Windows 10 October Update is Losing User Data

Mazzspeed said:
Microsoft's intention is to make Windows a service to prop up their cloud based division and they don't care if you don't like it.
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Because Windows was well loved up to Windows 10? As much as some think this stuff is new, hatred of Microsoft and Windows is LONGSTANDING.
 
heatlesssun said:
And no one is saying that it is acceptable. But backing up has ALWAYS been advised when doing major software and hardware upgrades long before anyone heard of Windows 10. This is not an either/or situation. No, this shouldn't happen with Windows 10 updates, though no one seems even know the extent or reason why these cases even happened. And yes, backup important data. You're far more likely to lose it for reasons other than an OS upgrade.
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Windows is an operating system for the bulk of the computer illiterate, none of them are backing up and forcing buggy updates using an outdated and buggy updating solution is a massively flawed process no matter how you want to twist the reality of the situation.

People claim updates add features to Windows? They also remove numerous features making Windows 10 Professional more like Windows 10 Home.
 
heatlesssun said:
And no one is saying that it is acceptable. But backing up has ALWAYS been advised when doing major software and hardware upgrades long before anyone heard of Windows 10. This is not an either/or situation. No, this shouldn't happen with Windows 10 updates, though no one seems even know the extent or reason why these cases even happened. And yes, backup important data. You're far more likely to lose it for reasons other than an OS upgrade.
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Too true. Back in my P4, XP days it took a couple of incidents where some boot sectors/partitions got corrupted and lost everything back then. Eventually got in the habit of backing up regularly. Years later I found out that was an occasional problem for some XP users(pre service pack 2/3). Still remember looking thru hex addresses attempting to recover what I could. Total PIA. These days it's almost mind boggling how many options are fast and available as solutions.
 
Well I've yet to see this in action on over a dozen machines in testing. The only thing I've consistently seen is that it's now adding just enough latency to our ancient network to give a false positive that we're not connected to our network drives. Click on any one and they're there but the notification does come up after logging out or restart.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
I have upgraded at least three systems from Windows 7 to Windows 10 (multiple versions), including 8 and 8.1, and I hadn't used a disk or USB stick for any of them. I'm not saying that it's best practice, but it most certainly can be done on a variety of desktop and mobile hardware.
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You missed the point entirely.
 
Mazzspeed said:
Yes, it is. With good reason.
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Fair enough. There are plenty of reasons not to like Windows, it has its problems. And most people use it on PCs because that's what their device came with and they gave it no thought. I personally chose to use Windows 10 on my PCs because it's what we use at work and it best supports all the things I do and I've researched the subject thoroughly. If there were a better option I'd be using it.
 
Mazzspeed said:
People claim updates add features to Windows? They also remove numerous features making Windows 10 Professional more like Windows 10 Home.
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Windows 10 1809 is more capable across the hardware I use than Windows 10 1507. That's kind of driver in all of this. The more new hardware one uses generally the more you're tied to using the latest version of Windows 10.
 
heatlesssun said:
Fair enough. There are plenty of reasons not to like Windows, it has its problems. And most people use it on PCs because that's what their device came with and they gave it no thought. I personally chose to use Windows 10 on my PCs because it's what we use at work and it best supports all the things I do and I've researched the subject thoroughly. If there were a better option I'd be using it.
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So true. For every fan of either Mac or Linux I've met if I present the large checklist of everything I need and sooner or later neither of those two can fully support all. Sure they each have some great specialties, and Linux is making strides but Windows continues to at least have all the cards in the deck even if it's not always the best hand.
 
heatlesssun said:
It's not that simple. Windows 7 isn't a better OS than 10 for 2 in 1 devices, high-DPI monitor setups and no one is going to run a pair of RTX 2080 Tis using Windows 7. Sure, Windows 10 gets a lot of potentially disruptive updates and there are problems with that process. Windows 7 at this point just gets minimal security and major bug fixes so there aren't any disruptive changes there.
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Exactly. :)
Of course 7 is getting minimal, MS wants it that way so people go to 10. Not because people want to.
 
350.jpg


wow windows 10 you're so awesome.
 
Hagrid said:
Exactly. :)
Of course 7 is getting minimal, MS wants it that way so people go to 10. Not because people want to.
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Windows 7 was already six years old and in its extended support phase that had been announced years before Windows 10 came out. Microsoft was never going to go back and retrofit new features in Windows 7 anymore than it did with Windows XP after it aged out of mainstream support.

In order to make everyone happy Microsoft would pretty much have to add everything to Windows 7 that's in 10 and there's no point to that now.
 
lostin3d said:
So true. For every fan of either Mac or Linux I've met if I present the large checklist of everything I need and sooner or later neither of those two can fully support all. Sure they each have some great specialties, and Linux is making strides but Windows continues to at least have all the cards in the deck even if it's not always the best hand.
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Some people have specific needs and wants. Windows has by far the best PC software and hardware ecosystem because of it's market share. That's the defining feature to me and what makes it's useful. Virtually all that I do from a PC client perspective has top tier support under Windows. If that were Linux then I'd use that. Sometime Windows haters way overcomplicate things and just ignore practical matters.

Sure, deleting files, blowing up and bricking systems during upgrades is completely unacceptable. There no fucking way I'd ever put up with that with the money I have tied up in PC hardware and software. Like I'm just going to be a Microsoft shill while Windows 10 bricks something as expensive as my sig rig, which I just plunked another $2500 on for two 2080 Tis. Some people around here aren't even trying to be rational.
 
Nenu said:
Doesnt address the issue.
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Like hell it doesn't.

Can you tell me how having backups doesn't address the loss of data. That's literally the whole point of backups, to prevent data loss. Deletion. Fire. A flood. Power Surge. Equipment failure. Yes, even a malfunctioning OS. All can be a catalyst for data loss.

I have my important (think irreplaceable family pictures/videos, documents, etc.) data backed up the following ways:
  • Second Hard Drive on PC (encrypted files)
  • Local NAS on network with ZFS Z-2. (encrypted before transfer of files)
  • Remote hard drive at Brother's house (encrypted before transfer of files)
  • Data-Store specific VM in a data center (encrypted before transfer of files)

Can you please tell me how my strategy that "Doesnt address the issue" would have resulted in me losing data to this bug?
 
TordanGow said:
Like hell it doesn't.

Can you tell me how having backups doesn't address the loss of data. That's literally the whole point of backups, to prevent data loss. Deletion. Fire. A flood. Power Surge. Equipment failure. Yes, even a malfunctioning OS. All can be a catalyst for data loss.

I have my important (think irreplaceable family pictures/videos, documents, etc.) data backed up the following ways:
  • Second Hard Drive on PC (encrypted files)
  • Local NAS on network with ZFS Z-2. (encrypted before transfer of files)
  • Remote hard drive at Brother's house (encrypted before transfer of files)
  • Data-Store specific VM in a data center (encrypted before transfer of files)

Can you please tell me how my strategy that "Doesnt address the issue" would have resulted in me losing data to this bug?
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Because enthusiasts are very low in amount compared to just regular users. I would bet most regular users do not know about backups or even the knowledge to do so.
 
Hagrid said:
Because enthusiasts are very low in amount compared to just regular users. I would bet most regular users do not know about backups or even the knowledge to do so.
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I completely agree. An interesting thing here though is that Windows 10 actually provides a solid and simple data backup tool in File History which I use but very little is said about it. And then of course there's OneDrive but I get the concerns over cloud though it is a very nice way to backup data.

If Windows 10 OS updates were the only way to lose data I'd be all about killing Microsoft over a handful of reports of data loss that no one seems to know what happened as of yet. But there are many ways for data loss to occur. So an OS upgrade causes data loss, fine, kill Microsoft over it. A drive fails. Well it's old, or it was a crap drive or power surge, or whatever. I do think there'd be a lot less user sympathy of data loss due to drive failure.
 
heatlesssun said:
I completely agree. An interesting thing here though is that Windows 10 actually provides a solid and simple data backup tool in File History which I use but very little is said about it. And then of course there's OneDrive but I get the concerns over cloud though it is a very nice way to backup data.

If Windows 10 OS updates were the only way to lose data I'd be all about killing Microsoft over a handful of reports of data loss that no one seems to know what happened as of yet. But there are many ways for data loss to occur. So an OS upgrade causes data loss, fine, kill Microsoft over it. A drive fails. We'll it's old, or it was a crap drive or power surge, or whatever. I do think there'd be a lot less user sympathy of data loss due to drive failure.
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Some old people can be taught, but some holy crap. Maybe they need to start selling a system with a backup drive and it does it automatically for the persons user folders.
 
Hagrid said:
Some old people can be taught, but some holy crap. Maybe they need to start selling a system with a backup drive and it does it automatically for the persons user folders.
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prob why they suggest external hdds as add-ons at stores and online...
 
Hagrid said:
Some old people can be taught, but some holy crap. Maybe they need to start selling a system with a backup drive and it does it automatically for the persons user folders.
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I know there's a lot of distrust over cloud storage in a place like this, but holy crap is it simple and convenient these days. OneDrive with a Windows 10 PC and an Android phone is near seamless these days. Going to new devices and keeping files is automagic. Again, I get the concern over cloud storage but there's no denying the simplicity, power and convenience.
 
heatlesssun said:
I know there's a lot of distrust over cloud storage in a place like this, but holy crap is it simple and convenient these days. OneDrive with a Windows 10 PC and an Android phone is near seamless these days. Going to new devices and keeping files is automagic. Again, I get the concern over cloud storage but there's no denying the simplicity, power and convenience.
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If it was super simple, that would be another good alternative.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
Lolol...

I like that Microsoft has continued to develop Windows. I like that Linux distro developers have done the same!
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Microsoft is developing windows allright, in the direction of eroding user control, and simply ignoring most of QA. You're willfully blind if you don't see the switch from incremental updates, to disguised full reinstalls as part of that. By assuming that we're arguing against development itself and not the lowering of QA standards, and the erosion of user oversight of ones own computer, you are deliberately strawmanning us. That to me seems as clear clear bias, and a will to use dishonesty to try and somehow misrepresent our stance.
And I see plenty of potentially useful stuff. And some less useful stuff
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All I see is plenty of potentially damaging stuff, and some less annoying stuff.

And I stand by my statement that failing to backup ones' important data puts the responsibility of loss of data entirely on the user
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So apply the same standard to theft: If you don't have full insurance coverage, the loss of valuables is entirely the fault of the owner? Yes it's stupid to keep gold bars under your pillow, but that doesn't mean we let the thief off the hook because the user didn't take enough precautions for such an occasion.

Not to mention the appalling hypocrisy of this: For years the argument for metro and other UI fuckups were: They're trying to make windows more friendly to less tech-savvy people. And when this happens? Well user error, why weren't you more tech savvy and made backups?! You can't have it both ways.
 
heatlesssun said:
You act as though every Windows 10 user is having these problems, they aren't. And if you're someone that's going with the latest and greatest PC hardware, these updates are necessary. 1809 is a must for RTX 2000 series owners if they want to be able to use all of the features of those cards as games begin to support them.
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Again with the dishonesty. You know damn well that most bugs are only experienced by a fraction of the user base and require specific circumstances to occur. So no it doesn't matter how many users are experiencing this, because this is a serious fuckup, not "business as usual" as you try to present it.

The only way windows can loose user files like this if it does something in an uncontrolled manner. This is fucking 101 of making a program that deletes stuff. You don't delete a directory as *.*, you have a list of files to be deleted and you only go trough those. Hell with windows I'd even have crc checks in place to make absolutely sure that I'm deleting the right files. Every damn uninstall system from installshield to nullsoft, will leave the program directory intact if it finds files there that don't belong to the installation. So I'm unreasonable that I'd hold MS to the same standards when doing an OS upgrade on billions of users computers? LOL. The first thing we learn working in IT is that the client's data is more important than your life, don't loose the client's data!
 
heatlesssun said:
Always happy to find alternatives. So how well does Linux work with two 2080 Tis these days?
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Better than a Windows machine with two 2080Ti's and no user profile I bet. ;)

The good thing about Linux is that we have a decent updating process that can make use of a file system that's vastly better than NTFS and a kernel that doesn't require shifting important data around in order to be updated.
 
NemesisX said:
It is absolutely insane to think that a gigantor company like Microsoft can have this sort of thing happen. I completely agree with you that the point isn't that we should keep backups ... it's that this sort of thing just simply shouldn't happen. This isn't some small bug. It's catastrophically stupid.
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Oh, we absolutely should keep backups, but at the same time we shouldn't let this slide. That's why I'm calling out the shills trying to claim this is a simple bug none could've foreseen.
 
M76 said:
Again with the dishonesty. You know damn well that most bugs are only experienced by a fraction of the user base and require specific circumstances to occur. So no it doesn't matter how many users are experiencing this, because this is a serious fuckup, not "business as usual" as you try to present it.

The only way windows can loose user files like this if it does something in an uncontrolled manner. This is fucking 101 of making a program that deletes stuff. You don't delete a directory as *.*, you have a list of files to be deleted and you only go trough those. Hell with windows I'd even have crc checks in place to make absolutely sure that I'm deleting the right files. Every damn uninstall system from installshield to nullsoft, will leave the program directory intact if it finds files there that don't belong to the installation. So I'm unreasonable that I'd hold MS to the same standards when doing an OS upgrade on billions of users computers? LOL. The first thing we learn working in IT is that the client's data is more important than your life, don't loose the client's data!
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Your statement is dishonest as it is based on half truths and only on one person's account. If this was a programming error than a hell of a lot of people would have experienced it already.
More people lose data every day to things much less malicious than Win10. But bashing anything MS or Win10 is so much sexier. No need for evidence, credibility or even the knowledge of facts. It's much less 'fun' (or true) that way.

7 pages of posts about a bug that no one has even confirmed. Totally worth it, instead of doing something useful. Talk about hyperboles and blowing things out of proportion.
This used to be a forum more about science than fiction.
 
heatlesssun said:
It's not that simple. Windows 7 isn't a better OS than 10 for 2 in 1 devices, high-DPI monitor setups and no one is going to run a pair of RTX 2080 Tis using Windows 7.
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We know, Win 10 is great for that fraction of a percent of users. Much success!
 
TordanGow said:
Like hell it doesn't.

Can you tell me how having backups doesn't address the loss of data. That's literally the whole point of backups, to prevent data loss. Deletion. Fire. A flood. Power Surge. Equipment failure. Yes, even a malfunctioning OS. All can be a catalyst for data loss.

I have my important (think irreplaceable family pictures/videos, documents, etc.) data backed up the following ways:
  • Second Hard Drive on PC (encrypted files)
  • Local NAS on network with ZFS Z-2. (encrypted before transfer of files)
  • Remote hard drive at Brother's house (encrypted before transfer of files)
  • Data-Store specific VM in a data center (encrypted before transfer of files)

Can you please tell me how my strategy that "Doesnt address the issue" would have resulted in me losing data to this bug?
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None of it makes Windows 10 not shit.
 
TordanGow said:
Like hell it doesn't.

Can you tell me how having backups doesn't address the loss of data. That's literally the whole point of backups, to prevent data loss. Deletion. Fire. A flood. Power Surge. Equipment failure. Yes, even a malfunctioning OS. All can be a catalyst for data loss.

I have my important (think irreplaceable family pictures/videos, documents, etc.) data backed up the following ways:
  • Second Hard Drive on PC (encrypted files)
  • Local NAS on network with ZFS Z-2. (encrypted before transfer of files)
  • Remote hard drive at Brother's house (encrypted before transfer of files)
  • Data-Store specific VM in a data center (encrypted before transfer of files)

Can you please tell me how my strategy that "Doesnt address the issue" would have resulted in me losing data to this bug?
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Picking your reply at random.

First, I agree: a working backup would prevent all data loss...from any time prior to that backup.

Here's where the Win10 updater screws folks over:

1. It will update without warning. If your backup schedule is monthly, and the Win10 update occurs on day 29, you've lost 29 days of data. Now, sure, you should perform more frequent backups, etc., but my point is how this update system can mess up folks.

2. The user has to KNOW that data has been lost and then recover it. If Win10 wipes out some folders, it's not like it says, "Hey, user! Ima gonna delete the "Family Vacation Photos" folder. Yousa wanna keep it?" No, it just says, "Update Complete." The user swirls his latte and gets back on the [H] forum, never thinking to do a forensic examination of his data before and after the update.

In short, an experienced user will have no issues. Most users will have no issues. But, Win10 is marketed to everyone; someone has lost data due to the update process. That is an OS coding problem.
 
I have repaired PCs where the Windows 10 updater has totally deleted the entire user profile on many occations. This is not a new issue.
 
mufcfan said:
Your statement is dishonest as it is based on half truths and only on one person's account. If this was a programming error than a hell of a lot of people would have experienced it already.
More people lose data every day to things much less malicious than Win10. But bashing anything MS or Win10 is so much sexier. No need for evidence, credibility or even the knowledge of facts. It's much less 'fun' (or true) that way.

7 pages of posts about a bug that no one has even confirmed. Totally worth it, instead of doing something useful. Talk about hyperboles and blowing things out of proportion.
This used to be a forum more about science than fiction.
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Oh, sry for assuming that the report is truthful and accurate. What is dishonest about that? If you don't even believe the report, what the hell do you want to discuss even?

Should we add "assuming the report is accurate" to the beginning of every sentence to make you feel better? Of course we assume it is accurate, we have no reason to doubt the credibility of the account. While your reason for not believing the account: You don't want it to be true, how is that more honest?

Did you read the post you're replying to? I've explained it there why this shouldn't happen if MS did their due diligence.
 
TordanGow said:
Like hell it doesn't.

Can you tell me how having backups doesn't address the loss of data. That's literally the whole point of backups, to prevent data loss. Deletion. Fire. A flood. Power Surge. Equipment failure. Yes, even a malfunctioning OS. All can be a catalyst for data loss.

I have my important (think irreplaceable family pictures/videos, documents, etc.) data backed up the following ways:
  • Second Hard Drive on PC (encrypted files)
  • Local NAS on network with ZFS Z-2. (encrypted before transfer of files)
  • Remote hard drive at Brother's house (encrypted before transfer of files)
  • Data-Store specific VM in a data center (encrypted before transfer of files)

Can you please tell me how my strategy that "Doesnt address the issue" would have resulted in me losing data to this bug?
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Because the issue is the thread title.
 
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M76 said:
Microsoft is developing windows allright, in the direction of eroding user control, and simply ignoring most of QA. You're willfully blind if you don't see the switch from incremental updates, to disguised full reinstalls as part of that. By assuming that we're arguing against development itself and not the lowering of QA standards, and the erosion of user oversight of ones own computer, you are deliberately strawmanning us. That to me seems as clear clear bias, and a will to use dishonesty to try and somehow misrepresent our stance.

All I see is plenty of potentially damaging stuff, and some less annoying stuff.


So apply the same standard to theft: If you don't have full insurance coverage, the loss of valuables is entirely the fault of the owner? Yes it's stupid to keep gold bars under your pillow, but that doesn't mean we let the thief off the hook because the user didn't take enough precautions for such an occasion.

Not to mention the appalling hypocrisy of this: For years the argument for metro and other UI fuckups were: They're trying to make windows more friendly to less tech-savvy people. And when this happens? Well user error, why weren't you more tech savvy and made backups?! You can't have it both ways.
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Yet, I have yet to have anyone show me proof that their data has been lost. Also, are we too now assume that Seagate and Western Digital are all responsible for the users data loss when their hard drives fail? Or Samsung and Sandisk when their SSD's fail? Also, no one has as yet told me whether their drives have that extra 200GB of free space or not.

As a technician, I need to see proof and logic, not emotional hysterics.
 
it happened to me before but that was an insider build, id assumed they fixed that problem by now. not sure they do much qc testing in their labs anymore. didn't they fire most of their testers?
 
ManofGod said:
Yet, I have yet to have anyone show me proof that their data has been lost. Also, are we too now assume that Seagate and Western Digital are all responsible for the users data loss when their hard drives fail? Or Samsung and Sandisk when their SSD's fail? Also, no one has as yet told me whether their drives have that extra 200GB of free space or not.

As a technician, I need to see proof and logic, not emotional hysterics.
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MS pulled the update. It's already been proven.

And harddisks failing have zero to do with MS forcing untested updates down users throats. If harddisk manufacturers were pushing out forced firmware updates that were causing data loss you better believe there'd be hell to pay.
 
Last edited:
DPI said:
MS pulled the update, brains. No one needs to prove anything to a combative shill. You are not the decider of anything.

And lol at harddisks failing as if that has fuckall to do with anything here with MS forcing an untested update on users. If harddisk manufacturers were pushing out forced firmware updates that were causing data loss you better believe thered be hell to pay.
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Well, at least take the time to actually repsond to what I said with being combative. Please, even the possibilities of this would mean pulling it makes sense, but hey, throwing rocks is easier, I guess.
 
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