Virginia Tech Shootings

[Ockie]

See what I quoted. I meant to include our other Middle Eastern campaigns as well. He pinpointed an area but terrorists are everywhere.

Yeah but from what I understood he wasn't talking a particular region in general such as Iraq (Although there are some nutty ones there too). We are in Somalia, Kenya, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey, Western China, India, ... literally all over the world including the Phillipeans... hunting down these bastards.

Right. No contest there.

 

[GJSNeptune]

Yeah but from what I understood he wasn't talking a particular region in general such as Iraq (Although there are some nutty ones there too). We are in Somalia, Kenya, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey, Western China, India, ... literally all over the world including the Phillipeans... hunting down these bastards.

Doesn't matter. We can't take it to them when they're everywhere around the world. Perhaps we've stopped some, but it isn't as absolute as he's making it sound.

Then there are our own people being so disgruntled about our government that they join the terrorists. We've got terrorists and potential terrorists to defend against.

I forget why we're even talking about this.

 

[GJSNeptune]

Just a follow up to those who were trying to get in touch with VT friends, if you guys don't mind me asking, have you made any progress?

 

[TheGardenTool]

An attempt to paraphrase a little bit of Eddie Izzard from his Dress to Kill standup:

Guns don't kill people, but they sure as fuck help. You have to be weak in the heart for the bang sound to kill you.

Or a bit from somebody else, whom I cannot remember his name, the price of bullets should be raised to $5000 each, therefore people will be really catious about who they choose to shoot.

On a more serious note, I live in Oklahoma and was here for the Murrah bombing. I saw how it affected a state but at least some families got closure when they executed McVeigh. With this shooting, the shooter took his own life so there will still be a void of justice in the families.

 

[Ockie]

Doesn't matter. We can't take it to them when they're everywhere around the world. Perhaps we've stopped some, but it isn't as absolute as he's making it sound.

Then there are our own people being so disgruntled about our government that they join the terrorists. We've got terrorists and potential terrorists to defend against.

I forget why we're even talking about this.

I've grown up in this, and if there is one thing to learn, terrorists are like misquotes, as many as you kill and as much as you hate them... they are always popping up somewhere.

So yeah I agree, there is no absolute... too many people with nothing to lose and much to gain.

I don't know why we are talking about this but keep going, it's diffusing the temperature in here

 

[Mav451]

A
Or a bit from somebody else, whom I cannot remember his name, the price of bullets should be raised to $5000 each, therefore people will be really catious about who they choose to shoot.

One of more intelligent comedians, Chris Rock, said that.

 

[GJSNeptune]

Or a bit from somebody else, whom I cannot remember his name, the price of bullets should be raised to $5000 each, therefore people will be really catious about who they choose to shoot.

Heh. Then people will try to make their own bullets, which would probably result in killing themselves. Or, though Mythbusters busted the myth, meat bullets!

 

[Ockie]

An attempt to paraphrase a little bit of Eddie Izzard from his Dress to Kill standup:

Guns don't kill people, but they sure as fuck help. You have to be weak in the heart for the bang sound to kill you.

Well this can be said with everything. The car he drove there also helped him to kill. The shoes he wore also helped him get there to kill. The food he ate helped him sustain his killing. The bullet proof vest (from rumors i heard) also helped.

In the end it's pointless to blame problems on an object such as guns, video games, xboxes, computers, etc... as they are merley just tools to do the job easier.

Keep in mind, it's the same guns which stopped him, so guns in essence are not bad.

Or a bit from somebody else, whom I cannot remember his name, the price of bullets should be raised to $5000 each, therefore people will be really catious about who they choose to shoot.

When you are going out, cost is hardly a factor. I agree with your logic here, but it wouldn't solve much, only lead to more problems (aka, snipers).

On a more serious note, I live in Oklahoma and was here for the Murrah bombing. I saw how it affected a state but at least some families got closure when they executed McVeigh. With this shooting, the shooter took his own life so there will still be a void of justice in the families.

Well from what the news have been reporting they mentioned how messed up he was (from police bullets?), so perhaps the police did take care of the bastard. In the end, he's dead, wheter it be from a chair or a gun, the result is the same.... the advantage with this is that we saved the families the grief of having to see his twisted face on tv.. and spared the tax payers the burden of high level courts.

 

[Draax]

Well this can be said with everything. The car he drove there also helped him to kill. The shoes he wore also helped him get there to kill. The food he ate helped him sustain his killing. The bullet proof vest (from rumors i heard) also helped.

Why people continue to use this false line of reasoning is beyond me. A car, shoes, food, none of these things are designed to kill, guns on the other hand are.

There is a very significant difference between shoes and a gun, the fact that this has to be pointed out again and again is disconcerting to say the least.

 

[Levii]

Or a bit from somebody else, whom I cannot remember his name, the price of bullets should be raised to $5000 each, therefore people will be really catious about who they choose to shoot.

I think that was Chris Rock. The problem with this line of reasoning (one of many problems) is that responsible gun ownership includes being able to use the weapon well, which requires practice.

 

[GJSNeptune]

Why people continue to use this false line of reasoning is beyond me. A car, shoes, food, none of these things are designed to kill, guns on the other hand are.

Did you read his next sentence?

In the end it's pointless to blame problems on an object such as guns, video games, xboxes, computers, etc... as they are merley just tools to do the job easier.

 

[Ockie]

Why people continue to use this false line of reasoning is beyond me. A car, shoes, food, none of these things are designed to kill, guns on the other hand are.

There is a very significant difference between shoes and a gun, the fact that this has to be pointed out again and again is disconcerting to say the least.

What is beyond me is how someone can blame a object that is nothing more than a tube with a trigger... instead of blaming those who were the ones pulling that trigger and laughing as each life perished in front of them


There isn't much of a significant diffrence between the two, other than that they are both material objects incapable of killing somone on their own.

 

[GJSNeptune]

...unless you meant people excluding Ockie. If so, disregard.

 

[Draax]

What is beyond me is how someone can blame a object that is nothing more than a tube with a trigger... instead of blaming those who were the ones pulling that trigger and laughing as each life perished in front of them


There isn't much of a significant diffrence between the two, other than that they are both material objects incapable of killing somone on their own.

Identifying false logic which equates shoes to guns, and blaming a gun for a shooting spree are quite a ways off. Then again when you deal in a world of absolutes maybe they aren't.

 

[Lightbulb]

Its offical the shooter is a South Korean, who is a legal resident with a Green card which gives him near citizen status. He has lived in this country with his parents for the past fourteen years. It seems he bought the guns legally through a local gun dealer. It also is coming out that he was a deeply distrubed individal who was stalking the first victim. He also had written some very deranged papers in a creative writing class. Many people where aware of his anger but nothing was done about it.

 

[Ockie]

Identifying false logic which equates shoes to guns, and blaming a gun for a shooting spree are quite a ways off. Then again when you deal in a world of absolutes maybe they aren't.

Not really false logic. I dare you to write to some gun inventors, perhaps the NRA... write to Barret, write to Konov, write to all of them.


Ask them this question, "Did you design guns to kill innocent people?"


Let me know of their response. Cars were not meant to kill people, but people use them as weapons. Axes and hammers were meant for wood or nails, not for killing people. Guns were meant for war and for stopping criminals, not for killing the innocent.

In the end, it's just a tool. If this retard ran around with Chlorine gas or perhaps Mustard gas or even Nerve agents.... then what would you blame? The person or the gas for causing these deaths? What if this person strangled people in their dorm rooms with mouse cords? Should computer mice be outlawed?

 

[cerebrex]

Just because someone is tried as an adult, doesn't mean they are not a minor.

I didn't set the age of majority, it is what it is. If you have problems with the age of majority, I suggest you argue it using the proper channels.

incorrect again, a minor, and a child are 2 seperate terminologies - if he used the term 'minor' it would be correct, and his statement would be accurate, however he used the term 'child' - this word is open to opinion - the reason it was used was simple - it makes you think babies and toddlers - "minors" doesn't have that effect. My intention was to display the bias, and convenient terminology used by the writer to push his political agenda. You're running right off the table with this argument.

 

[GJSNeptune]

They're also saying his fingerprints were on both guns, so he was also the first shooter.

 

[GJSNeptune]

incorrect again, a minor, and a child are 2 seperate terminologies - if he used the term 'minor' it would be correct, and his statement would be accurate, however he used the term 'child' - this word is open to opinion - the reason it was used was simple - it makes you think babies and toddlers - "minors" doesn't have that effect. My intention was to display the bias, and convenient terminology used by the writer to push his political agenda. You're running right off the table with this argument.

Come on. We're past this now.

 

[Ockie]

Its offical the shooter is a South Korean, who is a legal resident with a Green card which gives him near citizen status. He has lived in this country with his parents for the past fourteen years. It seems he bought the guns legally through a local gun dealer. It also is coming out that he was a deeply distrubed individal who was stalking the first victim. He also had written some very deranged papers in a creative writing class. Many people where aware of his anger but nothing was done about it.

His family also seemed to be doing well as his sister was in Princeton.

I don't know where the red flags popped up, but judging from this, there should have been many.

 

[Scorpionjwp]

Does anyone have a slight clue what the shooter might have done between the 2hr and 25minutes between each of the shootings.

I ask this question because this thread is now going off track from the shootings to gun control.

Ok we know:
7:15AM the first shooting, 2 dead.
9:26AM the second shooting 31 dead.

It takes only 15 minutes to walk from between the 2 buildings.

So what did he do? Did he go get the other pistol, get more ammo, plan the next attack, why 2hrs apart?

 

[Ockie]

Does anyone have a slight clue what the shooter might have done between the 2hr and 25minutes between each of the shootings.

I ask this question because this thread is now going off track from the shootings to gun control.

Ok we know:
7:15AM the first shooting, 2 dead.
9:26AM the second shooting 31 dead.

It takes only 15 minutes to walk from between the 2 buildings.

So what did he do? Did he go get the other pistol, get more ammo, plan the next attack, why 2hrs apart?

I'm guessing he fled the scene, when he noticed that he could go back again to continue he took the chance. Perhaps he knew the police would search and then interview... allowing him to continue.

Sounds like he planned this out as his movements seemed pretty calculated.

 

[GJSNeptune]

Hold on, let me get a forensics degree real quick and drive to VT.

 

[Ockie]

Hold on, let me get a forensics degree real quick and drive to VT.

Hurry up, we aint got all day!

 

[Draax]

incorrect again, a minor, and a child are 2 seperate terminologies - if he used the term 'minor' it would be correct, and his statement would be accurate, however he used the term 'child' - this word is open to opinion - the reason it was used was simple - it makes you think babies and toddlers - "minors" doesn't have that effect. My intention was to display the bias, and convenient terminology used by the writer to push his political agenda. You're running right off the table with this argument.

The word child and minor are interchangeable as far as the law is concerned, which I have already stated.

In your attempt to show the bias of the writer, you only managed to show your own bias. You used a definition of children/minor which is contrary to how the law defines children/minors, to slant the numbers in your favor.

Where I come from that’s called hypocrisy and doesn’t do much for the credibility of your argument.

 

[slacker6]

Its offical the shooter is a South Korean, who is a legal resident with a Green card which gives him near citizen status. He has lived in this country with his parents for the past fourteen years. It seems he bought the guns legally through a local gun dealer. It also is coming out that he was a deeply distrubed individal who was stalking the first victim. He also had written some very deranged papers in a creative writing class. Many people where aware of his anger but nothing was done about it.

The whole debaucle is just terrible. We can all decide to blame something or someone but that does not address the issue.

The last sentence exemplifies the failure of both the shooter and society to recognize and be proactive with a potentially manageable issue.

 

[GJSNeptune]

So are we to assume that the dorm shooting was the girl he was stalking, as well as the guy who perhaps he thought was her boyfriend or something?

I figure the first shooting was a good way to distract the police, although I wouldn't say it was random. The second shootings seem random, like a large massacre to leave behind, but I wonder if he went there for certain people.

Ugh, what a shame.

 

[Lightbulb]

[Does anyone have a slight clue what the shooter might have done between the 2hr and 25minutes between each of the shootings/QUOTE]

I believe the offical Police timeline of the events is after the first shooting in the dorm, he went back to his dorm room, loaded up his magazines, and then wrote his last demented manifest.

 

[Ockie]

So are we to assume that the dorm shooting was the girl he was stalking, as well as the guy who perhaps he thought was her boyfriend or something?

I figure the first shooting was a good way to distract the police, although I wouldn't say it was random. The second shootings seem random, like a large massacre to leave behind, but I wonder if he went there for certain people.

Ugh, what a shame.

They are saying that the girl was his Girlfriend or was or might be. Then they are saying the the guy was the RA. I think he shot the RA because the RA is a threat to him or might have seen him?

 

[GJSNeptune]

Who knows. First they say he was looking for his girlfriend, and then suddenly every article didn't even mention a girlfriend. Then they're talking about him stalking someone. Not even sure what to think.

 

[Ockie]

Who knows. First they say he was looking for his girlfriend, and then suddenly every article didn't even mention a girlfriend. Then they're talking about him stalking someone. Not even sure what to think.

To be honest, I don't know if we will ever know. The media just does a crap shoot. But with everyone (shooter and girl) dead, not many people can attest to what really happend.

Hey Neptune, don't you have the same major? Uh Oh. Better be nice to ya jk.

 

[GJSNeptune]

Hey Neptune, don't you have the same major? Uh Oh. Better be nice to ya jk.

Nope. I have the degree.

 

[Lightbulb]

So are we to assume that the dorm shooting was the girl he was stalking, as well as the guy who perhaps he thought was her boyfriend or something?

Well it was a girl he knew from some class. He might have been obessed with her, or maybe just hated her. The man that was shot at the same time was not her lover, but a dorm Resident Assistant, useally a senior classman, who lived in the room next to her. He responed to the fight between the shooter and the first victim, but was gunned down with her.

 

[Ockie]

Since it is all speculation at this point.

Perhaps he ran back to his dorm to sand off the registration numbers.


Perhaps he just got into a fight with this girl, fight got bad, he got pissed... RA came in, he snapped and shot them both. Ran back to his dorm... freaking out, sanding off the registration numbers so he doesn't get caught (perhaps intending to dispose of the weapons)... decided he was screwed for life anyways, then chooses to go back and just give a payback to everyone and go out with a show?


Just the events is very weird to me, thats how I see it happening.

 

[TheGardenTool]

Well this can be said with everything. The car he drove there also helped him to kill. The shoes he wore also helped him get there to kill. The food he ate helped him sustain his killing. The bullet proof vest (from rumors i heard) also helped.

While it was a simple paraphrase, it gets to the point that the gun, bullet and person are reasonable for it. A gun by its self could not kill somebody, but when you combine the gun with either of the other two variables, it can kill. A gun + bullet can be a accidental discharge or a gun+person could lead to pistol whips. Sure you can go on a rampage with a car but after you hit so many people there could be damage to the car, which could prevent further matters like a broke windshield that causes a loss of visibility. Now getting down to the shoes part, he could have been barefoot and did what he did.

In the end it's pointless to blame problems on an object such as guns, video games, xboxes, computers, etc... as they are merley just tools to do the job easier.

Sure he could have done it by hand, but that requires more time and it wouldn't have gotten to where it was without being stopped first.

Keep in mind, it's the same guns which stopped him, so guns in essence are not bad.

I never did mean to suggest that guns are not bad. When used correctly, they can be efficent in what they do. I am in the military so I know my rifle is what can save my life in a certain situtation but also another rifle can end it.

When you are going out, cost is hardly a factor. I agree with your logic here, but it wouldn't solve much, only lead to more problems (aka, snipers).

It was another quote to try and prove that it takes more than one thing for the gun to be effective.

Well from what the news have been reporting they mentioned how messed up he was (from police bullets?), so perhaps the police did take care of the bastard. In the end, he's dead, wheter it be from a chair or a gun, the result is the same.... the advantage with this is that we saved the families the grief of having to see his twisted face on tv.. and spared the tax payers the burden of high level courts.

I think more of the families would rather have seen him be put to justice before the law and spend the tax money on it than anything else. Although since I am not one of them, that is just my opinion alone. The State of Oklahoma did put McVeigh's execute on several closed-circuit televisions across the state for the family members who could not make it in person but felt like they needed that closure. From what I understood, it was a pretty high turn out for the justice they felt like they needed to see.

 

[Unabomber]

Since it is all speculation at this point.

Your guess is as good as mine. All we can do is watch the details trickle in as more things are uncovered.

Perhaps he ran back to his dorm to sand off the registration numbers.

It would work on the Walther, but probably wouldn't be too productive on the Glock. The steel is Tennifer treated, and would require a very, very hard file in order to grind down the steel to a point where the numbers were unreadable.

Also, he would have to do this on the barrel as well, which is similarly Tennifer treated.

 

[Ockie]

It would work on the Walther, but probably wouldn't be too productive on the Glock. The steel is Tennifer treated, and would require a very, very hard file in order to grind down the steel to a point where the numbers were unreadable.

Also, he would have to do this on the barrel as well, which is similarly Tennifer treated.

They mentioned in a news clipping that the serial numbers were sanded off. I'm not sure if that is officially the case or not. But thats why I just included it into my speculation, would make sense I guess.

But yeah, good point.

 

[Ockie]

While it was a simple paraphrase, it gets to the point that the gun, bullet and person are reasonable for it. A gun by its self could not kill somebody, but when you combine the gun with either of the other two variables, it can kill. A gun + bullet can be a accidental discharge or a gun+person could lead to pistol whips. Sure you can go on a rampage with a car but after you hit so many people there could be damage to the car, which could prevent further matters like a broke windshield that causes a loss of visibility. Now getting down to the shoes part, he could have been barefoot and did what he did.

Same argument can be turned onto a gun. Gun can run ouf of bullets, it can jam, the guy might have crap aim (not in this case), etc etc etc.

A madman with a truck can also do the same. The point I'm trying to make is that it's just a tool, an object that was used, many other object could have been also used.

To blame it on just guns is foolish in my oppinion, it's the person who carried that gun that should be blamed.

Sure he could have done it by hand, but that requires more time and it wouldn't have gotten to where it was without being stopped first.

Many serial killers far exceeded that quota by hand methods.

I think more of the families would rather have seen him be put to justice before the law and spend the tax money on it than anything else. Although since I am not one of them, that is just my opinion alone. The State of Oklahoma did put McVeigh's execute on several closed-circuit televisions across the state for the family members who could not make it in person but felt like they needed that closure. From what I understood, it was a pretty high turn out for the justice they felt like they needed to see.

Perhaps, it would depend on the type of person. To me the end result stays the same and I would rather save money at it. For others the justification of watching is good enough for them and worth the costs.

But not much you can do to a gun running around shooting people, you pretty much have to kill.

 

[cerebrex]

The word child and minor are interchangeable as far as the law is concerned, which I have already stated.

In your attempt to show the bias of the writer, you only managed to show your own bias. You used a definition of children/minor which is contrary to how the law defines children/minors, to slant the numbers in your favor.

Where I come from that’s called hypocrisy and doesn’t do much for the credibility of your argument.

You keep pushing this issue as I attempt to walk away. Unfortunately, for the 5th? time you're wrong again.

I just pulled out my law book and here is the definition for you to whine about:

"child (1) A son or daughter of any age, sometimes including biological offspring, unborn children, adopted children, stepchildren, foster children and children born outside of marriage. (2) A person under an age specified by law, often 14 or 16. For example, state law may require a person to be over the age of 14 to make a valid will, or may define the crime of statutory rape as sex with a person under the age of 16. In this sense, a child can be distinguished from a minor, who is a person under the age of 18 in most states. A person below the specified legal age who is married is often considered an adult rather than a child."

Again, the word "child" is relative - it is open to debate, your state's statutes, your opinion, etc... the word "child" was used in the study to make the reader picture toddlers or babies. The word "minor" you are so damn hell bent on pushing at me, IS the proper term which was NOT used. The term minor means 0-18yrs - there is no opinion, or discretion. This is why your argument is wrong, I hope you see that. Now please, let's end this you're circumventing my original facts and arguments and trying to center your entire argument in a single word, breaking it down into basic vocabulary... you completely missed the point, and unfortunately the little strip you did pull from my statement and reasoning was in fact, wrong.

 

[GJSNeptune]

Good. Let's finally put this irrelevant discussion to rest.