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Were Well into Febuary And...
- Thread starter gist901
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Not true in my opinion.
Almost all rumors point to a modest 15 to 20 percent increase in performance at best. Fermi is more of a card for folding and CUDA than it is for value and gaming in my opinion.
PlatinumPC
Limp Gawd
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If it can be the rumoured 20-30% faster, then that would be pretty big.
Based on the specs though, I wouldn't be surprised if it was more like 40-50% faster.
Based on the specs though, I wouldn't be surprised if it was more like 40-50% faster.
Well even 15 percent over 5870 aint nothing to sneeze at. And you mention folding which it is said that this card will beat all others is PPD due to the way the cores are made. That will sell QUITE a few right there.
It's crazy to think that nvidia has been holding fermi this long. They're letting ATI just cannibalize the market, which is strange considering past card launches. If they can pull 20% over ATI, I think they'll have a monster on their hands, in a good way. I would love to see a few better nvidia midrange cards too.
I own ATI, but I'm not partial. In fact, I'm all for competition, simply because it's great for the market as a whole.
I own ATI, but I'm not partial. In fact, I'm all for competition, simply because it's great for the market as a whole.
YeuEmMaiMai
Extremely [H]
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Can I get an April release date anyone? 
lol
lol
SnowBeast
[H]ard|Gawd
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I keep reading all these threads and posts about nVidia getting cannibalized, beaten, taken down this round, being pushed out of business,etc., ETC. E FREAKIN NOUGH ALREADY!! Every thread against nVidia's Fermi and how they are LOSING THEIR ASSES!! REALLY??? Cause from a business side, it would take ATI "Killing them" on every release for the next 2-3 years to pass Nvidia from what I can tell. HERE, Numbers don't lie:
As a former fanATIc, every card from the first Radeon 64MB, 8500 64MB, 9800XTX, X800Pro, X850XT, and finally the X1950 something was always broke, either within drivers or hardware.(Radeon 9700 Revised silicon anyone? And I still am not convinced the 8500 wasn't broke hardware wise itself.) The point is if ATI didn't have these "problems" the market would be shifted that way. Fact are facts. People in general don't trust ATI still. And after the crap many of us went through with "HotFix" after "Hotfix" from the very first catalyst drivers, its evident this still holds true today.
Even with the 5800 series issue that caused a quick "hotfix" release. Was that in Hardware with a work around? Seems that problem spiked its head early on in Borderlands. (purple screens, random textures missing or flashing.)
Trust me, I want back on Big Reds side with Eyefinity badly. Specillay with nvidia requiring SLI for the same thing. But as someone who went with an 8800GTS 640MB after my X1950, and now an GTX260 216, my computers have been rock stable graphically without the headaches I have had before. And thats why the market is still in favor with Nvidia and why many are holding out and not jumping on to the 5800 series bandwagon.
So many will come on here and tell about not having problems, running perfectly for years, blah blah blah. If that were actually true, the market wouldn't be a 65% Nvidia and 29.95% in a gamers survey that is pretty damn accurate considering any gamer is on Steam.
Point is, leave the "Nvidia getting its ass kicked" mentality at the door. Its just not happening on reputation alone.
As a former fanATIc, every card from the first Radeon 64MB, 8500 64MB, 9800XTX, X800Pro, X850XT, and finally the X1950 something was always broke, either within drivers or hardware.(Radeon 9700 Revised silicon anyone? And I still am not convinced the 8500 wasn't broke hardware wise itself.) The point is if ATI didn't have these "problems" the market would be shifted that way. Fact are facts. People in general don't trust ATI still. And after the crap many of us went through with "HotFix" after "Hotfix" from the very first catalyst drivers, its evident this still holds true today.
Even with the 5800 series issue that caused a quick "hotfix" release. Was that in Hardware with a work around? Seems that problem spiked its head early on in Borderlands. (purple screens, random textures missing or flashing.)
Trust me, I want back on Big Reds side with Eyefinity badly. Specillay with nvidia requiring SLI for the same thing. But as someone who went with an 8800GTS 640MB after my X1950, and now an GTX260 216, my computers have been rock stable graphically without the headaches I have had before. And thats why the market is still in favor with Nvidia and why many are holding out and not jumping on to the 5800 series bandwagon.
So many will come on here and tell about not having problems, running perfectly for years, blah blah blah. If that were actually true, the market wouldn't be a 65% Nvidia and 29.95% in a gamers survey that is pretty damn accurate considering any gamer is on Steam.
Point is, leave the "Nvidia getting its ass kicked" mentality at the door. Its just not happening on reputation alone.
TheBlueChanell
Supreme [H]ardness
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I hope fermi is a monster.
Snowbeast the "Nvidia is Doomed" argument is silly. But nowhere near as silly as quoting steam surveys (A KNOWN base of Nvidia users at large) for a counter.
Valve games normally dont require as much hardware and thus many people on there hold onto hardware longer. Left 4 Dead has been praised for its ability to run fine on older and weaker hardware. To the point where mods can make it run with Atom! Now do more people have Nvidia than ATI? Yes! The 8x and 9x series sold like hotcakes and ATI had serious market issues with the HD 2x series but its not a blowout like the graph suggests.
And the "ATI Driver Bugz, Hardware whatever" blah blah blah is instant fail for an argument and has been for a long time now. Its the lamest excuse ever to be Nvidia when there are many better arguments out there. "Vaue under SLI" etc....
Valve games normally dont require as much hardware and thus many people on there hold onto hardware longer. Left 4 Dead has been praised for its ability to run fine on older and weaker hardware. To the point where mods can make it run with Atom! Now do more people have Nvidia than ATI? Yes! The 8x and 9x series sold like hotcakes and ATI had serious market issues with the HD 2x series but its not a blowout like the graph suggests.
And the "ATI Driver Bugz, Hardware whatever" blah blah blah is instant fail for an argument and has been for a long time now. Its the lamest excuse ever to be Nvidia when there are many better arguments out there. "Vaue under SLI" etc....
YeuEmMaiMai
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as I recall the 9700 kicked some serious ass back in the day.......and i do not ever remember hearing about revised silicon......
Steam survey's also include mobility parts, don't they? And until recently, Nvidia had a huge advantage (ATI has now overtaken them in the discrete graphics market for mobility cards, but Nvidia has been there longer and has more integrated solutions used).
The actual research figures on market share show that ATI to Nvidia is closer to 40 to 60, though I do not know if they've released any figures since the 5800 series came out. 6 months is seriously a long time
The actual research figures on market share show that ATI to Nvidia is closer to 40 to 60, though I do not know if they've released any figures since the 5800 series came out. 6 months is seriously a long time
Wow, I haven't heard that gem before. Care to elaborate?
You're comparing installed base (steam) to sales (market share reports). It will take a while before gains in sales are reflected in installed base.
alg7_munif
Supreme [H]ardness
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I keep reading all these threads and posts about nVidia getting cannibalized, beaten, taken down this round, being pushed out of business,etc., ETC. E FREAKIN NOUGH ALREADY!! Every thread against nVidia's Fermi and how they are LOSING THEIR ASSES!! REALLY??? Cause from a business side, it would take ATI "Killing them" on every release for the next 2-3 years to pass Nvidia from what I can tell. HERE, Numbers don't lie:
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1808/steamol.png
As a former fanATIc, every card from the first Radeon 64MB, 8500 64MB, 9800XTX, X800Pro, X850XT, and finally the X1950 something was always broke, either within drivers or hardware.(Radeon 9700 Revised silicon anyone? And I still am not convinced the 8500 wasn't broke hardware wise itself.) The point is if ATI didn't have these "problems" the market would be shifted that way. Fact are facts. People in general don't trust ATI still. And after the crap many of us went through with "HotFix" after "Hotfix" from the very first catalyst drivers, its evident this still holds true today.
Even with the 5800 series issue that caused a quick "hotfix" release. Was that in Hardware with a work around? Seems that problem spiked its head early on in Borderlands. (purple screens, random textures missing or flashing.)
Trust me, I want back on Big Reds side with Eyefinity badly. Specillay with nvidia requiring SLI for the same thing. But as someone who went with an 8800GTS 640MB after my X1950, and now an GTX260 216, my computers have been rock stable graphically without the headaches I have had before. And thats why the market is still in favor with Nvidia and why many are holding out and not jumping on to the 5800 series bandwagon.
So many will come on here and tell about not having problems, running perfectly for years, blah blah blah. If that were actually true, the market wouldn't be a 65% Nvidia and 29.95% in a gamers survey that is pretty damn accurate considering any gamer is on Steam.
Point is, leave the "Nvidia getting its ass kicked" mentality at the door. Its just not happening on reputation alone.
Steam is accurate? How about this:
Q4 2009: http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases...in-pc-graphics-quarter-to-quarter-also-beats/
Q3 2009: http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases...arket-soars-over-21-says-jon-peddie-research/
You say that like they have a choice.
You did notice he said "a gamer survey" right?
While your links may be more accurate for overall sales, they don't figure in for just gamers. I really don't think many people are gaming on a netbook ,lol.
Sure many other don't but there are many more that do, lol.
People always seem to discredit Steam when others show the stats, but I'll bet that game companies arent discrediting it. Maybe that's part of the problem, they see the Steam suvey and see that there is no need to push games when people are still running some old ass hardware, just a thought, lol.
Just as a funny aside, if you actually look at the steam stats, the higher end cars really do make up an insignificant segment of the market.
If you count the people using gtx275+ , Ati 58xx series cards, its totally trivial, as is sli/crossfire usage.
The vast, vast majority of people use shitty/ancient hardware.
It's easy to forget when we are having these discussions that we talking about an extremely niche segment of the graphics market.
If you count the people using gtx275+ , Ati 58xx series cards, its totally trivial, as is sli/crossfire usage.
The vast, vast majority of people use shitty/ancient hardware.
It's easy to forget when we are having these discussions that we talking about an extremely niche segment of the graphics market.
alg7_munif
Supreme [H]ardness
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Steam doesn't show when the card is bought but they show what card is used. When a company release a good product, the perception of the market can be seen across all products. Mainstream market is where the money being made and if you ignore the Intel integrated poducts, you can see that AMD is gaining on nVidia across the boards.
You can't discredit the accuracy of a statistical sampling of millions of gamers by saying "but i wasn't included". Unless someone can prove that there's selection bias in the profile of people who participate in the survey then it's probably one of the most accurate surveys in existence. Respondents can't lie for one thing.
Hamish Campbell
2[H]4U
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The GTX400 series needs to be competitive with the ATI 6000 series. NVIDIA has nearly missed this generation of GPUs.
Yes, but the guy you quoted before specifically said "gaming", not across all boards. I'm not discrediting ATI one bit, they build a great series of cards this round, but for gamers they are still a small segment of the market. Just because Steam only shows gamer stats , there is no reason to discredit them based off that market and that is what the other guy was trying to say.
We all know that ATI is doing great in the over all picture, just not that great in the gamer market. Hopefully that will change soon so as to bring prices down some more.
piscian18
[H]F Junkie
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I think when you take into account game requirement of late and the niche market of highend gamer systems I'm impressed that Ati would pool so many resources into something like the 5870. As much as I prefer the nvidia stability/compatibility you have to respect Ati for still operating as though the product is more important to the company than money, although eyefinity was a smart mode because even highend gamers of late have been having trouble justifying continued upgrades. Now if you'll need to wait for that system crushing new game you can atleast enjoy crazy multidisplay. I wonder how Ati knew we all secretly wanted that giant multiscreen rahl julia had in streetfighter for monologing our ultimate goals of world domination?
lol. Wow, just wow.
I don't think ATi will direclty kill nVidia, I think nVidia will. Bad decisions and wildly fluctuating cash flow has done more damage than direct competitoin from ATi. Not countering the 5xxx series at all, not decisively countering the 4xxx series and these weak "rebadging" schemes are signs of a mismanaged company. When your primary spokesperson spends most of this time flamebating the competition you know you have a product/supply issue (see Sony gaming division for great examples).
Hamish Campbell
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I hope that's a "Wow, just wow...that was an excellently put and entirely correct statment" because he's exactly right.
Maybe the people declining the anonymous surveys are all ATI users.
But seriously, the Steam survey is measuring something other than the best tech of the latest product cycle. Its a view of the winner over the last few years worth of product cycles, for gamers. And its partly a popularity contest, lots of OEM boxes.
A survey of HardOCP readers may show something different, since we likely upgrade on a faster cycle than average gamers. I would bet those results would be more swingy, showing whatever is hot for the last 2 product cycles.
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Maybe the people declining the anonymous surveys are all ATI users.
But seriously, the Steam survey is measuring something other than the best tech of the latest product cycle. Its a view of the winner over the last few years worth of product cycles, for gamers. And its partly a popularity contest, lots of OEM boxes.
A survey of HardOCP readers may show something different, since we likely upgrade on a faster cycle than average gamers.
The steam survey shows the current install base. Furthermore by measuring the change from one quarter to another you can see what people are actually buying.
Yeah its great for trends (somebody dig up last quarter results!), but its not showing the latest-greatest hardware. If ATI is going up a few %, its not going to be because they have the fastest high-end part, but because of cheaper low-end stuff. Mass market. If I buy a netbook and run Steam to play Fallout1, it chalks up a point for intel even if 95% of my gaming is on the nvidia-equipped desktop.
So its kind of silly to say either company will live or die by the high-end performance of its latest product cycle. Product adoption at the low and mid-range will really help the bottom line. And that btw is what ATI is really doing well now, putting a DX11 part at every price point.
necrophile
[H]ard|Gawd
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Like it or not, the steam survey is useful.
For one thing, the adoption of win 7 will have an effect on us gamers. The amount of vista+ users exceeds xp users and the amount of dx10 gpu's (I know they may not be able to play dx10 games) on xp means the market is primed for even more adoption if there is a catalyst for it.
For one thing, the adoption of win 7 will have an effect on us gamers. The amount of vista+ users exceeds xp users and the amount of dx10 gpu's (I know they may not be able to play dx10 games) on xp means the market is primed for even more adoption if there is a catalyst for it.
Steam is a very accurate survey of PC gamers. Nearly all gamers use steam, and nearly all steam gamers get surveyed. Percentages will be pretty spot on. To even debate it just shows you're denying reality for some reason.
If anything it shows ati in a positive light - lots of people selling 8800 cards and buying 5700 cards.
If anything it shows ati in a positive light - lots of people selling 8800 cards and buying 5700 cards.
lol, no, not at all. The Steam survey is nothing more than a "gee whiz" report; to hold it to have any significance, never mind to make a point, just doesn't work at all. If you can't understand that, I suggest reading up on sampling in your favorite statistics text.
There's no contesting ATI is putting DX11 parts out in all the segments. However, Dell's default option on it's low end "gaming machine" (alienware aura) is still a GTS 240. And as much as I think Dells are a POS, a lot of people buy them.
I wish we had more detailed statistics as far as what people are buying and what they are using them for, however this is the data we do have so lets extract what we can from it.
kirbyrj
Fully [H]
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I'm still waiting for the best bang for the buck in the $200 range. Until then I see no reason to move away from my 4870.
My buddy and I each bought a 4870 512MB soon after release for ~$240. While I upgraded my monitor and therefore upgraded my graphics card since then, he still has his 4870 running at 820/1000 with no problems. The card reminds me of the 8800GTX in regards to longevity.
Hamish Campbell
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Its significance is that it accurately represents data for the sample it uses. However, It is fair to draw conclusions based on that survey to apply outside of the bounds of the steam community. Steam is popular enough at this point that it actually is the best polling method for PC hardware trends among gamers that you're going to find. You can't honestly look at it and claim there's no 'point'. There's a lot of useful data in that survey.
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necrophile
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Do you really want to know the answer to that?