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Why Microsoft Killed the Windows Start Button

TechLarry said:
This.

Microsoft is getting into the nasty habit of taking away choices.

Windows 8 and the Start Menu.

Office (and Windows 8) no more Icon bars for you, here's ribbons and you are gonna like it.

The trend is disturbing.
Click to expand...

Hi TechLarry! :) I just wanted to say that I agree that losing choices for how you use the interface and interact with the operating system is probably bad. I think in this case though, there's some kinda trade-off being made. Microsoft can make a leaner, faster OS with less code and (potentially) fewer possible mistakes, bugs, or security holes to worry about having to fix later. If the cost of getting a more betterer and more leanerer OS is losing a few options, I'm not sure I have a really big gripe with the loss.

Plus, you have to admit that Metro has programs in boxes and we all know how much most guys like boxes.
 
I liked the idea of pining apps once I changed how I thought to use programs on Windows 7. That was one of the transition phases I had to go through. But I regularly use the same 7 apps over and over. And I like how some of them allow you to open a recent list of files via right click. ie. Right Clicking Photoshop will bring up a jump-list of the last 5 or so psd files you opened.
 
I hate windows 8 and I will also be sticking to windows 7 until windows 9 doesn't come out.
 
trk2 said:
For those of you who pin apps in Windows 7, may I ask why you do so over enabling the quick launch toolbar?

I found pinning to clutter up the task bar and make it more difficult to determine which applications are running. I only ran Win7 for about 30 minutes before I searched how to enable the quick launch toolbar so I'm wondering if I just didn't use it long enough to see the advantage.
Click to expand...

I user both.

My every day without fail apps are in quick launch.

My every now and then apps are pinned to the start menu.
 
trk2 said:
For those of you who pin apps in Windows 7, may I ask why you do so over enabling the quick launch toolbar?

I found pinning to clutter up the task bar and make it more difficult to determine which applications are running. I only ran Win7 for about 30 minutes before I searched how to enable the quick launch toolbar so I'm wondering if I just didn't use it long enough to see the advantage.
Click to expand...

I pin the all of the stuff that I constantly use to the task bar. It's not really cluttering anything since the stuff is always running, that's kind of the point of pinning stuff there. And it's no problem seeing was running, the effect is quite noticeable and honestly I don't even know why it matters if it's running or not. If it is then the window pops up, if not the app starts.
 
SkribbelKat said:
Microsoft can make a leaner, faster OS with less code and (potentially) fewer possible mistakes, bugs, or security holes to worry about having to fix later.
Click to expand...
Your post seems a bit tongue-in-cheek (or parts of it, anyway), so I'm not sure if this bit was intended to come off as being serious, but I'm not sure what sort of security vulnerabilities could exist within the current iteration of the Start Menu.
 
MavericK96 said:
Lol, no kidding. Having zero desktop icons is about as silly as having a million of them, IMO. It's there for a reason, use it!

I also use the Start Menu often on Windows 7, so this change in Windows 8 seems silly to me. I'll likely just stick to Win 7, which is fine with me.
Click to expand...

The desktop is for pretty pictures, not clutter. You can set up keyboard shortcuts for programs you need, just like on those bad TV shows where people never use a mouse.
 
So Microsoft removed the start menu because people "stopped" using it. That wouldn't be so bad if the replacement was an improvement for an old-school desktop user. It's not (to me). I like the Windows 7 start menu because it's small and mostly out-of-the-way for those occasions where I need it. The start screen is obtrusive.

Metro should have been a completely separate tablet OS. Trying to mash Metro and the Windows desktop together into a jack-of-all-trades OS is less ideal than optimizing each for a separate platform.
 
"We’d seen the trend in Windows 7," said Chaitanya Sareen, principal program manager at Microsoft, referring to the telemetry gathered by the Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program. "When we evolved the taskbar we saw awesome adoption of pinning [applications] on the taskbar. We are seeing people pin like crazy. And so we saw the Start menu usage dramatically dropping, and that gave us an option. We’re saying 'look, Start menu usage is dropping, what can we do about it? What can we do with the Start menu to revive it, to give it some new identity, give it some new power?"
Click to expand...

Riight, I just use the desktop shortcuts, and where are they getting this information from, I'd like my privacy back, thanks.

And as the old saying goes "if it ain't broken, don't fix it!".
 
face2palm said:
Well if "noobies" don't use the Start menu then why the fuck would so called "power users" be using it?
Shouldn't the l33t power users being using jumplists/keyboard short cuts?

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

this.

hit start button on keyboard, type, hit enter

the EXACT same thing you do in windows 7

the start menu is for noobs
 
wonderfield said:
What data are you looking at?
Click to expand...

Just search. The money isn't bad but quite insubstantial to Apple as a whole and the real benefit to Apple is the large app library sells iDevices. Sure the Windows Store is a revenue stream for Microsoft but in the end it's going to benefit 3rd parties in terms of direct money more than Microsoft, just like the App Store.

And that's the key here. It's not what Microsoft makes, its what 3rd party developers can make. It's a new opportunity for people to make money that they haven't had and I welcome anyone that provides opportunities for others to make money, which is the key reason why I like Apple's App Store.
 
Haw, when you're gonna shovel bullshit, get in there with both hands and heave.

Some Microsoft insider, I can't confirm it, nobody can, said that they were told from up high to make the PC version of windows 8 like this because they wanted to sell tablets and other portable devices that used this same interface. Since PC's control 95% of the market, they figured they could -FORCE- PC users to use Windows 8, get used to the interface, and when they have finally gotten used to the interface, they'll be more inclined to buy other windows devices with the same interface.

There is in no way, shape or form for the users benefit. This was designed simply to sell tablets/smart devices, nothing more, nothing less.

Least now we know two things, there is two breeds of developers that can survive with their heads shoved up their own asses, Bioware dev's who say their games are fine when everyone hates them, and Microsoft dev's that say Windows 8 is fine when everyone hates it.
 
wonderfield said:
Your post seems a bit tongue-in-cheek (or parts of it, anyway), so I'm not sure if this bit was intended to come off as being serious, but I'm not sure what sort of security vulnerabilities could exist within the current iteration of the Start Menu.
Click to expand...

I'm _always_ at least a little bit tongue in cheek since being super-serious in a forum spoils the fun. But yeah, I don't really know either if there's a way to exploit the OS through the interface. What I'm implying is that it just sort of raises the odds of there being mistakes. Moar code means moar places for those buggies to sneak in and cause problems that require patching later. It also bloats up the OS a little to include more of anything.

What makes me sort of excited about Windows 8 is less of the interface junk and more of the internal optimizations in memory management and general improvements that make it running on the same hardware as Window 7 or Vista a more responsive user experience.

I can learn any old interface so as long as it lets me get my computery type chores done I'm happy. What I can't do is make the OS manage memory better or more efficiently organize and retrieve data from mass storage. That's up to the people who build it and I'm glad to see them focusing on those aspects during the design.
 
wonderfield said:
That is the Start Menu.
Click to expand...

It's also exactly how the Start Screen works.

haunter said:
this.

hit start button on keyboard, type, hit enter

the EXACT same thing you do in windows 7

the start menu is for noobs
Click to expand...

And that's really the most fascinating thing about the Start Screen controversy. People go on and on about how inefficient it is but then I'm thinking how efficient is can it possibly be scrolling through a long hierarchal list of things. When did scrolling through long hierarchal lists with a mouse become efficient?
 
ShamisOMally said:
Haw, when you're gonna shovel bullshit, get in there with both hands and heave.

Some Microsoft insider, I can't confirm it, nobody can, said that they were told from up high to make the PC version of windows 8 like this because they wanted to sell tablets and other portable devices that used this same interface. Since PC's control 95% of the market, they figured they could -FORCE- PC users to use Windows 8, get used to the interface, and when they have finally gotten used to the interface, they'll be more inclined to buy other windows devices with the same interface.

There is in no way, shape or form for the users benefit. This was designed simply to sell tablets/smart devices, nothing more, nothing less.

Least now we know two things, there is two breeds of developers that can survive with their heads shoved up their own asses, Bioware dev's who say their games are fine when everyone hates them, and Microsoft dev's that say Windows 8 is fine when everyone hates it.
Click to expand...

There was a debate about this at Microsoft from the rumors that Microsoft insiders have spread. Remember, there was a competing idea of Microsoft's tablet strategy known as Courier that would have been a separate non-Windows device, basically a mobile OS like iOS and Android. So obviously the powers that be got their way with Windows 8.

But let's not forget that Windows on tablets has been around a LONG time. Windows 8 is in a way nothing more than what the Tablet PC should have been a decade ago. The notion that someone just forced Metro into Windows 8 isn't really true either because getting a full desktop on tablets has been a long-term goal for Microsoft, they just never made the changes to the UI to do it because anybody knows that this sort of change isn't going to be popular at first.

But it's absolutely right thing to do in my mind because where do you take Windows it remains a keyboard and mouse only OS? You say that Metro has no benefit to customers, it will have benefit to people who want to have hybrid devices and not be constrained to mice and keyboards and still use Windows.

Windows simply has no where to go remaining a keyboard and mouse only driven OS.
 
heatlesssun said:
Just search.
Click to expand...
...

SkribbelKat said:
What I'm implying is that it just sort of raises the odds of there being mistakes. Moar code means moar places for those buggies to sneak in and cause problems that require patching later. It also bloats up the OS a little to include more of anything.
Click to expand...
While true, security vulnerabilities are more likely in the Start Screen with its support for loading remote data within Live Tiles and JavaScript execution. So we're talking about getting rid of one thing and replacing it with another thing (with its associated code and opportunity for error as a result of that code) and an increase in potential vulnerabilities due to the nature of the that thing.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
The desktop is for pretty pictures, not clutter. You can set up keyboard shortcuts for programs you need, just like on those bad TV shows where people never use a mouse.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are being sarcastic, but:

1) If you weren't meant to put shortcuts on the desktop then you wouldn't have the ability to do so.

2) Having anything on the desktop != "clutter"
 
I also have my start menu on the left side since I can sacrifice more space there and gain some vertical pixels back. And the whole app pinning system works so well with that orientation. With the previews and extra commands available through right-clicking.
 
"Its just the next evolution of windows, its for your own good"

Newsflash, start menu worked, and worked well. There is no other reason to get rid of it other then for some giant money making purpose.

Windows 7 when it boots first time, it loads up 700-800MB in extra bullshit. I simply go into options, turn it off, reboot, and done.

Why can't I be given this option in windows 8? I don't fucking believe their "Its too hard to program" excuse cause that's fucking bullshit. People are coding Playstation 2 emulators -BLINDLY- based off incomplete technical documents on the hardware, and these are guys doing it in their basements for fucking free, and you're telling me that Microsoft with -BILLIONS- of dollars, can't find the "means" to give me classic windows interface in Windows 8?

If you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you.
 
MavericK96 said:
Perhaps you are being sarcastic, but:

1) If you weren't meant to put shortcuts on the desktop then you wouldn't have the ability to do so.

2) Having anything on the desktop != "clutter"
Click to expand...

Somewhat sarcastic, yes. Though, I really would never plop any icons on my desktop. Not even that filthy recycle bin. I do use keyboard shortcuts.
 
fdiaz78 said:
I remember reading about how Windows 7 beta as one of the most downloaded betas ever. I don't hear the same for the Windows 8 preview. I have zero interest in Windows 8 in its current form. MS has a potential Windows Me/Vista disaster on their hands. Enterprise won't embrace Windows 8 unless its on tablets. What are they thinking?
Click to expand...

Seems to me more like a Windows Bob than ME or Vista :)
 
LeninGHOLA said:
:confused: I don't have anything pinned to my taskbar.
Click to expand...
Neither do I, which is exactly why no Start Menu really pisses me off. I hate cluttered backgrounds and task bars with a passion, which is everything that Windows 8 is. I use the Start Menu almost exclusively because things are neat and organized with a nice little search box to quickly get to what I want.
 
ShamisOMally said:
Newsflash, start menu worked, and worked well. There is no other reason to get rid of it other then for some giant money making purpose.
Click to expand...

The Start Menu works well enough with keyboards and mice but nothing else. And sure, the idea is sell more copies of Windows. Many are making the point that dropping the Start Menu will sell fewer copies of Windows, that it's in Microsoft's economic interests to keep the Start Menu. I have no idea how one would make the case to keep the Start Menu and sell fewer copies of Windows because that's in customers best interests.
 
DrDoug said:
What would have been nice is if MS would have added categories to the Start Menu so that when you are installing software the OS would select a default category (Desktop Publishing, Games, Internet Applications for example) to install it under, with the option to change or even create a new category. I set up all new systems this way and my customers love it. Every time I service their systems I reorganize their Start Menu for them, which they appreciate. Some of my customers have had me show them how to do it themselves so they can keep their Start Menu neat and organized.

A well organized Start Menu works for my customers and they use it. IMO this would have been a better move.
Click to expand...

That sounds like just how Linux behaves when you install something new, it just falls right into it proper category.
 
To the people who feel like they must still have the Start button, honest question.

Do you also believe that in 10, 20, 30, etc years from now you will still need the Start button?

The Start button was invented around 1995 with Windows 95 and the concept hasn't changed much since then. Who's to say that the choice made in 1995 is still the best way to design a UI in 2012? Surely computers and users have changed a lot since then and there must be better ways to navigate and use a computer.

Are we really saying that we have to stick with the Start button concept simply because people are used to it? Perhaps the Start button was a bad design choice made back in 1995. We have to stick with it because it's "convention"?

At what point do designers get to innovate and break away from the old methods and work on finding new and improved and more efficient ways to use a computer? Surely they didn't get it 100% right on the first try back in 1995...

How are we to ever improve computer usability if we just keep adopting the old methods simply because "that's how it's been done in the past."

How do we know there isn't a better way to do it if we don't even get the chance to try?

For the people who really don't want to learn or try a new way, that's perfectly fine and they can stick with Windows 7. Nobody is forcing them to upgrade. Their copy of Windows 7 doesn't magically become less useful when Windows 8 comes out.

But do those users really believe that just because they dont like a chance that Microsoft should stop innovation and allow nobody to get a new UI? Thats seems somewhat selfish IMHO.

I have been using Windows 8 since February and I have really come to like the new start screen. Of course it takes getting used to, but any change (even good) will take getting used to. I would rather see them try new designs and ideas than be stuck with the old concepts forever and ever.

That's the way I see it at least.
 
This is like the Up arrow in Windows Explorer. Microsoft will spend the next two versions insisting that you don't need it, then on the third version they'll proudly announce, "we've added this great new feature" as if they've done you a favour.

The Start menu isn't the only thing they've removed from Windows 8 - the dialog box to change the system fonts is also gone. Microsoft clearly believe they know which font you want better than you do, so there's no need to give you the choice...
 
schizrade said:
Really? That was the most handy thing from Vista/7.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree. Why would anyone want their most used applications more than 1 mouse click away? Hiding them away in menus needing multiple mouse clicks to get to or multiple keyboard presses to find or cluttering up the screen with icons.

Quick launch was the old way to launch applications easily with 1 click and it was good. But that wasn't optimal because once you launched the application you had the running copy and still a quick-link to the application taking up space.

Pinning to the task-bar combined these functions in a great way. Launching the first copy of the program and resuming use of an existing copy is now the same button. If you want to launch another instance of a pinned and running app just middle-click it.
 
WaltC said:
I pin a few things to the task bar--but my task bar is also positioned at the top of my screen instead of the bottom--holdover from my Amiga workbench years...;) I only pin browser icons, calculator, libraries and the media-player icon there. For these things I like to pin because a pinned application takes only one mouse click to run as opposed to two...;)
Click to expand...

Took me forever to get to the calculator when I first used W7. What was so hard about Start/ Accessories/Calculator? I couldn't find it anywhere. Then someone told me to use Search. So what is faster, three clicks drilling down in the start menu or opening search and typing out Calculator? Honestly with W7 even finding things using the start menu is crazy since they seemed to take a page from the Wal Mart handbook "lets move everything around so people have to spend days finding what the used to be able to walk straight to" by "reorganizing" everything into places it doesn't make any sense to be. I will probably be even more lost once W8 is put on everything by our IT admin.
 
I need to get to shit fast. I have Apps pinned all the way across my taskbar.
The only time I need the start menu is to dig for something I rarely use.
Granted they could have left it in but damn you guys act like the raped your little sister.
Searching from the Metro UI is ridiculously fast.

Some of you say I don't pin anything to my start menu...so you like having to drill down to find stuff?

I give MS credit for trying something new and risky.
 
SirMaster said:
Perhaps the Start button was a bad design choice made back in 1995.
Click to expand...
It certainly was a significant upgrade to what was in 3.11. I don't think anyone would accuse it of being a bad design choice in '95.

If you try to look at the Start Screen objectively, there are both improvements and shortcomings. An improvement would be Live Tiles: you can present more information on them, and that can be useful. A shortcoming would be the way search results are sub-categorized and require additional clicks/keypresses to access in comparison to the Start Menu. Another potential shortcoming would be the inability to maintain access on open windows and/or the desktop when using the Start Screen, since the desktop becomes completely occluded.

On the whole, I don't believe most users stand to benefit from the Start Screen. It's a step forward for touch, but I don't think it's a step forward in other respects.
 
jedijeb said:
Took me forever to get to the calculator when I first used W7. What was so hard about Start/ Accessories/Calculator? I couldn't find it anywhere. Then someone told me to use Search. So what is faster, three clicks drilling down in the start menu or opening search and typing out Calculator? Honestly with W7 even finding things using the start menu is crazy since they seemed to take a page from the Wal Mart handbook "lets move everything around so people have to spend days finding what the used to be able to walk straight to" by "reorganizing" everything into places it doesn't make any sense to be. I will probably be even more lost once W8 is put on everything by our IT admin.
Click to expand...

Winkey + r, type "calc", hit enter, profit?
 
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