Why Microsoft Killed the Windows Start Button

[jedijeb]

Click with the middle mouse button.

Looking, looking, hmm my mouse doesn't have a middle button. ( my good one broke and I had to dig out a very old one I had stuffed in a drawer for now).

Also my touchpad on my laptop doesn't have a middle button, I am sure it has some gesture equivalent but I just got it and haven't figured it all out yet.

 

[RealityCrunch]

Shift+Click also works.

 

[wonderfield]

Thinking about it, that's not really the "main" reason I don't like it, but it's one of them. Another thing I dislike is that you can have unopened program icons to the right of open programs, which just feels...odd.

It's beneficial, though, as pinned applications maintain their order on the taskbar (applications not pinned are always to the right of pinned applications and in the order they were launched). Users make strong associations with elements based on their position in the UI, and keeping open applications in a constant, learnable order in the taskbar is a major improvement to what used to be a practically random order. It is another one of those "you have to get used to it" deals, though.

I don't often give Microsoft much praise, but taskbar pinning is easily one of the best changes they've made to the UI in general in a long time, and it's still totally optional for people who'd rather stick with the way they've grown accustomed to working with it. "Options" isn't exactly the byword for the modern Microsoft approach to UI design anymore though, it seems.

 

[heatlesssun]

You aren't cluing anyone in to anything not already well-known (and well-authorized), so don't get too elated by your 'discovery'.

That's what's cool about you, tour ability to just make up stuff. If there were anything in life to be elated about, it would not be the obvious nor your user name. It's just that you have a long history of doing certain things like deliberate misquoting, making up random stuff and just wanted to keep it real.

 

[heatlesssun]

This is not a sentence.

And there's no edit here.

 

[heatlesssun]

"Options" isn't exactly the byword for the modern Microsoft approach to UI design anymore though, it seems.

There have never been a lot of built-in UI options in Windows. However other options are there. Windows 8 can be used effectively on a wider array of hardware and input methods than any other single OS.

 

[ClariorHincHonos]

There have never been a lot of built-in UI options in Windows. However other options are there. Windows 8 can be used effectively on a wider array of hardware and input methods than any other single OS.

We've had touch technology for about a decade now, and more refined tech for about 5. In that time, there have been nearly zero major breakthroughs or high adoption rates for touch interfaces on desktops. So your line about how it can be used effectively doesn't make much sense - 99.99% of desktop systems are going to use a kb/m combo. Why would consumers care about how effective 8 is on touch if they clearly don't care to buy touch for their desktop?

 

[LeninGHOLA]

There have never been a lot of built-in UI options in Windows. However other options are there. Windows 8 can be used effectively on a wider array of hardware and input methods than any other single OS.

I'm not terribly familiar with win8 yet, but why not make these kinds of things modular? Whether or not it is more effective in win8 doesn't take into account many users will not like the change, and likely not make the switch.

 

[brettjrob]

Also helpful.

Thinking about it, that's not really the "main" reason I don't like it, but it's one of them. Another thing I dislike is that you can have unopened program icons to the right of open programs, which just feels...odd.

I guess I am used to the Quick Launch bar and whatnot, but pinning to the taskbar does not really feel any more efficient than what I do currently so I don't see any motivation to switch.

I'm surprised to hear this opinion. I instantly fell in love with the Win 7 taskbar the moment I downloaded the RTM, and three years later, I'm still convinced it's the most perfect implementation of an application launcher ever seen in any OS. It grates me to no end when I have to revert to the old, clumsy QuickLaunch + taskbar combo on my Vista machine at work. Icons swapping places and overflowing the QL panel with every new app install, taskbar entries switching places and changing size as I work... arghhhh.

Honestly, I'd say the Win 7 taskbar is the single greatest UI change MS has ever introduced, and one of the rare times one has actually helped make an upgrade worth the cost.

 

[XamediX]

At the end of the day we'll let the market decide. I just hope the vocal minority doesn't infect the perspective too much so that it doesn't get a fair chance.

 

[SkribbelKat]

At the end of the day we'll let the market decide. I just hope the vocal minority doesn't infect the perspective too much so that it doesn't get a fair chance.

That's what happened to Vista and the Mojave experiment thing didn't really do much to fix it.

 

[melteye]

I'm surprised to hear this opinion. I instantly fell in love with the Win 7 taskbar the moment I downloaded the RTM, and three years later, I'm still convinced it's the most perfect implementation of an application launcher ever seen in any OS. It grates me to no end when I have to revert to the old, clumsy QuickLaunch + taskbar combo on my Vista machine at work. Icons swapping places and overflowing the QL panel with every new app install, taskbar entries switching places and changing size as I work... arghhhh.

Honestly, I'd say the Win 7 taskbar is the single greatest UI change MS has ever introduced, and one of the rare times one has actually helped make an upgrade worth the cost.

Agreed.

 

[XamediX]

That's what happened to Vista and the Mojave experiment thing didn't really do much to fix it.

But Vista still had actual functionality issues due to poor driver support at the time. The main beef with windows 8 is aesthetics.

 

[MavericK]

I'm surprised to hear this opinion. I instantly fell in love with the Win 7 taskbar the moment I downloaded the RTM, and three years later, I'm still convinced it's the most perfect implementation of an application launcher ever seen in any OS. It grates me to no end when I have to revert to the old, clumsy QuickLaunch + taskbar combo on my Vista machine at work. Icons swapping places and overflowing the QL panel with every new app install, taskbar entries switching places and changing size as I work... arghhhh.

Honestly, I'd say the Win 7 taskbar is the single greatest UI change MS has ever introduced, and one of the rare times one has actually helped make an upgrade worth the cost.

To each his own. Personally it's one of the first things I change/remove when I install Win7.

I'm not saying it's horrible by any means, and I could see someone liking it or getting used to it, I just don't see any reason to switch. It doesn't help my productivity or efficiency any to switch, so why bother?

 

[Tuffjuff]

I guess I'm still stuck in the Start Age. No Start button for me, no Win 8. Same with my older customers, they have universally given Win8 the thumbs down. They just don't care for it. I installed it on a system for customers to check out and so far it gets more disapproval than approval. My younger customers like it but they still like Win7, so there's that. Old dogs, new tricks and all that...

It just seems shortsighted to remove something that has become so iconic in Windows.

Same here.

Last I read, you could enable "classic" (i.e. Windows 7) aesthetics in Windows 8 but only in the dev previews, and when it hits retail you had to use Metro and couldn't turn it off. If this is true, I'll be using Windows 7 for a loooooooooooong time.

 

[SkribbelKat]

But Vista still had actual functionality issues due to poor driver support at the time. The main beef with windows 8 is aesthetics.

Yup, it had some technical issues too, but what version of Windows wasn't kinda broken on release before Vista? They -all- had their share of issues unless it was a minor update (Win95 SR2, Win98SE). Honestly, Win7 is the first OS outside of MS-DOS based stuff that worked pretty well out of the box. Because of that kinda reasoning, I really think that the whining and moaning from us did a lot more damage to Vista than the launch bugs. I suspect that the yelling and screaming from us will slow the adoption rate of 8 in much the same way.

Before I get lynched, I'm not implying that a lack of 8 sales will matter to me one way or the other. I'm just saying it's possible to do it in based on negativity. Sales will speak for themselves and we'll know for sure a few months after release, I guess.

 

[heatlesssun]

We've had touch technology for about a decade now, and more refined tech for about 5. In that time, there have been nearly zero major breakthroughs or high adoption rates for touch interfaces on desktops. So your line about how it can be used effectively doesn't make much sense - 99.99% of desktop systems are going to use a kb/m combo. Why would consumers care about how effective 8 is on touch if they clearly don't care to buy touch for their desktop?

Even today you or I can walk into any Best Buy or Office Depot and buy a touch based Windows all-in-one machine. But not a convertible Tablet PC or pure slate which is ironic at the very least. I'm not saying that means anything other than no matter what Windows 8 was or wasn't there's no way that a flat-lined PC market would see any better growth with a "pure" keyboard and mouse desktop OS than it would with a hybrid OS like Windows 8. The PC market sells a lot of cheap junk because of business and consumer need but there's certainly not a lot of love or interest in Windows and keyboard and mouse driven machines at the consumer level.

I'm not terribly familiar with win8 yet, but why not make these kinds of things modular? Whether or not it is more effective in win8 doesn't take into account many users will not like the change, and likely not make the switch.

I can have my Samsung Series 7 Slate which is running Windows 8 in its dock, connected to an external monitor, mouse and keyboard and work in Visual Studio 2012 writing Metro apps, or desktop apps or Excel spreadsheets or even some desktop games that will run well on it. I can then pull it out of its dock, take out the pen and sit on the couch writing emails or posts like this, just for a change of scenery, read in Kindle, heck even play Angry Birds Space on a touch screen and then when I need to get back to work I just put the S7S back in the dock and I'm back where I started.

If this is what's in store for PCs, what people will want and like and love then Windows 8 is perfect and will do well. If this isn't what people want then Windows 8 will fail. It is a far more interesting way of using a PC than being tied to a keyboard and mouse and for the first time in forever is an attempt to do something different with PCs, at least different from the perspective of most PC users today.

And yes, just give people the option to switch interfaces. The biggest issue with that is then what's the point of putting all of this stuff in Windows 8 just for people to turn off. If that's the case it would have been better for Microsoft to have kept windows 8 a keyboard and mouse only OS and developed a separate tablet OS.

 

[KENNYB]

I can then pull it out of its dock, take out the pen and sit on the couch writing emails or posts like this...

You used a pen to write this post?

 

[SkribbelKat]

You used a pen to write this post?

If Heatless could use his pen to write your post, then you two are closer than you're letting on!

 

[Chimel]

We are seeing people pin like crazy

Since when did crazy people become the norm?
And this is just the people who allow their computer to send usage data to Microsoft. That would probably exclude most of the professional users, as I doubt IT admins set up this option.

I pin about 8-10 of the most used apps to the Windows 7 taskbar, as the icons are always changing geographical location, depending on which of the previous icons are launched, so it takes some time to locate them. Even so, two of them (Firefox and Windows Explorer) are preset in the Startup menu, so I don't even have to launch them manually.

All the lesser used apps and some accessories are on the Quick Launch toolbar on two rows to fit over a dozen more one-click shortcuts. It's a fantastic compact toolbar because the icons take only half the space of those on the taskbar, and it uses the more natural left click every time rather than the mouse wheel click of the taskbar, although we are getting used to the wheel click to open hyperlinks on a separate tab in browsers.

Using the Shift+Click shortcut is kind of an aberration when you just want to use the mouse, not the keyboard and two hands, I much prefer the wheel click.

So I indeed don't use the Start menu that much, especially since I created a shortcut to "All Programs" in the Quick Launch toolbar, but that's a bit of a hack most users cannot even use, since the Quick Launch toolbar cannot be setup via the interface since Windows 7.

The removal of the interface for the Quick Launch toolbar is probably one of the major reasons why people pin like crazy, as the lack of management tools for the Start menu ultimately condemns it to disappear as unusable for its purpose of easily launching apps. Unfortunately, the Start menu is great, compact and efficient to use for people who manage it, without any scrolling, so it would be a sad loss to them.

I really despise switching between my open desktop apps and a full screen Metro Start scream just to launch another desktop app, this is just plain wrong. But then I don't even have a single icon on my desktop, not even the Recycle Bin, for the same reason, it requires to hide all open apps with Show Desktop, and also for a cosmetic reason, as a clean desktop looks, well, clean. That's entirely personal of course, but at least users were able to make Windows 7 suit their needs, not the other way round with this Windows 8 clumsy interface dictatorship.

 

[heatlesssun]

At the end of the day we'll let the market decide. I just hope the vocal minority doesn't infect the perspective too much so that it doesn't get a fair chance.

Windows 8 will be a something like a Tale of Two Cities. On one hand with older conventional hardware you'll see these kinds of reviews:

"I really wanted to like Windows 8. It boots fast, all of my drivers and desktop work as well as Windows 7. But the UI isn't Windows 7, it's some weird hybrid that tried to be a PC and tablet and fails at both. The tiles are too Fisher-Price. The power options are on the wrong side. It just like Windows Vista except that everything runs faster and doesn't crash. Thumbs down."

Then on good new hardware like the Surface will probably be the reviews will go more like this:

"I get it now. Yes, Windows 8 is two operating systems in one but that works well because the device I'm using it on is two devices in one. When I go on the road I no longer need a laptop and a tablet. While Microsoft my have left a generation of PC users scratching their heads as to why they dumped the Start Menu and Button, no it doesn't make a lot of sense on a keyboard and mouse driven PC. But on a device like this, it makes perfect sense. Windows 8 isn't about the PC you have but the one you will use in the future."

 

[Tudz]

People pinning like crazy and not using the start menu? They sure aren't talking about me. I have a total of 4 things pinned to my taskbar; web browser, windows explorer, foobar, windows media centre.

The start menu on the other hand, I have about 10 things pinned there, and quite often use the "recently used links" in the start menu as well.

I'm not the sort of person who likes a bunch of icons spread across a space and much prefer a nice list with both icons and names next to them. My brain just associates better with it. My Windows Explorer is set to "details" view because that's what I find easiest to navigate.

Also... people were using the start menu less so they decided to make the damned thing full screen and less efficient? That's thinking for you!

 

[heatlesssun]

You used a pen to write this post?

Yep, I was watching the news when I wrote it. I type ALL day long and it's just a way to change pace for me. Plus I'm pretty fast with a pen in the tablet input panel, around 40 WPM, it's become second nature to me. This is one of the coolest things about Windows 8 and the thing I think consumer will like. It simply gives people options to use PCs like they haven't before and with all of supposed force that Microsoft is applying with Metro it's remarkable to me that I can use a Windows 8 PC with so many different form factors and input methods and in different environments.

 

[heatlesssun]

and quite often use the "recently used links" in the start menu as well.

One of the things that I bemoaned as well: http://windows7themes.net/file-hist...used-files-on-windows-8-with-one-command.html

Then when you're in this explorer window you can right click on "Favorites" and add it there.

 

[DrDoug]

...

The PC market sells a lot of cheap junk because of business and consumer need but there's certainly not a lot of love or interest in Windows and keyboard and mouse driven machines at the consumer level.

My customers and I would beg to differ with you. While most have some of the best phones offered today, they still love their desktop computers, old mouse and keyboard notwithstanding. You keep saying this as if it's fact when anyone who deals with computers at the consumer level knows that it isn't.

Projection won't change old habits, no matter how much you think it will.

"Windows 8 isn't about the PC you have but the one you will use in the future."

Which will make it the Bulldozer of operating systems.

 

[KENNYB]

Yep, I was watching the news when I wrote it. I type ALL day long and it's just a way to change pace for me. Plus I'm pretty fast with a pen in the tablet input panel, around 40 WPM, it's become second nature to me. This is one of the coolest things about Windows 8 and the thing I think consumer will like. It simply gives people options to use PCs like they haven't before and with all of supposed force that Microsoft is applying with Metro it's remarkable to me that I can use a Windows 8 PC with so many different form factors and input methods and in different environments.

I understand having options, but writing a long post is much easier using a keyboard. You're not the first person I've seen mention this as if it's a good thing. Windows 8 feels like it's giving people options they don't want.

 

[heatlesssun]

I understand having options, but writing a long post is much easier using a keyboard. You're not the first person I've seen mention this as if it's a good thing. Windows 8 feels like it's giving people options they don't want.

I'm not saying that a keyboard isn't faster, but I was simply doing something leisurely and in a way I felt like doing it at the time. This is one theme I see repeated over and over with Windows 8 opponents. It's like everything thing done on a PC has to be done with a stopwatch and well, it's 1/10th second slower that's just horrible. If doing stuff in super duper hurry is the only use of computer then there's NO WAY that iPads would have done so well.

This is one reason why though I'm not an Jobs fan he actually understood the concept of ENJOYING a computing experienced as opposed to having to have everything done as fast as possible, like using a computer is something that you want to hurry up with because the experience sucks so bad.

And since most people haven't actually used Windows on devices like tablets or hybrids how would people even know they don't want it?

 

[heatlesssun]

My customers and I would beg to differ with you. While most have some of the best phones offered today, they still love their desktop computers, old mouse and keyboard notwithstanding. You keep saying this as if it's fact when anyone who deals with computers at the consumer level knows that it isn't.

Projection won't change old habits, no matter how much you think it will.

I've been using Windows on desktops since day one practically, the last 26 years when Windows 1.0 came out. You won't find a bigger Windows PC fan on desktops or any other tops than me. But the idea that average people love Windows desktops like they love iPads? No, don't see it and neither does Microsoft as they just talked yesterday about how tablets will outsell desktops next year. And if they thought people loved Windows on desktops and keyboards and mice and were willing to actually BUY them and pay more than bare minimum for something that they actually wanted as opposed thought needed, Windows 8 would be an entirely different product.

Which will make it the Bulldozer of operating systems.

Other than the fact that there will be new hardware on day one of Windows 8's release, yeah just like BD.

 

[KENNYB]

I'm not saying that a keyboard isn't faster, but I was simply doing something leisurely and in a way I felt like doing it at the time. This is one theme I see repeated over and over with Windows 8 opponents. It's like everything thing done on a PC has to be done with a stopwatch and well, it's 1/10th second slower that's just horrible. If doing stuff in super duper hurry is the only use of computer then there's NO WAY that iPads would have done so well.

This is one reason why though I'm not an Jobs fan he actually understood the concept of ENJOYING a computing experienced as opposed to having to have everything done as fast as possible, like using a computer is something that you want to hurry up with because the experience sucks so bad.

And since most people haven't actually used Windows on devices like tablets or hybrids how would people even know they don't want it?

How about I ask you to remove a screw and you get to choose between a 1 inch and 6 inch screw driver. Which one will you choose? Both can do the job, but one is much easier to use.

And I'm not an opponent of Windows, in general. I am an opponent of garbage that belongs on a tablet, not a desktop.

 

[Tudz]

This is one reason why though I'm not an Jobs fan he actually understood the concept of ENJOYING a computing experienced as opposed to having to have everything done as fast as possible, like using a computer is something that you want to hurry up with because the experience sucks so bad.

I want to enjoy my computing experience, but that has little to do with the OS. The OS should be out of the way and efficient. It's the programs I use on the OS that I want to be enjoying, not the UI of the OS.

 

[tlkimball]

I call shenanigans on Microsoft...

 

[rudy]

I think it breaks intuition. If a person sits down at a computing device and there is no visual element for them to look to it is harder to learn. Sure people will learn it but they will have that bad first impression.

But it seems companies are moving this way, probably thanks to stupid iphones. Seriously I get on one and I dont get it, 1 button is suppose to do everything? No it doesnt it just does not do alot of stuff. I thought google had it best with android then in ICS they removed the freaking meny button. I thought the menu button was awesome, a universal place to put settings but now they are getting rid of the menu button.

 

[DrDoug]

I've been using Windows on desktops since day one practically, the last 26 years when Windows 1.0 came out. You won't find a bigger Windows PC fan on desktops or any other tops than me. But the idea that average people love Windows desktops like they love iPads? No, don't see it and neither does Microsoft as they just talked yesterday about how tablets will outsell desktops next year. And if they thought people loved Windows on desktops and keyboards and mice and were willing to actually BUY them and pay more than bare minimum for something that they actually wanted as opposed thought needed, Windows 8 would be an entirely different product.

Same here, I've been in computing since 1982 and decided to make my career in building and repairing them by 1986. I know my customers very well and I don't need you or Microsoft to tell me what they think, that's for damned sure. Microsoft has made some big mistakes in the past and by forcing the tablet in to the desktop arena, I believe that Microsoft is making another mistake. I may be wrong in that but consumer feedback is part of my business model and my customers don't care for their desktop getting changed out from under them. These same people love their iPhones and such, but they love their desktop more because it's theirs. No contracts, no monthly fees, no cloud storage, it's theirs to control. Many of them also have laptops for travel but don't care to use them at home in lieu of a desktop. They like sitting down at their desk and using their computers, really.

The other tech goodies are fun but their home computers are the real deal for them.

Other than the fact that there will be new hardware on day one of Windows 8's release, yeah just like BD.

That one zoomed right over your head...lol! Go read about Bulldozer and how AMD said it was built for the future of computing. The problem for AMD is that that's the future and BD isn't that hot for the home computing power user right now. IOW, AMD is selling processors but nowhere near the level that they wish would sell. That's not to say that this won't eventually pay off for AMD but it hurt their sales in the now, when they need to sell them.

One thing that I can safely say for sure though is that you sure seem to be plugged in to pumping MS/Win 8 here, quickly dismissing any opinion other than Microsoft's and your own. It's almost like you work there, have a family member that works there or that you own stock in MS that you want to go up in value.

That or you are the equivalent of the rabid Apple fan but from the other side of the aisle.

 

[Morlock]

I don't have any icons on my desktop either.

Me neither. I agree with M$ that the Desktop is irrelevant. The only thing I keep there is a shortcut to a folder named "my desktop" on another partition, and the recycle bin. Windows crashes and burns way too often for me to trust any frequently-updated data to the system partition.

Having zero desktop icons is about as silly as having a million of them, IMO. It's there for a reason, use it!

Yeah but AFAICT the reason it's there for is "data loss," which I don't need, so I don't use it.

I don't have anything pinned to my taskbar.

Me neither. Every time an app pins itself to the task bar, I undo it. I pin everything I need to the start menu. Like everyone else, I just figured out how to explore those start menu folders (I remember when I first found the directories in Vista, looking at their addresses, I was like "WTF is this shit" lol) and sorted them into a semblance of order.

The only time I use the Windows key is when Media Center has trapped my mouse and I want to escape. One reason I guess I never got into it is I pried the left hand Windows key out of my keyboard years ago so I couldn't hit it while gaming. And that just makes my mouse the easiest way to get to the start button.

my task bar is also positioned at the top of my screen instead of the bottom

I keep mine on the right hand side. I've never understood using it horizontally, just means fewer buttons and more info I don't need, and less vertical screen space, AFAICT.

I hate the way Windows 7 combines things when programs are pinned down there.

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, that's one of those "first things I do" after a fresh install. It's really easy to turn off, just right click on start button>properties>Taskbar tab>select "never combine" from Taskbar buttons drop-down. There's a registry setting to disable that annoying taskbar button preview thing, or more accurately, to delay it out the wazoo, and that's on my "first things" list too. It's "taskbarbuttonhovertime" or some such.

hit start button on keyboard, type, hit enter

the EXACT same thing you do in windows 7

the start menu is for noobs

Maybe ignorance is bliss, but I just don't get this. I can see hotkey-ers saying this, but key>typing>key guys? It's not like I need that much interaction for the 10 apps I use over and over.

This reminds me of that radial menu from some CRPGs. That might actually be an improvement, for Windows. You hit a key, your cursor is replaced with a radial menu, you select your app.

People go on and on about how inefficient it is but then I'm thinking how efficient is can it possibly be scrolling through a long hierarchal list of things. When did scrolling through long hierarchal lists with a mouse become efficient?

I don't do much of either. Once I get everything sorted it's the same 10 apps I have pinned to the Start menu, over and over. It's only a small fraction of the time that I have to click more than twice.

At what point do designers get to innovate and break away from the old methods and work on finding new and improved and more efficient ways to use a computer? Surely they didn't get it 100% right on the first try back in 1995...

When they leave the OS team and join an app team? I'm only kinda kidding. When I drive onto a highway, I'm not looking for innovations, I'm looking for stability and familiarity. I like innovation under the hood of my car. On the road in front of me? Not so much.

 

[MavericK]

Me neither. I agree with M$ that the Desktop is irrelevant. The only thing I keep there is a shortcut to a folder named "my desktop" on another partition, and the recycle bin. Windows crashes and burns way too often for me to trust any frequently-updated data to the system partition.



Yeah but AFAICT the reason it's there for is "data loss," which I don't need, so I don't use it.

You realize you can change the default location of the desktop to a different drive, right?

 

[sleepeeg3]

Pinning is the worst idea ever. If I wanted to clutter my main screen with every app I have ever used, I would use a Mac. Instead of the entire screen, it tries to take over your taskbar. I installed Classic Shell and restored the quick launch bar as soon as Windows 7 came along. Windows 8 is a total pass for me.

 

[heatlesssun]

Same here, I've been in computing since 1982 and decided to make my career in building and repairing them by 1986. I know my customers very well and I don't need you or Microsoft to tell me what they think, that's for damned sure. Microsoft has made some big mistakes in the past and by forcing the tablet in to the desktop arena, I believe that Microsoft is making another mistake. I may be wrong in that but consumer feedback is part of my business model and my customers don't care for their desktop getting changed out from under them. These same people love their iPhones and such, but they love their desktop more because it's theirs. No contracts, no monthly fees, no cloud storage, it's theirs to control. Many of them also have laptops for travel but don't care to use them at home in lieu of a desktop. They like sitting down at their desk and using their computers, really.

The other tech goodies are fun but their home computers are the real deal for them.

Not really sure where you're getting the I that I or Microsoft is trying to anyone what to think. Microsoft is a business trying to sell a product and the idea is that they are trying to make a product they think people will buy. Sure a lot of people like desktops, but there's no growth there. Few PC OEMs are seeing any growth and ever shrinking profits. If the Windows PC market and specifically desktops is all that healthy, why are the numbers so blah? If Windows 8 isn't the product that will get people to buy more PCs then what exactly is?

As for Tablet PCs before Windows 8, there's really no comparison. The Tablet PCs that came out even last year running Windows 7 suck compared to devices like what Surface appears to be. Even current Windows 7 Tablet PCs are much better running Windows 8.

That one zoomed right over your head...lol! Go read about Bulldozer and how AMD said it was built for the future of computing. The problem for AMD is that that's the future and BD isn't that hot for the home computing power user right now. IOW, AMD is selling processors but nowhere near the level that they wish would sell. That's not to say that this won't eventually pay off for AMD but it hurt their sales in the now, when they need to sell them.

No, I totally got it because I've heard the joke before and again there will be machines not in the future but on the day of Windows 8 release that are unlike any PCs most people have ever seen, indeed unlike any anyone has seen.

One thing that I can safely say for sure though is that you sure seem to be plugged in to pumping MS/Win 8 here, quickly dismissing any opinion other than Microsoft's and your own. It's almost like you work there, have a family member that works there or that you own stock in MS that you want to go up in value.

That or you are the equivalent of the rabid Apple fan but from the other side of the aisle.

As I said, big Windows fan and have been for almost 3 decades now. I make a living with Microsoft tech but have never worked for Microsoft in any capacity. I've actually have listened very intently to other people's opinions about Windows 8 and I think I try much harder to see the other side of it than most Windows 8 opponents do. I've been using Windows 8 daily since the Developer Preview came out on a keyboard and mouse desktop, convertible tablet and two pure slates. I think I have a pretty good understanding what works well and what doesn't simply because I use it constantly.

When I first started using it I had two questions that I wanted to answer. Can I use Windows 8 as a desktop OS as effectively as Windows 7 and is Windows 8 a better tablet OS than Windows 7? On the desktop Windows 8 is different without question, but ultimately I can do the all the same things I do on Windows 7, it's no more time consuming or difficult. For what I do on a PC, gaming, software development, Office, web browsing, media play back, the experience on the desktop just hasn't been that different day to day. I'm not telling anyone what to think, I'm just reporting my experience, what else can anyone do? I've said plenty of times that Windows 8 might fail but the one thing it REALLY is good at is mobile and tablets and going from desktop to tablet and back. When it comes to tablets, there's no contest, Windows 8 is VASTLY superior to Windows 7. Not even close.

So the I see Windows 8, the desktop experience is different but day to day usability for even advanced users isn't that different once you get used to it. The desktop experience is in essence preserved. And when it comes to tablets, the experience is so superior to Windows 7 that I think that being able to preserve the essence of the desktop and so greatly add to the tablet side is a great thing.

Windows 8 isn't perfect, many of the Metro apps suffer from keyboard and mouse glitches, some odd behavior I've noticed with the Start Screen on a dual monitor setup, etc. But, and this is the big question, if people do want devices that can serve the dual role of a tablet and a desktop, then Windows 8 should do well if good hardware is there at the right price. So that's how I see Windows 8 from my use of it. I know many if not most here will see it that way and I've not told a soul what to think. But I certainly don't know how I would just ignore my experiences and simply just agree with people who haven't used Windows 8 much.

 

[Morlock]

You realize you can change the default location of the desktop to a different drive, right?

No, actually I didn't. I'm glad they finally wised up, but I stopped digging into OS features a long time ago. I'm one of those creatures of habit. Once I start doing something a certain way, I keep doing it that way until I'm forced to change.

 

[entropy13]

I'd just like to say that Windows 8 would be a disaster simply because the fastest growing tech market in the world has really no need for its features. All who gets tablets just plays Temple Run, Angry Birds, Slice It, etc.

 

[Morlock]

Pinning is the worst idea ever. If I wanted to clutter my main screen with every app I have ever used, I would use a Mac. Instead of the entire screen, it tries to take over your taskbar. I installed Classic Shell and restored the quick launch bar as soon as Windows 7 came along. Windows 8 is a total pass for me.

I don't think it's the worst idea ever, I just didn't like it so I don't use it. I'm fine with the Start menu and pinning my apps there. Occasionally my taskbar gets close to filled, and pinning apps there would mean less space for what I'm actually using. I guess turning "combine" back on might clear that up, but I don't like the way it works.