Ubi: we don't see us investing hugely in a mouse and keyboard setup for Ass Creed 3

defiant007 said:
I must have missed the memo, because I played AC1, AC2 and ACB using keyboard and mouse and found the experience to be perfectly adequate and far better than having to deal with the loose and imprecise controls of a gamepad.
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Now I'm convinced you didn't even play the games haha. Ya those lock on features sure are MORE accurate with a keyboard/mouse.
 
defiant007 said:
I must have missed the memo, because I played AC1, AC2 and ACB using keyboard and mouse and found the experience to be perfectly adequate and far better than having to deal with the loose and imprecise controls of a gamepad.
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Adequate is the description I would use as well. Good enough to fulfil a need, but still not brilliant or as good as a controller. Personally I used KB+M for AC1 and controller for AC2. Loose and imprecise really doesn't make any difference for a game like this, but I find the button layout and dual analog controls to be beneficial.
 
platformer = gamepad

some games just perform better with a controller and this is one of them. what is the problem?
 
Dion said:
Now I'm convinced you didn't even play the games haha. Ya those lock on features sure are MORE accurate with a keyboard/mouse.
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Convince yourself all you want, the fact that there is a lock-on mechanic for combat does not undermine my point regarding precision of camera control with a mouse, or movement with a keyboard, nor the flexibility of being able to configure the control layout to whatever I find most comfortable :rolleyes:

Also from recollection, I never made much use of the lock-on mechanic due to how clunky it was.

Tudz said:
Adequate is the description I would use as well. Good enough to fulfil a need, but still not brilliant or as good as a controller. Personally I used KB+M for AC1 and controller for AC2. Loose and imprecise really doesn't make any difference for a game like this, but I find the button layout and dual analog controls to be beneficial.
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I didn't think I equated adequate as being inferior to a gamepad, even if you do. And quite obviously the imprecision of a gamepad does make a difference to some people even in third person games.

I don't want to fumble around with a gamepad if I don't have to, and there is absolutely nothing about third person games which in any way makes a gamepad more suitable or intuitive. Like I said earlier, I have played just about every major third person game released on PC using a k/m and the only time I have had to resort to using a gamepad is with shoddy ports where the dev has completely balked the controls (e.g. ghostbusters and force unleashed).
 
defiant007 said:
I didn't think I equated adequate as being inferior to a gamepad, even if you do. And quite obviously the imprecision of a gamepad does make a difference to some people even in third person games.

I don't want to fumble around with a gamepad if I don't have to, and there is absolutely nothing about third person games which in any way makes a gamepad more suitable or intuitive. Like I said earlier, I have played just about every major third person game released on PC using a k/m and the only time I have had to resort to using a gamepad is with shoddy ports where the dev has completely balked the controls (e.g. ghostbusters and force unleashed).
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Yeah, I was being slightly facetious with that ;) I disagree that there's nothing that makes a controller more intuitive, I think there definitely is. Even after being a PC gamer for years I appreciate the controller in many third person games.

I've never tried ghostbusters, but honestly, I think TFU really was a game that would always be better on controller than KB/M because of the way it handles (which is admittedly different to AC games). Just like I think if Ninja Gaiden were ported to PC, it'd totally suck with a KB/M.

I know it differs from person to person though, one game I used as an example earlier was Space Marine as being a third person game where a KB/M was better due to the requirement for accuracy, but I know people who actually played on PC with a controller online multiplayer and held their own against the KB/M players (which is admittedly probably because there's autoaim for controllers, but you still have to live with a lot of other flaws). That wouldn't happen in an FPS by any measure, a controller player being able to hold their own, but the further you get from first person shooter and the closer you get to third person melee, the more the tide swings until you have a large portion of gamers who find a controller more natural than a KB/M, even a gamer like me who doesn't even own a current gen console and hasn't played console games in any great capacity for some 6 years now.
 
"We're definitely supporting PC, we love PC, but I think it'll be PC with a controller."
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That sentence isn't even internally consistent, but then we're talking about Ubisoft here, how many PC gamers actually still take them seriously any more?
 
PrincessFrosty said:
That sentence isn't even internally consistent, but then we're talking about Ubisoft here, how many PC gamers actually still take them seriously any more?
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It is internally consistent to a degree, not investing much effort into kb/m isn't inherently not supporting PC. Is MS flight sim not supporting PC by focusing on flight stick controls instead of a keyboard? Is Scawan or simbin not supporting PC when they say live for speed or GTR won't have much effort on the kb/m setup and will rather be focusing on controllers and wheels?

I understand being unhappy they won't be putting effort into a standard control style of PC gamers, but at the same time it's not self contradicting to say you're supporting PC while ignoring kb/m.

It is however self contradicting to say they support PC and then fill it with shitty DRM and such.
 
Mouse and keyboard has been the standard control method for PCs pretty much as long as they've been used for gaming.

It's basically like saying you're going to "support" an Xbox game but you're not going to focus on the default Xbox controller...that's basically what most people use.

I get what you're trying to say about MS Flight Sim but that's a highly specialized simulator, where as assassins creed is a run of the mill 3rd person game which have always traditionally been controlled with mouse and keyboard on the PC.

The real kicker is that mouse/keyboard is still a more accurate way of controlling 3rd person games compared to a gamepad, by not supporting that properly they're just being retards, but then they're already pretty retarded by forcing heavy amounts of mouse acceleration in the assassin's creed games which you cannot remove, ruining most of the benefits of a mouse and making the whole game awkward to control.
 
Tudz said:
Yeah, I was being slightly facetious with that ;) I disagree that there's nothing that makes a controller more intuitive, I think there definitely is. Even after being a PC gamer for years I appreciate the controller in many third person games.

I've never tried ghostbusters, but honestly, I think TFU really was a game that would always be better on controller than KB/M because of the way it handles (which is admittedly different to AC games). Just like I think if Ninja Gaiden were ported to PC, it'd totally suck with a KB/M.

I know it differs from person to person though, one game I used as an example earlier was Space Marine as being a third person game where a KB/M was better due to the requirement for accuracy, but I know people who actually played on PC with a controller online multiplayer and held their own against the KB/M players (which is admittedly probably because there's autoaim for controllers, but you still have to live with a lot of other flaws). That wouldn't happen in an FPS by any measure, a controller player being able to hold their own, but the further you get from first person shooter and the closer you get to third person melee, the more the tide swings until you have a large portion of gamers who find a controller more natural than a KB/M, even a gamer like me who doesn't even own a current gen console and hasn't played console games in any great capacity for some 6 years now.
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I agree that it's a matter of personal preference, which is why I disagree that third person games are more intuitively played on a gamepad.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, but for what it's worth IMHO there is really no reason why changing the perspective from first person to third person alters the way in which the user controls or plays the game. It is simply a change in perspective, particularly as you note in relation to third person shooters. The mouse and keyboard still provides that advantage of being able to quickly snap to targets and rotate the view much faster than what a gamepad will allow.

I don't think that changes all that much when the game becomes focused on melee combat, people such as yourself keep saying that it does without any actual explanation as to why that is. And I don't make that assertion hypothetically, I base that on having played many such games on PC including AC 1, AC 2, ACB, Space Marine, Batman AA, Batman AC, Wolverine Origins, all the Prince of Persia games, etc etc. There is absolutely no reason why using a k/m should be any less intuitive than a gamepad, unless the developer has completely botched the controls. You mention TFU as being one such example, but that is a pretty poor example given how shockingly bad that game was as a PC port, particularly with respect to the k/m controls.

And these views don't emanate because of some aversion to things associated with consoles, I in fact use my wired 360 gamepad for 2D platformers and racing games. I also own a PS3 and 360 with which I regularly play FPS and third person games. Notwithstanding that, the experience of using a gamepad still does not feel second nature to me. So yes, I have plenty of experience playing such games using a gamepad, and even then still consider the k/m to be the superior control scheme.

I also agree with PrincessFrosty that joysticks for flight simulators and wheels/pedals for car simulators are a completely different kettle of fish given that those input devices provide very specific advantages and functionality, over and above k/m, which specific programs are designed to take advantage of. There is no specialised functionality of a gamepad inherently advantageous for playing third person games.
 
I am really pissed to see so many people saying how they don't believe that mouse and keyboard support should be included just because they don't need it. Freedom of choice for controls is one of the highlights of PC gaming and they are happy to have that choice pissed away because it doesn't affect them. Yet they would be the first to bitch when some feature is stripped that they do want.
 
Some games are definitely more geared to gamepads (like Devil May Cry 4, Street Fighter 4 or any racing game)...but I don't consider Assassin's Creed to be one of them. It seems to be solely based on preference, with no distinct advantages or disadvantages to either control method.

Personally, I played AC2 with the controller just because I played the first game on the 360 and I'm used to it, but I tried KB/M and it was perfectly viable.


Simmonz said:
I am really pissed to see so many people saying how they don't believe that mouse and keyboard support should be included just because they don't need it. Freedom of choice for controls is one of the highlights of PC gaming and they are happy to have that choice pissed away because it doesn't affect them. Yet they would be the first to bitch when some feature is stripped that they do want.
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Exactly.
 
Simmonz said:
I am really pissed to see so many people saying how they don't believe that mouse and keyboard support should be included just because they don't need it. Freedom of choice for controls is one of the highlights of PC gaming and they are happy to have that choice pissed away because it doesn't affect them. Yet they would be the first to bitch when some feature is stripped that they do want.
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Agree... I just find it humorous when other gamers think they know what is best for me. I used kb/m for 1 and 2 and found them quite enjoyable. I spend ALOT of dough buying just about every PC game that comes out, but 3 was just crossed off the list. I simply don't enjoy using a controller......No need to invest hugely in a company that doesn't invest in me.
 
I absolutely agree that 3rd person game work better on controllers than other types of game such as FPS, but I wouldn't agree that 3rd person games work better on controllers than mouse/keyboard.

Just because 3rd person games are more suited to controller than other games isn't a good reason to abandon other, better, control methods.

Both should be supported ideally, it's honestly not hard and has been standard in games for a very long time, trust Ubi to mess with that :rolleyes:
 
I had to laugh at that article Ubisoft said they love PC, sure Ubisoft we believe you. By "love" you mean forcing atrocious DRM schemes on the PC version and alienate legit customers, thats some real tough love there.

Not going to bother with Ubisoft's future titles anyway.
 
In some cases it may be better to think of your PC as a super high resolution xbox with killer anti-aliasing capabilities. I for one am grateful that should I decide to play this XBOX game, I do not have to play it on an XBOX. Win.
 
Fuck you all and your "better played with a controller anyways" crap. I've played with a M/KB my entire gaming career on the pc, and only use a joystick for flying games as it's much better than both the xbox controller/ kb/m in regards to flight sims.

I had no problem controlling the first 2 games on KB/M, why should I be forced to use a crappy controller now? Besides when I use a controller during the RARE "opportunities" I get of playing on a console I just feel like a drunk retard trying to steer and aim.
 
" I don't see us investing hugely in a mouse and keyboard setup. I think if you want to play on PC and you want to play Assassin's Creed, you have a controller."

Thats ok, because of your always on internet policy and now your lack of mouse and keyboard support I don't see a lot of reason to buy your games. ~grin~ Haven't played an AC game yet anyway.
 
Any developer who states they're developing for PC...with a CONSOLE CONTROLLER...should be shot on sight. That's a crock of bullshit and they shouldn't even bother, because I won't be buying their garbage anyway.
 
defiant007 said:
I don't think that changes all that much when the game becomes focused on melee combat, people such as yourself keep saying that it does without any actual explanation as to why that is.
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I did actually give a rundown of why I think its that way on the previous page. 2 reasons basically...

I personally find it more natural to control a 3rd person melee game with a controller because it has dual analog input. Mouse and keyboard is 1 analog and 1 digital input. I feel that gives the controller greater control independantly of your character's direction and separately the camera's position. So when I'm in a fight and say want the camera looking at one opponent and then roll away from them, but slightly to the right, then swing a sword at another guy who's slightly left and down, then jump on a crate that's forward and right, I just find that easier to do on a controller where I have continuous analog control over the direction I'm telling the character to go as well as how fast I'm telling them how to go rather than the discrete button presses of WASD.

The 2nd reason is that 3rd person melee games often rely on linking combinations of attacks, blocks dodges and jumps. You said that TFU had bad keyboard support, maybe it did I didn't really play it a lot on kb/m before buying a controller, however I don't think the game could ever have "good" kb/m control because of the nature of how you have to play it on the harder difficulty levels. The game relies heavily on jumping and dodging followed up by lightning or pushes or saber throws and combo attacks. On KB/M, (I find at least) its simply difficult to link those sorts of actions together while maintaining control over my character. That's why I think TFU was hard on KB/M compared to a controller, maybe it just had bad controls as you say, but personally I think it is just too ambitious to expect to be able to do all that on a KB/M. Even though the 360 controller has 4 buttons on the thumb and 4 "trigger" buttons compared to the plethora of buttons available on keyboard, its simply easier (IMO) to link timed button presses together on the controller. A combo like XXY (saber lightning combo) bumper (dash) A (jump) bumper (dash) trigger+B (AOE force push) all while controlling your character's direction with the left stick is quite trivial on controller, despite requiring 6 separate buttons and one button hold not including what you're doing on the left analog stick to control direction. You need some practice in the game to know the timing and spacing of how to press the buttons and which direction you should be pointing, but the muscle-memory required is trivial compared to trying to link left/right mouse clicks with various keyboard presses while maintaining control of your character with WASD and mouse movements. Using TFU as an example again, when I went to a controller from kbm I found the biggest difference was being able to bounce around like a rabbit while still being able to do dashes to keep my distance and still be able to do force and saber attacks, meaning I was taking far less damage while still dishing out just as much compared to kbm.

The faster a game is and the more it relies on combinations of attacks/dodges/jumps/blocks the more the difference is noticable, at least to me. That's why I think a game like Ninja Gaiden would never work on kbm.

Also why I think a game like AC is perfectly playable on kbm, but still more natural on controller.

I also agree with PrincessFrosty that joysticks for flight simulators and wheels/pedals for car simulators are a completely different kettle of fish given that those input devices provide very specific advantages and functionality, over and above k/m, which specific programs are designed to take advantage of. There is no specialised functionality of a gamepad inherently advantageous for playing third person games.
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Yeah I get what you guys mean, I guess my point was more that a developer deciding that one control method is better for their games and focusing on that doesn't inherently mean they aren't supporting PC. It feels more like not supporting those specific gamers who like KB/M than not supporting PC gaming in general. There were plenty of PC gamers playing racing games with KB/M long before games like Live for Speed and GTR came along and basically told gamers, no, we wont be wasting time implementing keyboard controls that are good enough for you to beat a wheel user. They could have done what a plethora of racing games have done in the past and figured out the traction limits of the cars and then implemented speed sensitive steering on keyboard, thus making KB/M play viable (it has nothing to do with it being a racing simulator and everything to do with them not wanting to implement well thought out speed sensitive steering, a requirement for controlling a car with a keyboard).

I can understand you feeling gibbed by not having KB/M support when that's how you like to play, but I guess I don't see it as inherently anti-PC so don't feel the need to protest by not buying the game. Always on DRM and unneccesary simplification due to not having KB/M support I'd see as anti-PC and might get up the motivation to protest ;)
 
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Only thing I can use my XBOX controller for is twin stick shooters and racing games. Anything more advanced than that requires me to be able to wrap my arthritic fingers around hard plastic which isn't enjoyable. The two top shoulder buttons are nearly impossible to use. So yea it's Mouse + KB for me.
 
CrimsonKnight13 said:
Sad as that may be, I use a wireless 360 controller for games like that. I can't say that I'm surprised by Ubisoft's general attitude towards PC gamers. They don't have a great track record with game releases that recognize the PC as a flagship gaming platform.
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Agreed. Buy a 360 wireless controller with the little receiver and be done with it. 3rd person games just don't work as well without a controller in my opinion.
 
Godmachine said:
Agreed. Buy a 360 wireless controller with the little receiver and be done with it. 3rd person games just don't work as well without a controller in my opinion.
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This, i'm quite happy with my 360 controller on my pc. Still beats the hell out of the graphics on the 360. 3rd person games anymore are all on my pc with a xbox controller.
 
Godmachine said:
Agreed. Buy a 360 wireless controller with the little receiver and be done with it. 3rd person games just don't work as well without a controller in my opinion.
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Having the Play & Charge kit with it works even better. :) I tried play Assassin's Creed 1 & 2 with KB/M & I was struggling to get it exactly how I wanted it to be. After that I went with the 360 controller & I was gaming with ease. I prefer KB/M for RPGs, RTSs, & FPSs. 3rd person action/adventure games feel more natural with a controller.
 
What I don't get is why significant effort would need to be applied to achieve decent kb/m support anyway. I'm no programming expert (yet!) but I would think that a layer of event handlers to translate input based on control scheme wouldn't be all that hard to implement, if you design that way from the start. Then, as long as the control scheme is variable, which I'd think is as simple as not making them constant or hiding them as private, all you have to do is provide a basic GUI for modifying them. Hell, a lot of us would be fine with a config file where we can set them.

I don't know how hard raw mouse input would be but the only complications I can think of would come from them designing the system from the start to handle very specific input, and then had to work around it later to provide support.

I feel like this is very similar to fov. I refuse to believe that providing an fov slider would take a decent game programmer more than 4-5 hours to implement and the cost of not doing so is pissing off 1/2 of PC gamers.
 
Godmachine said:
Agreed. Buy a 360 wireless controller with the little receiver and be done with it. 3rd person games just don't work as well without a controller in my opinion.
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But that is just an opinion. Essentially, the game requires accessories. The only games you can get away with needing accessories for on the PC are sims. Even then, those games can be played with kb+m.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
But that is just an opinion. Essentially, the game requires accessories. The only games you can get away with needing accessories for on the PC are sims. Even then, those games can be played with kb+m.
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You mean all kinds of games right? Because I don't just use my 360 controller for just 3rd person games.. I also use it for MAME and various other emulation programs. I use it for racing games as well since I've been too cheap to buy an actual wheel. There are plenty of third person games on the PC that would easily justify the cost of the 360 wireless controller setup.

If you are playing Ass Creed with a KB/M then your missing out on better/smoother controls of an actual controller.
 
Ryan711 said:
That's the kind of game better played with a controller anyway.
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I completely disagree with that. I found the Batman games, Mass Effect games, etc. to all be better with a keyboard and mouse.

Godmachine said:
Agreed. Buy a 360 wireless controller with the little receiver and be done with it. 3rd person games just don't work as well without a controller in my opinion.
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The keyboard and mouse is more precise and faster. How does this NOT work?
 
Dan_D said:
I completely disagree with that. I found the Batman games, Mass Effect games, etc. to all be better with a keyboard and mouse.
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I'm divided on those 2 series. I used a controller with Batman AA & AC (no guns - needed smooth analog control) but used KB/M with ME1/2/3 (tons of guns - needed precision).
 
CrimsonKnight13 said:
I'm divided on those 2 series. I used a controller with Batman AA & AC (no guns - needed smooth analog control) but used KB/M with ME1/2/3 (tons of guns - needed precision).
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I just used mouse and keyboard for both. I'd agree that the controller worked better for Batman than it does Mass Effect, but still I always prefer the mouse and keyboard. It still feels faster and more fluid that way. Controllers always feel so slow even with the sensitivity cranked up.
 
Godmachine said:
You mean all kinds of games right? Because I don't just use my 360 controller for just 3rd person games.. I also use it for MAME and various other emulation programs. I use it for racing games as well since I've been too cheap to buy an actual wheel. There are plenty of third person games on the PC that would easily justify the cost of the 360 wireless controller setup.

If you are playing Ass Creed with a KB/M then your missing out on better/smoother controls of an actual controller.
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It really doesn't matter what you prefer, it matters what potential customers prefer. Third person games work just fine on a kb+m, and they always have. Take Arkham City (Mass Effects, Gothics, The Witchers, etc..) the controls actually work very well either way.

Your argument is that controller is better for YOU, so nobody else should complain... do you see what's wrong with your logic?
 
LeninGHOLA said:
It really doesn't matter what you prefer, it matters what potential customers prefer. Third person games work just fine on a kb+m, and they always have. Take Arkham City (Mass Effects, Gothics, The Witchers, etc..) the controls actually work very well either way.

Your argument is that controller is better for YOU, so nobody else should complain... do you see what's wrong with your logic?
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I dont' see why the control scheme can't be done for both. If you are going to release a game on the PC platform, you should support what all computers have. A mouse and keyboard.
 
The real problem here is, why have perfectly adequate KB&M controls in AC, AC2, AC:B and AC:R, then just totally ditch it for AC3?

Dan_D said:
I dont' see why the control scheme can't be done for both. If you are going to release a game on the PC platform, you should support what all computers have. A mouse and keyboard.
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Exactly. There is NO reason why they can't do this other than being lazy and trying to release a direct console port.
 
Dan_D said:
I just used mouse and keyboard for both. I'd agree that the controller worked better for Batman than it does Mass Effect, but still I always prefer the mouse and keyboard. It still feels faster and more fluid that way. Controllers always feel so slow even with the sensitivity cranked up.
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There is definitely loss of precision with them but in some cases, controllers can be just as fast with certain movements (not aiming though...).
 
LeninGHOLA said:
It really doesn't matter what you prefer, it matters what potential customers prefer. Third person games work just fine on a kb+m, and they always have. Take Arkham City (Mass Effects, Gothics, The Witchers, etc..) the controls actually work very well either way.

Your argument is that controller is better for YOU, so nobody else should complain... do you see what's wrong with your logic?
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I see that there is a way around the typical failings of a company like Ubisoft who suddenly decides that its not worth investing time in making sure both sides are pleased.

If Ubisoft isn't going to offer a logical path that at this point is to be expected in any game developed for this platform than the user is left to find a solution. I (and I'm far from alone on this) find that controllers tend to give better and more precise control in 3rd person games and instead of complaining about something I have little control over (Ubisoft's design choice) I would prefer to use something I know works and will be supported. Ass Creed 2 had virtually no proper 360 pad support from what I remember and I also remember some out cry because of that.

Does that suddenly mean everyone in the world is thus required to buy one (a control pad) and exclusively use it for such? No , you've missed my point entirely then if that's what you got out of my posts.

Ubisoft is well known for giving PC gamers the minimal treatment because they seem to have some kind of angst against us because of piracy. They've implemented draconian DRM schemes over the past few years that have soured many a user and have even driven PC gamers away from any product bearing "Ubisoft" production. This kind of behavior is completely typical in nature from them.
 
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