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Valve screwed up HUGELY... cards saying declined, even though they're charged for DOD
- Thread starter GoldenTiger
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D
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Some of you need a reality check. Even when you purchase a game at the store, you don't own shit. You only own a LICENSE to utilze the content per the terms and condition of the End User License Agreement. This license grant is VERY narrow. I assure you that you do not OWN anything.
Project2501
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PerfectCr said:
Tiny said:
QFT
D
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Aelfgeft said:Check this out:
Every one of the other games I OWN, I can install and play within minutes (with or without a patch) with no online activation BS. I can do with them what I wish. Have fun with DoD:S
If you do not like the Terms and Conditions set forth by the Content Owner (not YOU BTW), then don't buy the game. Again, you do not own anything. You are granted a limited use license to run the software according to the Terms and Conditions of the EULA. Hate to break it to you, but when it comes to any sort of Intellectual Property (music, movies, games) you do not own anything. You license it.
Komataguri
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PerfectCr said:
a license is something that can be revoked.
They can not revoke your right to own a game you legally purchased.
Well, they can, but they'll have a hard time stopping you from doing so. That's why these systems are being put into place. Give more control to the publishers in how you can utilize THEIR software.
Legally, yes. You own shit. Literally: if you own a disc, if you don't have to pursue online activation or some such, no. You own a copy of the game, just as anyone who owns a Milton Brandly board game owns the product. You can play it however you see fit and there is very little the property rights granted by law can do for the publisher.
Legally, yes. You own shit. Literally: if you own a disc, if you don't have to pursue online activation or some such, no. You own a copy of the game, just as anyone who owns a Milton Brandly board game owns the product. You can play it however you see fit and there is very little the property rights granted by law can do for the publisher.
Komataguri
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Kiggles said:
The only time anyone can ever revoke your right to legally own something is the goverment.
And that is Firearms, and property. Eminent Domain
Eminent Domain comes to mind because recently, locally, a bunch of low profit businesses were forced off their land and out of their stores by Eminent Domain, so a private enterprise could be constructed.
They used Eminent Domain to take away land, for a private comercial enterprise. Not a highway, or a military base...
PerfectCr said:
Let's say I go outside, set fire to the EULA, put it out by urinating on it, call them up, and tell them so.
Doesn't matter. I can do with the software what I wish. I could modify it if I have the abilities. I could give it or sell it to someone else. I can do WHATEVER I want with it. You can use all the legalese in the world.
Steam users: Currently screwed
Box buyers: Playing happily
Box buyers FTW
GoldenTiger
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PerfectCr said:
Funny, I don't see the EULA displayed on the box. I have to buy the game and open it, making it NOT RETURNABLE, in order to see it. That is ridiculous, too.
GoldenTiger
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Moofasa~ said:
I did yesterday afternoon and still have no response. This is a game-stopping issue that also happens to be absurd as they have my money but have disabled the product.
GoldenTiger said:
Good point! I didn't even think of that!
I can relate as well...since a week after I bought HL2, one of the CDs was giving me a corrupted data error on install. I take the thing back to Wal-Mart and ask for an exchange. They don't have any more copies. I ask for my money back then, since I have a defective product. They tell me nope. A sneer begins on my face. Five minutes later the store manager is having a copy driven over from another store an hour away, on the condition that if it's not there by a certain time I get my money back.
Imperative for life: KNOW your consumer rights.
If I were in charge of valve, this would definitely be getting handled differently. I know eveyone likes to blather on about class action lawsuits, but in this case, it very well could actualy apply. You have a company that made hundreds of millions of dollars on their games basically defrauding users out of product at worst, and simply causing the consumer hardship at best. I could very easily see lawyers getting rich while the end uysers get a check for $5 and valve winds up losing many many millions of dollars.
But a step before the class action. If you are having problems, try to contact valve's non-existant customer support. COntact your CC company and tell them you ahve been charged for a product that hasn't been delivered. they will opena case and contact vavle. THEY have access to numbers you do not. If valve gives them crap, they will just charge valve back, and this is not good for them if lots of people do it. Also, if it comes to this level of hassle, contact your state's attorney general. This isn't much different than the issues you ahve seen on the [H] with best buy and their bad practices. If enough people are calling in valve will be getting contacted by some nasty lawyers.
But a step before the class action. If you are having problems, try to contact valve's non-existant customer support. COntact your CC company and tell them you ahve been charged for a product that hasn't been delivered. they will opena case and contact vavle. THEY have access to numbers you do not. If valve gives them crap, they will just charge valve back, and this is not good for them if lots of people do it. Also, if it comes to this level of hassle, contact your state's attorney general. This isn't much different than the issues you ahve seen on the [H] with best buy and their bad practices. If enough people are calling in valve will be getting contacted by some nasty lawyers.
eastvillager
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Steam works fine for me. I wish I could get ALL of my games via Steam.
On the other hand, I actually know how to use it both online and offline, and refuse to live anywhere I can't get dependable broadband. I've always got it running in the systray, so my games are *always* up to date when I want to play them. I have trouble understanding people complaining about never having to manually download and apply a patch again. I have trouble understanding people complaining about never needing media again to install your software anywhere you want to. I have trouble understanding people who actually enjoy having to have the cd in the drive for whatever game they're playing.
I haven't looked into the CC issue, but I bet that what people are seeing on their card is an authorization, not an actual charge. It is still an issue, of course, but not the end of the world. Similar problems occur with just about any online ordering system, from time to time.
Don't try explaining to people that they don't own the game. If they don't understand that already, you're not going to convince them now. At most, they own the media and the documentation they got when they bought the physical product, and an LTU/RTU for the software. They can't or won't grasp the concept of software licensing for some reason.
Ultimately, my glass of Steam is half full, while yours is half empty.
On the other hand, I actually know how to use it both online and offline, and refuse to live anywhere I can't get dependable broadband. I've always got it running in the systray, so my games are *always* up to date when I want to play them. I have trouble understanding people complaining about never having to manually download and apply a patch again. I have trouble understanding people complaining about never needing media again to install your software anywhere you want to. I have trouble understanding people who actually enjoy having to have the cd in the drive for whatever game they're playing.
I haven't looked into the CC issue, but I bet that what people are seeing on their card is an authorization, not an actual charge. It is still an issue, of course, but not the end of the world. Similar problems occur with just about any online ordering system, from time to time.
Don't try explaining to people that they don't own the game. If they don't understand that already, you're not going to convince them now. At most, they own the media and the documentation they got when they bought the physical product, and an LTU/RTU for the software. They can't or won't grasp the concept of software licensing for some reason.
Ultimately, my glass of Steam is half full, while yours is half empty.
Met-AL said:So tell me how this is FORCED when you can select wether or not you want the updates?
Are you reading my posts? Don't you see the quotes? meaning SORT OF FORCED holy crap!
Which patch did you just download when you decided to update? When you uninstall HL2 do you have to reconnect yet again and download all the patches again even though one version worked better for you than another did? No. You're FORCED to have the most updated one whether it worked better for you or not (Farcry 1.2 on ati cards for example) That last steam updated F'd up a lot of people even. Didn't me. Did others though. Maybe they were happier with the older. Diablo 2: some people like older versions that didn't weaken characters more. Maybe they don't want the new patch. You don't have that choice with steam..."FORCE"...IN QUOTES...meaning SORT OF
freakin A
eastvillager said:
Look at my last post.
And a lot stems from the same argument of music cds and MP3s. Why do I want to download music? I rather have all the artwork, liner notes, extra features than an mp3.
I would probably abandon buying games if it was only via steam like applications. I like seeing a collection of cds with cool artwork. I like getting manuals to read rather than a readme doc
It's also way easier to organize than having a bunch of files everywhere and easier (to fidn and remember) what you have and quickly reinstall if god forbid something bad happens which is easy (virus, hacked, lightning, simple update of a computer and so on)
eastvillager said:
That's great that you have that kind of choice. Unfortunately, unlike Europe, the US sucks for keeping up with broadband. The majority of this country is rural, not urbanized. Much of the country doesn't even have broadband access of any kind, save for satellite (which is still inexplicably overpriced).
I'm in a college town and up until less than a year ago, 512/256 was 90 dollars a month. Some of us can't even afford the glass, much less have it half anything.
I agree with you here, but if Valve didn't have to do so many patches, it wouldn't be that big of an issue. Take for instance other great online games such as SOF2. Two patches. Thats it. Source is on version 41 now, correct me if I am wrong.eastvillager said:
I do like the concept of Steam. I prefer it over going to the store and buying media. I also use Direct2Drive. Similar concecpt offered by GameSpy.
Yep, broadband is getting to be as important as having running water and electricity nowdays. I also refuse to live anywhere I couldn't get dependable broadband.eastvillager said:
Agromahdi123
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i hate the concept of steam, much like many of the people i know. I also hate how its incorporated, i dont mind it much, i use it sparingly to play HL2. I think the concept of steam is going to quickly move into everyhting from music to movies to regular ass old software, like Trillian. That i do not like. Right now we live in the golden age of pirating, and most people benefit from it, and businesses hate it, they still make money though, and may still earn a profit. Yet we are also in the golden age of complaining about pirating. the RIAA, MPAA, bitch and moan all the time about pirating. And most of their statistics are completely biased, and most are just assumptions. I mean do you honestly think you can count every song ever downloaded to figure out how much money your losing?, BUT the one industry i never hear bitch and moan is the gaming industry. Although im sure they frown upon it, piracy, hacking, modding, have always been part of the intrical "gamer" clique that began in the 80's. Used to be that the gaming industry recommended their users to mod games, now after GTA SA that got screwed because of a mod, we wont be seeing that anymore.But this is just a speed bump. I say screw valve over like theyve screwed you all, call your lawyers, show them you wont put up with their shit, now adays everyone complains but noone ever stands up and says, this is bullshit.
Netrat33 said:And a lot stems from the same argument of music cds and MP3s. Why do I want to download music? I rather have all the artwork, liner notes, extra features than an mp3.
I would probably abandon buying games if it was only via steam like applications. I like seeing a collection of cds with cool artwork. I like getting manuals to read rather than a readme doc
It's also way easier to organize than having a bunch of files everywhere and easier (to fidn and remember) what you have and quickly reinstall if god forbid something bad happens which is easy (virus, hacked, lightning, simple update of a computer and so on)
For new games, agreed- but IMO it's not cost effective for someone like Valve to press a bunch of CDs & print up the game manuals for something like DOD -it's a mod, and normally we'd have to download a mod *anyway* to play it.
Digital music downloads is a different animal - I've bought a few hundred songs from iTunes because a) it's convenient b) I don't want the *entire* Scorpions album, I just want 'Rock You Like a Hurricane' and c) even though the file type (AAC) is mostly proprietary to Apple and the iTunes music store, there's ways of converting the files so you're not saddled with the whole DRM nonsense...same as if you wanted to rip a CD you 'owned' on to your computer...
And album/DVD booklets & boxes are overrated IMO - I usually toss all that stuff anyway and put the discs in a big carrying case anyway...
Aelfgeft said:Let's say I go outside, set fire to the EULA, put it out by urinating on it, call them up, and tell them so.
Doesn't matter. I can do with the software what I wish. I could modify it if I have the abilities. I could give it or sell it to someone else. I can do WHATEVER I want with it. You can use all the legalese in the world.
Steam users: Currently screwed
Box buyers: Playing happily
Box buyers FTW
what are you talking about...it doesn't matter
if Valve disable your steam account you can't play shit, even if you bought it retail and have all the cds and manual and box.
I have my reciept from steam and thats all i need. Media means nothing!
also in addition to a reciept, i have my bank statements from my debit card, and a few confirmation emails from valve.
pistol222 said:
If they truly pass the cost of not pressing a cd and printing artwork: MAYBE I'll soften up to buy a game or two. But I really doubt they will. Plus they have to pay for the the traffic of the website so they'll justify charging the same.
(I don't want the entire scorpions album is funny
) I understand buying a few songs, but I usually only buy cds of bands I like anyway (Or new ones that I've heard and like most of the cd ayway)
D
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Aelfgeft said:
Ignorance is bliss, is it not?
Pretention is not, however.
He CAN do whatever he wants to software, I promise. A EULA is not going to do anything by itself. It is just as ficticious as the property we buy. If you don't believe me, check around for pirated copies of software. They're out there, and I assure you, they are breaches of the EULA, but did the EULA stop them? Of course not.
You can do whatever you want with the code, after it is on your hard drive. It is not the EULA which will step in when you go over board. It is the property owners. Just like you can reproduce and sell prints of art, you can't reproduce and sell copies of software. You don't have to sign an EULA to have an art print in your house... even though you don't OWN the intilectual property.
He CAN do whatever he wants to software, I promise. A EULA is not going to do anything by itself. It is just as ficticious as the property we buy. If you don't believe me, check around for pirated copies of software. They're out there, and I assure you, they are breaches of the EULA, but did the EULA stop them? Of course not.
You can do whatever you want with the code, after it is on your hard drive. It is not the EULA which will step in when you go over board. It is the property owners. Just like you can reproduce and sell prints of art, you can't reproduce and sell copies of software. You don't have to sign an EULA to have an art print in your house... even though you don't OWN the intilectual property.
I am happy with Steam and with CS:S. (Actually, there are times when I think the server is abusing me by directing all enemy bullets to my head and making all my bullets miss their target)
Now, having said that. Valve Fucked up (they did, so pardon my french) when HL2 came out and it seems they just did again with DOD:S. You would think they had learned by now.
Now, having said that. Valve Fucked up (they did, so pardon my french) when HL2 came out and it seems they just did again with DOD:S. You would think they had learned by now.
Funny, I bought HL2 Silver package ages ago, I never had any issues. So say as you please about the errors. I don't have them and its not related to one issue or the other as far as physical media vs virtual download.
By the way, DOD:S, needs a 6 month polishing period like CS:S had to go through. Then it'll be great, now, to me, it feels too BF like and that makes baby jesus cry.
By the way, DOD:S, needs a 6 month polishing period like CS:S had to go through. Then it'll be great, now, to me, it feels too BF like and that makes baby jesus cry.
133 said:
Um...welcome to offline mode. I'll enjoy playing, thanks.
Other people have reciepts from their credit card companies. Those are doing a hell of a lot of good. Meantime, I can install and play any other game I own lickety split. Media means everything, because EULAs are nothing but legal scare trips. How many MP3s are rotating around the internet that are in violation of copyright laws? Millions, possibly billions, possibly even trillions. But hey, having the files in your hand means nothing, as you say.
Did you entirely bypass the subject of this thread? Wow...and one guy said I was the ignorant one...to which I will say, I think I'll go play the original DoD without a single need for anything online
Aelfgeft said:
Interesting, so you can play your game without needing to go online to register now? I had the impression that the first time you install the game from a CD it still needs to go online to decrypt the contents even if you only intend to play offline.
That's odd. Cause I can take any number of the so called disks that I don't own off of my shelf clearly insert the disk that I do not own and browse the contents of the disk that I do not own on my computer. And if I so wish I can also use the contents of said disk that I do not own to play the game I do not own.PerfectCr said:
It's weird. No one has come to my door to demand they get their disk back.
It also has become evident that almost no one is clear on what the term license actually means so here's a quick update for you. A license is official or legal permission to do or OWN a specified thing.
The key term in the definition of license in this context is OWN.
When you buy a game license or an operating system license such as purchasing any Windows product you LEGALLY OWN that software, the box the cd and all the documents you purchased with it.
In respect to STEAM when you purchase HL2, CS:S, DoD:S and you DL your copy of your encrypted game media and license you OWN said item.
Disks, boxes and documentation actually do mean something. And will always mean something. If having a license didn't mean anything then the ability to drive a vehicle could be done by any moron. The title to my car wouldn't mean anything and anyone could have access to my vehicle.
All those people bitching about VALVe and STEAM denying their CC's after they hd been charged have a very good and valid reason to complain, demand their money back and hate VALVe and STEAM. They paid for a license to OWN a fucking product and did not recieve said product whether it be encrypted media on their HD or a CD in a box they picked up at the store. There is no reason to FORCE people to jump through hoops when they clearly have proof that they purchased said unimportant license. If it weren't important people wouldn't care that they were out money that they shelled out for a product from an ungrateful game developer.
Once the money has passed from your hands to the deceloper whether it be Activision, iD, Microsoft and you receive that unimportant license and media it is legally yours to OWN, they developer of the useless meaningless disks that you now OWN can NOT be taken from you. Can not be locked out, denied or otherwise stripped from you. It is ILLEGAL. That's like Chrysler coming to my house and taking my Neon from me when I have in my possesion the pink slip to said vehicle.
It is not the purcahsers fault that Gabe Newell, Taylor and the rest at VALVe are a bunch of whiney little bitches with sand in their vaginas who evidentally do not know how to run a business with any tact. VALVe and STEAM are both worthless and should go away.
First of all, the guy with the huge post ^^ 2 posts up, obviously didn't read my last post very well and certainly doesn't have a firm grasp on how typical banking transactions work. Most of the people who complain about Valve, have to fabricate details and experiment with "what if" situations just to twist it so Valve wronged them.
Whatever issue there was with these people's transaction, they haven't ACTUALLY been charged for the product. It was a Pre-Authorization HOLD for the amount, which comes off the account in a matter of days. And just for an example, a simple thing like incorrectly typing in your billing address is enough to set of the security measure to decline the transaction. But if you don't understand the need for the checks in place to verify electronic transactions, and you don't understand how credit/debit cards work, you need to go put the credit card back in daddy's wallet and return to playing tiddlywinks.
Whatever issue there was with these people's transaction, they haven't ACTUALLY been charged for the product. It was a Pre-Authorization HOLD for the amount, which comes off the account in a matter of days. And just for an example, a simple thing like incorrectly typing in your billing address is enough to set of the security measure to decline the transaction. But if you don't understand the need for the checks in place to verify electronic transactions, and you don't understand how credit/debit cards work, you need to go put the credit card back in daddy's wallet and return to playing tiddlywinks.
Aelfgeft said:
Ohhhhhhhh I am SO enjoying this. All the flak I got for pointing out that purchasing a game online means you own NOTHING. You all said it was a dial up issue. Now you see. I want to own media. I want to have it at my fingertips, ready to play, barring a patch which is a necessity of all games.
I will say it again: When you purchase a game through steam, you own nothing except a serial key that could easily be manufactured or used by someone else. Big difference than having a game installed on your computer, the discs in your house, the sticker on the case that YOU OWN.
But hey, I guess it was all just a dial up issue, right? Well, to all those Einsteins: Keep thinking that
yeah, except for the LICENSE. This argument makes no sense. You own the farkin license for the game, end of story. All you have to do is burn the discs if you want a physical copy. You're living in the dark ages man.
As far as the misfortunate billing thing. Sucks man. Hope they get that fixed fast. Let me just say that I think steam is a good thing, as a game developer anyway and that any large scale billing service will have its share of problems, especially ones people are sitting on the edges of their seats waiting for it to mess up.