![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
-
Some users have recently had their accounts hijacked. It seems that the now defunct EVGA forums might have compromised your password there and seems many are using the same PW here. We would suggest you UPDATE YOUR PASSWORD and TURN ON 2FA for your account here to further secure it. None of the compromised accounts had 2FA turned on.
Once you have enabled 2FA, your account will be updated soon to show a badge, letting other members know that you use 2FA to protect your account. This should be beneficial for everyone that uses FSFT.
Vega Rumors
- Thread starter grtitan
- Start date
Well there are other things there too, Vega 12nm, Navi being pushed out till after Vega 7nm, pretty much Navi is now 7nm too, in all likely hood we will not see it out this year since Vega 7nm will be end of this year. AMD/RTG will be a none factor in gaming this coming year. All AMD has for the foreseeable future is Vega, and that is exactly what he stated. Scott even went on to say the roadmap is not a hard roadmap, anotherwords things have changed and still changing, that is not confidence, that is a lot of uncertainty when they are already waist deep in these designs, something else _mockingbird stated too,
Sodapopjones
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2012
- Messages
- 1,932
I stopped watching when he said "Vega's performance has gotten stronger uh compared to the competition over time.." I would probably have punched him in the nuts and left if I was the guy with the mic...
cybereality
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 8,787
Well considering you can't find any Nvidia cards above a 1050 Ti in stock, maybe there is no longer competition.
So will there be a 12nm Vega? We heard there will be a 7nm Instinct Vega at CES (no timeline). Last year AMD said they will be 12nm Vega's but nothing revealed at CES so far. I guess there is zero need to do any hype since they can't make enough of anything to saturate the market. The first one Nvidia or AMD that gives out specs for a much lower cost to make mining card to the OEMs will probably make out big. Also, I would think there would be more failed Vega's but still able to work with less than 56 compute units - like 52, 48 or whatever that could be used for mining cards at a discount. In fact AMD/Nvidia could make cards that does not even fit into a typical PCIe slot - could be just a 1x pcie and has mounting not even on the ends - in other words making it easier to put several together (maybe even hooking up together).
Anyways if AMD and Nvidia does not protect the gaming market with available hardware it will be stifled and potentially lost. Right now there are virtually no gaming cards, they are mining cards first and gaming is 2nd.
Anyways if AMD and Nvidia does not protect the gaming market with available hardware it will be stifled and potentially lost. Right now there are virtually no gaming cards, they are mining cards first and gaming is 2nd.
cybereality
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 8,787
Or, you know, AMD/NV can just produce enough cards to meet demand.
IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2003
- Messages
- 14,669
Can't do that overnight...
AMD kinda stated that at CES... there will be a 12nm Vega
I'm not sure if they mean 12 nm as in Vega + Intel, but the way I took it is Vega desktop will be shrunk to 12nm GF. If the process is good, and similar in price to 14nm, it would be wise for them to do it as per chip cost drops.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2001
- Messages
- 15,903
razor1, I'm pretty sure GF 12nm is just a refined 14nm and there's not much of a shrink there to lower chip cost. I may be wrong, but the real shrink is to pseudo 7nm later on.
dragonstongue
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2008
- Messages
- 3,162
Ah here we go. HBCC in action.
Holy hell...wouldn't want to see the amount of electricity let alone heat output of that beast, but sexy it is ^.^
it is it has less layers, so it should be vastly cheaper per chip talking about 25% less. Also has better power profile too. So that will really help with Vega in the short term (not against nV's next gen but current)
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2001
- Messages
- 15,903
Cool. Bring on cheaper video cards!
There is no 12nm Vega, just the 7nm Instinct one.
dragonstongue
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2008
- Messages
- 3,162
Only AMD knows this, all I know, is want a new gpu, RX 500 are not currently available least the ones I was eyeballing, and Vega is beyond what budget range I have (as well as can effectively use without bottlenecking the crap out of it)
want to "replace" my Radeon 7870, so even if they were available, not want to drop a tier i.e RX460/560 though cost was right, and 470/570 would have replaced for a higher performance bracket, but also a good chunk more $ (instead of around the same price level as I paid way back when ^.^).
I am hopeful AMD releases a "modern" 7870 i.e 1280 shader 80+ROP/32+TMU on 256bit with 4+gb memory ~150w or less loaded, for its time, it really was a well engineered "performance" gpu.
As for the the less layers bit, that could mean (in theory) ability to clock a bit higher (less resistance to electrical noise and less "metal" probably has an impact albeit likely a small difference) hopefully they not reduce too many layers, already had Intel do that and those buying them suffer IMO from bending chips that should not be, or possibly even to higher than should have temps (not enough wiring to allow voltages be less centralized??)
GF12nm probably is no different than AMD did many years ago with the 4890 from 4870, cut some of the redundancy so they could increase the amount of transistors and clock rates...I would really like to see a maker of these things to truly utilize a die shrink to remake the exact same chip
for example, RX 580, keep the same transistor count etc, but because of shrink probably would allow the higher clocks at a reduction in power and heat (lower cost cause not as much "wasted" on transistors per die)
=========================================
===========
Everyone (Intel, TSMC, GF, Samsung etc) always seem to say "die shrink to X from Y allows Z amount of performance increase or lower power consumption at a reduced price, but yet, they always seem to end up using more power because they jack in a bunch of extra transistors, not usually end up significantly faster, just pricier, seem to get "hotter" and rarely end up getting any noticeable extra features either.
dragonstongue
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2008
- Messages
- 3,162
^ the above, Radeon instinct Vega 7nm, nowhere in this does it state that vega 56/64 will not also be 12nm or RX 5xx will not be refreshed for 12nm as well..
Seems fishy to see out of stock many of the 1000 series (not that I would buy anyways) and many of the RX 5xx series also not available, either they are selling way faster than they can keep in stock, or,
they are making sure none are on the shelf so they do not have to markdown stock keeping numbers when "new" gen roles out shortly, or,
price of vram/dram currently makes it not a profitable situation for them to keep costs reasonable and still turn a profit (I can see this being more an issue for AMD as Nv and certainly Intel historically have priced as high as they think they could get away with ^.^
Seems fishy to see out of stock many of the 1000 series (not that I would buy anyways) and many of the RX 5xx series also not available, either they are selling way faster than they can keep in stock, or,
they are making sure none are on the shelf so they do not have to markdown stock keeping numbers when "new" gen roles out shortly, or,
price of vram/dram currently makes it not a profitable situation for them to keep costs reasonable and still turn a profit (I can see this being more an issue for AMD as Nv and certainly Intel historically have priced as high as they think they could get away with ^.^
If they don't have a Vega 12nm, or felt like they will waste money in making such a chip against what ever is coming on nV's side, that would be a big disappointment. And with no r600 series? Man think AMD just went back down to 15% or less market share this coming year. All of their market share is in gaming or desktop related sales, no workstation, no HPC, no DL, and those 3 later aren't going to change anytime soon......
dragonstongue
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2008
- Messages
- 3,162
well TBF, AMD has history of not putting all the eggs in one basket, they keep tight lipped until last minute so no one rains on their parade, they HAVE to be more nimble and secretive, or those with deeper pockets will have a for sure headstart
4k series for sure was like this many years ago,
Ryzen (Zen AM4) with what was it 16 pci-e lanes total (came out to be 24,+8 if vendor added other supplementary chips to the motherboard direct from cpu and up to 64 with TR)
quite took the wind out of Intels sails, when folks thought the "rumors" were factual early on)..
that is all I can say, they MUST be planning on something soon, cause most of the gpu I was looking at over the past few months are claimed to be discontinued or heavily back ordered,
unless GF scrapped 14nm completely and full transition to 14nm+ (12nm) hope AMD will give them a wafer fine like GF like to do to AMD if they do not buy enough, or chose (forced) to get from others ^.^
4k series for sure was like this many years ago,
Ryzen (Zen AM4) with what was it 16 pci-e lanes total (came out to be 24,+8 if vendor added other supplementary chips to the motherboard direct from cpu and up to 64 with TR)
quite took the wind out of Intels sails, when folks thought the "rumors" were factual early on)..
that is all I can say, they MUST be planning on something soon, cause most of the gpu I was looking at over the past few months are claimed to be discontinued or heavily back ordered,
unless GF scrapped 14nm completely and full transition to 14nm+ (12nm) hope AMD will give them a wafer fine like GF like to do to AMD if they do not buy enough, or chose (forced) to get from others ^.^
dragonstongue
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2008
- Messages
- 3,162
I am still waiting, a performance bump for same or less full load power is all I have been waiting years for (7870 2gb) 200-$230 CAN$..RX470-570 were "almost" there, but, the gouging was real,
as were some of the power use or not maintaining clocks at X or Y volts type thing..
seems they did not bother making a 1280 shader "upgrade" from this awesome card only "bigger" or "smaller" I personally do not need a massive performance increase, I would be ok with say a 10-15% faster,
use less power, less heat as a result type thing..no point in having a monster cpu with no gpu to back it up or vice versa, $ does not grow on trees, unless you have trees to sell LOL.
I'll sit back and smoke cigarettes and wait lol, and wonder if I shouldn't of gotten the 580 them few years back lol. Damn seeing shit now where the 1060 can't supersample and or turn shit up without a quite a bit hit to performance.
Its not putting all eggs in one basket, if they don't have a 12nm Vega, that means there is no competition in the MID RANGE anymore let alone the performance segment. 12nm Vega will go against what ever nV is coming out with in the midrange. AMD will never come back into the graphics market if this is what happens. I mean never, the amount of money they will need to stage a comeback will be too high. They might as well stick to APU's/ low end junk pretty much. Just look its been 2 generations so far and AMD hasn't been able to do anything, now its going to be 3 gens? Have you ever seen any company in the history of any market in tech ever come back after going under 20% marketshare for more than one generation?
BTW pci-e lanes, AMD and Intel count them differently, Intel still can do more
so don't even go there, but different Intel platforms have different capabilities with PCI-e lanes as do AMD's, the lower end AMD's compared to lower end Intel platforms, can do more with higher end chips, but that just defeats the purpose of the higher end chip.PS there is no secretive BS in AMD, AMD is like a leaky faucet, we get the info on what AMD is doing well before they announce it.
Last edited:
That was two generations over 10 years time, the graphics card industry moves at a much faster rate, and AMD hasn't shown anything at all yet in penetration, thus why AMD hasn't been talking about it. They haven't made significant market share penetration on the cpu side and it doesn't seem likely they will and its already been a year. I think we have to wait for another year before we see that even a 2% change in market share in AMD's favor on the CPU side....
This was the turning point for the AMD vs nV GPU competition
https://wccftech.com/amd-relinquishes-high-end-desktop-graphics-2018/
Maxwell, screwed over AMD more ways than just coming out early. Where nV innovated, AMD stood still and cut down their R&D budgets for future products. This is going to hunt them for the rest of RTG's life.
PS the author of the WTF article was a die hard VEGA cheerleader.
Oh AMD being leaky, Kaby Lake G the bigger one, what I'm hearing its around the same performance as 1060 Max Q the smaller one is around the 1050 mobile performance but it uses 20 more watts over all (CPU + GPU). If this is the case, its going to come down to price Kaby Lake G must be cheaper than Max q variants to be competitive, 40% difference is wattage in these types of notebooks is a very big difference, looking at 45 watts vs 60 watts for the smaller of two. The two variants of Kaby lake G, one fits around the 1050 mobile and the other fits in around 1060 Max Q performance wise. I'm not sure how reliable this is, but from what we see with Vega I think it sounds about right.
Last edited:
No they really don't have any thing other than sampled 7nm Vega Instinct, looks like 12nm is going only for Ryzen 2. AMD stated their announced CES roadmap is for 2020. They already told Navi is coming after 7nm Vega Instinct. So they are already forecasting their plans. They didn't mention 12nm Vega in any form in CES.
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2007
- Messages
- 13,080
Have to say that I am incredibly content with my one Vega 56 reference edition.
At this point in time it doesn't matter, there are no cards available. Will Nvidia have enough cards? Or charge way high prices or both for Volta? Will mining still be an issue? At least we saw a number of price drops today for Crypto - maybe it will correct itself from the hyperbola.
AMD/RTG is selling everything they can make - Meaning a blaring Vega success so far
. No need to spend money on something that is higher cost to make and sell out just the same. I wonder if Nvidia will delay Volta as well since no announcement at CES. PaperMaster last year is the one indicating Vega was going to the 12nm process - appears that may have changed.AMD/RTG is selling everything they can make - Meaning a blaring Vega success so far
Have to look at inventory numbers to see what is going on, but nV would have much more number of cards a higher % for inventory amounts since they have higher market share. So if nV is also selling out, they gain market share since volume wise they need a larger cushion.
This is exactly what happened with the x29x series from AMD vs Keplar, this is always why mining isn't going give AMD anything. Now we can't get Vega cards right now right? lets see what this Q's numbers look like form a profit perspective, if it comes out true to what AMD predicted, a loss, well, that means, no Vega lost a butt load of market share. Since CPU's can't do worse then they were before. Or they lost share in CPU's too.
AMD doesn't have the flexibility to make as many cards as they need cause if any part of the market shifts for them, there is no where for them to go. nV has more OEM deals, and they can push cards to other parts of the market if need be this is why if any part of the market takes an upswing, they need to have a higher % of inventory.
For the past 5 months nV cards have been as profitable or more profitable than AMD, and it took that long for it to show up in store stock. Why? Mining has been popular all these months but prices only increased in the past 2 weeks, when inventory dried up. AMD Vega has been short on stock since launch. I think we might have seen a week or two where we could actually buy more than 1? AIB partner boards, still hard to get. Miners as much its easy to blame them, its not fully them. Shit, 50 k miners world wide, which is a very high number, but miners with more than 10 rigs, , that is 6 million cards. That is oh almost the entire market of cards. That is how many miners with that many rigs will need to stop gaming market lol. Very few folks have that much money nor the access to a place to deliver that power.
10 rigs is not cheap either most miners have 2 to 5 rigs at most cause they mine at their home. professional miners that are doing it as a business, I would think very few out there that do it. in the 1000's at most. Talking about having more than 30 rigs, cause most people can't do that at home, nor do they have the funds to rent out a place to do something like that.
Last edited:
Plus Nvidia cards are way cheaper to make - 256bit bus or 384bit or less (talking Pascal) less power so rest of card can be cheaper or lower cost, plus the 1060s are 6/3gb vice 8/4gb - win win. Hard to believe AMD will loose if they sell everything they makeHave to look at inventory numbers to see what is going on, but nV would have much more number of cards a higher % for inventory amounts since they have higher market share. So if nV is also selling out, they gain market share since volume wise they need a larger cushion.
This is exactly what happened with the x29x series from AMD vs Keplar, this is always why mining isn't going give AMD anything. Now we can't get Vega cards right now right? lets see what this Q's numbers look like form a profit perspective, if it comes out true to what AMD predicted, a loss, well, that means, no Vega lost a butt load of market share. Since CPU's can't do worse then they were before. Or they lost share in CPU's too.
AMD doesn't have the flexibility to make as many cards as they need cause if any part of the market shifts for them, there is no where for them to go. nV has more OEM deals, and they can push cards to other parts of the market if need be this is why if any part of the market takes an upswing, they need to have a higher % of inventory.
For the past 5 months nV cards have been as profitable or more profitable than AMD, and it took that long for it to show up in store stock. Why? Mining has been popular all these months but prices only increased in the past 2 weeks, when inventory dried up. AMD Vega has been short on stock since launch. I think we might have seen a week or two where we could actually buy more than 1? AIB partner boards, still hard to get. Miners as much its easy to blame them, its not fully them. Shit, 50 k miners world wide, which is a very high number, but miners with more than 10 rigs, lets say everyone of them had 100 rigs, that is 60000 cards. That is a drop in the bucket
, but then again it is AMD we are talking about. I think Vega is cool tech but not something AMD is going to make a killing over.Plus Nvidia cards are way cheaper to make - 256bit bus or 384bit or less (talking Pascal) less power so rest of card can be cheaper or lower cost, plus the 1060s are 6/3gb vice 8/4gb - win win. Hard to believe AMD will loose if they sell everything they make
Well not talking about margins, yeah nV is way ahead in margins because of those reasons + they have higher margin markets too.
Just purely marketshare. Even if AMD is selling out of Vega, its not going to help them retain market share, the reason for that, is because nV has OEM deals for their performance and higher tier cards. They will make sure those OEM's will get those cards. AIB partners can sell out of their stock but the OEM's are secured.
serial__thrilla
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2018
- Messages
- 182
It's all Model Number/Price Stickied To It nowadays, but nVidia is winning in the so-called "heat dissipated" department; their cards kick the everliving shit out of AMD RX Vega cards in terms of Performance Per Watt, it's really sad. I do have stock in both companies, though, just FYI. Not a shill for any one of them.
JustReason
razor1 is my Lover
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2015
- Messages
- 2,483
you sure about that? You are in the AMD sub forum trash talking AMD. Connotation requires a bit more tact when in hostile territory.
serial__thrilla
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2018
- Messages
- 182
I'm not trash talking, this is a fact - AMD cards do require more power and they do dissipate more heat; as well, the core clocks of the Vega chips are wayyyyyy lower than nVidia's 1000-series chips.
JustReason
razor1 is my Lover
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2015
- Messages
- 2,483
no you said kick the ever living shit, which is not a statement of fact but rather your colorful ill placed description. And clocks are not the end all be all. My vega hit 1800 in some games so not a huge discrepancy. Hell I am not saying it beats NVidia but it is no where near as bad a picture as you paint. However if you feel the need to bash AMD then there is a video card and NVidia sub section. Here it would be nice if you show a modicum of respect to AMD owners as this is the section we frequent.
Actaully they do he said kick the ever living shit on Perf/watt, you can't deny that, there is no Vega that is even close to Pascal, any of them, in Perf/watt.
Original sentence
So he wasn't talking about performance. But if you want to go there, the Vega partner cards at MSRP, are around the cost of the 1080ti for Vega 64 and for Vega 56 they are around the gtx 1080, so yeah they get their asses kicked by Pascal there too.
Why the hell should he care what you bought?
We are here to talk about products. Call it as it is, Vega is poor product compared to what its up against. The entire GCN Line up this gen and last gen have been mediocre. No one can say otherwise