Mass Effect 3 SPOILERS THREAD

I still think it would have been fun had one of Shepard's mates been indoctrinated earlier in the game. Had this been the case, I'd have no doubt that the ending is Shepard's indoctrination.

It could have been like KoToR when Bastila gets turned to the dark side and you have to fight her at the end. Part of the reason I'm willing to give BioWare so much credit with ME3, in fact, is because I know they've made some stories with fine endings in the past.
 
ballpoint said:
I have a moderate liking for the ending. I finished the game a week ago and can definitely say no other game ending has ever stuck with me this way.

As someone who has read a lot of hard sci-fi over the years, I've become accustomed to unknowable alien intelligences revealing themselves or their grand plans in the closing parts of a story.

If the ending was supposed to be a literal series of events, then yes I have some major problems with the execution of that part of the story, and the introduction of the kid AI... but I don't think it's a travesty, just a bit disappointing and ham-fisted.

But I'm given to believe it was an indoctrination attempt and you're probably going to wake up with the reaper invasion still going on. There were plenty of signs that you were in some kind of dreamlike state going forward from the point you woke up after Harbinger's attack.

One thing I don't really get is exactly what "IT" is supposed to mean as far as whether the events shown actually happened in the physical reality of the game or not. Like, did the mass relays actually blow up or was that part of some vision on Sheppard's part? Was he really on the citadel talking to that AI or was harbinger just beaming that experience into his mind?

If they don't answer some of these questions in the DLC I'll be a bit pissed off.
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If I think about it as indoctrination then it doesn't bother me nearly as much. Taken at face value I think it's total shit. It's the worst type of science fiction and even worse, it's badly executed. Shepard and crew deserve better.

J W said:
I still think it would have been fun had one of Shepard's mates been indoctrinated earlier in the game. Had this been the case, I'd have no doubt that the ending is Shepard's indoctrination.

It could have been like KoToR when Bastila gets turned to the dark side and you have to fight her at the end. Part of the reason I'm willing to give BioWare so much credit with ME3, in fact, is because I know they've made some stories with fine endings in the past.
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Except that this makes no sense. None of his squad mates are showing any signs of indoctrination. In fact the only one who does show any is Shepard himself/herself. Shepard is the only one who has had direct conversations with Harbinger, and most importantly, the device in the Bahak system where he was in proximity of it for no less than two days.

The game is fucking sad enough. I do not want to have to kill a squad mate. (Or if renegade, ANOTHER ONE.)
 
so BioWare is going to change the ending?...the only thing they can realistically do is add an option where you can ignore the god child's choices and Renegade his ass...anything else would involve changing too many variables that would affect more then just the last 5 minutes...plus they won't be able to program in an ending based on different people's playthroughs

I think they had another ending and scrapped it and now we will get that original or extended ending...seems like too much work otherwise...I think I remember an article which said that Martin Sheen (Illusive Man) was supposed to wrap up his voice work on the game in August 2011 but they delayed it until January 2012...this tells me that something got screwed up at the end
 
polonyc2 said:
so BioWare is going to change the ending?...the only thing they can realistically do is add an option where you can ignore the god child's choices and Renegade his ass...anything else would involve changing too many variables that would affect more then just the last 5 minutes...plus they won't be able to program in an ending based on different people's playthroughs

I think they had another ending and scrapped it and now we will get that original or extended ending...seems like too much work otherwise...I think I remember an article which said that Martin Sheen (Illusive Man) was supposed to wrap up his voice work on the game in August 2011 but they delayed it until January 2012...this tells me that something got screwed up at the end
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Yes, BioWare is doing a new ending or new endings. They've said as much. They haven't said exactly what they were doing beyond clarification of the endings seen. But that is a rather vague comment. If it turns out to be indoctrination that we see at the end of ME3, that will be clear cut, but we then have no idea how the game will progress from that point. BioWare is announcing their plans sometime in April and we'll have a better idea of what they are doing at that time. If they were simply giving us new cut scenes or re-edited cut scenes of the current endings, we'd probably have that as a free or cheap ass DLC by now and we don't. Delaying announcement of plans until April tells me that this game was incomplete and we are getting the rest of it later. EA shoving the game out the door doesn't change the amount of work that BioWare needed for them to feel the game was finished. It looks like EA should have given them the time they wanted. More to the point it looks like the amount of work BioWare has to do is tremendous and therefore we are going to get more than just revamped cutscenes.

Again rumor has it that the game was to be pushed back even further. BioWare decided to change a bunch of things due to the script leak. It looks like they didn't get time to finish it before EA forced it out the door. If you think about it, EA spent a crap ton of money on advertising this game. Delays were probably unacceptable and this ending was whipped up in a very short amount of time to "complete" the game. I think we will see a better final act for the game with new endings.

If you think about it, Mass Effect 2 had an awesome final act. Opinions on the human Reaper not withstanding, you fought hordes of collector's, listened to Harbinger taunt you and your squad mates, and then you had specific objectives to accomplish and you had to choose the right team members to accomplish each task. Bad decisions at that stage had the consequence of either mission failure, or your squad mates dying. It even could have led to beating the game, but Shepard actually dying. We got none of that in ME3's final act. You just fought hordes and that was it. You had a singular objective beyond getting to the beam. Your squad was just along for the ride. The rest of your allies gathered over three games weren't even fucking seen.

The game more or less ends abruptly. The quality of the final act after you say good bye to everyone just tanks horribly.
 
Does anyone else think that ME3's ending actually diminished ME1 and ME2? I reinstalled the first two games anticipating wanting to do a full-replay once I knew how my decisions from the previous games played out... only to find that it didn't matter. So instead I uninstalled them. :/
 
awsalick said:
Does anyone else think that ME3's ending actually diminished ME1 and ME2? I reinstalled the first two games anticipating wanting to do a full-replay once I knew how my decisions from the previous games played out... only to find that it didn't matter. So instead I uninstalled them. :/
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Not only that. The ending for Mass Effect 3 conflicts with plot points and story presented in ME1 and 2.
 
awsalick said:
Does anyone else think that ME3's ending actually diminished ME1 and ME2? I reinstalled the first two games anticipating wanting to do a full-replay once I knew how my decisions from the previous games played out... only to find that it didn't matter. So instead I uninstalled them. :/
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It does. I'm actually going back through the whole series, hopefully so that by the time I'm finished again with ME3 I'll have an idea of what BioWare is going to do about the end to ME3. But yeah, I agree with you. Immediately after finishing ME3 I wished I hadn't played the entire series. That last 15 minutes ruins the entire experience. Once I had a chance to go over it in my mind and saw all the plot holes, I started thinking along the lines of the indoctrination theory. Once I arrived at reading all that material, I started to hate the ending a little less. It still pisses me off, but after BioWare announcing that they are addressing the fan's concerns in some fashion via DLC, I am hopeful that the matter will be resolved.

And really, you shouldn't let 15 minutes of the third installment ruin your experience with the whole series. Having been through ME3 three times now I can tell you that your journey can be a bit different depending on your decisions. In fact the ending to all the priority missions can be wildly different depending on your choices. Seemingly unrelated choices can have a huge impact on another part of the story. Take Thane for example. Not seeing him in the Citadel hospital in ME3 makes the entire scenario with Ashley / Kaiden and Udina play out quite differently. And if you romanced Kaiden or Ashley, I can tell you right now that the dialog between Shepard and them in the Normandy airlock after that incident, assuming they survived plays out almost completely differently. And your choices in that conversation could actually lock you out of the romance with your ME1 flame.

The other way that plays out, I don't see much of a risk of locking you out of the romance. This of course assumes you weren't locked out of the romance earlier when they first wake up in the hospital. (My Renegade Shepard is a cheating bastard who basically went Captain Kirk on every woman he met in ME2.) Romantically, I fucked the game up so bad I had two options. The gay guy or Liara. I obviously chose the latter. The only reason I didn't alienate (no pun intended) her was because I hadn't done anything wrong to her directly. But the tone of their romance is a bit different if you didn't carry it over from ME1.
 
CrimsonKnight13 said:
This really deserves the Admiral Ackbar "It's a trap!" photo... I'm pretty sure that once you start running towards the relay site, you're just heading towards being Harbinger's thrawl. From that point forward, you're just hopped up on Reaper narcotics & under direct control of everything Harbinger wants you to see.
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I agree with you at least on broad terms. The moment that beam hits you, it's over. Everything that happens after that, regardless of theories, HAS to be considered suspect. Look at the way things look, sound and feel. Nothing seems "right" even granted that Shepherd is beat up bad.

Pas that, we're back to the fact that the Star Child is basically deceiving you. There's only one real choice where the Reapers don't benefit somehow and that's destruction. The two other choices are dupes basically and to me the Star Child is an enemy.

Hell, the more I think about it, maybe that's where alt-f4 should happen instead of even waiting for the Andersen "I'm proud of you" moment.
 
Q-BZ said:
I agree with you at least on broad terms. The moment that beam hits you, it's over. Everything that happens after that, regardless of theories, HAS to be considered suspect. Look at the way things look, sound and feel. Nothing seems "right" even granted that Shepherd is beat up bad.

Pas that, we're back to the fact that the Star Child is basically deceiving you. There's only one real choice where the Reapers don't benefit somehow and that's destruction. The two other choices are dupes basically and to me the Star Child is an enemy.

Hell, the more I think about it, maybe that's where alt-f4 should happen instead of even waiting for the Andersen "I'm proud of you" moment.
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I think the star child is a manipulation of Harbinger as well. A very 2D character comparatively to the Reapers, so any choice you make is the same choice: the pathway of no free-will.
 
I've studied BioWare's response almost as much as studied the ending itself, I've seen no evidence that BioWare in any way intended the Indoctrination theory to apply to the actual released product. Though I will admit they may have played with the idea, before abandoning it due to time constraints. So no matter what they do, ME3's original ending will stand as a very trollish/slimey thing for them to have done.

However if they buckle down and run with the Indoctrination theory, or some other idea that is equally plausible, they will have at slightly redeemed themselves, in my eyes at least.

Of course that's only true if:
1. it's free
2. the writing, gameplay, and cinematics are up to par with the endings of ME1 and ME2.
 
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Maybe EA made them pull it and make it DLC. They don't want to just come out and say "yeah that's what the ending is, you got us," so they can try a "Surprise bitches! It was indoctrination! Now pay us $10" announcement.
 
stewartjm said:
Of course that's only true if:
1. it's free
2. the writing, gameplay, and cinematics are up to par with the endings of ME1 and ME2.
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I strongly agree with this. It should be free... hell I do not plan to purchase anything more from EA/Bioware going forward after this ME3 fiasco ending.

But I think they will have a hard time getting high production value/voice acting if they have a lot to create... gathering the voice actors will be tough in the short amount of time needed due to their personal schedules.

We may end up with a lot of cinematic's but less unique voice acting if they cannot pull everyone together.
 
stewartjm said:
I've studied BioWare's response almost as much as studied the ending itself, I've seen no evidence that BioWare in any way intended the Indoctrination theory to apply to the actual released product. Though I will admit they may have played with the idea, before abandoning it due to time constraints. So no matter what they do, ME3's original ending will stand as a very trollish/slimey thing for them to have done.

However if they buckle down and run with the Indoctrination theory, or some other idea that is equally plausible, they will have at slightly redeemed themselves, in my eyes at least.

Of course that's only true if:
1. it's free
2. the writing, gameplay, and cinematics are up to par with the endings of ME1 and ME2.
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As have I, and as much as I like the indoctrination theory, I believe you are correct. This is how they ended it either due to time constraints, or as a creative choice. Both are pitiful ways to handle things, but it is what it is.

Dallows said:
Maybe EA made them pull it and make it DLC. They don't want to just come out and say "yeah that's what the ending is, you got us," so they can try a "Surprise bitches! It was indoctrination! Now pay us $10" announcement.
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Actually, it's BioWare's responses that tell me this isn't the case. They are announcing plans in April as to what they will do. If they pulled the existing ending to make DLC out of it, then most likely we'd see a much sooner release rather than them waiting a month to simply announce plans for it.

In truth one of two things happened:
  • BioWare didn't like the responses they got to the leaked script. So they decided to change up the game and created this and this shitty batch of endings is how they truly wanted it to end.
  • The ending was done in order to complete the game quickly as a result of a time crunch.

Now if you analyze these choices we can draw a few conclusions based on each. All are speculative, but some conclusions are hard to deny or argue against.

With regard to the ending being the way they wanted it, one has to take the post supposedly written by one of the writing staff at face value. He claimed that Casey Hudson pulled rank and did the ending with little to no oversight. If that's true, then the argument for this being the way they wanted it seems pretty strong. Of course the guy who supposedly wrote that denies it now and BioWare hasn't said anything about it as far as I know. There seems to be a lot of knowledge about the development process for the game which tells me that if it wasn't him, it was certainly someone close to people involved in the high levels of the project.

Working against this theory is the game itself. Or at least, it shows that BioWare wasn't totally ignorant of the backlash they were likely to receive as a result of it. So as a result, they placed plot holes and certain imagery into the game itself which leaves them a way out. The two largest being that Anderson's gunshot wound transfers to Shepard when Anderson dies and Shepard waking up in the rubble in London if you choose a certain ending and have a high enough EMS. Also radio chatter, etc. tell you that this is most likely a halluciantion, along with the final dream sequence in the game.

Now this is even more speculatory on my part. I have to wonder if BioWare, or at least the creative forces behind it, didn't do this in some way to sabotage EA and to stick it to the man. They had to know the game's ending would be poorly received. People were too involved in the games and stories to go for this. It also goes against everything BioWare said up to the release about the game itself. The way they ended it essentially buys them time to finish the game and do it right. EA probably wouldn't let them spend the money on developing so much single player content otherwise. Probably pushing them toward Mass Effect franchise spin offs like a first person shooter, or perhaps even Mass Effect 4. We'd probably have seen a couple small DLCs and that's it.

But by sticking it hard to EA, it shows EA's decision making to be flawed and to let BioWare operate the way it used to before the buyout. Remember Mass Effect and it's leads were working with BioWare and EA wasn't a factor when the first game was released. It definitely tainted ME2 with all the DLC stuff in the minds of many. So what we might be seeing is the result of angry BioWare employees sticking it to EA. I don't know, but it's the only way I can reconcile the fact that BioWare had to know this well in advance. Think about it. The ending as it stands pretty much puts to rest any possibility of developing good and meaningful ME universe content which takes place after ME3. They basically destroyed the universe they created in the final moments of the game. The games are in general too well written for this ending to fly on it's own creatively. The fan reaction is too visceral. BioWare put EA's nuts in a vice in a sense. We blew everything up. If you want it fixed for a ME4, or anything else, leave us to work how we want to work.

With regard to the theory that it was just a time crunch, I have some thoughts as well. With all the advertising and promotions EA had done, a delay was likely unacceptable. There was a Mass Effect 3 super bowl ad for fuck's sake. Remember the space edition promotion? That wasn't cheap. The lack of diversity in the ending suggests it's a time crunch style ending. And the doubts placed in the mind of the player as to whether or not the whole thing is a dream was done on purpose in order to leave BioWare a way to expand the game via DLC. This was most likely done in light of the time crunch and the lack of choice brings us down to the same path. The path we need to continue the game.

And even the fact that Casey Hudson and Mac Walters may have gone off the rails on their own doesn't preclude this possibility. As I've said before, we'll likely never know the truth, but the way things are shaping up, this ending was intentional, the indoctrination theory isn't necessarily what they were going for, at least not with all the subtext and detail we attribute to it, and whether we like it or not, there will be paid DLC coming after this.
 
Dan_D said:
and whether we like it or not, there will be paid DLC coming after this.
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I think this is the most important point considering everything. Heck, the game ends with a prompt to "Give us your moneyz to keep playing!"
 
Dallows said:
Sorry but this post is way to long to read just for a video game.
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Which one? That doesn't exactly clear things up. I've got many posts in the Mass Effect 3 threads and on the forum in general which are extremely long. I've hit the character limit for a post more than a few times.
 
Dan_D said:
Which one? That doesn't exactly clear things up. I've got many posts in the Mass Effect 3 threads and on the forum in general which are extremely long. I've hit the character limit for a post more than a few times.
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The one you just posted. #573
 
Dan D. has earned a stipend for all the writing he's done about this game. ;)
 
Dan_D said:
If I think about it as indoctrination then it doesn't bother me nearly as much. Taken at face value I think it's total shit. It's the worst type of science fiction and even worse, it's badly executed. Shepard and crew deserve better.



Except that this makes no sense. None of his squad mates are showing any signs of indoctrination. In fact the only one who does show any is Shepard himself/herself. Shepard is the only one who has had direct conversations with Harbinger, and most importantly, the device in the Bahak system where he was in proximity of it for no less than two days.

The game is fucking sad enough. I do not want to have to kill a squad mate. (Or if renegade, ANOTHER ONE.)
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LOL! It could have been something interesting at least. Javik's crew was turned against him. Also, it wouldn't have to be someone on the current squad. Who would have missed Jacob or Miranda?
 
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J W said:
LOL! It could have been something interesting at least. Javak's crew was turned against him. Also, it wouldn't have to be someone on the current squad. Who would have missed Jacob or Miranda?
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I for one would miss Miranda.

I replayed ME2 just so I could keep her after the suicide mission.
 
MaZa said:
Care to elaborate? This is a spoilers thread afterall. :)
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I'm talking about the emergency induction port, of course! I'm not sure, but it may actually be available regardless of whether Miranda lives or dies.
 
J W said:
I'm talking about the emergency induction port, of course! I'm not sure, but it may actually be available regardless of whether Miranda lives or dies.
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Ah that one! Yes, hilarious scene. Especially when she drunk trolls Javik through intercom. (a lot of people seem to miss this, I did on my first playthrough) :D
 
Q-BZ said:
Dan D. has earned a stipend for all the writing he's done about this game. ;)
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times like this i wish Hard did full reviews and not just how well a game runs
then i could have a review source i could actually trust
hell maybe you guys could turn the game review world on its head like you did with the PC system reviews (i really do miss that if i ever win the lotto ill totally support that out of my own pocket lol) and PSU reviews
 
MaZa said:
Ah that one! Yes, hilarious scene. Especially when she drunk trolls Javik through intercom. (a lot of people seem to miss this, I did on my first playthrough) :D
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Eee..mergancy induction... poort...
 
Elios said:
times like this i wish Hard did full reviews and not just how well a game runs
then i could have a review source i could actually trust
hell maybe you guys could turn the game review world on its head like you did with the PC system reviews (i really do miss that if i ever win the lotto ill totally support that out of my own pocket lol) and PSU reviews
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Well I'd love to do a full review of Mass Effect 3, but I've probably written more text in all the ME3 threads than an actual review should contain. Plus, as a general rule, HardOCP doesn't really do that kind of content as you said.
 
J W said:
I'm talking about the emergency induction port, of course! I'm not sure, but it may actually be available regardless of whether Miranda lives or dies.
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It is there regardless. If Miranda dies, and you romanced her in ME2, the dialog changes. So evidently, it is supposed to be there regardless.
 
J W said:
It's interesting that some people are starting to pop up here and there who like the ending. I do wonder a couple of things about these people: Do they consider themselves "core fans" or just casual fans? Have they just finished the game or has it been a few days? What do they specifically like about the ending?
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From my view. I like bittersweet endings. In the end, It was about the triumph of one man. The embodiment of the mono-myth. The journey of the hero. I think this is a much more personal and effective ending. the star child was symbolism, a device in Shepard's dreams that was revealed to him at the end through transference of his subconscious, ala Contact. It's very new testament. To understand god, we must become like little children.


It was Shepard who first feared the reapers, he stopped the collectors, and unified a galactic fleet. He decided the fate of whole races. Through his will alone, he was given the choice to decide the fate of the reapers and the galaxy for the next cycle.


And I see many complaints about how this idea was borrowed from that sci-fi series and so forth. All sci-fi borrows from something else. How many ideas did Lucas steal from other stories and movies? Like hundreds?

In Dune, which came before Star Wars... it's "the voice"..in Star Wars it's "Jedi mind trick"
Paul's grandfather was actually the Baron, his arch enemy. Luke's father was Vader. And so on and so on and so on.

Speaking of Dune, the idea of the "rebellious synthetics" was thought of and resolved before the crux of the first Dune book even began. Frank Herbert addressed of the idea of AI, synthetic life by writing a back-story for the original Dune called the Butlerian Jihad. After they wiped out all AI synthetics in that war, true AI was never allowed to be produced again. Ever see a robot or droid in Dune? That's because Herbert thought of the idea of robot rebellion already and completely dismissed it as an element in his story. An idea that he probably got from Asimov.

I took ME3 at face value. I didn't judge it based on the previous two games because I knew better than to do that. I enjoyed the terrific gameplay. I didn't think of what holes were in the plot. It was foreshadowed that ultimate victory against the reapers was impossible, that the galaxy was dealing with a force that they really couldn't defeat. So Shepard, the only true victor, sacrificed himself for the greater good of the galaxy. In a game about the consequences of decision-making, did you ever really, truly think that the galaxy could ever be rid of the reapers without other sacrifices and compromises being made?

Has this idea been played before? The Matrix, etc.? Of course. But that's sci-fi. That's movie-making and story telling. That's plot 27b from the sci-fi playbook in effect.
 
spacing guild said:
From my view. I like bittersweet endings. In the end, It was about the triumph of one man. The embodiment of the mono-myth. The journey of the hero. I think this is a much more personal and effective ending. the star child was symbolism, a device in Shepard's dreams that was revealed to him at the end through transference of his subconscious, ala Contact. It's very new testament. To understand god, we must become like little children.
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Your opinion. That's all good.

And I see many complaints about how this idea was borrowed from that sci-fi series and so forth. All sci-fi borrows from something else. How many ideas did Lucas steal from other stories and movies? Like hundreds?
*snip*
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That's not really a complaint in this forum. Definitely not one of the major ones that is repeatedly discussed

I took ME3 at face value. I didn't judge it based on the previous two games because I knew better than to do that.
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Evaluating a game's story based on 1/3 of the total story line. That's odd.

I enjoyed the terrific gameplay.
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Good, most of us did too. As you would notice if you read through the posts.

I didn't think of what holes were in the plot.
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And that makes your evaluation superior? You didn't think too much during your evaluation so it's better?

It was foreshadowed that ultimate victory against the reapers was impossible, that the galaxy was dealing with a force that they really couldn't defeat.
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It was also foreshadowed that only a true unification of species would be able to defeat the reapers. Wait, you didn't think too much during your play through/evaluation. It's all good, I understand.

So Shepard, the only true victor, sacrificed himself for the greater good of the galaxy. In a game about the consequences of decision-making, did you ever really, truly think that the galaxy could ever be rid of the reapers without other sacrifices and compromises being made?
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I'm pretty sure that isn't a major theme in this forum. Most people are pissed with the plot holes. Oh right, you didn't think about the plot holes. Gotcha.


Has this idea been played before? The Matrix, etc.? Of course. But that's sci-fi. That's movie-making and story telling. That's plot 27b from the sci-fi playbook in effect.
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Again, not really a big concern around here. Just the plot holes really. Oh right, you didn't think during your play through. Gotcha.
 
Maplehamwich said:
That's not really a complaint in this forum. Definitely not one of the major ones that is repeatedly discussed
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Yeah... Dan D never mentioned how the story borrowed from other stories. No offense to him, but it's been a complaint.



Maplehamwich said:
Evaluating a game's story based on 1/3 of the total story line. That's odd.
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Tell me what was missing from ME1 and ME2 that had anything to do with ME3?

NOTHING. That's what.


Maplehamwich said:
Again, not really a big concern around here. Just the plot holes really. Oh right, you didn't think during your play through. Gotcha.
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And I was thinking about the big picture, unlike you whose feeble mindedness hinged on irrelevant details instead of seeing the larger pattern.
 
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spacing guild said:
Yeah... Dan D never mentioned how the story borrowed from other stories. No offense to him, but it's been a complaint.
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He's mentioned that a few times. I'm not so sure what you're going on about. Seems like you're enjoying the game & disgruntled about it at the same time... :confused:
 
CrimsonKnight13 said:
He's mentioned that a few times. I'm not so sure what you're going on about. Seems like you're enjoying the game & disgruntled about it at the same time... :confused:
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I'm not disgruntled at all. I enjoyed the game LOVED it for what it was and I clearly defended why.

Other people have a problem with my assessment. I just wanted to know why so many other people hated the ending so much. They hate because they are indoctrinated to hate the ending. By the reapers.:p
 
It's tough to tell who's being sarcastic here, but I never understood Dan's posts to be condemnations of the "borrowed" stories. More like, the BioWare writers deserve props for having incorporating so much from so many different sources. Inspiration more than anything, really. Of course BioWare's content can't be completely original. I think everyone pretty much agrees on that (again, I can't tell about the sarcasm, so I may be way off).
 
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