Two years after launch Windows 11 adoption is still waaaay behind Windows 10

[DukenukemX]

I have to disagree with this part because Apple nags the shit out of you to enable iCloud sync for your home folder, and it also gives you frequent notifications about time machine if you aren't doing that, it is annoying very very annoying, and just about every Apple desktop user I know just pays the $1.99 a month for the 100GB or so of iCloud storage to make that go away so their no longer receiving the nagging messages about iCloud sync and TimeMachine sync, and then the "your iCloud is full messages" they get after enabling iCloud sync and TimeMachine to said iCloud.

His point is that the SSD can be perfectly fine and if it was removable then it can be transplanted to a new machine and never skip a beat. With soldered on SSD's, if you even look at the machine the wrong way and break it, your data is gone. The storage maybe just fine, but if the computer doesn't turn on then good luck. iCloud is a solution, to everything in the home folder but not the whole drive. The process of restoring all your data is going to take much longer, and still be inferior to just removing a M.2 drive and placing it into a new machine. I can take that M.2 and place it into an entirely new and better machine and still continue to use it without skipping a beat. Yes, backups are good, you should always backup, but hardly anyone does this. This is why so many iPhones are getting repaired, not because people intend to use the phone when fixed, but because they had photos they wanted and they weren't anywhere near a service to have iCloud back it up.

 

[Shoganai]

His point is that the SSD can be perfectly fine and if it was removable then it can be transplanted to a new machine and never skip a beat. With soldered on SSD's, if you even look at the machine the wrong way and break it, your data is gone. The storage maybe just fine, but if the computer doesn't turn on then good luck. iCloud is a solution, to everything in the home folder but not the whole drive. The process of restoring all your data is going to take much longer, and still be inferior to just removing a M.2 drive and placing it into a new machine. I can take that M.2 and place it into an entirely new and better machine and still continue to use it without skipping a beat. Yes, backups are good, you should always backup, but hardly anyone does this. This is why so many iPhones are getting repaired, not because people intend to use the phone when fixed, but because they had photos they wanted and they weren't anywhere near a service to have iCloud back it up.

WTF? "But does anyone actually do this?" Is that your argument? Really? I believe that nearly everyone on this website already practices regular backup habits. Furthermore, if your hard drive fails in a Windows PC, you encounter the same issue. Data loss doesn't discriminate between PC and Mac users. Is it preferable to have a non-soldered internal drive? Absolutely. However, your arguments against it lack any logical basis. And no, the data restoration process is not time-consuming at all. With Time Machine, you simply select the backup during your OS installation, and you're good to go. If you use a tool like Acronis on Windows, you can easily restore your system to its previous state. There are numerous options available for data backups and restoration, rendering this argument irrelevant. The bottom line is: back up your files, regardless of your choice of computer.

 

[DukenukemX]

WTF? "But does anyone actually do this?" Is that your argument? Really?

The 2022 Backup Survey: 54% Report Data Loss With Only 10% Backing Up Daily. Of those people, 20% never backup. From my experience, it's nearly never.
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/the-...port-data-loss-with-only-10-backing-up-daily/

I believe that nearly everyone on this website already practices regular backup habits.

Pretty sure most people here probably do, but we're talking about people in general.

Furthermore, if your hard drive fails in a Windows PC, you encounter the same issue. Data loss doesn't discriminate between PC and Mac users.

If a Windows PC fails, there's a fairly good chance the SSD is fine. If a Mac fails, you're screwed unless you have a backup. Also, keep in mind that Apple's SSD design is shit. When an SSD fails on a Macbook, because it is a wear item, it shorts to ground, as most electronic components do. Little trick for you if you are trying to fix an electronic component, in that when things fail they short. So a bad SSD can break the machine as well. If that were the case for a Windows PC, I can take out the SSD and see if the PC posts. Sure the data maybe gone, but the expensive PC now boots and a replacement SSD is like $60.

Is it preferable to have a non-soldered internal drive? Absolutely. However, your arguments against it lack any logical basis.

What logical basis? It's better to have a removable drive because it makes everyone's lives easier. It prevents e-waste, it makes it easier to diagnose what happened, it allows the user to get everything working quicker.

And no, the data restoration process is not time-consuming at all. With Time Machine, you simply select the backup during your OS installation, and you're good to go. If you use a tool like Acronis on Windows, you can easily restore your system to its previous state. There are numerous options available for data backups and restoration, rendering this argument irrelevant. The bottom line is: back up your files, regardless of your choice of computer.

Yes Time Machine will restore all your data, but not from iCloud. From iCloud it's only what you have in the documents folder. No apps and nothing outside of the home folder. Windows doesn't do a better job, but again the SSD is removable.

 

[MrGuvernment]

The 2022 Backup Survey: 54% Report Data Loss With Only 10% Backing Up Daily. Of those people, 20% never backup. From my experience, it's nearly never.
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/the-...port-data-loss-with-only-10-backing-up-daily/

Pretty sure most people here probably do, but we're talking about people in general.

If a Windows PC fails, there's a fairly good chance the SSD is fine. If a Mac fails, you're screwed unless you have a backup. Also, keep in mind that Apple's SSD design is shit. When an SSD fails on a Macbook, because it is a wear item, it shorts to ground, as most electronic components do. Little trick for you if you are trying to fix an electronic component, in that when things fail they short. So a bad SSD can break the machine as well. If that were the case for a Windows PC, I can take out the SSD and see if the PC posts. Sure the data maybe gone, but the expensive PC now boots and a replacement SSD is like $60.

What logical basis? It's better to have a removable drive because it makes everyone's lives easier. It prevents e-waste, it makes it easier to diagnose what happened, it allows the user to get everything working quicker.

Yes Time Machine will restore all your data, but not from iCloud. From iCloud it's only what you have in the documents folder. No apps and nothing outside of the home folder. Windows doesn't do a better job, but again the SSD is removable.

The SSD is only removable depending on what device you bought. Dell/ HP and other OEM's all have similar models where the drive is soldered in. The reason for this is size. adding the connecting slot adds height to a motherboard for the slot and the locking mechanisms, thus, soldering it to the board, removes both.

yes it sucks, and yes, Apple mostly does this for their claims of "stability" crap to make money, but as noted, other windows based OEM's also do this.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

yes it sucks, and yes, Apple mostly does this for their claims of "stability" crap to make money, but as noted, other windows based OEM's also do this.

In the case of Apple, it's because the controller for the SSD is actually part of the ARM chip. By system on a chip (SoC), it really is everything. CPU/GPU, RAM, all of the controllers (PCI-E lanes etc). The "SSD" is literally 1 or 2 SSD chips soldered onto their respective parts of the motherboard. There is no 'controller'.

Similarly, the RAM is part of the CPU package. There are benefits and downsides to both. While it's obvious what the downsides of having soldered in RAM/SSD, PC heads don't want to talk about the benefits.

 

[M76]

This is a whole lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing.

That's a funny way of saying: I don't have any counters, therefore I concede to your points.

 

[M76]

I have to disagree with this part because Apple nags the shit out of you to enable iCloud sync for your home folder, and it also gives you frequent notifications about time machine if you aren't doing that, it is annoying very very annoying, and just about every Apple desktop user I know just pays the $1.99 a month for the 100GB or so of iCloud storage to make that go away so their no longer receiving the nagging messages about iCloud sync and TimeMachine sync, and then the "your iCloud is full messages" they get after enabling iCloud sync and TimeMachine to said iCloud.

But you are still not arguing the point I made. The original point I made was that having backups is no excuse for apple's shitty anti-repair antics. How does nagging to make backups counter any of that? None of you could counter that so you all started moving the goalposts into some backup vs. no backup argument instead. Classic case of a strawman argument.

Yes, you should make backups if you value your data, but that is not carte blanche for apple to make their systems even less repairable and the data savable in case someone doesn't have a backup.

 

[Lakados]

But you are still not arguing the point I made. The original point I made was that having backups is no excuse for apple's shitty anti-repair antics. How does nagging to make backups counter any of that? None of you could counter that so you all started moving the goalposts into some backup vs. no backup argument instead. Classic case of a strawman argument.

Yes, you should make backups if you value your data, but that is not carte blanche for apple to make their systems even less repairable and the data savable in case someone doesn't have a backup.

It's shitty that consumers can't but it's also 100% irrelevant for every person I know and work with, because even if we could nothing could be recovered as everything we run is encrypted in a non-reversible manner, so if the system pops that M.2 or SATA can be at best formatted and reused in another machine but the data is gone. Backups only, and between iCloud and Sharepoint you are out at worst a few hours, generally 15 min worth of work.
And you are talking about repairability on a machine when the general PC owner at this stage still struggles to find the power buttons, so they take them elsewhere.
It's shitty for enthusiasts, convenient for consumers.

And the backup no backup argument you started complaining about how you can't remove the drives, which even if you could are encrypted by default so it would be useless unless the user chooses to rebuild the machine from the recovery mode and choose to reinstall using no encryption before they get started with the machines. Which most Mac Users don't know how to do, hell most PC users don't know how to install an OS either, so I can't really hold that against the Apple users. So I suppose you could say that Apple is being more anti-self-repair by using non-reversible local encryption by default or is that just a security thing, but most security features are inherently anti-user so but that is another altogether.

So I'm not saying it isn't shitty, it's just easily mitigated and completely irrelevant, but my view is probably skewed because as policy nobody here has anything that is worked on locally on the machines and all their local working folders are actually on the SharePoint and synced as things are saved real-time because we can't pull the drives on anything because of the encryption policies.

So I struggle to remember how the rest of the world actually operates at times, because my user base is weird from how do I turn this on and which way does this cable plug in, to yeah I know how to do this followed by an SoS 2h later when they very much don't have that.

 

[Camberwell]

Yikes:

Tested: Windows 11 Pro's On-By-Default Encryption Slows SSDs Up to 45%​

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/windows-software-bitlocker-slows-performance

 

[Shoganai]

That's a funny way of saying: I don't have any counters, therefore I concede to your points.

No, it was correct the first time.

 

[Lakados]

Yikes:

Tested: Windows 11 Pro's On-By-Default Encryption Slows SSDs Up to 45%​

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/windows-software-bitlocker-slows-performance

That tracks with what we have seen for our machines, I didn't realize that somehow hardware-based encryption was supposedly faster than non-encrypted, I just assumed it was slower by just such a small amount we just didn't notice it, but software-based is noticeably slower and if you are using software-based over a network share, you have far more patience than I, because after 2 weeks of that I was on what can only be described as a fanatical quest to end that problem.

 

[DukenukemX]

Similarly, the RAM is part of the CPU package. There are benefits and downsides to both. While it's obvious what the downsides of having soldered in RAM/SSD, PC heads don't want to talk about the benefits.

Let me ask you something, what is the fastest computer? The desktop machine with removable RAM and removable SSD or the Macbook with soldered ram and soldered SSD? The desktop PC has been tested faster, including the x86 laptops also with removable ram and SSD. While there are benefits to having soldered ram like LPDDR, because it sits closer to the SoC which reduces latency and power consumption, that is not the case with SSD. Those NAND chips are sitting very far away from the SoC. The answer is almost always because it's cheaper and forces consumers to buy more expensive models.

The SSD is only removable depending on what device you bought. Dell/ HP and other OEM's all have similar models where the drive is soldered in. The reason for this is size. adding the connecting slot adds height to a motherboard for the slot and the locking mechanisms, thus, soldering it to the board, removes both.

yes it sucks, and yes, Apple mostly does this for their claims of "stability" crap to make money, but as noted, other windows based OEM's also do this.

Then don't buy them. With Apple you don't have a choice if you intend to stick with Apple, but with Windows PC's there are plenty of vendors who sell laptops with removable ram and ssd, but they're usually not the cheapest. As a reminder, Apple lost 23% of sales last quarter, which is much more than any other PC vendor. Since you mentioned Dell, they're sitting at a loss of 14%.

It's shitty for enthusiasts, convenient for consumers.

It's only convenient when nothing goes wrong. When something does and it will, then the answer is getting a new motherboard because everything is soldered onto the board.

 

[M76]

It's shitty that consumers can't but it's also 100% irrelevant for every person I know and work with, because even if we could nothing could be recovered as everything we run is encrypted in a non-reversible manner, so if the system pops that M.2 or SATA can be at best formatted and reused in another machine but the data is gone. Backups only, and between iCloud and Sharepoint you are out at worst a few hours, generally 15 min worth of work.
And you are talking about repairability on a machine when the general PC owner at this stage still struggles to find the power buttons, so they take them elsewhere.
It's shitty for enthusiasts, convenient for consumers.

Lack of reparability is shitty for everyone. The average mac consumer probably doesn't even own a screwdriver. But if their computer brakes it does matter if it can be repaired for a few hundred $ or needs the entire MB replaced with the SSD, RAM, everything soldered to it, for thousands.

And the backup no backup argument you started complaining about how you can't remove the drives, which even if you could are encrypted by default so it would be useless unless the user chooses to rebuild the machine from the recovery mode and choose to reinstall using no encryption before they get started with the machines. Which most Mac Users don't know how to do, hell most PC users don't know how to install an OS either, so I can't really hold that against the Apple users. So I suppose you could say that Apple is being more anti-self-repair by using non-reversible local encryption by default or is that just a security thing, but most security features are inherently anti-user so but that is another altogether.

I'm sorry, I was not aware that Apple encrypts the drives by default. But that doesn't help the lack of reparability which is the crux of my problem with apple. Swapping drives is just one example of something I can easily do on PC, which impossible on Apple, for multiple reasons it seems.

So I'm not saying it isn't shitty, it's just easily mitigated and completely irrelevant, but my view is probably skewed because as policy nobody here has anything that is worked on locally on the machines and all their local working folders are actually on the SharePoint and synced as things are saved real-time because we can't pull the drives on anything because of the encryption policies.

As I've mentioned syncing is not viable for me, because a single sync of the data would take days. Or if I worked directly from the share then the processing I do would take 5-10x longer. So what I do is work locally until the final dataset is ready, and then upload that to the share. Yes there is a risk of data loss if the work drive dies during the process, but all I loose is intermediate data that can be replaced by processing the raw data again. So even in the worst case scenario I'd still be ahead with this method.

So I struggle to remember how the rest of the world actually operates at times, because my user base is weird from how do I turn this on and which way does this cable plug in, to yeah I know how to do this followed by an SoS 2h later when they very much don't have that.

I don't presume that my way of doing things should be the norm, but this is how I do it, because this works best for me. If there is a better way I have not found it yet.

 

[Lakados]

Let me ask you something, what is the fastest computer? The desktop machine with removable RAM and removable SSD or the Macbook with soldered ram and soldered SSD? The desktop PC has been tested faster, including the x86 laptops also with removable ram and SSD. While there are benefits to having soldered ram like LPDDR, because it sits closer to the SoC which reduces latency and power consumption, that is not the case with SSD. Those NAND chips are sitting very far away from the SoC. The answer is almost always because it's cheaper and forces consumers to buy more expensive models.
View attachment 607888
View attachment 607889


Then don't buy them. With Apple you don't have a choice if you intend to stick with Apple, but with Windows PC's there are plenty of vendors who sell laptops with removable ram and ssd, but they're usually not the cheapest. As a reminder, Apple lost 23% of sales last quarter, which is much more than any other PC vendor. Since you mentioned Dell, they're sitting at a loss of 14%.

It's only convenient when nothing goes wrong. When something does and it will, then the answer is getting a new motherboard because everything is soldered onto the board.

Yeah but if you paid for the Apple Care they just swap it. Which I know is another cost, but the $400 for the 5 year coverage is well annoying as fuck but use it once and it’s more than paid for itself. I mean the CFO’s kid dumped a pitcher of water on his and Apples response was your refurbished unit is in the mail, put that one in its box, return shipping is attached. So can’t complain on that front, and yeah after 5 years your on your own, and that’s when these things are going to kick a lot of people in the teeth because you can’t keep them for a decade any more. But that where’s Apple market shift is a thing, they want consumers on the iPads, they want professionals on the MacBooks. Which is more anti repair because even the soldered everything is easier to work on than an iPad, but at least iPads are relatively cheap.

I’ve just been doing this too long, I have a hard time seeing computers as toys and now they are just a utility, they might as well just be a refrigerator or a washing machine. They do the thing till they don’t, and every now and then you have somebody with more money than sense and they want the pink one to match their kitchen tiles.

But lately when I get asked about my laptop is old and I want a new one, and when I ask what they use it for and what they want it for, far more often than not the answer is well you can do all that on an iPad Air with a Logitech Keyboard case and call it a day.

 

[Lakados]

Lack of reparability is shitty for everyone. The average mac consumer probably doesn't even own a screwdriver. But if their computer brakes it does matter if it can be repaired for a few hundred $ or needs the entire MB replaced with the SSD, RAM, everything soldered to it, for thousands.

I'm sorry, I was not aware that Apple encrypts the drives by default. But that doesn't help the lack of reparability which is the crux of my problem with apple. Swapping drives is just one example of something I can easily do on PC, which impossible on Apple, for multiple reasons it seems.

As I've mentioned syncing is not viable for me, because a single sync of the data would take days. Or if I worked directly from the share then the processing I do would take 5-10x longer. So what I do is work locally until the final dataset is ready, and then upload that to the share. Yes there is a risk of data loss if the work drive dies during the process, but all I loose is intermediate data that can be replaced by processing the raw data again. So even in the worst case scenario I'd still be ahead with this method.

I don't presume that my way of doing things should be the norm, but this is how I do it, because this works best for me. If there is a better way I have not found it yet.

That’s the crux of it I don’t see MacBooks as consumer devices any more it seems, that’s what I’ve come to realize over these past few pages. That’s a me problem because it means I’m loosing touch with a few things, and now I just have Danny Glover’s “I’m too Old for this shit” playing in my head on repeat. Because I mean Apple very much sells them to the average Joe, and it’s their right to buy them if they want, but it Jane wanting a MacBook Pro to watch YouTube and write Facebook posts reads the same to me as Karen needing an F350 to drive her kids to Soccer.

 

[Lakados]

As I've mentioned syncing is not viable for me, because a single sync of the data would take days. Or if I worked directly from the share then the processing I do would take 5-10x longer. So what I do is work locally until the final dataset is ready, and then upload that to the share. Yes there is a risk of data loss if the work drive dies during the process, but all I loose is intermediate data that can be replaced by processing the raw data again. So even in the worst case scenario I'd still be ahead with this method.

I was under the mistaken impression that RDMA-capable networking equipment was far more prevalent than it actually is, so that is on me. Syncing Large data sets that don't completely fit in RAM isn't really feasible without it.

 

[DukenukemX]

Yeah but if you paid for the Apple Care they just swap it. Which I know is another cost, but the $400 for the 5 year coverage is well annoying as fuck but use it once and it’s more than paid for itself. I mean the CFO’s kid dumped a pitcher of water on his and Apples response was your refurbished unit is in the mail, put that one in its box, return shipping is attached. So can’t complain on that front, and yeah after 5 years your on your own, and that’s when these things are going to kick a lot of people in the teeth because you can’t keep them for a decade any more. But that where’s Apple market shift is a thing, they want consumers on the iPads, they want professionals on the MacBooks. Which is more anti repair because even the soldered everything is easier to work on than an iPad, but at least iPads are relatively cheap.

If you factor $400 to the purchase, then it isn't cheap. It also sounds like a solution to a problem Apple created. Also if the laptop came with 1TB and it fails, I can always upgrade to 2TB for much less than $400. Also how did this turn in an Apple praise thread when this was about Windows 11 sucking... I mean lack of adoption?

 

[Lakados]

If you factor $400 to the purchase, then it isn't cheap. It also sounds like a solution to a problem Apple created. Also if the laptop came with 1TB and it fails, I can always upgrade to 2TB for much less than $400. Also how did this turn in an Apple praise thread when this was about Windows 11 sucking... I mean lack of adoption?

No clue, but I can say for certain I have used way worse OS’s than 11. On my gaming rig I use 11 and it’s fine, for what I use it for there aren’t any changes I’d actually make I wish I could figure out why Epic launcher stops it from going to sleep, I checked it’s not broadcasting anything but if it’s running it doesn’t sleep and that bothers me, if I put it to sleep it stays asleep but the Epic launcher somehow messes with its ability to go to sleep.
But Windows 11 is middle of the road, it doesn’t offer anything standout nor does it have any glaring flaws, it’s the Toyota Camery of the OS world.

 

[M76]

I was under the mistaken impression that RDMA-capable networking equipment was far more prevalent than it actually is, so that is on me. Syncing Large data sets that don't completely fit in RAM isn't really feasible without it.

Frankly we'd need a complete overhaul of our entire networking. But it's unlikely since there is no direct ROI on something like that.

 

[DukenukemX]

No clue, but I can say for certain I have used way worse OS’s than 11. On my gaming rig I use 11 and it’s fine, for what I use it for there aren’t any changes I’d actually make I wish I could figure out why Epic launcher stops it from going to sleep, I checked it’s not broadcasting anything but if it’s running it doesn’t sleep and that bothers me, if I put it to sleep it stays asleep but the Epic launcher somehow messes with its ability to go to sleep.
But Windows 11 is middle of the road, it doesn’t offer anything standout nor does it have any glaring flaws, it’s the Toyota Camery of the OS world.

To be honest, there isn't such a thing as a bad Windows OS with the exception of Windows 8. The user interface of Windows 8 was just too terrible to be usable. The problem is the ethics of newer versions of Windows. Windows 11 is perfectly fine, so long as you use it as it's meant to be used. Which means using the latest hardware with TPM2.0 and Secure Boot. For like 99.99% of people, this isn't a problem. The problem comes down to new unexplained issues that weren't there before. Every time I upgraded my version of Windows it always has new issues that weren't there before. For a lot of people, they would rather hold back the idea of upgrading since a newer version of Windows doesn't really offer anything for them. That and people really don't like changes to their UI, which Windows 11 did.

 

[lopoetve]

i'm gonna take it you know libre and open office lets you save to MS formats in the save dialog. it's too bad they don't by default but usually after the first time you change it, it stays whatever format you chose last. but i sure trying to explain that to most normies out there is like trying to teach them rocket science.

Libre can open and save Ms Office formats but on screen rendering and layout is often atrocious and not the same as in Windows in Ms Office, which is a huge problem when the expectation is that a document is identical wherever it is opened.

The file format is one issue - although you can (carefully) work around that. The other issue is that Office is paired with OneDrive/Sharepoint/teams/etc, and those are heavily tied (now) to NTFS and the windows kernel, and to a lesser extent Apple's ecosystem. That opens up the door to document management, shared simultaneous access, edit merging, legal controls and access controls, change tracking and auditing, legal holds (silently or otherwise), access tracking, and so on forever. This is the world I am starting to touch heavily, and it's not just that Libre has differences in how it saves things like powerpoint or word docs - it's that without the full stack, legal and compliance teams have an infinitely harder job to do in many fields, and there are no compatible Linux clients (other than web) for that stack. The web version works, but is lacking features (it's one place google docs is ahead of the curve if you're not a MS/Apple shop (Apple has the needed bits to make it work too)). It's a whole mess with compliance now.

No clue, but I can say for certain I have used way worse OS’s than 11. On my gaming rig I use 11 and it’s fine, for what I use it for there aren’t any changes I’d actually make I wish I could figure out why Epic launcher stops it from going to sleep, I checked it’s not broadcasting anything but if it’s running it doesn’t sleep and that bothers me, if I put it to sleep it stays asleep but the Epic launcher somehow messes with its ability to go to sleep.
But Windows 11 is middle of the road, it doesn’t offer anything standout nor does it have any glaring flaws, it’s the Toyota Camery of the OS world.

11 is fine. I agree with basically this whole post - I have it on a 12900 box and it's fine, I'm in no hurry to upgrade a few others I have (no need; hardware hits EOL before 10 hits EOS in many cases, or for others it's an "I'll get to it when I get to it").

To be honest, there isn't such a thing as a bad Windows OS with the exception of Windows 8. The user interface of Windows 8 was just too terrible to be usable. The problem is the ethics of newer versions of Windows. Windows 11 is perfectly fine, so long as you use it as it's meant to be used. Which means using the latest hardware with TPM2.0 and Secure Boot. For like 99.99% of people, this isn't a problem. The problem comes down to new unexplained issues that weren't there before. Every time I upgraded my version of Windows it always has new issues that weren't there before. For a lot of people, they would rather hold back the idea of upgrading since a newer version of Windows doesn't really offer anything for them. That and people really don't like changes to their UI, which Windows 11 did.

8 was fine on a touch screen (and that was it). 8.1 was... fine on anything else. Not great, not terrible. My issues with the Win 11 UI (context menus, minor details) can be fixed now easily enough. Just no compelling reason to make a move on my windows boxes yet.

 

[ZodaEX]

The file format is one issue - although you can (carefully) work around that. The other issue is that Office is paired with OneDrive/Sharepoint/teams/etc, and those are heavily tied (now) to NTFS and the windows kernel, and to a lesser extent Apple's ecosystem. That opens up the door to document management, shared simultaneous access, edit merging, legal controls and access controls, change tracking and auditing, legal holds (silently or otherwise), access tracking, and so on forever. This is the world I am starting to touch heavily, and it's not just that Libre has differences in how it saves things like powerpoint or word docs - it's that without the full stack, legal and compliance teams have an infinitely harder job to do in many fields, and there are no compatible Linux clients (other than web) for that stack. The web version works, but is lacking features (it's one place google docs is ahead of the curve if you're not a MS/Apple shop (Apple has the needed bits to make it work too)). It's a whole mess with compliance now.

11 is fine. I agree with basically this whole post - I have it on a 12900 box and it's fine, I'm in no hurry to upgrade a few others I have (no need; hardware hits EOL before 10 hits EOS in many cases, or for others it's an "I'll get to it when I get to it").

8 was fine on a touch screen (and that was it). 8.1 was... fine on anything else. Not great, not terrible. My issues with the Win 11 UI (context menus, minor details) can be fixed now easily enough. Just no compelling reason to make a move on my windows boxes yet.

In what way was 8 fine on a touchscreen? Can you elaborate on that assertion?

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

The file format is one issue - although you can (carefully) work around that. The other issue is that Office is paired with OneDrive/Sharepoint/teams/etc, and those are heavily tied (now) to NTFS and the windows kernel, and to a lesser extent Apple's ecosystem. That opens up the door to document management, shared simultaneous access, edit merging, legal controls and access controls, change tracking and auditing, legal holds (silently or otherwise), access tracking, and so on forever. This is the world I am starting to touch heavily, and it's not just that Libre has differences in how it saves things like powerpoint or word docs - it's that without the full stack, legal and compliance teams have an infinitely harder job to do in many fields, and there are no compatible Linux clients (other than web) for that stack. The web version works, but is lacking features (it's one place google docs is ahead of the curve if you're not a MS/Apple shop (Apple has the needed bits to make it work too)). It's a whole mess with compliance now.

Ugh, I hate all of that stuff. When people I work with insist on using Teams and OneDrive to work on documents it drives me up a wall.

I want control. Not everyone being able to mess around in a file at the same time. I also don't want my shit on Microsofts cloud. I don't trust it.

I'd much rather just work off of a static SMB network share. It pisses me off to no end that this bullshit is being forced on me.

 

[Lakados]

In what way was 8 fine on a touchscreen? Can you elaborate on that assertion?

The default screen that popped up was usable and intuitive if you could touch things, if you couldn’t it was annoying because you would try to. It screams touch me, we deployed it in a lab and 2 broke in the first month because people instinctively jabbing it then hitting it increasingly harder as the touch didn’t work. Had to put notes (Not a touch screen) across the top of each.

Super easy if you could touch but somehow ungodly frustrating if you couldn’t.

 

[Lakados]

Ugh, I hate all of that stuff. When people I work with insist on using Teams and OneDrive to work on documents it drives me up a wall.

I want control. Not everyone being able to mess around in a file at the same time. I also don't want my shit on Microsofts cloud. I don't trust it.

I'd much rather just work off of a static SMB network share. It pisses me off to no end that this bullshit is being forced on me.

I get it but I have more control over it in the cloud than I do on a basic SMB share because I can also lock down transfers to USB and offline access by devices not registered in our Office 365 Intune.

 

[GoldenTiger]

Super easy if you could touch but somehow ungodly frustrating if you couldn’t.

Odd, on windows 8 I clicked the desktop box and everything was the same as old windows from there except the full screen start menu I never used anyway (I just pressed windows key then typed a few letters and hit enter to get into programs).

I don't get why people think 8 was bad, as if 8.1 was different other than adding a cosmetic start button to the start bar on the bottom left . It functioned the same as older windows versions did except for that.

I also had a windows 8 tablet I loved.

 

[lopoetve]

Ugh, I hate all of that stuff. When people I work with insist on using Teams and OneDrive to work on documents it drives me up a wall.

I want control. Not everyone being able to mess around in a file at the same time. I also don't want my shit on Microsofts cloud. I don't trust it.

I'd much rather just work off of a static SMB network share. It pisses me off to no end that this bullshit is being forced on me.

The lawyers say "Your opinion has been noted and disregarded. Would you care to continue employment?"

Compliance is a bitch and it's only getting worse and worse. I've got customers now that MUST move to fully managed document systems - or they'll struggle getting cyber insurance. Welcome to the jungle, grab your corporate hat to the right and be a good little boy or you'll be eaten by a grue.

I need to know everyone that touched a file, when they touched it, what they viewed, if they ever hit ctrl-c on any portion of it, etc. Can't do that without a doc management system.

 

[Lakados]

The lawyers say "Your opinion has been noted and disregarded. Would you care to continue employment?"

Compliance is a bitch and it's only getting worse and worse. I've got customers now that MUST move to fully managed document systems - or they'll struggle getting cyber insurance. Welcome to the jungle, grab your corporate hat to the right and be a good little boy or you'll be eaten by a grue.

I need to know everyone that touched a file, when they touched it, what they viewed, if they ever hit ctrl-c on any portion of it, etc. Can't do that without a doc management system.

And let’s not forget full revision history for when you sent it out to them it was 3.2.2 but by the time they responded it was now 3.2.4 and that version was shared to the other people so you have 3.2.8 on screen but we haven’t yet agreed to those revisions so. So everybody needs to check them over again because HR sent them out before a full review was complete so even though the changes were its to it’s and other similar grammatical fixes you better bet your ass legal is all over that.
So let’s see the change log for 3.2.2 to 3.2.8 so we can agree to those before making the proposed changes and collectively moving this to 3.3.0.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

And let’s not forget full revision history for when you sent it out to them it was 3.2.2 but by the time they responded it was now 3.2.4 and that version was shared to the other people so you have 3.2.8 on screen but we haven’t yet agreed to those revisions so. So everybody needs to check them over again because HR sent them out before a full review was complete so even though the changes were its to it’s and other similar grammatical fixes you better bet your ass legal is all over that.
So let’s see the change log for 3.2.2 to 3.2.8 so we can agree to those before making the proposed changes and collectively moving this to 3.3.0.

I'm all for document control. That's one of the many things I do, but I'm used to reviewing, approving and controlling final revisions. The in between I couldn't give a rats ass about.

This seems like over the top micro management that is only going to piss people off.

I can see it being important for defense contracting or other classified documentation, but that is a tiny minority of all work in the economy. In the regular business world I can't imagine this would take off.

 

[lopoetve]

I'm all for document control. That's one of the many things I do, but I'm used to reviewing, approving and controlling final revisions. The in between I couldn't give a rats ass about.

This seems like over the top micro management that is only going to piss people off.

I can see it being important for defense contracting or other classified documentation, but that is a tiny minority of all work in the economy. In the regular business world I can't imagine this would take off.

Already has taken off. Compliance is a bitch - and it's rapidly spreading down from the Fortune 200 (who self-insure) to the normal companies (that buy insurance). If I have to indemnify your data handling - I need to know you can control it. And tell me what happened to it. And who touched it. And who leaked it to the Russian darkweb site.

 

[Lakados]

I'm all for document control. That's one of the many things I do, but I'm used to reviewing, approving and controlling final revisions. The in between I couldn't give a rats ass about.

This seems like over the top micro management that is only going to piss people off.

I can see it being important for defense contracting or other classified documentation, but that is a tiny minority of all work in the economy. In the regular business world I can't imagine this would take off.

Oh it pisses people off you bet your ass it does, but it also makes ownership chains incredibly clear, and the ability to set offline file restrictions for over sharing limitations and self destructing files is a saving grace in a pinch.

Have the CFO loose the USB key with all the private financial info for just the investors, no problem they need to be authenticated with O365 just to be opened otherwise they are properly encrypted so no real danger for being leaked and when somebody tries to open them the file will phone home and we can issue a self delete.

 

[lopoetve]

Oh it pisses people off you bet your ass it does, but it also makes ownership chains incredibly clear, and the ability to set offline file restrictions for over sharing limitations and self destructing files is a saving grace in a pinch.

Have the CFO loose the USB key with all the private financial info for just the investors, no problem they need to be authenticated with O365 just to be opened otherwise they are properly encrypted so no real danger for being leaked and when somebody tries to open them the file will phone home and we can issue a self delete.

Try to save that file locally? Congrats - you got an excel spreadsheet of garbage.

Try to email it? Blocked - and flagged.

Try to copy it to a production server? Blocked, flagged, and your network port shut down. And so on.

Try to SSH it out to the web? Decrypted, detected, blocked, and something else sent in its place.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Try to save that file locally? Congrats - you got an excel spreadsheet of garbage.

Try to email it? Blocked - and flagged.

Try to copy it to a production server? Blocked, flagged, and your network port shut down. And so on.

Try to SSH it out to the web? Decrypted, detected, blocked, and something else sent in its place.

This is like fucking DRM for work files.

For what it's worth, I'd never take a job in an environment like that.

Huge pain in the ass. I'll just take a job somewhere else.

It's good to know this exists. I haven't run into it anywhere yet (possibly because my line of work neither involves state secrets nor protected financial documents) so I wasn't aware. Yet another thing to ask about during interviews, so there are no surprises later on.

It would suck to take a job, only to find this crap, and immediately have to start looking for another job, because there is no way in hell I would actually stay. You couldn't pay me enough to put up with that.

 

[Lakados]

Try to save that file locally? Congrats - you got an excel spreadsheet of garbage.

Try to email it? Blocked - and flagged.

Try to copy it to a production server? Blocked, flagged, and your network port shut down. And so on.

Try to SSH it out to the web? Decrypted, detected, blocked, and something else sent in its place.

Local works as long as that machine is signed into O365 and enrolled in Intune, it’s part of the checkout process but it’s logged and has a shelf life of 48h in our case. Presentations in locations with shitty internet happens after all.

Can email copies but only documents tagged as public. The rest will follow The checkout rules above.

copies also follow the checkout rule, but most folders are edit only only select individuals can add or remove to or from folders, and those follow a checkin process.

yeah decrypt all outgoing traffic to non known sources. Like I don’t care about SSL to the banking sites, Microsoft.com, etc… trusted places but if has a DNS entry less than a month old, it’s just blocked the session dies, to a known VPN provider, denied, 6 incoming rules, edging Close to 300 outgoing ones with just short of 200 internal ones.

protecting this stuffs no joke.

 

[1_rick]

protecting this stuffs no joke.

It certainly sounds like it is, and it makes me want to move on my my next chosen career, cowboy at a dude ranch. I'm gonna be like Jack Palance in City Slickers.

 

[lopoetve]

In what way was 8 fine on a touchscreen? Can you elaborate on that assertion?

It worked and was better than 7 on a touchscreen since the start menu/etc was designed for touch (and generally tablets had a central "start" button that would bring it up)

 

[lopoetve]

This is like fucking DRM for work files.

For what it's worth, I'd never take a job in an environment like that.

Huge pain in the ass. I'll just take a job somewhere else.

This will rapidly be anywhere with reasonable revenue. Gotta have it for cyber insurance now.

It's good to know this exists. I haven't run into it anywhere yet (possibly because my line of work neither involves state secrets nor protected financial documents) so I wasn't aware. Yet another thing to ask about during interviews, so there are no surprises later on.

It would suck to take a job, only to find this crap, and immediately have to start looking for another job, because there is no way in hell I would actually stay. You couldn't pay me enough to put up with that.

Not going to have much of a choice for long - at least till we find a better answer. If I'm held financially responsible (as a corporation) for my data with the associated legal penalties and (potentially) legal fines - then I have to control my users access to said data and know what they do with it.

Local works as long as that machine is signed into O365 and enrolled in Intune, it’s part of the checkout process but it’s logged and has a shelf life of 48h in our case. Presentations in locations with shitty internet happens after all.

Can email copies but only documents tagged as public. The rest will follow The checkout rules above.

Yup. And it will track who opened it / etc.

copies also follow the checkout rule, but most folders are edit only only select individuals can add or remove to or from folders, and those follow a checkin process.

yeah decrypt all outgoing traffic to non known sources. Like I don’t care about SSL to the banking sites, Microsoft.com, etc… trusted places but if has a DNS entry less than a month old, it’s just blocked the session dies, to a known VPN provider, denied, 6 incoming rules, edging Close to 300 outgoing ones with just short of 200 internal ones.

protecting this stuffs no joke.

Bingo. And it's not that you won't have SSL outbound, but I'm likely running a decryptor between you and them if you're internal - need to know if you're sending Boris from Kazakhstan the SSNs from the benefits management system for every employee (has happened) and block it (and fuck you very much, Jim from HR). I don't care if you're paying your bills, but I'm scanning for files that get flagged by the DLP system for "oh shit"

 

[sadsteve]

WTF? "But does anyone actually do this?" Is that your argument? Really? I believe that nearly everyone on this website already practices regular backup habits. Furthermore, if your hard drive fails in a Windows PC, you encounter the same issue. Data loss doesn't discriminate between PC and Mac users. Is it preferable to have a non-soldered internal drive? Absolutely. However, your arguments against it lack any logical basis. And no, the data restoration process is not time-consuming at all. With Time Machine, you simply select the backup during your OS installation, and you're good to go. If you use a tool like Acronis on Windows, you can easily restore your system to its previous state. There are numerous options available for data backups and restoration, rendering this argument irrelevant. The bottom line is: back up your files, regardless of your choice of computer.

The logical basis for not wanting a soldered in SSD is the inability to upgrade. I've upgraded my SSD twice since I built my main PC. Started with a 512GB SSD to a 1TB SSD and then to a 2TB SSD. Heck, I've also upgraded the drive I have in my, relatively old, laptop.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Bingo. And it's not that you won't have SSL outbound, but I'm likely running a decryptor between you and them if you're internal - need to know if you're sending Boris from Kazakhstan the SSNs from the benefits management system for every employee (has happened) and block it (and fuck you very much, Jim from HR). I don't care if you're paying your bills, but I'm scanning for files that get flagged by the DLP system for "oh shit"

Well, it certainly is a balance between running a surveillance state that creates resentment and turnover, and catching people who actually are doing malicious shit (or who have just been foolishly duped)

I just wonder how things are different now than they were - say - 15-20 years ago that requires this increasingly draconian approach.

We already had the internet back then, and it's not as if cybercrime is anything new, yet the norm was for clients to have local admin access to their work machines and very little in the way of monitoring.

Interesting about the decrypting of TLS traffic though. How does that work? Just taking advantage of weak /poorly selected ciphers and systems that haven't been updated to patch for known vulberabilities, or utilizing monitoring software on the client?

I'm just kind of curious, because if SSL/TLS can so easily be decrypted by corporate firewalls, that would suggest that it is mostly useless as a security measure, which I can't believe is accurate. I imagine it must rely on pre-deployed keys on client machines or something like that, just that the in-flight data can be decrypted?

Again, all of this is likely why I have never encountered these systems. I go nowhere near HR or financial data. bouncing between R&D and Operations roles, the most sensitive stuff I ever encounter is IP related, and that is covered by some pretty ironclad patents.

I have been really annoyed by my inability to maintain my own local email pst archives over the last few years though.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

This is like fucking DRM for work files.

For what it's worth, I'd never take a job in an environment like that.

Huge pain in the ass. I'll just take a job somewhere else.

It's good to know this exists. I haven't run into it anywhere yet (possibly because my line of work neither involves state secrets nor protected financial documents) so I wasn't aware. Yet another thing to ask about during interviews, so there are no surprises later on.

It would suck to take a job, only to find this crap, and immediately have to start looking for another job, because there is no way in hell I would actually stay. You couldn't pay me enough to put up with that.

Totally agree with you on every point except the last one.