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why have all the WOW killers failed?

S

sparks

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 19, 2004
Messages
3,206
I can't understand these co's are putting millions into these games and to me they are poor failures to say the least.
Just for example Conan was a pvp game, yea like everyone wanted ....not
others are just a small flash then fail quick after the first week of ohhhhhhh

What is wrong with these people, why do they refuse to follow on what wow does?
will we ever see a successful wow killer?
 
lack of mods crappy game play etc...

WoW does a lot things right people cant seem to copy it very well one of the big ones it runs on damn near any thing
 
WoW caters to the lowest common denominator. That is why it has such broad appeal. Other games have been too specialized or too focused or too demanding. WoW is a big bag of "meh" all the way around. Very balanced.
 
Yes, when blizzard makes their new MMO. The problem is a few things.

1) People don't want hardcore I have to play all day anymore. You don't have the EQ1 attitude toward PvE.
2) People don't want WoW's free loot. Speaking of which it's free loot tuesday.
3) A lot of these MMOs are grinds. Flat out leveling is a grind AoC after about lvl 40, Aion from the beginning, Warhammer from a pvp standpoint. Grindfests HO!
4) Maybe The Old Republic will be good, when's the last time bioware made a bad game?
 
AoC was an unfinished game on release. There were many issues (performance, stability, content, bugs). It had poor reception and thus failed. As a game, I enjoyed playing it. However, for an MMO to do well, it needs more than just gameplay.

WOW is familiar to most people. Many people I knew that played WOW were new to videogames in general. It's more of a social phenomenon in my opinion. Technical aspects aside, a lot of people played WOW because 10 of their friends did. You then make more friends in game. Whenever some of us wanted to try another MMO, it just wasn't the same.
 
WoW is like a Modern Warfare 2 that had dedicated servers.

It caters to your youth who can't be bothered with details and just wants to play a game while socializing, but it also has a more complex component so that nerdcore people can min-max and do all sorts of "strategy" for dungeons and bosses.

Companies tend to do one or the other, it seems, and not both.
 
ONE WORD..... MURLOCS.

murloc_suit.jpg
 
You can't copy WoW to kill it. Why would I leave a game that I'm familiar with, that I have a bunch of friends and contacts in, that I have an established guild in, and that I've invested a ton of time in, just to go play a copy that, lets be honest, is going to be a lesser game? Theres no 'New' MMO that can come out and have as much stability and content as WoW does. Its impossible.

No, I wouldn't leave WoW to play something exactly like it. I would leave WoW for something new though.

All that said, I quit playing WoW about 1.5 years ago. I do miss it sometimes, but I'm avoiding going back to it. The thing that got me to quit was EVE -- a totally different game than WoW. I tried Warhammer, but honestly, it was a WoW clone and I was completely non-thrilled. I mean, why quit WoW to goto Warhammer?

So the way to beat WoW is not to try to copy it, but to be innovative and do something new and different. Only then will you get people away from WoW. The challenge is making something new and innovative that a large majority of people will enjoy.

WoW's success is mostly attributed to Blizzard's awesome game design and dedication to bug busting. On Release, WoW was very clean and had very few bugs. Yes, the servers were overloaded, but thats because no one expected the game to be as popular as it was. But aside from server-side lag issues, there were very few bugs and issues, and the ones that did show up got squashed quickly.

Blizzard does a great job with every game it develops, from Starcraft to WoW, they've always made quality games. Most other games get rushed out the door because the exec's are tired of waiting for their money to start rolling in. An unfinished or buggy game gets released early, rather than spending more time in development and finishing things up. The first impression is key, and if I load up a game full of bugs, I'm not likely to stick around long.

So key #2 to defeating WoW is to spend enough time in development, and release a finished product. Don't release a half-done piece of junk and then 6 months later release a $30 'expansion' that includes all the things you promised to have at release. (I'm looking at you Star Wars Galaxies).
 
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I agree and I bet Blizzard does too. Whatever the new IP is, I would expect it to be the next WoW killer and to be something (to quote python) completely different.
 
I think a lot of these companies (such as funcom) spend a ton of money to get a working engine and some base content developed, and then in the last 2 year stretch they start to keep tabs on everything and try to bring the costs down as they start to pay back their loans. This means corners are cut, release dates are pushed back, and features are removed. Instead they could have thrown millions more into rapid developement, bring in testers and interior level designers, to make a quick return on their investment. Pushing back release dates is going to cost more for less, you're not making any profit, low interest loans are starting to be paid and high interest loans cover the expenses until launch. At launch, bugs slow development, then post-release features get delayed and those features are revisited in later expansion ideas. And noteably as features are cut, you end up with too many similarities to WoW with less things to do ingame.
 
Another thought: A game doesn't have to rival WoW or EQ to be successful. MMOs don't need 11 million subscribers to be considered a success. WoW is the unsurpassable behemoth (and any game company project manager or director who really believes they can beat WoW in terms of player base is an idiot), but there are plenty of still successful MMOs out there with much smaller player bases.
 
Polish. Age of Conan and Warhammer felt clunky. They were released too early, and MMOs crumble on a bad launch. Even if they fix up the games down the road, most don't care enough to give them a 2nd chance.

I skipped Aion, not sure how polished it was, but the grinds sounded like hell.
 
There will never be a wow killer. No MMO will have those kind of numbers again.

It's also very hard to get people to drop a game they have so much time invested in.

Also, most people forget that you don't need wow numbers to have a very successful MMO. These games you call failures are making money and therefore are huge successes for their companies.

Prior to WoW the biggest North American MMO and hugely successful was EQ and it peaked around 550k subs. DAOC and UO around 250k subs. AC around 100k. EQ2 still going strong. All considered massive successes and people still talk about them till this day.
WWII Online is still chugging along with 10k subs and making money.
EVE is still growing and has 300k subs and launches only free expansion packs. They have studios on 3 continents, are developing 3 games. They are involved in magazines and novels and there is talk of TV and movies.

Even after all the negative press people still play SWG. People still play planetside. Vanguard. LOTRO. DDO. You get the idea. Don't let numbers fool you.

You don't need 11 million subs to be successful.
 
This is an easy Q to answer. 1. They try to hard to copy WoW. 2. They think, and/or customers who don't know what they really want, that the easier a game is the more popular it will be. So the market is now flooded with easycore/soloable MMO's and users are getting bored to fast. 3. Lack of immersion. I don't care what 'people' say, gamers want immersion and when your making it super easy to get a ton of easy/good loot, teleport around the world as you wish, hand hold quest etc etc., it doesn't make you feel the world for what it is. I don't really know how to describe it in words, it's just a thought in my mind. MMO's succeed when the players feel like they have to work to get something but are happy when they have it. There's a difference between 'work for something' and 'grind' for something.
 
Krenum said:
Because other games don't have this.


Ktarian_game_graphics.jpg
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That is total win. Wussley Crusher saves the day FTW!

On the original note, WoWs success is based on 1) runs on anything 2) is super easy to play and succeed at 3) has almost no penalties or difficulty. These make it super appealling to a broad base, even those who would not otherwise play an MMO.

Sigh, I miss the days of the EQ1 attitude towards MMO gaming.
 
I really hope SWTOR doesn't suck. Could be a very cool game if they do it right.
 
Not that I still play wow but it was one of my top games longevity wise(My main game for 3+years) and for me it was the fun factor and when it did finally became a grind which it did, I quit. I enjoyed learning more about the lore and wanting the next big loot, leveling and kicking alliances ass, it had a familiar feel to it and I had an idea of what to expect when I played. It just felt right and is still the Best MMORPG EVER in my eyes.
I just don’t have the time for MMORGPs which is a shame because I would really like to play KOTR online and StarTrek online.
 
I think the main reason WoW is successful is that it appeals to both the seasoned and casual playerbase. I mean, if you take a really good look at exactly how Blizz has things set up at the moment (like the gear-up process for example), it's fairly thorough.

And even though the vast majority of the population are casual players that don't give a damn about the game mechanics, the "minority" population is also massive and discuss the game mechanics in depth all the time on the forums. You also have newbie players asking about how to build an effective talent tree, how to gear up (hit cap, AP/spellpower/haste/crit priorities, etc.) and also optimal rotations. These people really have a geniune interest in making their own characters stronger, and want to prepare themselves for endgame content.

On another note that's more universal, WoW is lighthearted all the way around, which makes it very approachable and enjoyable. I don't think most people want a "srs" MMO that has nothing but the cool factor about it. You have goofy stuff happening in WoW all the time which is subtle but can really affect a person's impression about the game.
 
I also think it has to do with the fact that 15 million (or whatever) people have invested hundreds or thousands of hours into WoW and just won't switch to another game.
 
Most people don't want to go back to the EQ method of gaming. Artificial timesinks, crap drop rates, long timers on shared bosses. EQ was one big timesink especially once you started hitting endgame content.

WOW took all of the good parts of EQ, gear, lore, progression and made it possible to do more both solo and with smal groups. Drop rates are guaranteed for certain items, while others are random but not impossibly so. If I ever have to do a quest where the mobs are on a 5-7 day timer and the drop rate is very low such as the Shattered Emerald of Corruption, I will quit the game in a heart beat. I went on so many Plane of Hate raids and killed over 100 mini's before I got that stupid gem. Artificial timesinks suck.
 
Blizzard and CCP are really the only names I trust when looking at MMO's. played WoW since launch but quit almost a year ago. But you can bet I'll be back soon enough to give it another play-through and level a new toon before the new expansion comes out. The only thing really stopping me from playing it has been my schedule.
 
I miss 40 man raid madness. i was never a loot whore, i just enjoyed gaming with friends and doing occasional stupid shit. Like taking over redridge for an hour or something. WoW has changed a lot, but i think most of whats been said already covers it. I guess i'm just saying i agree. It is/was a fun game.
 
I think the big thing that even that Blizzard blurb missed is that there is no secret sauce. There is no single magical idea that will revolutionize MMOs and topple Blizzard's empire. WoW is successful because Blizzard puts a lot of quality development into it. That's it.

A lot of new MMOs have had great ideas, they just never execute particularly well. Edison once said, "Genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration." All these MMOs may have that 1%, but they continually disregard the 99%, either in launch support, at-launch content, or continuing development (both end-game and non-endgame; especially the latter since Blizzard is pretty much the only MMO to put serious development into non-endgame between expansions after an MMO is released).
 
Popular brand names like Harry Potter or Star Wars could be a WoW killer. They have an established fan base. But it also requires execution and planning, two things Blizzard usually does well. The last Star Wars MMO didnt do so hot, the next one might.

I think we will definitely see MMOs of WoW popularity or greater in the future. This is one train thats not going to turn around. More people will become gamers, not less. The first decent MMO on consoles could open up a lot of new customers. Whatever it will be, it will be huge just due to the expanded audience size of consoles vs PC gamers. And to support something that big, it will have to come from one of two companies: Activision/Blizzard, or EA.
 
Antonius said:
That is total win. Wussley Crusher saves the day FTW!

On the original note, WoWs success is based on 1) runs on anything 2) is super easy to play and succeed at 3) has almost no penalties or difficulty. These make it super appealling to a broad base, even those who would not otherwise play an MMO.

Sigh, I miss the days of the EQ1 attitude towards MMO gaming.
Click to expand...

I disagree. There is something else to WoW that keeps people playing it. Easy and accessible things don't hold people for the long run the way that WoW succeeds in holding on to its playerbase. Something about the game's design just seems to be able to successfully disguise or even flip around the fact that it is a tedious grind. It is truly impressive to me that they can make something mundane and repetitive somehow interesting to a large number of human beings on this planet.
 
Mark_Warner said:
WoW caters to the lowest common denominator. That is why it has such broad appeal. Other games have been too specialized or too focused or too demanding. WoW is a big bag of "meh" all the way around. Very balanced.
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Pretty much.

The thing you have to remember that is GOOD games doesn't always equal POPULAR games, these things are completely different. Popular games work on the widest range of systems, they have appeal so anyone can play, they use systems which make you want to keep playing by slowly over time getting the player hooked on achievement like leveling or getting better kit before the "fun" wears off.

As soon as you try and innovate and make something cool/special then it's never going to popular. If you want something a bit more special like for example full PVP and full loot then games like Mortal Online are on the way to cater for that, but no one (including the devs) are under any illusion that it will be very popular at all, it's just not appealing to the average joe.
 
Neurofreeze said:
I think the big thing that even that Blizzard blurb missed is that there is no secret sauce. There is no single magical idea that will revolutionize MMOs and topple Blizzard's empire. WoW is successful because Blizzard puts a lot of quality development into it. That's it.

A lot of new MMOs have had great ideas, they just never execute particularly well. Edison once said, "Genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration." All these MMOs may have that 1%, but they continually disregard the 99%, either in launch support, at-launch content, or continuing development (both end-game and non-endgame; especially the latter since Blizzard is pretty much the only MMO to put serious development into non-endgame between expansions after an MMO is released).
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with that as well. The amount of work that's put into WoW is probably much more than meets the eye. Like for instance, character/mob animations. We don't really think about it actively while playing the game, but it's integral in bringing the world to life. I reckon the design team for animations probably go through several iterations over and over until they come up with something that looks and feels nice. Looking at the animations of several other MMOs out there, it's pretty clear how unpolished the character animations are.
 
Because all of the WoW killers ended up being WoW clones? From similar interfaces to outright stealing of some ideas. WoW is not perfect is does take from other games too, but the amount of crap that resembles WoW from supposedly "WoW killers" is way too much. Why play a game that mimics the original that has way more content?

@gentoo: Haha, I've also stated before that IGN did an interview with Blizzard for the 15th anniversary thing, they also stated not to copy WoW.
 
WOW is even more deeply entrenched than CS is. To be honest I could see WOW getting a massive graphics update at some point. No need to come up with a new game. Just keep adding quests and expanding the world a bit now and again and do a graphics upgrade a some point that remains compatible with the current dated looking game. Can't have the gold farmers and laptop players on integrated graphics needing to upgrade.
 
Posted today on Kotaku.com

Blizzard's World of Warcraft is a hugely successful MMO. So if you are game developer and you want to make a hugely successful MMO, copy WoW, right? Right? Wrong, says WoW.

"There are a lot of people that try to emulate World of Warcraft - and as flattering as that is our end it's definitely not the right move," says Blizzard producer Shane Dabiri in magazine PC Zone.

"I know that World of Warcraft is very successful, and so people think if they were to make another game just like it they could somehow capture that audience. However, I don't think that's what players are looking for.

"Players that have invested time in WOW don't just want to do the same thing in other game - they want to try something completely new and different," he argues.

"I think the industry needs to move in that direction to come up with some innovative new MMOs that are trying really different things. Take City of Heroes - at least that's something that's not a fantasy game."

Man's got a point. There already is WoW. If someone wants to play a World of Warcraft like game, then they'll probably play, well, WoW.
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Blizzard does a lot to keep people playing. When they release an expansion pack they don't release all the content. Instead they slowly push it out dungeon by dungeon and it makes people think, "WOW THEY REALLY GIVES A LOT OF NEW CONTENT HURR HURR." Makes people play longer.
 
I hope they all fail... Then they may change tactics and go for more story oriented single player rpgs :)
 
WoW will only go under once Blizzard decides to shut down the servers for good.

I think the real reason WoW became popular was because from start to finish, it followed Blizzard's business plan when it comes to their games, it'll be released when it's done. While granted they didn't release it in a completely finished state, because there's no way you can launch a MMO 100 percent bug free or even with all the content you have planned for it because you still have to be able to give it fresh updates.

Notice how at first WoW was really hardcore and there was next to no "welfare" at all? It was only later when they stumbled on the idea of turning WoW into a welfare world that it really skyrocketed in popularity.

Just picture this, how would you feel if you hear about WoW a lot but never have played it but your friends do, and one of them tells you,"Hey man, you should join us all in playing this game, it won't take you that long to catch up to us, we'll help you!"

Along the way, you get power leveled, rushed through dungeons for loot, you get in on some high end instancing, and you might even be able to join some really good PVP teams (arena or world, or BG's whatever).

Now take that scenario and multiply it by a couple million and it's easy to see why WoW appeals so much, it was originally a more hardcore and involved game, then Blizzard realized that they were catering to the few with no life, and decided if they wanted to grow, they'd need to cater to the majority who wanted to be handed loot, so that's what they did!

That's why I haven't played WoW in a long time now. That in and of itself doesn't bother me, its just that even if I were to play and get epics and what, then what? There's really nothing left to do. I no longer care if I kill player X even if i'm undergeared (used to be a big thrill) because ever since just before BC hit, there was the start of "flavor of the month classes" and that's about when Blizz started catering to a more broad audience. WIth FotM classes, it makes you want to have more than one character, so you'll always be in the FotM game.

Anyway sorry for the novel here.
 
A mmo needs to give the UO formula a try. That game was so open ended. You could log in and hang out in player run towns and just socialize. The customization of your house puts to shame housing that every newer game as tried. There was so much to do other than just kill monsters or other players.

Imagine the popularity of Sims combined with the popularity of WoW.
 
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