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Why Microsoft Killed the Windows Start Button

SerpentSix said:
I need to get to shit fast. I have Apps pinned all the way across my taskbar.
The only time I need the start menu is to dig for something I rarely use.
Granted they could have left it in but damn you guys act like the raped your little sister.
Searching from the Metro UI is ridiculously fast.

Some of you say I don't pin anything to my start menu...so you like having to drill down to find stuff?

I give MS credit for trying something new and risky.
Click to expand...

I don't drill down to find stuff. Why do you think that you would need to if you didn't pin things to the taskbar?
 
wonderfield said:
While true, security vulnerabilities are more likely in the Start Screen with its support for loading remote data within Live Tiles and JavaScript execution. So we're talking about getting rid of one thing and replacing it with another thing (with its associated code and opportunity for error as a result of that code) and an increase in potential vulnerabilities due to the nature of the that thing.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty good point! I didn't even think about it that way. ^^ Still though, they are getting rid of extra lines of code and making junk go faster so I'll take the new interface if I can get an OS with more delicious inside goo.

nOrVow said:
C'mon guys 14 more pages... go go go!
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Hehe, I love these kinda threads!

MavericK96 said:
3 pages here...change your PPP settings. :p
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That sounds a little bit dirty. But what's wrong with the default PPP settings? They're like the golden standard that everyone is showered with when they make a new account.
 
wonderfield said:
It certainly was a significant upgrade to what was in 3.11. I don't think anyone would accuse it of being a bad design choice in '95.

If you try to look at the Start Screen objectively, there are both improvements and shortcomings. An improvement would be Live Tiles: you can present more information on them, and that can be useful. A shortcoming would be the way search results are sub-categorized and require additional clicks/keypresses to access in comparison to the Start Menu. Another potential shortcoming would be the inability to maintain access on open windows and/or the desktop when using the Start Screen, since the desktop becomes completely occluded.

On the whole, I don't believe most users stand to benefit from the Start Screen. It's a step forward for touch, but I don't think it's a step forward in other respects.
Click to expand...

You bring up a good point that I haven't really considered as much. I use 2 or 3 monitors for my desktop as do most of my coworkers and friends. So we don't mind the new Start Screen taking up a whole monitor. I can see this being a problem for users who only have 1 monitor though attached to their desktops.

For a Tablet, it should still take up the whole tablet screen because you have limited space anyways and bigger buttons are easier to click so obviously like you said it's great for a tablet.
 
wait... people use mice in windows? but they are so inefficient :|

sure they are handy in games.... that's about the only time I ever touch one.
and hey in windows 8, that hasn't changed, nor has efficiency gone up or down
 
LeninGHOLA said:
I don't drill down to find stuff. Why do you think that you would need to if you didn't pin things to the taskbar?
Click to expand...

Well you do one of these things:

1. Drill down through the start menu.
2. Use the stat menu search box.
3. Use shortcut hotkeys.

All 3 of these take more than one mouse click or key press so they are obviously less efficient than the single mouse click on a pinned app.

Or, you use desktop icon shortcuts, but then when you have launched an application you still have the desktop shortcut showing as well as the application showing in your task bar which is redundant. It takes up twice as much screen space to display the application's icon twice.

The only other option is using a third party application launcher which could be a good option as well.
 
heatlesssun said:
But it does cost something which is the main point of Windows 8 if the idea is to "turn off" Metro and just have a keyboard and mouse driven desktop.
Click to expand...

But why the mutual-exclusion? And why ban apps that re-enable the functionality of the start menu? That absolutely doesn't cost MS a dime if some independent party is doing it.
 
SirMaster said:
Well you do one of these things:

1. Drill down through the start menu.
2. Use the stat menu search box.
3. Use shortcut hotkeys.

All 3 of these take more than one mouse click or key press so they are obviously less efficient than the single mouse click on a pinned app.

Or, you use desktop icon shortcuts, but then when you have launched an application you still have the desktop shortcut showing as well as the application showing in your task bar which is redundant. It takes up twice as much screen space to display the application's icon twice.

The only other option is using a third party application launcher which could be a good option as well.
Click to expand...

Damn, hitting 2-3 keys is so terribly inneficient, I'm not sure how I could ever get anything done.

Say I type 70wpm; is it faster to move my mouse over an icon and click, or just hit a couple keys? Is it close enough not to matter at all?

I like a clean desktop.
 
Winkey + search is only useful if you already know the name of what you need. If you use a lot of productivity tools and corporate programs, then you have to drill down to find those oddly named things that no one remembers. If you already know what you need, it should just be pinned anyways.

But the real problem, imo, is the fact that it is full screen. Pressing the win key obfuscates all your work on a monitor. Heck, I run multi-monitor and I find the full screen very irritating. It interrupts the work flow.

Basically, the OS should stay out of the way as much as possible. This is why casual people love apple and android. Because it just works without feeling like it is butting its head in. Win 8's start screen is the opposite.
 
wonderfield said:
If you try to look at the Start Screen objectively, there are both improvements and shortcomings. An improvement would be Live Tiles: you can present more information on them, and that can be useful. A shortcoming would be the way search results are sub-categorized and require additional clicks/keypresses to access in comparison to the Start Menu. Another potential shortcoming would be the inability to maintain access on open windows and/or the desktop when using the Start Screen, since the desktop becomes completely occluded.
Click to expand...

Yes, as with anything new and different there's pros and cons, however I think that so many people are trying to look at Windows 8 as Windows 7 and don't see some of the things that actually do work better.

Search, MUCH better in Windows 8. Sure in Windows 7 you got a single list, but those searches were strictly local file based for the most part, though there was an extensibility model that was little used. And even in Windows 7 you might get a single list that had tons of results that didn't show up in that list and then had to open up another dialog anyway. Any Metro app can easily hook in to the Search system and provide results, there's no limit to what can be searched, it will actually be used widely unlike Windows 7 so there had to be a better way to mange it.

As for the Start Menu using a full screen, there's not yet a single case in nine months where that had any effect on my work flow. Since the Start Menu has to stay in focus to remain expanded, the only drawback with the Start Screen would be having a visual of something that was not covered by the Start Screen that somehow facilitated the use of the Start Screen. It's just the thing that sounds like a valid issue on paper but in the real world has extremely low impact.

On the whole, I don't believe most users stand to benefit from the Start Screen. It's a step forward for touch, but I don't think it's a step forward in other respects.[/QUOTE]
 
teh_chem said:
But why the mutual-exclusion? And why ban apps that re-enable the functionality of the start menu? That absolutely doesn't cost MS a dime if some independent party is doing it.
Click to expand...

So with a desktop and mouse Windows works like this but on a touch screen it works like that. That increases complexity and confusion if the idea it to just "turn off Metro". Now if the idea is to add something like Start Menu in addition to Metro, that would make more sense in that it doesn't radically change the appearance and capabilities of the OS through the flip of a switch.

And I don't think Microsoft is banning anything, they're simply removing the Start Menu that came with prior versions of Windows. If 3rd parties want to add there own Start Menu equivalents there's nothing to stop them.
 
SkribbelKat said:
That sounds a little bit dirty. But what's wrong with the default PPP settings? They're like the golden standard that everyone is showered with when they make a new account.
Click to expand...

I think you answered your own question. :cool:
 
wonderfield said:
See post #29.
Click to expand...

The Start Menu does not afford non-Microsoft affiliated developers to capitalize on a brand new market for Windows software in which those 3rd parties will gain much more in direct revenue than Microsoft. The Start Menu also limits the ability for OEMs to sell new touch screen and tablet form factors as the Start Menu is ill suited form them.
 
Haven't read to see if people mention it, but the launchy.net program is so nice to use for anyone who has their hands on the keyboard for any length of time.
 
wonderfield said:
The Start Menu does not afford users the opportunity to buy additional software from Microsoft. The Start Screen does afford users the opportunity to buy additional software from Microsoft.

You do the math.
Click to expand...

I wonder if we'll see a lot more small apps released by Microsoft to help them capitalize on it. They'll already be getting increased exposure and ease of purchase for their current software, but they shouldn't stop there.
 
wonderfield said:
I'm not saying it's high-impact, just that it's a shortcoming.
Click to expand...

It's very difficult to see the shortcoming of something when it has no impact that I personally have never experienced. In the 17 years I've used the Start Menu, I simply cannot recall ever, one single instance where seeing the rest of the screen mattered. Not one in 17 years. The only time it would matter is for searching and that's when copy and paste is a heck of lot more efficient than rekeying. I guess if one needed to something that wasn't copyable as text and then use that as reference to use the Start Menu.

If that's a shortcoming, then so be it. It's beyond insignificant regardless.
 
Posting to confirm that the Start button and the controversy around it matters. :rolleyes:

I start my programs from the task bar or a desktop shortcut. Why I could do something inefficient as clicking Start -> All Programs -> Scoll till I find the one I want -> Hover to open it's subfolder to find the one I want to execute I don't know.

Fewer clicks is a good thing.
 
RealityCrunch said:
I wonder if we'll see a lot more small apps released by Microsoft to help them capitalize on it. They'll already be getting increased exposure and ease of purchase for their current software, but they shouldn't stop there.
Click to expand...
If the Mac App Store is any indication, we may expect to see reduced prices on Microsoft software, but may not see an increase in the amount of software. That said, Microsoft's had a digital distribution platform for a while now (the Microsoft Store) and, near as I know, it hasn't resulted in price reductions. Looking at Office, in fact, you see that buying digital copies directly from Microsoft is more expensive than buying product keys from etailers, so it's anyone's guess.

heatlesssun said:
If that's a shortcoming, then so be it.
Click to expand...
I'm pleased to hear that your authorization on the matter has been so generously and ceremoniously granted.
 
Thuleman said:
Posting to confirm that the Start button and the controversy around it matters. :rolleyes:

I start my programs from the task bar or a desktop shortcut. Why I could do something inefficient as clicking Start -> All Programs -> Scoll till I find the one I want -> Hover to open it's subfolder to find the one I want to execute I don't know.

Fewer clicks is a good thing.
Click to expand...

I think most people here use the word efficient when they really mean what they're used to. As you say, how in the world is scrolling through a tiny scrolling hierarchical menu efficient? Pin common stuff to the task bar, lesser common stuff to the front of the Start Screen. That's no less than a good 30 apps that are just as fast to launch in Windows 8 as Windows 7 on a 1366x768 screen.
 
Why I could do something inefficient as clicking Start -> All Programs -> Scoll till I find the one I want -> Hover to open it's subfolder to find the one I want to execute I don't know.
Click to expand...

Using the Start Menu in such a manner is extremely inefficient. :p

Start Key > Type first 1 to 3 letters of program name > Enter. All of which takes less than 1 second to do and can launch programs, control panel items, documents, etc.

I find I've often got too many programs open at once to use the desktop for launching, and the task bar can only fit so many pinned apps before it fills up. Most of this comes down to an individual's style of using the OS, though.
 
I'm still amazed that so many people still havent woken up to the fact it's got nothing to do with user experience, improving the UI etc. etc.

Nothing at all. Zero. Zip.

It's all about railroading users into the Metro environment so they BUY APPS.

They want to make sure Joe user get fed up with the desktop, make them hate it so they learn to live most of the time in Metro Land where they will buy apps lots of lovely apps that MS get a nice healthy chunk of.

It's marketing, shitty calculated marketing and nothing else.

Anyone thinking this is MS being revolutionary/visionary/enlightened is just delusional.

They just want your money.
 
RealityCrunch said:
Using the Start Menu in such a manner is extremely inefficient. :p

Start Key > Type first 1 to 3 letters of program name > Enter. All of which takes less than 1 second to do and can launch programs, control panel items, documents, etc.

I find I've often got too many programs open at once to use the desktop for launching, and the task bar can only fit so many pinned apps before it fills up. Most of this comes down to an individual's style of using the OS, though.
Click to expand...

That's why you can still Start Key > Type 1-3 letters press enter in Win8 :)
 
sabar said:
But the real problem, imo, is the fact that it is full screen. Pressing the win key obfuscates all your work on a monitor. Heck, I run multi-monitor and I find the full screen very irritating. It interrupts the work flow.
Click to expand...

That's the number one reason why I hate it. I know the names of most of my programs; with Windows 7 I can just hit the Windows key and type in the program shortcut name - all without taking my eyes off whatever program I'm in. It's as fast, efficient, and unobtrusive as the user interface can possibly get.

Having the start screen pop up every time will be very annoying.

Windows 7 is an OS. Windows 8 will be an OS with an app store wrapped around it - much to the chagrin of many of us "old timers" who only need or want an OS. Microsoft can't sell things on the old start menu since it's just a part of the Windows user interface, so they're replacing it with Metro so that people will buy apps to put on it. I bet that's the real reason why they're killing the start menu.
 
SockMan! said:
That's the number one reason why I hate it. I know the names of most of my programs; with Windows 7 I can just hit the Windows key and type in the program shortcut name - all without taking my eyes off whatever program I'm in. It's as fast, efficient, and unobtrusive as the user interface can possibly get.

Having the start screen pop up every time will be very annoying.

Windows 7 is an OS. Windows 8 will be an OS with an app store wrapped around it - much to the chagrin of many of us "old timers" who only need or want an OS. Microsoft can't sell things on the old start menu since it's just a part of the Windows user interface, so they're replacing it with Metro so that people will buy apps to put on it. I bet that's the real reason why they're killing the start menu.
Click to expand...

If you're opening a new program, doesn't that mean your eyes will be off the one you're currently looking at in a few moments anyhow? People's brains are pretty much not able to do more than one thing at a time so yeah, it's kinda distracting, but I dunno if it's worth getting too miffed about.
 
I thought it was because Ballmer went hipster. The Start button has so already been done.

(probably going to skip 8 unless someone can bring back most of the functionality of the Start menu and make the OS boot into the desktop. dear ms: my desktop and laptop are not phones.)
 
MavericK96 said:
Same here. The main thing I don't like about pinning is that you can't just click the icon to bring up another instance of the program, because once you open it the icon becomes the open program. So you have to right click and manually open another one. Kind of annoying after awhile and it's easier to just use the Quick Launch bar (another feature that they made overly complicated to get access to in Win 7).
Click to expand...

Click with the middle mouse button.
 
heatlesssun said:
I think most people here use the word efficient when they really mean what they're used to. As you say, how in the world is scrolling through a tiny scrolling hierarchical menu efficient? Pin common stuff to the task bar, lesser common stuff to the front of the Start Screen. That's no less than a good 30 apps that are just as fast to launch in Windows 8 as Windows 7 on a 1366x768 screen.
Click to expand...

So, use both UI's? Is Desktop an app, or is it a separate UI that is used for compatibility? Is Metro the new UI or just a Start menu. These are conflicting comments that I've noticed.

Use the Taskbar to pin stuff, in this UI (or app, not sure yet). Or add icons to the other UI.

Metro is the main UI for Windows 8. Metro is the new Start menu for Windows 8.

I like Windows 8, these are just some constructive criticisms that I've thought of with all the back and forth with critics and Microsoft. I'm a supporter of Metro, it's just not perfect and I've still got some complaints.
 
ManofGod said:
Click with the middle mouse button.
Click to expand...

Also helpful.

Thinking about it, that's not really the "main" reason I don't like it, but it's one of them. Another thing I dislike is that you can have unopened program icons to the right of open programs, which just feels...odd.

I guess I am used to the Quick Launch bar and whatnot, but pinning to the taskbar does not really feel any more efficient than what I do currently so I don't see any motivation to switch.
 
Meh, just test it out and if you don't like it, switch back to Windows 7. :)

Innovation means change.
 
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