over-drive. I suspect the GW2450 is probably a native 25ms panel, and the advertised 12ms (4ms GtG) is not correct. Its premium over-drive probably puts it around a 16ms which is probably the native response of the HP and other current IPS models with no over-drive on them.
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According to playwares the GW2750HM is the best of the AMVA. I was going to but the phillips 24" based on prad's reviews but there are none available to me
I concur with everything said here.
I read the translated engrish for that review too.. I am concerned that the stuff shipped to korea is different than the stuff shipped here. What if its the same.. maybe Medion can run some tests for us. The 27" is too good of a deal to pass up.. it's 259.99 here.
Bun-bun, where u located? NCIX US has this:
http://us./products/?sku=71226&vpn=273P3QPYEB/27&manufacture=PHILIPS
Guys, I feel for you. There are some things that you mention (such as noticing ghosting) that could be sujective, so my input there doesn't help much. There are other things that I could measure that are more objective, and my 27" just isn't doing those things. I wish that I could get my hands on a 24" version to witness this myself.
As for running tests, I'll run any that I can, so just tell me what you need. A photo comparison to the ACD might not be happening because my wife and I don't want to deal with the hassle of messing with one of our desktops on a work day (I work Fri-Tue) with 2 kids to deal with. So, I'll just give the best impressions that I can in that regard.
I had previously gone through 4 of the best-reviewed non-120hz TN panels, and this by far beats those in every area except response time (which is close enough for me). There is no way they are using the same panel in those 24" models as the 27" model, based on what we've seen in this thread.
Edit: The only thing that I can think of is that the non-HM versions (what we got in North America) are using lower quality panels. Case in point, usually when a monitor is offered in both 24" and 27" variants, running the same resolution, the price difference isn't too significant. For Samsung, it's $30-$50. For the 2450 vs. 2750HM, it's $219 to $399 in BenQ's MSRP. That's more than just 3", speakers, and a DAC. There is clearly something going on there.
As for running tests, I'll run any that I can, so just tell me what you need. A photo comparison to the ACD might not be happening because my wife and I don't want to deal with the hassle of messing with one of our desktops on a work day (I work Fri-Tue) with 2 kids to deal with. So, I'll just give the best impressions that I can in that regard.
I had previously gone through 4 of the best-reviewed non-120hz TN panels, and this by far beats those in every area except response time (which is close enough for me). There is no way they are using the same panel in those 24" models as the 27" model, based on what we've seen in this thread.
Edit: The only thing that I can think of is that the non-HM versions (what we got in North America) are using lower quality panels. Case in point, usually when a monitor is offered in both 24" and 27" variants, running the same resolution, the price difference isn't too significant. For Samsung, it's $30-$50. For the 2450 vs. 2750HM, it's $219 to $399 in BenQ's MSRP. That's more than just 3", speakers, and a DAC. There is clearly something going on there.
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Namelessme
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The semi-gloss coating is pretty much the same as a television semi-glossy coating then? Sort of a shiny, very, very light matte, right?
The ghosting thing I find peculiar though. It never really crossed my mind that it could be a big issue with modern day panels, especially since I don't play many PC games.
How is the LED backlight on it? No blasting blue-white light, I hope?
This may be a dumb question, but is reduced color coverage a big deal for the Samsung? I believe Prad had it around 85% s-rgb coverage. And at what point would a reduced s-rgb negatively affect photoshop work (amateur), or just regular monitor usage?
I got the HM version of the 24" But it was $120 cheaper than the 27" which put up a red flag for me but I bought it anyway.
Take that black grey bar photo and take a picture like I did. That should be enough to compare our findings.
Yeah the coating is very similar to Samsung Plasma. Less shiny. I like it. Like a very very light matte.
This is the best LED backlight I have ever seen. I will have to wait till I get home to really compare it though.
The reduced color coverage may be a big deal. What I have noticed is green-yellow's look weird. I don't think it will affect regular use but could definitely be a deal breaker for photoshop use. To make green's look good (they look neon right now) I have to make everything else look red. Anyone have any ideas how I could fix that? Blue's and Red's look find albeit all colors look a tad dark.
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How does the Samsung's coating compare to the GW2450 you had?
Light and day different between GW2450HM and S24A650S. No reflection at all on the BenQ where I can see a blurred version of myself in the Samsung if its off.
EDIT: absolutely no sparkle what so ever on whites or solid colors on the S24A650S. Now I know what people mean by dirty monitors lol. I look over at my TN and between the coating and better contrast I think the TN is dusty lol
EDIT: absolutely no sparkle what so ever on whites or solid colors on the S24A650S. Now I know what people mean by dirty monitors lol. I look over at my TN and between the coating and better contrast I think the TN is dusty lol
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The gw24 doesn't sound good. In prad's review of the asus ml249h they mentioned abnormally severe gamma shift for and poor contrast (800:1)....maybe the GW24 is using the same panel instead of thee same panel found in benq's ew/vw/bl panels.
Overclock.ru has a review of the Samsung S27A650D,I don't recall it having the same limited colour space like the 24." For reference most ips tablets only cover up to 60% of the sRGB colour space.
Overclock.ru has a review of the Samsung S27A650D,I don't recall it having the same limited colour space like the 24." For reference most ips tablets only cover up to 60% of the sRGB colour space.
I could see a blur of myself on the GW2450 - blur though no detail.