Windows 8 Adoption Rates Behind Vista Rates

[heatlesssun]

Yes you have, and a few things:

- you claimed Clover Trail was substantially better than the old Netbook Atoms. That claim turned out to be patently false. You then reverted to arguing that it "felt" faster but declined to state that it's due to the OS being easier on the CPU rather than the CPU being any better.
In fact, it's actually worse than some of the old netbook Atoms as far as graphics goes, and when you stray outside of MS's walled garden you suddenly find that x86 compatibility isn't worth shit if the CPU doesn't have enough resources to run your x86 applications.

Have you ever used Windows 8 on something like an HP Slate 500 or Asus Eee PC 1000H? Have you ever used Windows 8 on something like a Samsung Ativ Smart PC 500T? I've said it repeatedly, the performance difference between these Atom platforms across the board night and day and I can easily demonstrate that difference. I do not know why you continue to being up this particular subject with absolutely no hands on experience with the subject.

- you also claimed that Metro screen was superior to Windows start menu on the desktop because it's "bigger and easier to click." With a mouse and keyboard, accuracy isn't an issue but wasted space sure as fuck is.

This is a difference of opinion, not a delusion. Yes, particularly with a track pad with gestures, the Start Screen can be very quick and easy. I don't use the hot corners much and moving a mouse to click on a button, how is that easier than a simple gesture?

- You were actually refuting what the retail channels were saying when they claimed Win8 was going to be poorly perceived by the public and sales were going to be poor. In fact, you brought up links from other distributors that claimed otherwise to prove your point. That didn't work out and Win8 sales weren't just poor, they've ranged from expectedly poor on the laptop/desktop end, to abysmally poor in phones and tablets (OEMs not being on board is Microsoft's failure as well, so quit bringing up that point as it doesn't lend your argument any credibility)

Huh? I've been saying for months that I never thought that Windows 8 would have a big launch simply because that tended to be the thinking by most analysts especially in light of lack of Windows 8 tablets. You've several times pointed out that Windows 8 tablets have accounted for less than 1% of Windows 8 sales. I've asked you more than a few times just how many Windows 8 tablets were available and you've always dodged that question. 5 devices accounted for less than 1% of Windows 8 sales, not a shock.

To your credit, you haven't been pushing people to upgrade to Win8 if they have Win7, so you're not THAT delusional, but nevertheless some of the shit you say isn't just crazy but flat out wrong.

Thanks, I do appreciate your amazing ability to tell me how something right in front of me works that's you've never touched before.

Why should someone learn the shell when most traditional desktop folks have absolutely zero need for it? To quote you:

By shell I meant GUI shell, such as the Start Button and Start Menu.

On tablets and phones it makes quite a bit of sense (phones more than tablets), but people aren't buying those either.

I've not talked about Windows Phone in these discussions of Windows 8. That's a different matter and while related Windows 8 tablets aren't based on phone OSes like Apple and Google tablets, they are based on a desktop OS, which is the core the issue that we keep debating. And again, you keep wanting to cite poor sales of Windows 8 tablets and that's a difficult point to make at this time with so few Windows 8 tablets currently on the market. I've looked into this and right now there's simply no where near enough public information to form an opinion on the how well Windows 8 tablets are doing, there's just not enough devices in the chain at the moment.

This only holds true provided a vast majority of people need Windows for certain must-have applications, yet the sales figures imply that that just isn't the case. For those that do need Windows for a legacy application then older hardware is generally more than enough. For those that use productivity software then Win8 makes zero sense as it provides no tangible benefit and the current flock of x86 tablets/convertibles don't have enough horsepower to drive such applications (or do but cost an arm and a leg). Either way, a typical consumer has more "apps" in Android and iOS than they do on Windows, whether Metro or the scattered universe that is Windows legacy. As the guy above said, most people need just Facebook and YouTube and that's something that Android and iOS can deliver better than Metro/Win8. People didn't buy Windows because of its amazing list of applications but rather because it was the only game in town. Now with tablets and smartphones, Windows and its x86 legacy compliance means next to nothing. For the few that do need x86 legacy, Win8/Metro is a product that just doesn't fit.

Ok then, go do everything you do on a computer with a tablet or phone then.

Everything that your average user does on a PC can be done better and safer on an Android and iOS tablet, and if they do need to type up a lengthy email or Office then they fire up their "legacy" computer which they won't upgrade for another 5-10 years.

But then you'll say that a Clover Trail tablet is no good because it can't run desktop Windows games.

It is, but the UI changes with the format. It would be like MS designing a WP8/Win8 Metro and traditional desktop OSes, but when you dock your phone/tablet it then behaves like your old desktop. The ideal UI will always change with the peripherals and format, and apparently that's a memo that didn't make its way to Ballmer.

Windows 8 does more of this than you might realize. One example, have a tablet connected to a keyboard mouse and type. Touch the screen in a text input area, the onscreen keyboard pops us and the mouse cursor disappears. Start typing on the keyboard and move the mouse and they are back.

 

[pelo]

Have you ever used Windows 8 on something like an HP Slate 500 or Asus Eee PC 1000H? Have you ever used Windows 8 on something like a Samsung Ativ Smart PC 500T? I've said it repeatedly, the performance difference between these Atom platforms across the board night and day and I can easily demonstrate that difference. I do not know why you continue to being up this particular subject with absolutely no hands on experience with the subject.

Benchmarks don't lie - you do, though.

This is a difference of opinion, not a delusion. Yes, particularly with a track pad with gestures, the Start Screen can be very quick and easy. I don't use the hot corners much and moving a mouse to click on a button, how is that easier than a simple gesture?

Easier than hitting your windows key, for example? God knows that was difficult.

Huh? I've been saying for months that I never thought that Windows 8 would have a big launch simply because that tended to be the thinking by most analysts especially in light of lack of Windows 8 tablets. You've several times pointed out that Windows 8 tablets have accounted for less than 1% of Windows 8 sales. I've asked you more than a few times just how many Windows 8 tablets were available and you've always dodged that question. 5 devices accounted for less than 1% of Windows 8 sales, not a shock.

If it doesn't sell because not enough OEMs are on board then Microsoft has failed to provide enough incentive and reason for the OEMs to spend time and resources to these new Win8 convertibles. Given that the few that are on market aren't selling well and MS's own efforts have resulted in cutting orders by 50%, yes, the sales figures have been really really poor and it came out of the gate with all the ferocity and drive of a dead cat.

Thanks, I do appreciate your amazing ability to tell me how something right in front of me works that's you've never touched before.

Careful, I've used Win8 beta for months and even RTM for a couple of weeks before going back to Win7 for good (Ubuntu on my laptop). I've given it a chance and it's failed to impress me, along with millions of others.

Ok then, go do everything you do on a computer with a tablet or phone then.

I won't, but many people certainly will. In fact, even Microsoft agrees with me and disagrees with you, although they're under the impression people will actually buy MS stuff... which is quite silly, frankly.

But then you'll say that a Clover Trail tablet is no good because it can't run desktop Windows games.

If it can't do x86 well, then why the hell would you pay an obscene amount of money for it? x86 legacy compatibility revolves around two things and these two things only: gaming and productivity software. Clover Trail can't do either of those well, and sometimes can't do them at all - even light gaming on older titles or multitasking and large applications that requires more than 2GB RAM is impossible.

Windows 8 does more of this than you might realize. One example, have a tablet connected to a keyboard mouse and type. Touch the screen in a text input area, the onscreen keyboard pops us and the mouse cursor disappears. Start typing on the keyboard and move the mouse and they are back.

What about utilizing multimonitor support on the desktop? Or changing the start screen so you don't get full screen badness? Or what about something absolutely critical like synchronizing between Microsoft's own Metro and x86 applications? If you use IE in Metro and want to use IE in x86 desktop then you'll quickly learn that they're two completely different versions of the same thing that don't interact with each other whatsoever. For instance, if you save a bookmark in Metro IE then want/need x86 IE you'll see that your settings and bookmarks never existed in the first place.

Tell me again how I don't know anything.

 

[heatlesssun]

Can you please think past hybrids/tablets? You've said that people can use Win 8 just for the desktop. Why should they have to learn a confusing new interface that offers them pretty much zero benefit?

My primary and most powerful Windows 8 device is a dual 1920x1200 non-touch desktop which I'm using right now. The point that I've made about perspective seems to not get through. When I first started getting public information about Windows 8 it seemed to be that it had to be used across multiple form factors and input methods to get an good understanding of it's purpose. That's what it was designed to handle. If Windows' destiny is only about the desktop, if it has no purpose beyond the desktop, Windows 8 will fail and Microsoft is much trouble. pelo says that people don't care about Windows. I say they don't care about desktops. That's not to say that the desktop is dead or unimportant, but it is in relative decline. If Windows can't become more mobile it has no future in the consumer space. It's that simple.

ALL the advertising from MS is about fancy new tablets/hybrids which honestly most people don't care about. If you're going to persist in the belief that Win 8 only matters for those devices, then there's no discussion to be had.

Who are most people? If there is all of this love of desktop computing then why have desktops and laptops not been selling well long before Windows 8? If you know of something that will sell more and more plain old desktops then you really need to speak to Microsoft. As supposedly of big of a Microsoft fanboy that I am, I have no idea how to make desktops appeal more to average people in this age of smart phones and tablets.

'Trying to learn Windows 8' sounds so fancy, when there are no benefits for the average user, and things take longer to do, and they have to go to another person or various online sites to help them. Does it offer anything new? No. It's just different for change's sake, because they want to force a touch based Metro UI on everyone.

PCs that are lighter than the large iPad that can, at least when the apps are there, do everything that an iPad does and run a lot of Windows desktop applications with a keyboard and mouse? That's kind of new.

Is it so hard for you to see past your own experiences (please don't tell us yet again that you use Win 8 on a number of devices for a year and how it works for you) and realize how hard it is to use on normal pc's?

Windows 8 is very complex, I've said that many times. But so are Windows 7, Vista and XP to a good extent. My wife gets on my main Windows 8 workstation everyday and uses my tablets. I won't pretend that she has any clue what's going own but she did get the basics in 5 minutes and has no problem doing everything she ever did on a Windows 7 computer.

But I've said many times in these threads that I have a different perspective on Windows 8. I wasn't trying to criticize so much as to learn it. I've been using Windows since 1.0 and every version since. Figure out the important stuff then move on. I perfectly understand that's not how even most people here view Windows. I get called a fanboy when I'm simply an expert user, nothing more and adapting to new versions of Windows is something that I've done for so long it's not even a big deal.

Windows 8 is probably too complex, not only from the UI perspective but from a why the hell does a tablet run something like Visual Studio or SQL Server perspective.

 

[heatlesssun]

Benchmarks don't lie - you do, though.

So in other words you've never touched any of this stuff and have no real world idea about stuff performs. Got it.

Easier than hitting your windows key, for example? God knows that was difficult.

Every time a Windows 8 proponent brings up using the Windows key there's a swift and furious rebuke. I don't disagree but the argument over activating the Start Screen vs the Start Menu has been over the hidden UI, not the Windows key in plain sight.

If it doesn't sell because not enough OEMs are on board then Microsoft has failed to provide enough incentive and reason for the OEMs to spend time and resources to these new Win8 convertibles. Given that the few that are on market aren't selling well and MS's own efforts have resulted in cutting orders by 50%, yes, the sales figures have been really really poor and it came out of the gate with all the ferocity and drive of a dead cat.

You mixing all this up again and seem to missed the point that several OEMs missed launched dates because they didn't have parts and that Intel had many issues with producing Clover Trails. You seem to know a lot a about Clover Trail but never have once bought up a point that's been well noted about Intel's inability to produce this platform in volume at the launch of Windows 8 and this is the key platform to the success of Windows 8.

Careful, I've used Win8 beta for months and even RTM for a couple of weeks before going back to Win7 for good (Ubuntu on my laptop). I've given it a chance and it's failed to impress me, along with millions of others.

You've never used it on a Clover Trail device.

I won't, but many people certainly will. In fact, even Microsoft agrees with me and disagrees with you, although they're under the impression people will actually buy MS stuff... which is quite silly, frankly.

Don't you think I've quoted this before? It's at the heart of why Windows 8 is what it is.

If it can't do x86 well, then why the hell would you pay an obscene amount of money for it? x86 legacy compatibility revolves around two things and these two things only: gaming and productivity software. Clover Trail can't do either of those well, and sometimes can't do them at all - even light gaming on older titles or multitasking and large applications that requires more than 2GB RAM is impossible.

Not going to debate you yet again about something you've never used.

If you use IE in Metro and want to use IE in x86 desktop then you'll quickly learn that they're two completely different versions of the same thing that don't interact with each other whatsoever. For instance, if you save a bookmark in Metro IE then want/need x86 IE you'll see that your settings and bookmarks never existed in the first place.

This is incorrect. You can share IE favorites in the root Favorites directory between desktop and Metro IE and they sync between devices logged in the same Microsoft account. And the history syncs up as well.

 

[MrCrispy]

First of all, I think you are probably a good teacher and your wife benefits from that. Windows 8 is not complex in and of itself, its complex because it goes against established practices Windows has used for decades and thus muscle memory in users.

Trying to fit touch in a non-touch OS can be done 2 ways -

1. make the best compromise possible without hurting usability
2. make the OS touch first and adapt it on other form factors (i.e. use the same gestures but with mouse)

MS chose #2, which is why the whole OS feels very unnatural and complex. There's nothing intuitive or simple about opening the charms bar. Its there because that's how a tablet works.

Your 2nd assumption is that this is somehow going to move the Windows brand forward, and I don't think it will. The amount of negative reactions on the desktop is far greater than any positives from using it on a tablet/hybrid. I'm not even sure its that great of a touch OS even, to be honest, when compared against iOS and Android.

People want a powerful OS for pc's with no compromises, and one for touch. Its called Windows RT. Running x86 desktop apps on a tablet is extremely niche and there's little market demand for it. If and when Ultrabooks/hybrids take off, we can easily have 2 environments on it, there's no need to pollute the 2 and compromise both of them.

There is a stubbornness in 'one UI fits all' which is hard to fathom - because as pretty much every UI in computing history has shown, one UI does not work for everything.

 

[heatlesssun]

First of all, I think you are probably a good teacher and your wife benefits from that. Windows 8 is not complex in and of itself, its complex because it goes against established practices Windows has used for decades and thus muscle memory in users.

First of all thanks. The reason I say that Windows 8 is a complex UI is because it is essentially two different UIs. As delusional and much of a fanboy as I am called it pretty obvious that two different things are going on in terms of the UI with Windows 8. There's a good reason for it though.

Trying to fit touch in a non-touch OS can be done 2 ways -

1. make the best compromise possible without hurting usability
2. make the OS touch first and adapt it on other form factors (i.e. use the same gestures but with mouse)

I agree with what you've said here. But the problem isn't the OS, it's the applications. One of Windows' greatest strengths is also a curse, backwards compatibility and longevity. Most of the problem with Windows on tablets was simply the fact that the applications were not built for touch. In two months since the GA release of Windows 8 there are far more touch and tablet suitable applications for it than in the decade after the release of Windows XP Tablet PC Edition.

MS chose #2, which is why the whole OS feels very unnatural and complex. There's nothing intuitive or simple about opening the charms bar. Its there because that's how a tablet works.

Intuitive perhaps not. Unfamiliar definitely. Right corner hot spot, swipe from the right of a screen or track pad complex? Not getting that one.

Your 2nd assumption is that this is somehow going to move the Windows brand forward, and I don't think it will. The amount of negative reactions on the desktop is far greater than any positives from using it on a tablet/hybrid. I'm not even sure its that great of a touch OS even, to be honest, when compared against iOS and Android.

If this were the first time Microsoft got negative reactions for something they did that didn't pan out I'd be more willing to accept your conclusion. Windows Vista! Everyone is going to a Macs and Linux. Yet Windows 8 just went past Linux. Office 2007! Everyone is going to Open Office, Google Docs! Micro$oft is dooooooooomed! Neither really played out that way.

Running x86 desktop apps on a tablet is extremely niche and there's little market demand for it. If and when Ultrabooks/hybrids take off, we can easily have 2 environments on it, there's no need to pollute the 2 and compromise both of them.

This may be true, but in all of the Windows 8 is doomed talk this is the one that's REALLY hard to get a finger one. I know that pelo has linked in several times sales numbers that showed Windows 8 tablets at less than 1% of Windows 8 sales but I pointed out that there were like only 5 Windows 8 tablets to but during those stats so neither one of has any idea.

There is a stubbornness in 'one UI fits all' which is hard to fathom - because as pretty much every UI in computing history has shown, one UI does not work for everything.

Thing is there's never been the hardware in computing history to even begin to do the things that Windows 8 does on x86. Were are the 1.5 lbs. 10 hour battery life Windows devices from last year?

 

[MrCrispy]

heatless, lets talk about Win 8 on a traditional pc with no trackpad and definitely no touch. Hundreds of millions of these exist and yet more hundreds of millions will be sold. For these users, touch doesn't exist.

Do you still maintain the gestures used for charms bar, closing an app etc are in any way friendly? I am amazed you think its no big deal when it will directly result in frustration and maybe inability to use the pc (have you ever seen a new user trying to figure out how to logoff or shut down?).

The point you always miss (or ignore) is that it doesn't matter if the new hybrid devices sell 1% or 10% - normal non touch pc's are not going away anytime soon, and the OS is very poorly suited for those users. This is blatantly obvious in the user feedback and has been for a long time now. People hate Win 8 because they get punished for not having a touch device.

btw, I don't think you're delusional or a fanboy. Just wrong

 

[Wrench00]

heatless, lets talk about Win 8 on a traditional pc with no trackpad and definitely no touch. Hundreds of millions of these exist and yet more hundreds of millions will be sold. For these users, touch doesn't exist.

Do you still maintain the gestures used for charms bar, closing an app etc are in any way friendly? I am amazed you think its no big deal when it will directly result in frustration and maybe inability to use the pc (have you ever seen a new user trying to figure out how to logoff or shut down?).

The point you always miss (or ignore) is that it doesn't matter if the new hybrid devices sell 1% or 10% - normal non touch pc's are not going away anytime soon, and the OS is very poorly suited for those users. This is blatantly obvious in the user feedback and has been for a long time now. People hate Win 8 because they get punished for not having a touch device.

btw, I don't think you're delusional or a fanboy. Just wrong

I fucking hate metro. Its a pain in the ass. I just built a cluster from 2012 and metro is nothing but a fucking hindrance, especially if your working through rdp or vmware console its a fucking headache and a nuesance why the fuck did microsoft put metro on a server is my first question its a fucking gong show. If some one tells me to learn the keyboard shortcuts I am gone tell you to fuck right off since they are altered in a rdp or console session so now I have to learn more fucking shortcuts that work via those remote sessions. Its fucking bad enough I have to now memorize hundreds of powershell command lines to do shit I have fucking metro pissing me off. Before on a server it was start->search-> enter. Now its fucking start-> charms bar-> search now what search is it an app or a setting? or file? Some don't come up in either.
The primary fucking thing I despise is that fucking useless cock sucking charms bar fucking bullshit. Why THE FUCK IS THERE A PASSIVE FUCKING ELEMENT TO AN ACTIVE ELEMENT OS? The whole fucking hover over to activate bullshit. Seriously WHY???????? I want to see to put some 4 inch stilletos on and take a fucking kick in the crotch of the fuckwad at microsoft that came up with this horse shit.
What usually take me 4 hours to do took me 9. Not to mention the numerous OS breaking bugs. Who the fuck tested this shit?

$#@#$@#TER GFASDFVXCVVVR@#$%#$TYRGT ER $%@#$%$@##$ @R$
FUCKING METRO MUST DIE.

 

[MrCrispy]

Tell us how you really feel, don't hold back Wrench

And yeah, he makes a good point. Forcing Server 2012 to use the Metro UI is just another instance of how MS's policy was 'Metro must be used everywhere. Screw anyone who complains, and screw usability'.

 

[Wrench00]

Tell us how you really feel, don't hold back Wrench

And yeah, he makes a good point. Forcing Server 2012 to use the Metro UI is just another instance of how MS's policy was 'Metro must be used everywhere. Screw anyone who complains, and screw usability'.

Next time I got to a MS tech tour I am gone fucking rip an asshole to MS tech evangelist.

 

[Eman D. Rahym]

I fucking hate metro. Its a pain in the ass. I just built a cluster from 2012 and metro is nothing but a fucking hindrance, especially if your working through rdp or vmware console its a fucking headache and a nuesance why the fuck did microsoft put metro on a server is my first question its a fucking gong show. If some one tells me to learn the keyboard shortcuts I am gone tell you to fuck right off since they are altered in a rdp or console session so now I have to learn more fucking shortcuts that work via those remote sessions. Its fucking bad enough I have to now memorize hundreds of powershell command lines to do shit I have fucking metro pissing me off. Before on a server it was start->search-> enter. Now its fucking start-> charms bar-> search now what search is it an app or a setting? or file? Some don't come up in either.
The primary fucking thing I despise is that fucking useless cock sucking charms bar fucking bullshit. Why THE FUCK IS THERE A PASSIVE FUCKING ELEMENT TO AN ACTIVE ELEMENT OS? The whole fucking hover over to activate bullshit. Seriously WHY???????? I want to see to put some 4 inch stilletos on and take a fucking kick in the crotch of the fuckwad at microsoft that came up with this horse shit.
What usually take me 4 hours to do took me 9. Not to mention the numerous OS breaking bugs. Who the fuck tested this shit?

$#@#$@#TER GFASDFVXCVVVR@#$%#$TYRGT ER $%@#$%$@##$ @R$
FUCKING METRO MUST DIE.

Gee, Wrench00, sorry to read that you had such a bad day. I wish there was some way I could help you out!

Have you posted any of your issues or concerns over on the technet fora? You might be able to get more than just sympathy over there.

http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/category/windowsserver

 

[nOrVow]

I fucking hate metro. Its a pain in the ass. I just built a cluster from 2012 and metro is nothing but a fucking hindrance, especially if your working through rdp or vmware console its a fucking headache and a nuesance why the fuck did microsoft put metro on a server is my first question its a fucking gong show. If some one tells me to learn the keyboard shortcuts I am gone tell you to fuck right off since they are altered in a rdp or console session so now I have to learn more fucking shortcuts that work via those remote sessions. Its fucking bad enough I have to now memorize hundreds of powershell command lines to do shit I have fucking metro pissing me off. Before on a server it was start->search-> enter. Now its fucking start-> charms bar-> search now what search is it an app or a setting? or file? Some don't come up in either.
The primary fucking thing I despise is that fucking useless cock sucking charms bar fucking bullshit. Why THE FUCK IS THERE A PASSIVE FUCKING ELEMENT TO AN ACTIVE ELEMENT OS? The whole fucking hover over to activate bullshit. Seriously WHY???????? I want to see to put some 4 inch stilletos on and take a fucking kick in the crotch of the fuckwad at microsoft that came up with this horse shit.
What usually take me 4 hours to do took me 9. Not to mention the numerous OS breaking bugs. Who the fuck tested this shit?

$#@#$@#TER GFASDFVXCVVVR@#$%#$TYRGT ER $%@#$%$@##$ @R$
FUCKING METRO MUST DIE.

Ah! The passion! Give me more! LOL

 

[heatlesssun]

DELETE

 

[heatlesssun]

heatless, lets talk about Win 8 on a traditional pc with no trackpad and definitely no touch. Hundreds of millions of these exist and yet more hundreds of millions will be sold. For these users, touch doesn't exist.

Touch capable track pads do exist for plenty of Windows users.

Do you still maintain the gestures used for charms bar, closing an app etc are in any way friendly? I am amazed you think its no big deal when it will directly result in frustration and maybe inability to use the pc (have you ever seen a new user trying to figure out how to logoff or shut down?).

Here's where I think Microsoft didn't do a goof job of explaining Windows 8 where it's actually pretty well designed with some exceptions. There's actually very little that can or needs to be done from the Charms Bar on the desktop with the notable exception of shutting down, rebooting, etc. Desktop searching can be done from File Explorer with more readily available options than in Windows 7.

The point you always miss (or ignore) is that it doesn't matter if the new hybrid devices sell 1% or 10% - normal non touch pc's are not going away anytime soon, and the OS is very poorly suited for those users. This is blatantly obvious in the user feedback and has been for a long time now. People hate Win 8 because they get punished for not having a touch device.

btw, I don't think you're delusional or a fanboy. Just wrong

I agree, the Windows 8 simply isn't designed for current hardware. And that's the point as current PC hardware is expected to really collapse in sales far greater than what even the most rabid Windows haters are reporting now.

 

[MrCrispy]

Touch capable track pads do exist for plenty of Windows users.

Pc's. Not laptops. No trackpad mate.

I agree, the Windows 8 simply isn't designed for current hardware. And that's the point as current PC hardware is expected to really collapse in sales far greater than what even the most rabid Windows haters are reporting now.

PC sales are going to collapse? According to whom? The predictions are for first world countries and call for increasing market share for tablets/hybrids, not a collapse in traditional pc's. And businesses are not going to replace their pc's for employees with touchscreens.

"An OS designed for tomorrows hardware if things go as we suspect, sucks to be you today" - is that the Win 8 slogan then??!!

 

[wonderfield]

The PC industry is projected to remain a growth industry through at least 2016. And yes, that includes traditional desktop PCs. The notion that it's "collapsing" is fearmongering at its very finest.

 

[Tsumi]

But it's a slow growth market, while the mobile market is booming, and projected to far exceed the desktop market.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Touch capable track pads do exist for plenty of Windows users.



Here's where I think Microsoft didn't do a goof job of explaining Windows 8 where it's actually pretty well designed with some exceptions. There's actually very little that can or needs to be done from the Charms Bar on the desktop with the notable exception of shutting down, rebooting, etc. Desktop searching can be done from File Explorer with more readily available options than in Windows 7.



I agree, the Windows 8 simply isn't designed for current hardware. And that's the point as current PC hardware is expected to really collapse in sales far greater than what even the most rabid Windows haters are reporting now.

lol you'll say anything, won't you...

 

[heatlesssun]

lol you'll say anything, won't you...

If by anything you mean perfectly logical then sure.

 

[heatlesssun]

Pc's. Not laptops. No trackpad mate.

Then touch capable mice.

PC sales are going to collapse? According to whom? The predictions are for first world countries and call for increasing market share for tablets/hybrids, not a collapse in traditional pc's. And businesses are not going to replace their pc's for employees with touchscreens.

"An OS designed for tomorrows hardware if things go as we suspect, sucks to be you today" - is that the Win 8 slogan then??!!

If Windows 8 is as horrible as many people say in these threads then yeah, PC sales will collapse. But this isn't what I said exactly.

 

[XOR != OR]

If this were the first time Microsoft got negative reactions for something they did that didn't pan out I'd be more willing to accept your conclusion. Windows Vista! Everyone is going to a Macs and Linux. Yet Windows 8 just went past Linux. Office 2007! Everyone is going to Open Office, Google Docs! Micro$oft is dooooooooomed! Neither really played out that way.

I missed this originally, thanks for highlighting it formfiller.

heatless, it's interesting to note what DID happen; Windows 7. An OS every *did* like. And bam! That took all the market share that had been waiting for a decent successor to xp.

I don't know how many of you remember what one of the major complaints about vista was; UAC. It bugged the shit out of the end user. My argument at the time was that it trained users to simply say "yes" to get to their picture of a funny cat. Sure enough, come 7, what happened? A dialing back of UAC ( as well as general performance increases, which was one of the other complaints about vista ).

Fast forward to now; The chief complaint is the forcing of the new UI. I think the fear, this time, is that MS will ramrod this new UI down our throats, to hell with what users want. You see indications of this not only with Windows 8, but with Server 2012 ( can someone tell me why a touch-centric interface is on a server? ). It's their way or the highway, and of course we don't have a viable alternative beyond sticking with older versions of windows.

The irony of all this noise is, at least on this forum, that it wouldn't be nearly as loud if it weren't for the MS evangelists ( in many cases, I suspect that to be a job title ). Think about it; someone would gripe and that'd be the end of it.

 

[heatlesssun]

All that is just NOT comparable to the previous versions. Never before were there such regressions in usability of Windows and "feel" of the company. You cannot will that fact just away.

I don't think you've read what I've actually said about Windows 8. I've never claimed that there weren't issues and that there wasn't some learning required and that the changes weren't really for the benefit of the desktop. But I use Windows 8 every single day across multiple machines and if my experience with it were like the way some people describe, why would I use it? So you honestly think that the vast bulk of what is done with Windows 7 on the desktop is that different than Windows 8 on the desktop? The overwhelming majority of my time in Windows, pick whatever version you like, is spent inside of applications, those aren't different between Windows 7 and 8.

Metro apps add a wrinkle and it is a different UI than the traditional windowed UI environment of desktops. But that UI model works much better on tablets. The point of Windows 8 was to make Windows more mobile. I understand that people think that's incongruous with the desktop and that there should be a switch and I'm not opposed to the idea. But long term simply falling back to a 20 year old UI that's optimized for keyboard and mouse operation has it's own issues with a desktop market that simply is mature and not growing much in relation to mobile devices.

And if the PC/laptop market is collapsing, why is the Macbook market going great?

Windows 8 will probably become the 4th most widely used OS version world wide this month ahead of all versions OS X. Macs really are such a much smaller and niche market compared to Windows PCs that I don't think this comparison means much. And even Apple has said that it believes that the iPad is taking away from Mac sales.

No one is going to do productivity stuff on a tablet UI darn it.

Overly broad statement. There's a number of productive things that can be done on tablets like digital art, note taking, quick and dirty document revisions on the go, etc.

BTW, there is a way for any one to sideload Metro apps, just install Visual Studio 2012 for Windows 8 for free. It's not meant as way to distribute apps however. In some ways I would have liked for Microsoft to have a more open approach to Metro but that wouldn't be without it's issues.

 

[heatlesssun]

The irony of all this noise is, at least on this forum, that it wouldn't be nearly as loud if it weren't for the MS evangelists ( in many cases, I suspect that to be a job title ). Think about it; someone would gripe and that'd be the end of it.

If people want to complain then more power to them. But not every complaint or criticism made about Windows 8 is necessarily valid. There's no way I could even begin to use Windows 8 as easily as I do with all the stuff said were true. I'd still be trying to figure out how to switch between Metro apps.

 

[XOR != OR]

If people want to complain then more power to them. But not every complaint or criticism made about Windows 8 is necessarily valid.

Of course not. I'd say that, outside of the UI gripes, most of it isn't valid, actually. The problem is with the style of proselytizing many folks choose to engage in. Full of logical fallacies and dishonest argument tactics. Hell, look at your own posts in this thread: why does linux desktop adoption matter? Seriously, why bring up that statistic, when we're talking about Windows 8 market penetration? Does that make any sense to you?

 

[devil22]

Seems odd to me how people think Win 8 would be selling much better if it was Win 7 part 2. Why the hell would anyone buy it then? "There goes MS, charging for a service pack again" would be the mob line, and they'd be right (for once). Not saying change is good for change sake, but staying the same is definitely a good way to upset customers. While some (boring corporate type users) appreciate that, others want excitement out of computing devices, it's why Linux and apple garner so much attention in the tech world despite their anemic desktop market share, because they are new and different (to many people.) I agree with the idea of MS trying something new and different, and find it superior for everything. I'm curious what kind of mind finds clicking buttons on the start page and additions like metro apps so onerous, but that's another issue. People can use start button programs, so they really have no reason to complain, but it's too much fun to do so I suppose.

 

[pelo]

Seems odd to me how people think Win 8 would be selling much better if it was Win 7 part 2. Why the hell would anyone buy it then? "There goes MS, charging for a service pack again" would be the mob line, and they'd be right (for once).

People can use start button programs, so they really have no reason to complain, but it's too much fun to do so I suppose.

I believe you need only to look at your first sentence to find a reason for people's negative comments regarding Win8. MS is asking you to buy a service pack for Win7 with most of the added features being focused on devices they're not using. If people had Win7 tablets and upgraded to Win8 then they wouldn't be complaining, but it's the other way around

 

[heatlesssun]

Hell, look at your own posts in this thread: why does linux desktop adoption matter? Seriously, why bring up that statistic, when we're talking about Windows 8 market penetration? Does that make any sense to you?

The data this post is based on includes Linux and OS X market share.

 

[devil22]

I believe you need only to look at your first sentence to find a reason for people's negative comments regarding Win8. MS is asking you to buy a service pack for Win7 with most of the added features being focused on devices they're not using. If people had Win7 tablets and upgraded to Win8 then they wouldn't be complaining, but it's the other way around

The fact that an interface works on a tablet and desktop, does not mean it is worse on a desktop. We've been through mouse clicks numerous times, while not the only thing that matters I can't think of something that is quantifiable that matters more. People are given a more intuitive, more efficient, more information providing UI with Win 8, if they choose to like Win 7, or an abacus, more, that doesn't reflect on the decisions made in win 8 imo.

 

[wonderfield]

At least three people. Potentially as many as five.

It is of interest to me, though, that no mention was made of Windows 8 adoption vs., say, BeOS. That would really make Windows 8 sales look good.

 

[XOR != OR]

Not saying change is good for change sake, but staying the same is definitely a good way to upset customers.

This is an interesting position, fraught with confusion, so let's clarify, shall we?

Keeping GUI elements the same on the desktop. This would not upset customers. In fact, it is the expectation and the primary complaint against Win8.

Keeping the core OS the same ( ie: copy 7 ). Yes, this would upset people. Although, interestingly, not as much. Consider; most here recognize that the "upgrade" market is incredibly small, most new OS purchases are part of a system purchase or under an MS contract. ie: the cost would be paid regardless, so it wouldn't be all that big of a deal.

However, 8 could have been a very interesting and "exciting" upgrade. Had they left the desktop experience alone, but added in ModernUI in a less obtrusive manner ( entirely possible ), that would have addressed many complaints. Certainly mine; I'd actually welcome W8 at that point.

 

[Hagrid]

This is an interesting position, fraught with confusion, so let's clarify, shall we?

Keeping GUI elements the same on the desktop. This would not upset customers. In fact, it is the expectation and the primary complaint against Win8.

Keeping the core OS the same ( ie: copy 7 ). Yes, this would upset people. Although, interestingly, not as much. Consider; most here recognize that the "upgrade" market is incredibly small, most new OS purchases are part of a system purchase or under an MS contract. ie: the cost would be paid regardless, so it wouldn't be all that big of a deal.

However, 8 could have been a very interesting and "exciting" upgrade. Had they left the desktop experience alone, but added in ModernUI in a less obtrusive manner ( entirely possible ), that would have addressed many complaints. Certainly mine; I'd actually welcome W8 at that point.

You mean MS could of just added the good improvements and left the GUI alone or made it an option?!
Bah, screw the users, they all want metro!
Less obtrusive? I agree, it should be an option to have metro, since the same gui interface has worked fine, and can be tweaked if needed.

Its all about have the option/choice......

 

[devil22]

ARGH. I am losing my mind here. I am posting one huge bomber after another with the failings of W8 and this [...] keeps playing his broken record about mouse clicks. How can someone keep his calm here?

Yes it's a broken record when I talk of mouse clicks, even just to mention we always talk about it, but not when someone AGAIN insinuates laws of physics that don't exist about UIs being less efficient on desktops if they work on tablets.

Anyway, actually, there are more mouse clicks now most of the time (bringing up "All Programs" for example needs a right click to boot). The few cases where less clicks are involved in W8 get beaten by the huge amount of swiping and scrolling needed.

it's still 4 to open any app, which the same as opening programs from start menu folders in Win 7, potentially less as embedded folders (which I have seen) can be 5 clicks.

This is an interesting position, fraught with confusion, so let's clarify, shall we?

Keeping GUI elements the same on the desktop. This would not upset customers. In fact, it is the expectation and the primary complaint against Win8.

Keeping the core OS the same ( ie: copy 7 ). Yes, this would upset people. Although, interestingly, not as much. Consider; most here recognize that the "upgrade" market is incredibly small, most new OS purchases are part of a system purchase or under an MS contract. ie: the cost would be paid regardless, so it wouldn't be all that big of a deal.

However, 8 could have been a very interesting and "exciting" upgrade. Had they left the desktop experience alone, but added in ModernUI in a less obtrusive manner ( entirely possible ), that would have addressed many complaints. Certainly mine; I'd actually welcome W8 at that point.

Keeping the GUI elements the same would not upset users? Then wouldn't we, if we followed that advice, still be using Win 3.1's interface? Of course it upsets users. Do you want to be using Win 7's UI 25 years from now? *That* would make me think MS was just an lazy uninnovative abusive monopoly like many people like to say. anyway it almost certainly would not address your complaint, because you can get several start button replacement programs now, what's the difference if MS makes them if they work? Just download, install, and be happy. It'd be the same action more or less, you seem to be unhappy that everyone else will not see the wonders of computing as you know them, which is what gets addressed by MS making a classic start menu optional and default.

 

[XOR != OR]

Keeping the GUI elements the same would not upset users? Then wouldn't we, if we followed that advice, still be using Win 3.1's interface? Of course it upsets users.

And until you post evidence to support your position, that's merely your opinion.

( the rest of your post wandered in to the realm of fantasy, which lacks relevance to what we're talking about here. Hence why I chose to only address the quoted text )

 

[wonderfield]

EDIT: Nevermind.

 

[devil22]

And until you post evidence to support your position, that's merely your opinion.

( the rest of your post wandered in to the realm of fantasy, which lacks relevance to what we're talking about here. Hence why I chose to only address the quoted text )

Of course it's an opinion, just like everything you write is. Like the rest of my post being 'fantasy'.

 

[MrCrispy]

The fact that an interface works on a tablet and desktop, does not mean it is worse on a desktop.
.....
People are given a more intuitive, more efficient, more information providing UI with Win 8

There is nothing efficient about Win 8 UI for many scenarios on the desktop. Do you want to explain how the example of playing a mp3 and getting stuck in full screen Metro app is efficient?

It seems to me you just want to talk about Start Screen and gloss over the other problems.

 

[XOR != OR]

Of course it's an opinion, just like everything you write is. Like the rest of my post being 'fantasy'.

So, because it's your opinion, you'd be willing to further admit that your opinion may only relevant to you, right?

Conversely, my opinion may only be relevant to me ( I'd love to see what you think my opinion is, incidentally )...except the numbers suggest otherwise.

 

[devil22]

The most successful Windows versions were actually "service packs". Windows XP at first was little more than Windows 2000 with a new skin and Windows 7 is a bugfixed Vista for the most part.



What kind of [......]! Most people haven't even heard of desktop linux, forget that BS argument. Upset customers is good? Hello? That sentence:

it's why Linux and apple garner so much attention in the tech world despite their anemic desktop market share

Doesn't really compute, does it? If the marketshare is so low, how's that great? It's no f.. matter what tech hipsters are saying, SALES are important. You Metrotards are whacked in your priorities. Congratulations, now MS wants to out-hipster them all and their Windows sales are right in the stinker as a result and Mac goes up. Hope that was worth it. If I would run a company I would prefer boring press to bad sales. But I guess I am not hipster enough.



You should really read this: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1737557

Anyway, I am very sorry for my language, but it's very hard to keep calm reading such BS.

Market share is 'low' after 2 months, where it'd be low any way, big deal. Like I said before, Win 9 will come out, with some minor UI change, and everyone will say it's the best thing since sliced bread. MS does need innovation, visible innovation. MS needs excitement to grow, MS's stock was stagnant compared to competitors and windows is generally derided in the tech sphere because of lack of innovation I believe, so since they already own the desktop OS market, why not address the complaints, even if they're abstract and difficult to fix? Makes sense to me anyway. Don't care about your link, sum it up or something, I don't have time to read random links all over the net.

 

[devil22]

So, because it's your opinion, you'd be willing to further admit that your opinion may only relevant to you, right?

Conversely, my opinion may only be relevant to me ( I'd love to see what you think my opinion is, incidentally )...except the numbers suggest otherwise.

No it does not follow that my opinion is only relevant to me. When you get the haters to stop posting opinions I'll give a damn, until then I'm not even interested in your phony baloney logic fallacy arguments that you selectively apply. As far as your opinions, with no incentive (like that you will shut up or something) I see no reason to go through your post history reading the drivel you write and categorizing opinions from facts, lies, and every other random thing.

 

[MrCrispy]

How is the start screen more efficient for that matter?

In case devil didn't read this: There is no true central hub now. All the links to the document folders, control panel, power button etc. are randomly spread apart and you need to hunt them all down (mostly by exercising stupid mouse movements to bring the Repulsion Bar up) The hierarchy menu (reachable through hidden "All Programs") is even more confusing now than it was with the Start Menu. Despite having the whole screen at their disposal, they have somehow managed to make it more worse - it's an intimidating wall of text that scares far more than the old "All Programs" ever did.

Far more things are hidden, it's less central. There's lots of scrolling involved (far more nauseating than scrolling the start menu, because the whole screen scrolls this time), handling with the search results is a mess (can't drag and drop them into programs for instance) there are no MRU lists, installing new programs shuffles that thing around and many times barfs dozens of items on it, because there are no folders. You have the jarring context switch, you have no indication that it is searchable (yet is is), and on and on. The only improvement is that you have a bit more items at glance before you need to scroll around. Whoopie doo.

All your complaints are valid and all of them will be ignored because the new screen is 'visual' and 'touch friendly' so it must be better. The only real improvement is Live Tiles, and that's only for a few programs that support it. You forgot how search results are not combined and you have to move the mouse all across the screen to do it.

MS ignored the context switch, the huge waste of space, and the problem with organizing many apps, because tablet users don't multitask, have only 1 screen, and Win 8 is an OS for tablets,

I find the new Start the least bothersome of the changes in Win 8 though.