why have all the WOW killers failed?

arentol said:
Your first MMORPG is almost always 10 times more addicting than any subsequent MMORPG. The 10 million or so people that were sufficiently into videogames to play WoW, but no so into them as to have played MMORPGs before have now had their first MMORPG experience.
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I dont agree with this at all. Quite the opposite; the new MMO experience is addicting regardless of how many you've played before.

I started with Daoc, and damn that was addicting. Played it heavily for ~2 years.

Then I played SWG for its first year, and even that was fun for a while. I hologrinded with the rest of em. Then WoW. After (years of) WoW I played EVE for a year. And that can also be addicting in a different way. EVE draws you in. And now I'm back casually playing WoW and planning to play Cataclysm.

So the addiction factor has nothing to do with what came before, or comes later, it has to do with what you are playing *now*. In a few years those 10 million people that started with WoW, the gateway drug, will instead be hooked on the shiny new MMO. All that remains is for someone to create a WoW killer.
 
As long as way keeps adding content I don't see it dying for a long long time. Diablo 2 would be going even stronger if they added some new shit more than once every 5 years .
 
refraxion said:
I agree, a lot of people who play WoW have never touched War1/2. War2 is arguably the best of the three WarCraft RTS' IMO. I don't know why they deviated from all that darkness when they shifted to War3. Sigh.
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I admittedly got into the WarCraft universe at WC3. But that game alone (and TFT) was so expansive and involving that a lot of WoW was/is a continuation of those stories. It's also interesting to read up on some lore that I'm not familiar with, but is involved with WoW.
 
Ritorix said:
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After (years of) WoW I played EVE for a year. And that can also be addicting in a different way. EVE draws you in. And now I'm back casually playing WoW and planning to play Cataclysm.
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What drew you away from EVE?
 
refraxion said:
I agree, a lot of people who play WoW have never touched War1/2. War2 is arguably the best of the three WarCraft RTS' IMO. I don't know why they deviated from all that darkness when they shifted to War3. Sigh.
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I initially didn't like Warcraft 3 either. I remember playing War2 and remembering the ability "Blizzard" wrecking house on things. Then when I heard about a Warcraft 3 hero having that ability, I was like "A hero has that!? Man, this game is going to be awesome."

Then I played it. Man did it felt terrible going from Starcraft to Warcraft 3. It was a truly bad feeling, units took forever to kill, you couldn't have an insane number of units on the map since it was 3D, and therefore the unit cap was terribly low. I've grown to like it over the years but it's still nothing compared to Starcraft. As far as Warcraft 2 though, I only played that briefly.
 
PornoSatan said:
I initially didn't like Warcraft 3 either. I remember playing War2 and remembering the ability "Blizzard" wrecking house on things. Then when I heard about a Warcraft 3 hero having that ability, I was like "A hero has that!? Man, this game is going to be awesome."

Then I played it. Man did it felt terrible going from Starcraft to Warcraft 3. It was a truly bad feeling, units took forever to kill, you couldn't have an insane number of units on the map since it was 3D, and therefore the unit cap was terribly low. I've grown to like it over the years but it's still nothing compared to Starcraft. As far as Warcraft 2 though, I only played that briefly.
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Warcraft is meant to play quite different than Starcraft. It would be boring if it played exactly the same, but with elves and orcs.
 
eurin said:
Warcraft is meant to play quite different than Starcraft. It would be boring if it played exactly the same, but with elves and orcs.
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Warcraft 2 and Starcraft both being 2D played the same, relative to Warcraft 3. Warcraft 3 plays at a MUCH slower pace due to it being 3D, since it was adapted around the technology available at the time.
 
Krenum said:
Because other games don't have this.


Ktarian_game_graphics.jpg
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Nice! You have to be a real fan of TNG to post and get this.
 
I tried wow when it was first released and I couldn't get into it but it turns out it was probably due to me picking a shaman as my first toon because 5 years later I have 6 lvl 80 toons and I still can't get a shaman past lvl 20 no matter how many times I try. I did try SWG after I dropped wow at first and played that until they decided to completely change the game and kill both classes that I played in the process. I also played city of heroes and EQ2 and honestly after trying all that and not being able to get hooked by any of those games I decided to give wow another try and I've been playing it ever since.

It is simply lot more "fluid" than anything else and you don't have to be a hardcore raider to enjoy it either. There is so much stuff that you can do without ever really doing even one major raid.If you don't want to pvp you don't have to, if you do there are servers for that.Nothing is being forced on you, you simply do as you please and that is a big part of its success.

On another note I do hope someone releases something that's even close to being as fun as wow is because I really do want to give another game a chance and I can't wait to see what Star Trek online is going to be like.
 
I'm playing both EVE and WOW - Blizzard took a game and molded it to their customer base, their insight into what MMO is is extraordinary and their success with WoW is not likely to be recreated by anyone - including themselves. That said it is a fun, but pedestrian game. EVE is hard to get into coming from WoW as the game is intense, the possibility for loss is there from the outset and the learning curve is Himalayan in comparison. But with the right conditions it can be even more rewarding than WoW - the key is the community. If you are in a good corp that is active and likes to teach your chances of staying are good. With EVE you have chance/goal to fight in huge battles that require coordination that makes a WoW 40 man raid seem like the "hokey pokey". Again the games are not targeted at the same audience the same way

WoW - Classical Conditioning
EVE - Operant Conditioning
 
Kaldskryke said:
What drew you away from EVE?
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Eve didnt draw me in at first. I did the trial, had no clue what was going on, and didnt even try it again for a few months. The second time it got me. At the peak I was doing nightly fleet battles as part of an ongoing war. Basically the length and intensity of a WoW raiding schedule, but pvp (with consequences). That sort of pvp experience is just unmatched in any other game. You really felt like part of the war machine. It also had a lot of "hurry up and wait" just like the real military. Fly around for hours, have a quick brutal fleet battle, followed by more waiting around.

I find it difficult to go from playing a game at high intensity to playing it casually, so at some point I just stopped. By the time I tried WoW again it was a very different game from what I played the first few years of release, so I've been able to play it casually. Hoping to keep it that way (new patch today, Icecrown instances, cross-server dungeons, blahblah).
 
Like the others have said, because they are WoW Clones and not WoW Killers. I've got a bunch of time invested in my character, I have a great guild, and have many internet friends as well as real life friends I play the game with. Why would I dump all that and start all over on a new game that is simply a poor imitation?

On a side note, today's patch added three new dungeons and a new raid. New content is something else Blizz gets well, and few other MMOs have successfully pulled off.
 
PornoSatan said:
Warcraft 2 and Starcraft both being 2D played the same, relative to Warcraft 3. Warcraft 3 plays at a MUCH slower pace due to it being 3D, since it was adapted around the technology available at the time.
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That's not even remotely why it's slower. I can't even fathom where you would get that idea.

It's slower because Blizzard wanted to change the RTS tendency of 90% base management and 10% unit control to be flipped around. WC3 is slower with tougher units and a lower cap so that you can actually use strategy instead of simply out-producing and throwing mass upon mass which was epitomized in Starcraft.

Starcraft devolved into everyone playing $$$BIGGAMEHUNTARZZZ$$$ and turtling up while sending 100+ units at a time to attack a main base. That's not strategy.

WC3 attempted to create an environment where even casual players would be rewarded micromanaging, whereas in Starcraft, micromanaging one or two zerglings out of 48 for a 1.5 second advantage has no meaning. Blizzard specifically stated that in WC3 they wanted "every unit to count." Whether it was successful or not is up for debate. I don't think it was very successful simply due to people not adopting and accepting its gameplay nearly as well as they did with WC2/Starcraft.
 
Gott said:
I don't think SWTOR can fail.
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No I am sure it will be a huge hit. Its got a name behind it. And a humongous fan base. Also anyone who played KOTOR will surely want to play it.
 
InorganicMatter said:
Like the others have said, because they are WoW Clones and not WoW Killers. I've got a bunch of time invested in my character, I have a great guild, and have many internet friends as well as real life friends I play the game with. Why would I dump all that and start all over on a new game that is simply a poor imitation?

On a side note, today's patch added three new dungeons and a new raid. New content is something else Blizz gets well, and few other MMOs have successfully pulled off.
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WoW is hardly anything "new/different." When it came out there was nothing new to it, just things pulled from other mmo's and polished/shaped around Warcraft.

As far as updates go, imo no other mmo has came close update wise as Asherons Call did back in the day. having updates which changed the world and thing shappening in it (IE story updates which were seen in the world as well as smaller things such as Seasons like winter).

Most mmo's follow the more >update to expansion and charge for it along with a few smaller free updates that might add a dungeon or someothing but not a big overarching world change which are generlaly reserved for expansions to make money.
 
Stiler said:
WoW is hardly anything "new/different." When it came out there was nothing new to it, just things pulled from other mmo's and polished/shaped around Warcraft.

As far as updates go, imo no other mmo has came close update wise as Asherons Call did back in the day. having updates which changed the world and thing shappening in it (IE story updates which were seen in the world as well as smaller things such as Seasons like winter).

Most mmo's follow the more >update to expansion and charge for it along with a few smaller free updates that might add a dungeon or someothing but not a big overarching world change which are generlaly reserved for expansions to make money.
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You may be right but when was the last time you really saw something new and totally original from the gaming development community? I mean you even have Curt Schilling jumping on the cookie cutter MMO band wagon! Its all about who does it the best and at this point, Blizzard has the capital and resources to continue to hire the best in the business from development to marketing to keep a 6 year game relevent. Not an easy thing to do with all the options out there.

You're right again, overall expansions are made to generate revenue, with nothing more than a few additions to an already fleshed out game. But this time I think we have the real thing. This latest expansion may be the first real "expansion" pack worthy to don the title. The entire world is being redone, in essence almost re-creating the entire gaming experience from an esthetics and mechanic perspective.
 
Because Blizzard has the time, resource, and company beliefs to wait to release a game until it's finished and polished.

No other MMO really has done that. All of the past few hyped MMOs have fallen flat on their faces due to buggy, unfinished crap. WAR, AoC, etc etc etc
 
Rofl-Mic-Lofl said:
Because Blizzard has the time, resource, and company beliefs to wait to release a game until it's finished and polished.

No other MMO really has done that. All of the past few hyped MMOs have fallen flat on their faces due to buggy, unfinished crap. WAR, AoC, etc etc etc
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agreed on the company beliefs part. Just look at how buggy the MoH is....EA wanted to get it out the door so fast and before CoD:CO that they didnt bother to cross the T's and dot the I's...they're not getting my $60 bucks.
 
TDORIO said:
agreed on the company beliefs part. Just look at how buggy the MoH is....EA wanted to get it out the door so fast and before CoD:CO that they didnt bother to cross the T's and dot the I's...they're not getting my $60 bucks.
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? Can we not bring MoH in a thread about MMO's?


WoW remains the leading MMORPG because it continues to expand and Deathwing is really frigging cool.
 
TDORIO said:
agreed on the company beliefs part. Just look at how buggy the MoH is....EA wanted to get it out the door so fast and before CoD:CO that they didnt bother to cross the T's and dot the I's...they're not getting my $60 bucks.
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Wah wah, the MP is not as bad as everyone makes it.like everyone said before, WoW is what it is, because blizzard is a great company that makes solid games. I patiently wait for diablo 3 :)
 
because WoW is generic like Mcdonalds. Generic with a huge built in audience. There's no room for competition. If an MMO even tried to deviate from the formula at this point it wouldnt stand a chance. If an MMO copies WoW then it's a WoW clone. Catch 22.
 
tuaarita said:
? Can we not bring MoH in a thread about MMO's?


WoW remains the leading MMORPG because it continues to expand and Deathwing is really frigging cool.
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I was making a point about quality control so my ref applies....swish!

Amen to that dude....!
 
xFuryofFivex said:
Wah wah, the MP is not as bad as everyone makes it.like everyone said before, WoW is what it is, because blizzard is a great company that makes solid games. I patiently wait for diablo 3 :)
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Yeah I can't wait for D]I[, and I don't mind waiting for quality.
 
Why does anything have to be a wow killer? I don't recall anyone marketing their games as such. I started playing MMO's when you only needed thousands of subscribers to be successful. That hasn't changed.
Hell, WWII Online is still going strong over a decade with only 10k subs. Back in the Day Everquest was the dominating MMO with over 400k subs. You don't need a lot to be a success.
And for me to call a game successful I simply have to enjoy it. I don't care how many people play it for it has no effect on my enjoyment of a game.
 
Archer75 said:
Why does anything have to be a wow killer? I don't recall anyone marketing their games as such. I started playing MMO's when you only needed thousands of subscribers to be successful. That hasn't changed.
Hell, WWII Online is still going strong over a decade with only 10k subs. Back in the Day Everquest was the dominating MMO with over 400k subs. You don't need a lot to be a success.
And for me to call a game successful I simply have to enjoy it. I don't care how many people play it for it has no effect on my enjoyment of a game.
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No question about it, however its kinda fun to speculate which up and coming MMO may be the one to knock off WoW. But you're right, there are plenty of successful, smaller MMOs. EQ and DAOC are excellent examples of that.
 
piscian18 said:
because WoW is generic like Mcdonalds. Generic with a huge built in audience. There's no room for competition. If an MMO even tried to deviate from the formula at this point it wouldnt stand a chance. If an MMO copies WoW then it's a WoW clone. Catch 22.
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Stupid analogy. Wendy's and Burger King are equally common and generic and simultaneously much better. Plus, nobody actually likes McDonalds over the age of 10, they eat it because its a convenient way to satisfy an everyday need. Gaming is not an everyday need.

I'll tell you why the WoW killers failed: they were all fucking terrible. Cheap knockoffs, nothing more.
 
TDORIO said:
I was making a point about quality control so my ref applies....swish!

Amen to that dude....!
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I get that but it just came off as off-topic rant. ;)



Downloading "WoW-3.3.x-to-4.0.0-patch-EU"...
3.13 GB of 5.29 GB - About 3 hours.
 
I tried Aion the first 6 months it was out. Nice looking game, had a lot of depth to it, but it was Time Spent > Skill with horrific amounts of grinding and I realized I could never keep up with the kiddies who spend the whole day or afternoon or evening playing/botting the game.
 
This question is really more complex then how people look at it.

First of all, what is a "wow killer" and how many "wow killers" have there actually been? To me there hasn't really been any attempted "wow killers." LOTR was one and another in the upcoming SWTOR, and I guess Blizzards new MMO in preliminary development.

Aion - smaller budget, more Asian centric game style then mass oriented, unknown IP
AOC - much smaller budget, less mainstream IP (how long has it been since Conan was on anyones mind?), much smaller development studio
Eve - less popular genre, less mainstream gameplay, unknown IP, low budget

Just like not every FPS being released is really going for the "COD killer" title, the same applies to MMOs.

Also Wows success is due to a lot of factors aligning perfectly, including a "snowball" type effect, not just the intrinsic qualities of the game. I feel it is highly unlikely any future MMO receives WoWs level of success relatively. There might eventually be one with more subscribers (due to the growing mmo market), but not in terms of market share relative to other MMOs. Even Blizzard has stated they do not believe they can replicate WoWs success in that way.
 
Here's the real truth on why WoW killers failed:

WoW's initial success was brought about by it's hardcore fanbase and reputation with Starcraft, Diablo, and Warcraft. Battle.net was the prime gaming place to be if you weren't playing Quake or Counter Strike basically. World of Warcraft was at the right place at the right time, and with the right company that had a good reputation. MMO's were still an odd thing that everyone saw as weird, like when you heard about the Everquest nerds, but Blizzard made them accessible to everyone with the help of their initial fanbase of their previous games.

Diablo, Starcraft, and Warcraft 2 were wildly popular back then if you were a PC gamer, so when your gaming company made an MMO it was worth trying out, they had the reputation, you knew if they made something it would be good. So with the combined efforts of the battle.net people it slowly snowballed from there. Over the years it's been spreading to people now who haven't even played PC games before, or even heard of Blizzard.

That's how it all got started.

The reason WoW killers fail to take market share NOW is because:

- They're poorly made
- Company that made it has no reputation
- Have high system requirements, while still being artistically stale. Bland textures, poor animations, etc.
- Compatibility problems, general UI problems, simple things that make you think the game was rushed
- Poor technical support
- Some feel like money grabs
- Some didn't even have end game content when they were released (contrary to popular belief WoW was released with Onyxia and Molten Core, not to mention psuedo-raids like UBRS, Scholo, Strat that were 10-15 man at the time)
- And a big point is people already have so much time invested into WoW it's not worth switching unless it's a truly great game, which likely won't come unless it's from Blizzard themselves. People have family/friends that play WoW so making the switch might be awkward to them.

Blizzard planned WoW pretty close to perfectly, if you ever read the back of your Diablo 2 manual you'll see they thank Everquest, because Diablo 2 was kind of Blizzard getting their toes wet with trying to make a pseudo-MMO type game. With the success of D2 they knew they would get the green light to make a real MMO.



:edit:

I think Blizzard is starting to slip though with Starcraft 2's Battle.net 2.0. Battle.net 2.0 is a big step back from the original Battle.net. It also doesn't feel integrated deeply within the game like it did with the Diablos and Warcrafts, like it's a seperate interface. It's lacking many simple functions (when I used it) like chat rooms, you couldn't look at someone's record unless you added them as a friend, whispering was more difficult, felt poorly made, interface wasn't very intuitive, and many other things I don't remember. All in all Battle.net 2.0 is pretty amateur and felt rushed. Not to mention stupid little "make you feel better" things like achievements and divisions. Also, compare Starcraft 2's ladder and user statistics page and ease of use and accessibility with Warcraft 3's, and you'll know what I mean. I don't like the road it's going and will do my best to avoid it.

It might just be me but I think Blizzard is passed their prime now since World of Warcraft. Although I haven't played the campaign of Starcraft 2 I did play the MP alot during beta, and it was fun; but it really was nothing new (as intended ofcourse trying to keep with the spirit of the original, but still), and the implementation of Battle.net 2.0 was horrible. I'm thinking Diablo 3 will carry along and become popular mostly because of Blizzards reputation, but I don't see them blowing away the gaming world with their games like they did with Starcraft, Diablo, and Warcraft 2.
 
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^ Most of the people that made Blizzard so special back in the day are gone.. I think its mostly the group of WoW people now that are still developing the other 2 games.. as far as I know.
 
I think its because Blizzard makes quality games and really did there home work with what was wrong with MMO's during beta and what was right and copied it. Plus WoW had a good back story with previous games to play and enjoy .. they built the universe long before WoW came along.

I think people love the simple design of the game (even in the original vanilla state) it just invites you to play , have fun and that makes it easier to blow more time on it. Throw in the social aspect and the fact that Blizzard has millions of fans across the world with its games and its a formula you can't beat.

Other MMOs have failed due to countless reason but the big ones in my mind are :

1.Lack of design , meaing poorly thought out story , good graphics but horrible art direction (WoW has fantastic art direction which means more than good graphics).

2. Poorly designed class systems , so many MMOs copy the same design then fuck it up with there own supposed "different" flavor. These original class designs work for a reason.

3.Lack of content , WoW shipped with an ass load of content even though its raid system wasn't fully up and running it was after about 2-3 months. But even without it you had other systems in place that kept people entertained and glued to leveling.

4. Lack of world size , So many MMO's have tiny worlds even compared to WoW. And some have massive worlds that are just copy and pastes of every other zone and lacking any content.

I think one of the most promising MMOs was Age of Conan and it was great until you hit level 30 then its like the game developers forgot what to do , the quests vanished , there were maybe 2 total instances you could level in except they were "Live" instances that you had to share with others /facepalm. Also you didn't have any items or armor to get at that level and beyond .. the content just completely took a nose dive.

Until some developer takes a real good hard look at the state of MMOs , comes along and makes the right choices like Blizzard did , we are gonna continue to get the recycled formula gone wrong over and over again.

Regardless if you hate WoW or not , they did it right and now its stronger than ever.
 
Antonius said:
Sigh, I miss the days of the EQ1 attitude towards MMO gaming.
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While I know you mean that you miss the "challenge" - I played EQ1 back when it was a challenege. In fact most of the challenges were because "The Vision" was all about penalties and not bonuses. My class was fucked for years (Magician) because Brad couldn't fathom how to balance pets and didn't want us stepping on Wizard toes.

I refuse to buy ANYTHING that has his name on it until it has been open at least two years and the reviews are just phenomenal which probably won't be happening soon.
 
i'm gonna just cliffs notes this long, well thought out post I planned on typing up

cliffs

"How to make successful MMO"

1. Create classes and make them stick to their archetypes and have a gradual learning curve the empowers the player, every class has a role and their role should be introduced to the player through a series of quests (class quests like in Vanilla WoW).

2. Create interesting zones, graphics are good and all, but make your zones make sense, have a great layout for them, graphically interesting, with quests that fit the theme of the zones

3. Try to create a decent PVP system (LOTRO is an excellent PVE game, a noteable exception to this) that is as balanced as possible

4. Make the gear interesting and stand out, as your character gains levels and gets gear, he should "feel" more powerful, if that feeling isn't there, then what incentive is there to level and play the game?

5. Content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content, content

without content, you aren't shit

6. I think it's fine to be a WoW clone to a degree, you do have to seperate yourself. I think people would play a WoW clone that offered better content, better gameplay, and better graphics while retaining all of WoW's best elements and gameplay designs.

I really do believe that.

No MMO to date has managed what i said in #6, that's why they fail.
 
I don't like the term "WoW-killer". It's used based on the assumption that a game is being released for little more than that reason and that's the intent of very few developers.

I don't see why it can't just be "another MMO".
 
I play a couple of MMO's right now. Lord of the rings online (Has a great Story to it), WoW and its new to me but some of my friends play "Cabal". Im having a hard time with Cabal tho its pretty cool but is in no way better then LOTR or WoW. It does have a nicer Community then WoW tho
 
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