Windows 8 Adoption Rates Behind Vista Rates

[heatlesssun]

Let me ask this then; what are your "fail" conditions? At what point do you consider a MS operating system to have failed? Has any MS operating system failed, in your eyes?

Good questions. As is well noted, Windows tends to follow a series of boom and bust cycles, Windows 8 will probably be no different. Microsoft took a lot of risk with Windows 8 and it's obviously not be well received overall. But every version of Windows since Windows 3.0 has been commercially successful and again I don't see Windows 8 being any different.

But the competitive landscape if much different than it was even three years ago when Windows 7 was released and the real competition for Windows 8 isn't OS X or desktop Linux but iOS and Android tablets. In that battle I would suspect that from a market penetration standpoint, i.e. tablets, Windows 8 will not do well.

I've said this many times, Microsoft is in a lot of trouble, it has no choice but to take on more risk than they'd like and probably not a lot of choice in pissing off customers that want a "pure" desktop. Microsoft won that battle long ago, but the desktop is longer the front line in the IT war. It's smart phones and tablets and Microsoft is well behind there. The most valuable thing Microsoft has to bring to the tablet fight is the Windows desktop, they really don't have anything else. If the blow the desktop market, so what. It's already been shot to hell and it's not like anything on the desktop can even beat Windows 8.

 

[pelo]

The most valuable thing Microsoft has to bring to the tablet fight is the Windows desktop, they really don't have anything else. If the blow the desktop market, so what. It's already been shot to hell and it's not like anything on the desktop can even beat Windows 8.

That's their biggest issue: incentive. Most users could care less for Windows desktop if they've already got an aging Windows machine that performs just as well as a new Windows machine. It's the same problem Intel face, actually. If Intel were to triple their CPU's performance people still wouldn't be lining up to buy them. Once you reach "good enough" you need to shake things up a bit and offer something different, yet MS and Intel are convinced that the same old will sell just like it used to. It won't, the market has moved on.

And leaning on PC sales isn't going to work anymore:

According to NPD Group, Windows 8 didn't prove to be enough of a draw over the holiday buying period to prop up a struggling PC notebook economy. Sales of Windows machines among consumers were reportedly down 11 percent year-over-year compared to where the market stood in 2011 — even after the high profile launch of Redmond's latest operating system on October 26th. The research company collected sales data from Best Buy, Walmart, and a number of online retailers for its somber assessment.

Bear in mind that laptops outsell desktops by a margin close to 3-to-1. So when laptop sales aren't doing well it means a lot more than desktop sales slumping.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/4/38...-reverse-declining-laptop-sales-over-holidays

If MS wants to remain relevant and a key player in the mobile market then they need to shape up and do it fast. x86 legacy advantage isn't an advantage but rather a hindrance that's limiting their product lines, a larger bloated OS, more expensive hardware and higher prices. They might even sell more Win8 devices than Win7 devices over the long run, but in that same amount of time Android and iOS may triple or quadruple that number in mobile.

 

[MrCrispy]

MS have no one but themselves to blame. Unlike every other OS, the story for Windows developers keeps changing every few months, and they can't even ensure compatibility or use even within the company. Take your pick of .NET, SL, HTML5, Managed C++, WinRT - it's a different message with each PDC/Build.

Windows Phone has now had 3+ years, and during this time, MS has done a terrible job in staying consistent. If all they have to bring to the mobile market is x86 compatibility and the desktop, they are in very deep trouble indeed.

Win 8 has been in development for at least 1.5 years, and so has Surface. MS has a fantastic developer evangelism program, they spend an unholy amount of money promoting it, MSDN is fantastic, and they have good relations. To launch Surface with no killer apps is criminal, it is almost unbelievable that after all this time they didn't have a bunch of apps ready to showcase.

The apps included in Win 8 are not very good, and they weren't even ready at launch. Whether this says something about how lacking WinRT is, or whether its about how badly run the division is, I don't know - but this is no way to promote an OS you are betting your entire company on.

 

[heatlesssun]

The problem for MS is that it's going to take years to eclipse XP and Win7, and that's *if* it ever does.

I agree with most of this and what you're stating here is basic reasoning behind why Windows 8 is what it is. I never expected the version know as Windows 8 to eclipse 7, however, XP is going to fall of the face of the earth in the next 16 months when support ends.

Their new OS was designed with convertible and mobile devices in mind, so it's success and failure hinge on how well the market accepts these convertible devices, tablets and phones. Right now, that picture is looking bleak.

I agree with this but it does look like tablets and touch laptops are where Windows 8 is doing well. And as I've said a number of times there's not enough of these devices on the market currently to even begin to make a judgment on this.

 

[pelo]

I agree with this but it does look like tablets and touch laptops are where Windows 8 is doing well. And as I've said a number of times there's not enough of these devices on the market currently to even begin to make a judgment on this.

That's exactly why you should pass judgment.

The reason for the lack of devices is the poor sales figures (look at laptop sales above), the higher prices, the boom of tablets, and that MS decided not to let their OEMs in on any of the product development until they officially released their product.

How is an HP or Dell supposed to make a tablet convertible in a few months that took Microsoft well over a year of planning? Seriously? That's not the OEMs fault, that's Microsoft's blame to shoulder. Had they been more vocal with their OEMs then we'd have a much larger product line to choose from instead of only a handful of devices. Had MS dumped legacy desktop support then there'd be no need to rely so heavily on Intel in the first place. Had MS supplied that must-have feature then sales would at least be mediocre. But now they're even losing critical features that are absolutely essential from competitors that before didn't mind providing Win32 alternatives. That's just poor planning and an an awful business decision. When Apple does it it's fine, but Apple doesn't have OEMs and has a significantly larger retail presence. Microsoft still heavily relies on these OEMs and to not let them in on what's going on and then blame them for not producing only a couple of months later is absolutely asinine.

Now with a weak MS that's not meeting expectations, Google is starting to boss it around. It's like the Netscape ordeal all over again, except this time Microsoft is on the receiving end.

 

[heatlesssun]

MS have no one but themselves to blame. Unlike every other OS, the story for Windows developers keeps changing every few months, and they can't even ensure compatibility or use even within the company. Take your pick of .NET, SL, HTML5, Managed C++, WinRT - it's a different message with each PDC/Build.

I agree with a lot of this but at the same time Microsoft makes a lot of effort to keep continuity in the development tools, and Visual Studio 2012 is a widely regarded as a great IDE. If one is familiar with Silverlight, Windows RT using C# and XAML is extremely similar. JavaScript and CSS are among the most widely used programing environments on the planet.

Windows Phone has now had 3+ years, and during this time, MS has done a terrible job in staying consistent. If all they have to bring to the mobile market is x86 compatibility and the desktop, they are in very deep trouble indeed.

Windows Phone is only 2+ years old. And yes Microsoft was well behind and had to get something out the door to replace Windows Mobile 6.x.

Win 8 has been in development for at least 1.5 years, and so has Surface. MS has a fantastic developer evangelism program, they spend an unholy amount of money promoting it, MSDN is fantastic, and they have good relations. To launch Surface with no killer apps is criminal, it is almost unbelievable that after all this time they didn't have a bunch of apps ready to showcase.

Again I don't disagree but what killer apps ever launch with a new platform? APIs, OS and development tools all changing at the same time is very difficult time to get developers to commit. And honestly, what are the killers apps? Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Google Maps. There's tons of politics behind all these apps that have nothing to do with technology.

The apps included in Win 8 are not very good, and they weren't even ready at launch. Whether this says something about how lacking WinRT is, or whether its about how badly run the division is, I don't know - but this is no way to promote an OS you are betting your entire company on.

I agree that the basic Microsoft productivity apps tend to suck. The content reader apps like News and Finance are excellent. But yes, Microsoft has a lot of work here to do.

 

[heatlesssun]

The reason for the lack of devices is the poor sales figures (look at laptop sales above), the higher prices, the boom of tablets, and that MS decided not to let their OEMs in on any of the product development until they officially released their product.

This doesn't make any sense. The lack of devices at launch was due to poor sales before anything went on sale?

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

I agree with a lot of this but at the same time Microsoft makes a lot of effort to keep continuity in the development tools, and Visual Studio 2012 is a widely regarded as a great IDE. If one is familiar with Silverlight, Windows RT using C# and XAML is extremely similar. JavaScript and CSS are among the most widely used programing environments on the planet.



Windows Phone is only 2+ years old. And yes Microsoft was well behind and had to get something out the door to replace Windows Mobile 6.x.



Again I don't disagree but what killer apps ever launch with a new platform? APIs, OS and development tools all changing at the same time is very difficult time to get developers to commit. And honestly, what are the killers apps? Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Google Maps. There's tons of politics behind all these apps that have nothing to do with technology.



I agree that the basic Microsoft productivity apps tend to suck. The content reader apps like News and Finance are excellent. But yes, Microsoft has a lot of work here to do.

Windows Phone/Mobile is more than 2 years old....come on now.....you prolly think that WP was a complete rewrite from WM 6.5 don't you? In reality it is based ON CE 6 kernel vs 5 for WM 6.X

 

[heatlesssun]

Windows Phone/Mobile is more than 2 years old....come on now.....you prolly think that WP was a complete rewrite from WM 6.5 don't you? In reality it is based ON CE 6 kernel vs 5 for WM 6.X

Windows Phone 7 came out in 2010. No, it wasn't a complete rewrite of Windows Mobile 6.x, but Windows Mobile 6.x development wasn't based on Silverlight. And of course Windows Phone 8 development is Windows RT kinda.

 

[pelo]

This doesn't make any sense. The lack of devices at launch was due to poor sales before anything went on sale?

Lack of appealing devices today is certainly partly due to poor sales figures for the one's that are currently available.

When Microsoft is halving the orders of a product they spent years developing it isn't exactly saying: "come in, the water's fine!"

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Windows Phone 7 came out in 2010. No, it wasn't a complete rewrite of Windows Mobile 6.x, but Windows Mobile 6.x development wasn't based on Silverlight. And of course Windows Phone 8 development is Windows RT kinda.

Wait what? Say that again...lol.. Windows Mobile/phone can trace it roots all the way back the early 90's. Obviously you understand that this is more than 2 years, right?

I bet you didn't even know that Vista's ring model can be traced all the way back to NT 3.X......

 

[heatlesssun]

Lack of appealing devices today is certainly partly due to poor sales figures for the one's that are currently available.

When Microsoft is halving the orders of a product they spent years developing it isn't exactly saying: "come in, the water's fine!"

Again, makes no sense. Many of these devices were announced many months before the launch of Windows 8 with launch dates a long time ago. And as often as you've bought up the NPD number of Windows 8 tablets making up less than 1% of Windows 8 sales you've never mentioned how many devices that consisted of. Further more HP, Dell and Lenovo are launching Clover Trail devices this month. If Windows 8 sales were so poor why didn't they just cancel these devices?

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Again, makes no sense. Many of these devices were announced many months before the launch of Windows 8 with launch dates a long time ago. And as often as you've bought up the NPD number of Windows 8 tablets making up less than 1% of Windows 8 sales you've never mentioned how many devices that consisted of. Further more HP, Dell and Lenovo are launching Clover Trail devices this month. If Windows 8 sales were so poor why didn't they just cancel these devices?

Already in production.....

 

[heatlesssun]

Wait what? Say that again.lol Windows Mobile/phone can trace it roots all the way back the eary 90's. Obviously you understand that this is more than 2 years, right?

Yes, but Windows Mobile 6.x development tools and applications are completely incompatible and different from Windows Phone 7/8.

 

[heatlesssun]

Already in production.....

But you can't buy one and have it soon yet. I think the Dell Latitude XPS 10 isn't available until the end of the month.

 

[jimh425]

pelo, you are wrong about a lot of what you write. Acer, for insrance was very vocal about some of the issues a long time before ship. In addition, the device given away at build had to be developed about two years ago to be distributed at Build about 1 1/2 years ago. Also, chip manufacturers other than intel were involved in producing ARM version of the core os about four years ago.

Still, I agree that the metro interface on a non touch screen makes no sense at least in current form. There are a lot of potential upgrades on the sidelines because of metro. We can hope that someone in authority at msft can see that, eventually.

 

[Snowdog]

I think the "blame the hardware" excuse is convenient, but doesn't hold much water.

I looked around and it looks like all the Win8/RT tablets have plenty of stock. So there are no good ARM/Atom/i3/i5 tablets? Wasn't this the market where MS really needed to make inroads? It looks like there was plenty of hardware and no real traction.

The excuse all seems to be based mainly on short supplies of two ultrabook convertibles from Dell/Lenovo. Really? A couple of $1200 ultrabooks in short supply is responsible for a massive sales drop in PC sales? That is nonsensical. At $1200 this was never going to be a volume player. We are likely talking 5 digit number sales if they had full stock. This is a red herring.

It looks a lot more like MS is hard selling Metro and very few people are interested.

 

[pelo]

pelo, you are wrong about a lot of what you write. Acer, for insrance was very vocal about some of the issues a long time before ship. In addition, the device given away at build had to be developed about two years ago to be distributed at Build about 1 1/2 years ago. Also, chip manufacturers other than intel were involved in producing ARM version of the core os about four years ago.

Et tu, Ballmer? Microsoft’s original equipment manufacturer partners are doing their very best renditions of Julius Caesar this week after Microsoft apparently blindsided them when it announced that it would be making its own tablet. Just one day after Microsoft unveiled its new Surface tablets, some OEMs started griping to Reuters about their surprise and frustration at being kept in the dark in the lead up to the Surface announcement.

“No senior executives heard about the news last week,” griped one anonymous Acer executive. “We’re quite surprised.” Another anonymous source, meanwhile, told Reuters that there was a “sense of betrayal” among some OEMs because Microsoft didn’t tell them that they were going to make their own tablet without OEM input.

As an indictment of the PC OEMs, Surface is damning. Microsoft isn't even waiting for the OEMs to try (and, quite possibly, fail) to build viable Windows 8 tablets before stepping in with its own system (as it did when it killed the PlaysForSure scheme and released the Zune media player). Instead, Redmond is preempting their failure and ensuring that Windows 8 will come to market with at least one good tablet.

To make matters even worse for the OEMs, it seems that they didn't get much of a warning that Surface was coming. According to Reuters, all they got was a vague phone call from Steven Sinofsky, president of the Windows division, a couple of days before the unveiling.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/19/us-microsoft-windows-tablets-asia-idUSBRE85I1NL20120619

(Reuters) - Microsoft Corp kept its personal computer partners largely in the dark about its plans to launch a competing tablet computer, with some long-time collaborators learning of the new gadget only days before its unveiling, according to people with knowledge of the matter.

The secrecy that shrouded the Surface tablet risks alienating Microsoft's hardware partners, and marks a departure from the software company's tradition of working closely with hardware companies to test and fine-tune every new product.

It also underscores how Microsoft is starting to take pages from Apple Inc's playbook, keeping its cards close to the vest as it works to reinvent its Windows franchise and jump into the hardware business.

The earliest that Microsoft's personal computing partners were told about the tablet was last Friday, just three days before it was shown to the media at an event in Los Angeles, according to sources in the U.S. and Taiwan technology industry who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Windows chief Steven Sinofsky made a round of telephone calls but gave only the barest details on Friday, neither revealing the name of the gadget nor its specifications, two people close to Microsoft's partners told Reuters.

As such, Microsoft's main partners remained "in wait-and-see" mode and had to monitor the news for details, one of the sources said.

Microsoft Chief Executive Steve Ballmer told reporters the company had informed its largest hardware-manufacturing partners about the tablet. A company spokesman declined to say how much of a heads up the partners were given, or to elaborate further.

Sources at Acer Inc and Asustek Computer Inc, the world's fourth and fifth largest PC makers respectively, said the first they had heard of the new tablets was at Ballmer's news conference on Monday.

"No senior executives heard about the news last week," said an Acer executive, who added they were still seeking details. "We're quite surprised."

and when the Surface RT sales figures came back poor, MS decided to expand their retail presence and dig that knife into their back even deeper. The promise of not stepping on their toes as far as retail and availability went down the crapper:

In a surprising parallel to Google's initial Nexus One sales effort, Microsoft too is going the online route. When announcing the Surface, Microsoft said that it would be sold direct, through its online store and its handful of bricks-and-mortar retail sites.

If Microsoft were Apple, with its 364 stores worldwide, including 246 in the US alone, this would be a serious and highly visible retail presence. But Microsoft isn't Apple; it currently has only 18 stores (with another couple opening soon), all of them in the US. The company said that it may also sell Surface internationally online, but didn't specify which specific markets.

The net result of this is that lots of people won't be able to buy Surface at all, and even within the US, many people won't be able to get their hands on the thing to try it out before they buy it.

If Microsoft wanted to seriously challenge the OEMs, that would be a big problem. For a new tablet that has such a strong emphasis on physical design, and with a new operating system that has to be used to be fully appreciated, getting these things in front of consumers so they can try them out for themselves is essential.

But if Surface is aimed at the OEMs—telling them "we can do this just as well as you can, if we have to"—and setting them a challenge—"your tablets have to be at least this good"—then the limited availability isn't necessarily such a big deal. As long as the OEMs heed the warning and raise their game, so that Redmond can be assured that bad hardware won't jeopardized Windows 8's success, Microsoft could safely keep Surface operating as a small-scale operation, playing the Nexus role without upsetting the PC market.

And if they don't?

Microsoft has no shortage of relationships with retailers, both large and small, thanks to its mice, keyboards, and, of course, games console. If it wants widespread retail availability, it's there for the taking. The only limits to Microsoft's reach will be the speed at which it can build the tablets, and the willingness of consumers to actually buy them.

The OEMs have been warned, and the ball is, for the time being, in their court. The only question is, will they listen?

And yet some of you are actually claiming that it's somehow the OEMs fault? Tell me, are the piss poor sales figures of the Surface RT also the OEMs fault? Are the mixed reviews of the OS also the OEMs fault? What about the bloated operating systems and inflated BoM, are those too the OEMs fault?

Dell isn't stupid. They're well aware they've got to exit this market, and HP is certainly looking back at webOS and wishing it hadn't decided to cut the cord early.

 

[heatlesssun]

I think the "blame the hardware" excuse is convenient, but doesn't hold much water.

I looked around and it looks like all the Win8/RT tablets have plenty of stock. So there are no good ARM/Atom/i3/i5 tablets? Wasn't this the market where MS really needed to make inroads? It looks like there was plenty of hardware and no real traction.

You made a point earlier talking about the significance of desktop applications so you must know understand the difference between Windows RT and Windows 8. And the availability of Windows RT tablets has actually been better than Windows 8 tablets since the launch of Windows 8. In the US there are still only two Windows 8 Clover Trail devices that one can by now and only one of those is readily available in retail stores I believe.

 

[heatlesssun]

and when the Surface RT sales figures came back poor, MS decided to expand their retail presence and dig that knife into their back even deeper. The promise of not stepping on their toes as far as retail and availability went down the crapper:

Huh? So when Microsoft decided that the sales of Windows RT was poor they should have done what then? Not try to sell more Windows RT devices?

 

[jimh425]

OEMS are responsible for what they produced or not, and msft is responsible for the software of Windows 8. Nobody forced the OEMS to embrace windows 8 which is why it appears a few are sitting on the sidelines for now wrt 8. I don't blame them.

 

[heatlesssun]

OEMS are responsible for what they produced or not, and msft is responsible for the software of Windows 8. Nobody forced the OEMS to embrace windows 8 which is why it appears a few are sitting on the sidelines for now wrt 8. I don't blame them.

Not exactly sure which OEMs are sitting on the sidelines with Windows 8. HP, Dell, Samsung, Lenovo, Acer and Asus all have multiple Windows 8 devices in market or on the way. Toshiba might be the most quiet but Toshiba has been having problems for a number of years now.

 

[jimh425]

The best use of windows 8 is for touch devices: either tablet, laptop, or all in ones and that includes arm. There aren't very many as a percentage. Its amazing to me how many laptops are windows 8 and not touch aware for instance. At launch, I noticed almost none of the laptops that were running windows 8 were touch aware.

 

[Snowdog]

You made a point earlier talking about the significance of desktop applications so you must know understand the difference between Windows RT and Windows 8. And the availability of Windows RT tablets has actually been better than Windows 8 tablets since the launch of Windows 8. In the US there are still only two Windows 8 Clover Trail devices that one can by now and only one of those is readily available in retail stores I believe.

Yes I understand the difference, which is why I mentioned all three processor classes (ARM/Atom/ivy).

Acer/Samsung Atom Win 8 tablets are fully stocked in the biggest retailers here with stock listed both online and in my local stores. Availability doesn't seem to be an issue here at all.

But the epic screwup of mixing Win8/RT tablets together is happening at all retailers, I expect there will be a lot of RT returns when some people figure out they don't in fact run Windows 8. But Microsoft is to blame for this Fiasco of poor naming/marketing as well.

Even if you could blame this flop on OEMs it would be strange that Microsoft in the OEM OS business for 30 years can't figure out how to work with OEMs while Google in it for about 4 years seems to have great relationships getting flagship Nexus products from several OEMs, several times/year.

 

[heatlesssun]

Acer/Samsung Atom Win 8 tablets are fully stocked in the biggest retailers here with stock listed both online and in my local stores. Availability doesn't seem to be an issue here at all.

This is does not in any way negate the point I was making. That's a total of 4 devices out of how many Windows 8 devices in retail.

But the epic screwup of mixing Win8/RT tablets together is happening at all retailers, I expect there will be a lot of RT returns when some people figure out they don't in fact run Windows 8. But Microsoft is to blame for this Fiasco of poor naming/marketing as well.

I don't necessarily disagree with this but with all of the Windows 8 opponents around here I've not yet seen any stories of massive returns of Surface RT or other Windows RT devices because of the lack of x86 compatibility. Indeed a number of Windows 8 opponents around here say that x86 is irrelevant in regards to tablets. I think you and pelo just exchanged comments on this subject.

Even if you could blame this flop on OEMs it would be strange that Microsoft in the OEM OS business for 30 years can't figure out how to work with OEMs while Google in it for about 4 years seems to have great relationships getting flagship Nexus products from several OEMs, several times/year.

Not really sure what the point is here. You start out saying that there's plenty of Windows 8/RT devices and then say this.

 

[Snowdog]

This is does not in any way negate the point I was making. That's a total of 4 devices out of how many Windows 8 devices in retail.

You said there was two Atoms and they weren't stocked. The two atoms I see are quite well stocked. That was just an example you mentioned, there were also Ivy tablets and RT tablets. There is no visible Windows tablet shortage to explain them not showing up in the game. How many models do they need? How many ipad Models does Apple have?

Not really sure what the point is here. You start out saying that there's plenty of Windows 8/RT devices and then say this.

I said "Even if" you could blame this on Hardware OEMs (Which you seem to want to do, but I think is a faulty argument, but even if), then ultimately it still seems to be Microsoft failure you to work well with it's OEMs. Where was Microsofts own x86 play?

 

[Tsumi]

You said there was two Atoms and they weren't stocked. The two atoms I see are quite well stocked. That was just an example you mentioned, there were also Ivy tablets and RT tablets. There is no visible Windows tablet shortage to explain them not showing up in the game. How many models do they need? How many ipad Models does Apple have?



I said "Even if" you could blame this on Hardware OEMs (Which you seem to want to do, but I think is a faulty argument, but even if), then ultimately it still seems to be Microsoft failure you to work well with it's OEMs. Where was Microsofts own x86 play?

There are sub $500 iPads, and when the iPads were first released, there was nothing else like it in the market. Microsoft needs $300 or less tablets to really start selling. Just look at the success Android is having with the introduction of $100 and $200 tablets.

 

[heatlesssun]

You said there was two Atoms and they weren't stocked. The two atoms I see are quite well stocked. That was just an example you mentioned, there were also Ivy tablets and RT tablets. There is no visible Windows tablet shortage to explain them not showing up in the game. How many models do they need? How many ipad Models does Apple have?

I would not have said that. I have the Samsung Ativ 500T which I bought on October 27th at a store. I know that this was in stock and available to buy and have talked about this thing from top to bottom extensively. Again my point is that there's not that many devices still to buy, not that there weren't any. We're talking about around 5 total devices out of hundreds of Windows devices on the market. That's not what I would call well stocked.

I said "Even if" you could blame this on Hardware OEMs (Which you seem to want to do, but I think is a faulty argument, but even if), then ultimately it still seems to be Microsoft failure you to work well with it's OEMs. Where was Microsofts own x86 play?

Again, 5 Windows 8 tablet models? Out of the hundreds of other devices on the market? I'm not blaming anyone so much as pointing out do you really think that 5 device models is a lot in a market the size of Windows? Not a soul here would say that 5 laptop models is a lot.

 

[heatlesssun]

Just look at the success Android is having with the introduction of $100 and $200 tablets.

A lot of devices are moving at that price, but at very thin margins. I do agree that Windows 8/RT need to get cheaper. Still, I paid less for my 500T than a big iPad with 64GB. They aren't cheap, but for they can do they aren't super expensive either.

 

[B00nie]

Android is not having a success at all if you look at the returns it's giving. It's been estimated that Google actually loses money on Android.

The top dog for return for investment is unquestionable. Apple.

 

[pxc]

More months of data are a better indicator than the doom and gloom of the thread's title.

That said, I'm probably skipping Win8 until Metro is fixed (apps are windowed, the Metro start shell is allowed to be disabled) or discarded. Metro is just far too annoying to use day to day on high resolution displays, especially on non-touch screen devices. I've tried. It has all the failings and new ones of poorly designed touch screen interfaces foisted on non-touch screen desktop and screen tablet users. Metro would be great for small touch screen displays, ones which wouldn't work with normal mouse or keyboard driven interfaces.

If Windows 9 continues on this failure of a path, I'm going to be one of those dinosaurs stuck on Win7 like many people are/were with XP, or may even switch to an alternative OS for regular non-gaming use (i.e. 95% of what I do).

 

[xxEIEIOxx]

...That said, I'm probably skipping Win8 until Metro is fixed (apps are windowed, the Metro start shell is allowed to be disabled) or discarded. Metro is just far too annoying to use day to day on high resolution displays, especially on non-touch screen devices...

Why not just use Start8 or Classic Shell or some other alternative?

 

[KENNYB]

I don't necessarily disagree with this but with all of the Windows 8 opponents around here I've not yet seen any stories of massive returns of Surface RT or other Windows RT devices because of the lack of x86 compatibility. Indeed a number of Windows 8 opponents around here say that x86 is irrelevant in regards to tablets. I think you and pelo just exchanged comments on this subject.

I've seen plenty of no-buys due to no x86 compatibility. I know what you're going to say: these people don't contribute to the return rate. Yeah, these people couldn't be convinced to walk out of the store with one to eventually return it.

 

[KENNYB]

http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-windows/windows-rt-and-8-sales-signs-point-major-flop-206847

I don't agree with the notion that x86 compatibility is not important. Sure, if you're just Facebooking and porning all day it is. But do something remotely productive and you hit a brickwall with the "apps". And the Surface is more like a laptop replacement than tablet. So it's kinda natural to expect it would run x86 (in opposite to expect it on the iPad). Let's to forget that no x86 means no Java too (WinRT is so crippled, the Java runtime won't be ported ever there) and that thing is actually used lots on internal school sites, online banking and so forth.. Not to forget the hit-game Minecraft.

"Windows RT" is the dumbest product name in history of industrialized products. Even something like "Microsoft Tiles" would be far better. What does RT mean? I guess it has something to do with WinRT, but who the hell knows that outside of Visual Studio addicts? For 99.9% of the population it is a completely meaningless moniker. Windows XP and Windows me also had these two-character names instead of a number and they were able to run all existing programs.

That has also been pointed out a million times in the last months, Sinofsky even said that they were going to make it absolutely clear that no one would confuse Win8 and RT.. and what's the result? Windows RT looks exactly like Windows 8, it even has a desktop.. but it can't run existing applications, and the only hint for that is "RT", which doesn't ring any bells for the customer. You could as well call it Windows Dumbo.

I bet that there were more than enough RT device buyers who were absolutely befuddled why they weren't able to run their existing Windows programs and gave the devices back.

Customer: "Why can't I run my existing applications?"

Salesperson :"You can't run these on Windows RT. Only the store apps"

C: "So why is it called Windows? And why is there a desktop then, that looks like Windows 7?"

S: "To run Office"

C: "But isn't Office a normal Windows application as well? I have it on my PC, and it looks exactly like the one on this device. If Office works on this, why can't I use my other programs as well?"

S: "You see, this thing has a so-called ARM processor, and Microsoft has decided that [...]"

C: "Ah, * this!"

Hahaha...This is funny because I've seen this happen. Down to the, "Why is this called Windows?". Have you gone to a Microsoft store? I feel sorry for the sales reps.

 

[Snowdog]

Again, 5 Windows 8 tablet models? Out of the hundreds of other devices on the market? I'm not blaming anyone so much as pointing out do you really think that 5 device models is a lot in a market the size of Windows? Not a soul here would say that 5 laptop models is a lot.

So you are claiming there are only 5 win 8 tablet models available in the USA? List them. I bet I can find more.

Can you tell me how many iPad models are available in the USA?

Next are you also claiming that somehow having many Win8 laptops/desktops means tablets won't sell? How does that work exactly?

Excuses, excuses, and strange excuses at that.

 

[Void]

bunch of stuff...

They were in much worse shape if you only looked back a bit further and that was before Windows 8 hit the shelves.

From the link you posted:

Bonner opines that other devices, such as tablets, are robbing Windows 8 of sales:

We think the reason may be a secular move by consumers to non-Windows based mobile devices such as the iPad. With Microsoft reporting December quarter earnings on January 24, the shares could also face near-term headline risk in the event of disappointing results. Flat revenue growth and a modest decline in EPS implied an unimpressive September quarter, reported on October 18. While we would normally expect a slowdown just prior to the release of a new operating system, this weakness continued even after the release of Windows 8 on October 26, suggesting that tablet computing is taking share from the Windows-oriented PC/laptop/ultrabook market. Microsoft is responding to the rise of tablets with Windows NT and its own Surface device, though sales of the Surface also look weak despite generally favorable reviews. The macroeconomy is also a negative factor, particularly in Europe.

As others have said, it's not just Windows 8 that's driving people away from desktops and laptops. The average consumer has no need for a full fledged desktop or laptop for what they do, check email and surf the web/FB. With the way the economy is and most tablets being bought for $200 or less, why would someone spend twice that to do the same thing?
If I was an average consumer I too would jump on the tablet bandwagon as they are more portable, smaller, much nicer form factor and cheaper.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[Flogger23m]

Why not just use Start8 or Classic Shell or some other alternative?

It doesn't remove it (with Classic Shell). Annoying Charm pop ups, the Metro button in the upper/lower right, and certian programs open in Metro by default. I fear that as more MS programs become "Metroized" Metro will essentially become forced. The same with other programs. Win 8 is also tied to an email, which is extremely annoying.

In my limited experience, I find Win 8 to be extremely annoying on a 14" laptop. I also fail to see how it will be nice on a desktop. I have a 24" screen and like to multi task with windows of various sizes.

On a tablet or phone I can see the Metro interface being useful. But not on a laptop or desktop. And that interface + the annoying "tie an account to your OS" is what kills an otherwise decent OS.

 

[Void]

Bunch more stuff...

Your right dude. Windows 8 is the evil and I now expect to see my desktop burst into flames and burn my fingers off for ever installing Windows 8 on it.

No worries though as life will go on for all of us and for MS. Windows 9 will come out and all will be one with nature again.

 

[heatlesssun]

So you are claiming there are only 5 win 8 tablet models available in the USA? List them. I bet I can find more.

Can you tell me how many iPad models are available in the USA?

Next are you also claiming that somehow having many Win8 laptops/desktops means tablets won't sell? How does that work exactly?

Excuses, excuses, and strange excuses at that.

I'm in the market for Windows 8 tablets and hybrids so I do keep an eye on things. There certainly weren't five Windows 8 tablets that you could lay your hands on at launch. I tried to order the Samsung Ativ Pro a couple of places at launch and could not along with a number of folks though that particular device did start to have stock a couple of weeks later.More devices are starting to roll out now.

Not really sure what the issue is here. I'm far from the only person that noted the lack of Windows 8 tablets to this point.

 

[TheArTcher]

Will there really be a Windows 9 or Windows 8x this summer? I can wait if they'll fix some of the most annoying issues. Although waiting hasn't exactly worked out lately. Win 8, AMD Bulldozer, Samsung 840, etc.