LstBrunnenG
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 6,676
Okay, so you're saying Vista won't be discontinued in 2008, but XP will. This thread and its title are thefore very misleading.Just to make it clear from my ORIGINAL post, one of the replies here is correct in the TWIT podcast this week had a verbal mistake when Leo meant to say XP would be discontinued now in June instead of early next year like they first said NOT Vista. It wasn't until I listed to that portion 3 times that I was sure it was just a verbal mistake and he interchanged the two.
ME was notorious for crashing without rhyme or reason. A glitch in IE could bring down the whole system.Personally, I have a high-end PC very capable of running Vista and have indeed tried it myself. I hated the darn thing so much that I can see where, why and how it's being compared to ME.
It was also the last OS based on the Win9x kernel.
I'll grab some popcorn while you prove to me how Vista is notorious for crashing, and is the last OS to be based on the NT kernel.
What?As TWIT pointed out this week, SOME of this is due to the way Microsoft is letting 3rd parties use their OS for installing and integrating with the OS. I thought the same thing Leo did in that Microsoft should be MUCH more controlling with the 3rd parties in terms of how it installs on Vista. A lot of the install issues stem from the 3rd parties NOT taking advantage of Vista and creating LOTS of problems for the end user.
Are you saying OEMs are improperly installing Vista, or software companies such as AV firms hav been allowed to integrate too closely with the OS?
If I go to install a program on Vista, I get a popup asking me to confirm the elevated privelige that the installer is requesting. If I had a user account, I would be asked to enter the username and password of an administrator.Much of this is the CONSTANT barrage of clicking for security to install something. It should be like on Linux and Apple OS, you run in user mode for all use, Admin mode to install stuff and simply input your Admin password once to confirm WITHOUT all the pop-ups.
If I go to use System Update on Ubuntu, I get a popup asking for the root password.
What's the difference?
Anyone will tell you that logging into a GUI like GNOME as root is a BAD idea - you can open a CLI wndow and type su and then your password and be granted the same effect.
Guess what? You can do the same thing on Windows! Go to your command prompt shortcut, right-click and click "Run as Administrator." Confirm the elevated privelages, and now any programs you launch from this prompt will have administrative rights.
Of what import are the words of your experts when my own end-user experience has been anything but a nightmare?The other problems stem from the underlying kernal. If you listen to Steve Gibson, he is very knowledgeable on security and is a Windows lover but HATES Vista for the way they have made it a living nightmare for end users with how they use security in Vista. Him, Leo, Chris Perillo (spelling?) have all sent reports to Microsoft and think they need to change the OS quickly next year to save it.
Wait, so now they are scrapping Vista? I'm confusedThey may not scrap it, but a big overhaul at least for how they handle security is almost a must. Maybe SP2 in 2008? I can see Vista as having maybe a 4 year shelf life at most with at least 4 SPs released. Don't think for one second Microsoft doesn't know Vista is a clunker and they are starting over having learned from their Vista mistakes.
Let's completely ignore the fact that Microsoft completely rewrote the majority of the operating syste since XP. It looks like XP on the outside because that's the OS paradigm that people are used to. That's the OS paradigm that Microsoft's focus groups found made users most productive.MANY users with high-end PCs even like myself went back to XP SP2 and are quite happy. Essentially, if you read the technical details, basically Vista is just a much nicer GUI interface and implements security more than XP at a much worse expense to the end user.
If it looked completely different from any previous Windows release, but under the hood was simply bloat tacked onto XP, would that be more attractive to you?
Continuing to offer XP != "using XP no matter what."All the tech guys are saying the same thing, Steve Gibson, Leo, Chris, etc. and I know MANY users and most PC companies such as Dell are telling Microsoft they are using XP no matter what until some of the Vista junk is better next year.
No, but FUD and unsubstantiated opinions just generally tend to piss people off.I had no idea people were so FANATICAL over defending Microsoft or any OS for that matter.
I'm running low on popcorn. I'm still waiting for these issues.Anyway, I have made my points and pointed out the details and info coming from the podcasts mentioned and on various web sites. Bottom line is if you are happy great no one cares but you what OS you use because that's your choice and money. All I said was what the best people around are saying about it and from my own use. Unless you are gaming high-end on the PC then there really isn't much use in Vista due to all the issues outlined on the above posts I made.
What? Vista taunts security?While the security issues as mentioned are the worst issue with the annoying pop-ups over how Linux or Max OS does it with their Admin rules, it goes MUCH deeper. Again, all of this is documented by Gibson very nicely and you do NOT have the added security that Vista so highly taunts at this point.
Grammatical errors aside, I just read this. It's your experts, Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte, talking about the security in Vista. From what you said, I expected to see them saying there were some easily-exploited holes, or the kernel was written poorly, etc etc. Instead, I saw them praising Vista's security! I saw them saying that, in a version or two, Windows could end up being the most secure OS in the world!
Has this sunk in yet? Let me directly quote them:
What they criticize is software out there today that requires administrative rights. They say that lazy programmers have for too long assumed admin rights, and now that they don't have them, these older programs get broken. New software won't have these problems.Steve Gibson said:Well, now, this will break some things. Microsoft is unable, as we’ve seen, for example, with the kernel patch protection, they’re unable to simply shut down all kernel modification in 32-bit Windows as they have for 64. So they’re saying, look, we’re going to be really resistant to this kind of behavior and sort of try to moderate how much they push back. But what’s very clear as you look at what Microsoft has done throughout Windows Vista is there is finally some real pushback from the OS onto applications, saying, look, it’s time for us all to clean up our act. It’s time for us to start behaving ourselves. And you can read the handwriting on the wall that this is going to be increasingly enforced over time until eventually, Leo, I can say, I can foresee the time when Windows ends up being the most secure operating system around.
I don't see any signs of these people predicting Vista's doom, nor do I see them sending messages to Microsoft outlining all of Vista's faults. I see them praising Vista for what they perceive as stronger security.
No, look up. Gibson likes Vista.Rather or not it will ever be secure like the other OSs is anyones guess until SP1 comes out to test what they have done. But Gibson is certainly on his mark and can go up with the any name you want to throw out there in terms of his technical AND security knowledge. Vista is a failure in those terms so far.
Every expert? Since when is there consensus in the tech community? Your own experts don't even support this consensus, so I'm not going to put much stock in it.All the other issues will have to wait until SP1 to know more, but every expert agrees that Vista as it is is ME all over again and a bad waste of money with all their package levels.
More self-contradiction.My final say is that I'm siding with the expert tech guys of Leo, Gibson, Perillo (spelling ?) and others in that Vista is junk as it is until a MAJOR overhaul is done (SP1?) to know more.
Incomprehensible.For now, XP SP2 is the best and most stable OS available for the PC and perhaps even until after Vista just like ME.
On the other hand, I see OEMs embracing technologies which Vista supports. My X61t had an option for Intel TurboMemory, which is used for ReadyBoost in Vista. Asus is offering notebooks with SideShow.I wanted to clarify this before closing it out in this post. What I meant by "Dell trashing Vista for XP" was that Dell doesn't like Vista at all due to all of its issues, but still offer it of course since it's still being made by Microsoft. Again though, if you listen to the podcasts they give the impression that Dell and others are pushing Microsoft to abandon that piece of junk and start over.
Notice that Dell initially dropped XP support, and only added it agian because customers asked for it. If what you say is true, it would have to be the other way around. Dell would have been hesitant to offer Vista, and customers would have had to press for it.
I'd love you to point me at a transcript where it sounds like Gibson is trashing Vista. Either you or he completely contradicts themselves.You asked what I had against it, see my all my posts in this thread and read all the tech reviews and updates on the various web sites (Locker Knome, Leo, etc.) and combine with my own experience and it matches what all the experts have and are saying about it being ME junk so far. I'm NOT talking 3rd party fault here, Steve Gibson has outlined some SERIOUS issues and if you follow all this about Vista you will know it's the OS itself at this time.
Again with the everyone. If everyone thought it was ME, nobody would be in this thread contradicting you.As I said, SP1 may change things some, but everyone thinks it's ME over again and Microsoft is already starting to abandon it with more info to come in 2008.
Also, you again say that MS is ditching Vista in 2008. Which is it? Is it XP or Vista?
I did! Said details and commentary contradicted every word you said!That's all I have to say on the matter, I've told you where to read and go for all the details over the past year and in the end it's up to you to decide. Hope things work out for you too.
Tell me, Duby, how would an open-source-only world be better? Right now I have the choice between closed-source Windows, closed-source OS X, and open-source Linux. Your utopia would rob me of two of those options, and thus of choice.And thank god for it tooo... That is the day we should all be looking forward to,.... Pray for it, and it'll come.