bigdogchris
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This is really sad, and honestly quite pathetic when you consider all of the additional hardware options now available for Windows 8.
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Windows 8 Adoption Rates Behind Vista Rates
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CrimsonKnight13
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Is this issue actually due to Windows 8 failing or the fact that PC sales aren't like they used to be for the average consumer? I understand that the Surface series hasn't exactly taken flight as well either.
dr.stevil
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Thats a good thing for those of us that really don't like the new UI. Heres to hoping they give users the option to turn it off in a service pack (or scrap the new UI all together)
Yes it could be a combination. But they fell something like 10% this holiday season after Windows 8 was released. This may be their biggest drop ever. It isn't just a coincidence. However it gets interpreted Win8 clearly didn't help. I wonder how long we will keep seeing positive spin on Windows 8 sales.
MS really fumbled this release badly by alienating a lot of PC enthusiasts that they really didn't need to. They could have eliminated the majority of complaints by simply leaving the desktop side completely alone and allowing the user to choose if/when they ever saw Metro.
CrimsonKnight13
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I do think that having a simple selection during setup could've defined how a person interacts with the Modern UI. It shows that MS simply doesn't give a shit.
It's even easier than that; the OS could have identified the hardware and automatically chosen the GUI environment for the user, with a CP option to change it if they so wished.
I want to reiterate that I really like the concept that MS was trying to pull off; integration of the mobile and desktop environments. Their implementation, however, fell flat on it's face and is where I take severe issue
Not surprised. I almost installed it the other day but decided against it after reading more about it and seeing some videos regarding the user interface. For some reason Microsoft likes making things more difficult over time. Vista and 7 add an extra layer of mouse clicks to some operations and from what I can see Windows 8 makes things even worse.
WTF?
WTF?
Skripka
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Yup.
My brother's fiance got a Win8 laptop off Amazon...my brother had it over trying to configure it. My brother having used every Windows from 3.1 to Vista as well as Win7. I have seldom heard more lines of "What the hell is this??" uttered during an initial system config than that night.
A new MS OS usually brings a surge of new pc/software sales regardless of the economy unless we are in a full blown recession. This is not good news for the MS fan boys and MS themselves stating that Win8 was a huge success at launch, claiming with (bogus) sales numbers it sold more licenses than Win7 at launch. Notice how they never did clarify those numbers when asked. Win8 is not a desktop users OS unless they bring back boot to desktop and some sort of start button/menu. The only saving grace is some of the under hood changes that a lot techies like, but alas that's not enough of a reason to upgrade.
Yup.
My brother's fiance got a Win8 laptop off Amazon...my brother had it over trying to configure it. My brother having used every Windows from 3.1 to Vista as well as Win7. I have seldom heard more lines of "What the hell is this??" uttered during an initial system config than that night.
Yeah.. once you figure it out it's easy.
Monkey God
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I am looking forward to the Surface pro. Until then, Win8 can DIAF. Even then, I will only tolerate it because I have to. Would rather they improved Win7's touch capabilities.
Not necessarily bogus, but it all depends how the numbers are measured. MS could be claiming licenses to OEMs, who need them to build Win 8 systems. But the issue is how well those Win 8 systems are selling, and therefore what are the inventories in the "pipeline."
My wife and I were in the local MS store looking at Surface tablets, so she also tried out non-MS tablets running "real" Win 8. The detachable, solid keyboard on the Samsung and ASUS models was very attractive, but without the START button, it was a non-starter. Too bad, becuase one of those tablets-with-keyboards could replace a heavier laptop (for some things.)
We ended up buying an iPad Retina.
CrimsonKnight13
Lord Stabington of [H]ard|Fortress
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I would've loved that functionality. I do like the Start Screen but the Modern UI apps are rather lackluster. My wife only likes the desktop side, so she prefers old school but doesn't hate 8. My mom, on the other hand, loves everything about 8 on her new laptop. I guess everyone has a different take on it. Enthusiasts especially feel slighted by the whole endeavor.
heatlesssun
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One thing that does look to be holding Windows 8 back is the tight supply of tablets and touch screen devices: http://www.neowin.net/news/some-windows-8-based-pcs-still-experiencing-long-ship-times
So how come 8 is a miserable failure on the traditional desktop? all 8 zealots keep saying how great it is.
So how come 8 is a miserable failure on the traditional desktop? all 8 zealots keep saying how great it is.
Most people seriously searching for a tablet will probably be looking at an ipad first, tight supply for Win8 tabs or not...fans can come up with all sorts of excuses. Myself if I were looking for a tablet (I'm not) would definitely check out Win8 but would lean towards an ipad if all things being equal.
CrimsonKnight13
Lord Stabington of [H]ard|Fortress
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You rationalizing is getting pretty weak. A couple of $1200 Dell/Lenovos is holding back Windows 8?
At best those are niche items,not market drivers.
heatlesssun
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It's not just the high end devices but the lower end as well, particularly the Clover Trail devices which will probably be the bulk of Windows 8 tablet/hybrid sales. The Clover Trails are more expensive than any other tablets out there except high end iPads but they are much cheaper than Core tablets and hybrids. HP, Dell and Lenovo's Clover Trail devices are still not readily available and won't be until later this month. I'm not saying that these devices will completely change the landscape but their absence over two months since Windows 8 launched isn't helping either.
heatlesssun
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So how come 8 is a miserable failure on the traditional desktop? all 8 zealots keep saying how great it is.
There's really no point in relitigating this issue. Obviously you've formed you opinions of Windows 8's desktop worthiness and I have mine over the last 15 months. If one doesn't like Windows 8 or if it doesn't meet one's needs or doesn't work for them then so be it, I never said that Windows 8 would do that nor is it without it's problems. I were having as many issues as you and other have reported with Windows 8 I certainly wouldn't be using it.
If only MS would actually listen to desktop users...most want the choice to be able to boot to desktop and or get the start button back. What would be so bad about that? The fans get to boot to the new Metro interface and the old school guys get the under the hood improvements and old desktop. The problem I have is the fan boys that say deal with Metro or GTFO and use Windows 7...why would that bother you so much?
dr.stevil
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The problem with that is Metro would of become the next Zune (or anything else interesting MS came up with and then shitcanned because they half-assed it).
I'm guessing that MS sort of had to (or felt they had to) do this to get their tablet interface in the hands of customers so they'd feel at home in the event they decided on a Windows 8 tablet. The problem is, much like WP, not many people seem to be interested in a Windows tablet... So it really seems like they shot themselves in the foot this time.
I could be wrong, but from the outside looking in, this is what it appears.
Ur_Mom
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So how come 8 is a miserable failure on the traditional desktop? all 8 zealots keep saying how great it is.
Windows 8 is great... GR8?
But, it's definitely not perfect. It has a learning curve that some can't handle. It has some things that are just very quirky and not as easy to use on a desktop as they would on a tablet.
Failure on the desktop? Not really. Just radically different, difficult to use and not complete (not my opinion, just the thousands of users that I see on various forums). I can't say it's a step up from Windows 7 (it's not), but it's not a failure either.
Tsumi
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1. People don't upgrade OS's. That's a very small minority, and does not make up the bulk of sales. The bulk of Windows sales are through OEM computers.
2. XP was long overdue for an overhaul, and Vista was a major overhaul. 8 on the other hand is more similar to a service pack, and 7 is only ~4 years old and does not feel old at all.
3. Windows device sales marketshare has dropped to 58% from the ~90% they enjoyed all the way up until the release of Windows 7. That's because of:
4. People would rather get a new smartphone or tablet than replace their 3-5 year old "fast enough" computer. Whereas during XP and Vista, people were upgrading for tangible speed increases every 1-2 years.
5. If Microsoft wants more device marketshare, they need to penetrate into the mobile space. The fact that they're late to the game, lack of availability and choice of mobile (tablet and convertibles) devices, and that there are no devices in the $200-300 range does not help in the least bit.
2. XP was long overdue for an overhaul, and Vista was a major overhaul. 8 on the other hand is more similar to a service pack, and 7 is only ~4 years old and does not feel old at all.
3. Windows device sales marketshare has dropped to 58% from the ~90% they enjoyed all the way up until the release of Windows 7. That's because of:
4. People would rather get a new smartphone or tablet than replace their 3-5 year old "fast enough" computer. Whereas during XP and Vista, people were upgrading for tangible speed increases every 1-2 years.
5. If Microsoft wants more device marketshare, they need to penetrate into the mobile space. The fact that they're late to the game, lack of availability and choice of mobile (tablet and convertibles) devices, and that there are no devices in the $200-300 range does not help in the least bit.
Ur_Mom
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I doubt they will back track and say they messed up and give users the choice. It's about getting the market in your face. I don't see why a desktop version couldn't be made (still having the new UI there, just not as in your face).
The #1 complaint (by a huge margin) is the new UI and lack of Start button. That's obviously a problem. IT folks are concerned, and are reluctant to push Windows 8 to the users for fear of mass confusion. Home users are confused. The home users that could barely use Windows 7 are returning their Win8 PC's to the stores. They aren't switching to Linux or OSX as some claim or are threatening. They are just staying with their older PC's or going with Windows 7 on a new PC.
Tsumi
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IT folks in businesses aren't concerned about Windows 8, they're more concerned about rolling out Windows 7 and making sure everything works.
If they are looking at Windows 8, they're probably only looking at Windows 8 tablets and how it might be able to supplement their operations. They won't even think of upgrading Windows 7 desktops to Windows 8 regardless of what Windows 8 turns out to be.
If they are looking at Windows 8, they're probably only looking at Windows 8 tablets and how it might be able to supplement their operations. They won't even think of upgrading Windows 7 desktops to Windows 8 regardless of what Windows 8 turns out to be.
Really? A service pack? Win 8 is heralded as the biggest change in Windows since win95.
I never bothered looking at Vista betas, but Win8 was such a huge change I did download one of the public betas to see what all the fuss was about (before dismissing it as FUBAR).
All we see from fans are rationalizing and finger pointing.
The reality is that this is as some of us expected, another Vista like disappointment.
We now have numbers showing similar to Vista and not only have sales not popped despite the hype, despite the new form factors, and despite MS Billion dollar plus ad campaign, they actually sank significantly.
Despite all of those things which should have led to a pop(if there was any substance), sales are reportedly tanking, down 10% -20%.
If you spend a billion dollars or more hyping your shiny new product and actually sells worse than your old product, you screwed up royally. This is a bigger screwup than Vista.
Tsumi
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Yes, it really is a service pack because it shares most of the same code base as Windows 7 and Vista for that matter, shares the same DX versions, shares the same drivers (for the most part), etc.
If you need further proof, just look at the NT version numbers. XP was NT 5.1, Vista was 6.0, 7 was 6.1, and 8 is 6.2. Theoretically, they could have forced Metro on every Windows 7 user as Service Pack 2, and you should be glad they decided not to go that route.
Also, thanks for ignoring the rest of my points. All of those are very true and are factors in Windows 8's "failure" as you call it. It is not the UI alone that is at fault.
It has a lot more new code vs 7, than 7 did vs Vista. If anything was more service pack than OS, it was 7, and 7 was one their greatest successes on the OS front.
You are pretty much alone in your opinion on this one. Just about everyone considers this one of the biggest windows shits (if not the biggest) ever.
Eman D. Rahym
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In a way, Microsoft's advertising campaign is part of the problem. Windows 8 works perfectly well on systems with nothing but a keyboard and a mouse. Let me say that again: perfectly well. However, every single ad I've seen for Windows 8 emphasizes touch, touch, touch. Now that would be fine if the third party OEMs, the ones actually supplying the hardware had their act together and actually had touch hardware to sell. Instead they all underestimated the demand for touch hardware so it's currently either hard to find or expensive or has long wait times if ordered. Meanwhile the non-touch hardware sits on shelves because who wants that now that you can have touch?
So Windows 8 is slow out of the gate. I guess you can say it's ahead of its time. Soon enough though the industry will begin catching up again and then adoption rates should climb. The PC industry is big. It can't turn on a dime. The PC industry is like a giant oil tanker. It simply cannot turn as fast as the little sailboats bobbing around it. But once it does get turned, it will move forward with an energy and power the little boats can't match.
So Windows 8 is slow out of the gate. I guess you can say it's ahead of its time. Soon enough though the industry will begin catching up again and then adoption rates should climb. The PC industry is big. It can't turn on a dime. The PC industry is like a giant oil tanker. It simply cannot turn as fast as the little sailboats bobbing around it. But once it does get turned, it will move forward with an energy and power the little boats can't match.
That's...well, that's unbridled optimism. I can only salute you for that.
However, the truth of the matter is that touch is no where near as capable and easy to use as keyboard and mouse. Touch is a "best of bad options" type of thing. Tablets and phones...ya, no one wants to lug around a keyboard/mouse, so touch is the best compromise there. But for home, desktop use? Touch is a gimmick.
Tsumi
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So what? Who cares if it has a lot more code? Maybe a few thousand lines more changes out of millions! Fact is, it's a lot closer to a minor revision than it is to a major overhaul. That's beside the point I was making though, the point was Vista was a MAJOR overhaul from XP, while 8 is a MINOR revision from 7.
Also, I am clearly not alone, as threads like this and other threads on other sites have demonstrated time and time again. It's pretty split, and there's no way to get an accurate measurement from forum opinions. And even if there was, computer enthusiast forum sentiments =/= public sentiments.
As for 7 vs Vista, Vista was not properly patched until AFTER 7 was released. The stigma that Vista had made most people wait for 7 anyways, which, coincidentally (or not), was about the same time mainstream support for XP ended. Corporate and business represent a significant portion of computers in use, and if you don't think so well you're sorely misinformed. Businesses waited until the end of XP mainstream support to upgrade, and why would they bother upgrading to Vista when 7 is already out?
You aren't making much sense. Who cares if it has more code? How exactly are you defining it if not by code.
If you go by the externals (what really matters to the vast majority of end users), the addition of the Metro UI, and change to the Metro start screen are likely the largest changes in Windows History.
Link some reference to serious publications calling it a service pack. Most agree it is one of the biggest changes in Windows history.
For good or ill, Windows 8 is a massive change in the Windows OS. Calling it a service pack is asinine and contrary, and in everything I have read on on this, you are unique in this opinion.
thedocta45
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Windows 8 does feel like a skinned version of 7 with no start menu and metro added in.
I am currently using 8 on my daily laptop, its not that bad, I wouldn't install it if I had a working 7 computer, but if I was still on XP or possibly Vista it would be a great upgrade.
Vista really was not that bad either, I don't see why everyone always complains about it, I used it with little issue save no drivers for my wireless pci card.
Tsumi
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No, I'm not alone in opinion, and it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of FACT. FACT is, most of the code base is the same as Vista and 7. FACT is, they could have easily pushed Metro onto Windows 7 and Vista by a service pack. FACT is, performance is virtually identical to Windows 7 and Vista. FACT is, a UI change is not what determines whether something is a service pack or not, it's the changes in code that do. FACT is, people are not going to upgrade to something that provides no tangible performance increases and a UI that they may or may not like.
What Windows 8 represents is a SHIFT in UI focus towards mobile. It is not a drastic change in code base from Vista or 7, and thus has very little under the hood incentives for people to upgrade, while Vista had plenty of under the hood incentives for people to upgrade.
heatlesssun
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I can understand why people might think this particularly if they've only used Windows 7 or 8 on keyboard and mouse driven devices. On a desktop/laptop Windows 7 isn't that different from 8 if you can adjust. On a tablet device the difference is night and day.
heatlesssun
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All Windows versions start off from the code base of the latest last version. But there are some pretty major kernel differences in Windows 7 and 8 and there is an updated driver model as well though 8 is backwards compatible for the most part with Windows 7 drivers. The changes between 7 and 8 are well out of bounds of traditional service pack.
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