Windows 10 October Update is Losing User Data

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by AlphaAtlas, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Because Windows was well loved up to Windows 10? As much as some think this stuff is new, hatred of Microsoft and Windows is LONGSTANDING.
     
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  2. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I had a custom Windows 3.1 splash screen that had the common misspellings and bullet holes...
     
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  3. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Windows is an operating system for the bulk of the computer illiterate, none of them are backing up and forcing buggy updates using an outdated and buggy updating solution is a massively flawed process no matter how you want to twist the reality of the situation.

    People claim updates add features to Windows? They also remove numerous features making Windows 10 Professional more like Windows 10 Home.
     
  4. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yes, it is. With good reason.
     
  5. lostin3d

    lostin3d [H]ard|Gawd

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    Too true. Back in my P4, XP days it took a couple of incidents where some boot sectors/partitions got corrupted and lost everything back then. Eventually got in the habit of backing up regularly. Years later I found out that was an occasional problem for some XP users(pre service pack 2/3). Still remember looking thru hex addresses attempting to recover what I could. Total PIA. These days it's almost mind boggling how many options are fast and available as solutions.
     
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  6. lostin3d

    lostin3d [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well I've yet to see this in action on over a dozen machines in testing. The only thing I've consistently seen is that it's now adding just enough latency to our ancient network to give a false positive that we're not connected to our network drives. Click on any one and they're there but the notification does come up after logging out or restart.
     
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  7. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    You missed the point entirely.
     
  8. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Fair enough. There are plenty of reasons not to like Windows, it has its problems. And most people use it on PCs because that's what their device came with and they gave it no thought. I personally chose to use Windows 10 on my PCs because it's what we use at work and it best supports all the things I do and I've researched the subject thoroughly. If there were a better option I'd be using it.
     
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  9. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Windows 10 1809 is more capable across the hardware I use than Windows 10 1507. That's kind of driver in all of this. The more new hardware one uses generally the more you're tied to using the latest version of Windows 10.
     
  10. lostin3d

    lostin3d [H]ard|Gawd

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    So true. For every fan of either Mac or Linux I've met if I present the large checklist of everything I need and sooner or later neither of those two can fully support all. Sure they each have some great specialties, and Linux is making strides but Windows continues to at least have all the cards in the deck even if it's not always the best hand.
     
  11. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Exactly. :)
    Of course 7 is getting minimal, MS wants it that way so people go to 10. Not because people want to.
     
  12. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    350.jpg

    wow windows 10 you're so awesome.
     
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  13. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Windows 7 was already six years old and in its extended support phase that had been announced years before Windows 10 came out. Microsoft was never going to go back and retrofit new features in Windows 7 anymore than it did with Windows XP after it aged out of mainstream support.

    In order to make everyone happy Microsoft would pretty much have to add everything to Windows 7 that's in 10 and there's no point to that now.
     
  14. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Some people have specific needs and wants. Windows has by far the best PC software and hardware ecosystem because of it's market share. That's the defining feature to me and what makes it's useful. Virtually all that I do from a PC client perspective has top tier support under Windows. If that were Linux then I'd use that. Sometime Windows haters way overcomplicate things and just ignore practical matters.

    Sure, deleting files, blowing up and bricking systems during upgrades is completely unacceptable. There no fucking way I'd ever put up with that with the money I have tied up in PC hardware and software. Like I'm just going to be a Microsoft shill while Windows 10 bricks something as expensive as my sig rig, which I just plunked another $2500 on for two 2080 Tis. Some people around here aren't even trying to be rational.
     
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  15. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Always happy to find alternatives. So how well does Linux work with two 2080 Tis these days?
     
  16. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I bet quite a few really wish Linux would finally step up and be able to play all the games.
     
  17. TordanGow

    TordanGow [H]ard|Gawd

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    Like hell it doesn't.

    Can you tell me how having backups doesn't address the loss of data. That's literally the whole point of backups, to prevent data loss. Deletion. Fire. A flood. Power Surge. Equipment failure. Yes, even a malfunctioning OS. All can be a catalyst for data loss.

    I have my important (think irreplaceable family pictures/videos, documents, etc.) data backed up the following ways:
    • Second Hard Drive on PC (encrypted files)
    • Local NAS on network with ZFS Z-2. (encrypted before transfer of files)
    • Remote hard drive at Brother's house (encrypted before transfer of files)
    • Data-Store specific VM in a data center (encrypted before transfer of files)

    Can you please tell me how my strategy that "Doesnt address the issue" would have resulted in me losing data to this bug?
     
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  18. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Because enthusiasts are very low in amount compared to just regular users. I would bet most regular users do not know about backups or even the knowledge to do so.
     
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  19. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    I completely agree. An interesting thing here though is that Windows 10 actually provides a solid and simple data backup tool in File History which I use but very little is said about it. And then of course there's OneDrive but I get the concerns over cloud though it is a very nice way to backup data.

    If Windows 10 OS updates were the only way to lose data I'd be all about killing Microsoft over a handful of reports of data loss that no one seems to know what happened as of yet. But there are many ways for data loss to occur. So an OS upgrade causes data loss, fine, kill Microsoft over it. A drive fails. Well it's old, or it was a crap drive or power surge, or whatever. I do think there'd be a lot less user sympathy of data loss due to drive failure.
     
  20. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Some old people can be taught, but some holy crap. Maybe they need to start selling a system with a backup drive and it does it automatically for the persons user folders.
     
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  21. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    prob why they suggest external hdds as add-ons at stores and online...
     
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  22. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    I know there's a lot of distrust over cloud storage in a place like this, but holy crap is it simple and convenient these days. OneDrive with a Windows 10 PC and an Android phone is near seamless these days. Going to new devices and keeping files is automagic. Again, I get the concern over cloud storage but there's no denying the simplicity, power and convenience.
     
  23. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If it was super simple, that would be another good alternative.
     
  24. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Microsoft is developing windows allright, in the direction of eroding user control, and simply ignoring most of QA. You're willfully blind if you don't see the switch from incremental updates, to disguised full reinstalls as part of that. By assuming that we're arguing against development itself and not the lowering of QA standards, and the erosion of user oversight of ones own computer, you are deliberately strawmanning us. That to me seems as clear clear bias, and a will to use dishonesty to try and somehow misrepresent our stance.
    All I see is plenty of potentially damaging stuff, and some less annoying stuff.

    So apply the same standard to theft: If you don't have full insurance coverage, the loss of valuables is entirely the fault of the owner? Yes it's stupid to keep gold bars under your pillow, but that doesn't mean we let the thief off the hook because the user didn't take enough precautions for such an occasion.

    Not to mention the appalling hypocrisy of this: For years the argument for metro and other UI fuckups were: They're trying to make windows more friendly to less tech-savvy people. And when this happens? Well user error, why weren't you more tech savvy and made backups?! You can't have it both ways.
     
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  25. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Again with the dishonesty. You know damn well that most bugs are only experienced by a fraction of the user base and require specific circumstances to occur. So no it doesn't matter how many users are experiencing this, because this is a serious fuckup, not "business as usual" as you try to present it.

    The only way windows can loose user files like this if it does something in an uncontrolled manner. This is fucking 101 of making a program that deletes stuff. You don't delete a directory as *.*, you have a list of files to be deleted and you only go trough those. Hell with windows I'd even have crc checks in place to make absolutely sure that I'm deleting the right files. Every damn uninstall system from installshield to nullsoft, will leave the program directory intact if it finds files there that don't belong to the installation. So I'm unreasonable that I'd hold MS to the same standards when doing an OS upgrade on billions of users computers? LOL. The first thing we learn working in IT is that the client's data is more important than your life, don't loose the client's data!
     
  26. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Better than a Windows machine with two 2080Ti's and no user profile I bet. ;)

    The good thing about Linux is that we have a decent updating process that can make use of a file system that's vastly better than NTFS and a kernel that doesn't require shifting important data around in order to be updated.
     
  27. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Oh, we absolutely should keep backups, but at the same time we shouldn't let this slide. That's why I'm calling out the shills trying to claim this is a simple bug none could've foreseen.
     
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  28. mufcfan

    mufcfan Limp Gawd

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    Your statement is dishonest as it is based on half truths and only on one person's account. If this was a programming error than a hell of a lot of people would have experienced it already.
    More people lose data every day to things much less malicious than Win10. But bashing anything MS or Win10 is so much sexier. No need for evidence, credibility or even the knowledge of facts. It's much less 'fun' (or true) that way.

    7 pages of posts about a bug that no one has even confirmed. Totally worth it, instead of doing something useful. Talk about hyperboles and blowing things out of proportion.
    This used to be a forum more about science than fiction.
     
  29. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    We know, Win 10 is great for that fraction of a percent of users. Much success!
     
  30. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    None of it makes Windows 10 not shit.
     
  31. c3k

    c3k 2[H]4U

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    Picking your reply at random.

    First, I agree: a working backup would prevent all data loss...from any time prior to that backup.

    Here's where the Win10 updater screws folks over:

    1. It will update without warning. If your backup schedule is monthly, and the Win10 update occurs on day 29, you've lost 29 days of data. Now, sure, you should perform more frequent backups, etc., but my point is how this update system can mess up folks.

    2. The user has to KNOW that data has been lost and then recover it. If Win10 wipes out some folders, it's not like it says, "Hey, user! Ima gonna delete the "Family Vacation Photos" folder. Yousa wanna keep it?" No, it just says, "Update Complete." The user swirls his latte and gets back on the [H] forum, never thinking to do a forensic examination of his data before and after the update.

    In short, an experienced user will have no issues. Most users will have no issues. But, Win10 is marketed to everyone; someone has lost data due to the update process. That is an OS coding problem.
     
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  32. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    I have repaired PCs where the Windows 10 updater has totally deleted the entire user profile on many occations. This is not a new issue.
     
  33. Azrak

    Azrak Gawd

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    Indeed. And where does Windows 10 give the user the chance to perform a "last backup" before the automatic upgrade process starts installing 1809?
     
  34. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Oh, sry for assuming that the report is truthful and accurate. What is dishonest about that? If you don't even believe the report, what the hell do you want to discuss even?

    Should we add "assuming the report is accurate" to the beginning of every sentence to make you feel better? Of course we assume it is accurate, we have no reason to doubt the credibility of the account. While your reason for not believing the account: You don't want it to be true, how is that more honest?

    Did you read the post you're replying to? I've explained it there why this shouldn't happen if MS did their due diligence.
     
  35. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Because the issue is the thread title.
     
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  36. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yet, I have yet to have anyone show me proof that their data has been lost. Also, are we too now assume that Seagate and Western Digital are all responsible for the users data loss when their hard drives fail? Or Samsung and Sandisk when their SSD's fail? Also, no one has as yet told me whether their drives have that extra 200GB of free space or not.

    As a technician, I need to see proof and logic, not emotional hysterics.
     
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  37. dangerouseddy

    dangerouseddy Gawd

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    it happened to me before but that was an insider build, id assumed they fixed that problem by now. not sure they do much qc testing in their labs anymore. didn't they fire most of their testers?
     
  38. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    Wow!
     
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  39. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    MS pulled the update. It's already been proven.

    And harddisks failing have zero to do with MS forcing untested updates down users throats. If harddisk manufacturers were pushing out forced firmware updates that were causing data loss you better believe there'd be hell to pay.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  40. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Well, at least take the time to actually repsond to what I said with being combative. Please, even the possibilities of this would mean pulling it makes sense, but hey, throwing rocks is easier, I guess.