Tim Sweeney on the PPU

[jebo_4jc]

Nvnews has an interview with Tim Sweeney about UT2007. He addresses the PPU in it.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=70056

what we are doing in UT2007 is using the physics hardware only for accelerating special effects objects, things where the server tells the client, Spawn this special effect here! The client responds with an explosion with thousands of particles, and each of those operates as a seperate physics object but it doesn't effect the gameplay... its just purely a visual effect there.

What happened to the PPU-only deathmatch levels? Were those simply a rumor?

 

[InorganicMatter]

*sigh*

I think this is a typical case of the PPU hype defeating itself. It was never said that the PPU would be used to it's fullest in multiplayer. In fact, may people here said it wouldn't be possible due to a dozen clients all communicating physics data at once. I saw this a mile away. I firmly hold my stance that the PPU is only intended to increase the single-player experience, and that is useless in multiplayer.

 

[jebo_4jc]

I think this is a typical case of the PPU hype defeating itself. It was never said that the PPU would be used to it's fullest in multiplayer. In fact, may people here said it wouldn't be possible due to a dozen clients all communicating physics data at once.

Then how does Cell Factor work?

 

[Langford]

I havn't checked, but I havn't heared anything about the Xbox supporting any ppu stuff. If UT2007 is going to do live-multiplayer between both xbox360 and PC versions, and if the Xbox doesn't support it, then the ppu can't be used for anything that effects gameplay.

 

[mentok1982]

P4 sucks. He he.
I thought that was very funny.

That interviewer is the worst I've ever seen.
Looks like the first time he has ever interviewd someone using a mic.
He was really nervous as well.

what we are doing in UT2007 is using the physics hardware only for accelerating special effects objects, things where the server tells the client, Spawn this special effect here! The client responds with an explosion with thousands of particles, and each of those operates as a seperate physics object but it doesn't effect the gameplay... its just purely a visual effect there.

That makes me a sad panda.
Looks like there may be no reason to get a Phsyx card for UT 2007 after all.
I want to blow holes in sections of walls during deathmatch and I want to knock over things and squash my enemies.
Looks like UT 2007 will not offer me those things I guess. It will still be a great game though.

 

[mentok1982]

I havn't checked, but I havn't heared anything about the Xbox supporting any ppu stuff. If UT2007 is going to do live-multiplayer between both xbox360 and PC versions, and if the Xbox doesn't support it, then the ppu can't be used for anything that effects gameplay.

Pay attention please.
Mr. Sweeny said that Microsoft will not allow X-Box 360 vs PC with UT 2007.
They will "close the connection" apparently.

There might be play between people using a PS3 and PC though.

 

[Ockie]

So yeah, another blow to the PPU.


Does nothing but special effects for the player himself.... meaning no professional gamer would use this thing becuase they usually turn down graphics for better concentration... meaning no good marketing.


I was more hoping that you could level a building and flatten everyone inside and completley destroy the enviroment with debris and such all over the place.

 

[zeekle]

no way I would want to play a FPS on a console VS someone on a decent computer with a mouse.

 

[Jacob Freeman]

P4 sucks. He he.
I thought that was very funny.

That interviewer is the worst I've ever seen.
Looks like the first time he has ever interviewd someone using a mic.
He was really nervous as well.



That makes me a sad panda.
Looks like there may be no reason to get a Phsyx card for UT 2007 after all.
I want to blow holes in sections of walls during deathmatch and I want to knock over things and squash my enemies.
Looks like UT 2007 will not offer me those things I guess. It will still be a great game though.

Actually, its the 2nd time I have interviewed someone Yes I know I'm not good, and I don't expect anyone to think I am, as that is not important... but at least I have the balls to go up to a big shot like Sweeney and ask him for an interview all by myself.

 

[phide]

I seriously question the future of PPUs. How many generations of games must pass before the additional computational power is fully utilized, and how quickly do AMD and Intel intend to move with their multi-core processors? I think we're going to be looking at two entirely different timelines that simply never intersect - the needs for processing power may always "fit" into the cycles of multi-core processors. Simply said, the PhysX processor must be a necessity before it will be effectively used in real gameplay scenarios, and without major improvements in gameplay, there will tend to be little demand. With quad core just around the corner, and with dual core currently the staple in the mid-hi/hi-end range (even in notebooks), is a seperate processor really necessary?

I don't think I've seen much data on just how computationally intensive physics processing is. If quad core is the soon-to-be norm (2-3 years for wide mainstream implementation), developers could effectively utilize a ~12GHz processing playground. Is this enough?

We were looking forward to UT2007 being the first desirable game to use hardware physics processing in a meaningful way. With this now not being the case, will the PPU ever be a staple?

 

[pxc]

Cool. That pretty much settles the "wait for UT2007" argument.

 

[quadnad]

Then how does Cell Factor work?

well it was done over LAN in those demos because there was so much info being thrown around.

 

[Farseer]

Cool. That pretty much settles the "wait for UT2007" argument.

Same here. I was actually thinking of buying a PPU just for UT2007. Unless there are some dramatic changes, there won't be a PPU in my future now.

 

[defiant007]

heh....saw this coming a mile away but no1 believed me.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1029400717&postcount=10

Told you all so.

Wheres Spoudazo, I want him to eat his words.

 

[jebo_4jc]

Actually, its the 2nd time I have interviewed someone Yes I know I'm not good, and I don't expect anyone to think I am, as that is not important... but at least I have the balls to go up to a big shot like Sweeney and ask him for an interview all by myself.

cudos

 

[GotNoRice]

Hmm, seems kind of strange. Are there simply no gameplay physics in UT2007 at all or are they done using another engine? The PhysX engine is certainly capable of a lot of physics in software, as the engine predates the PPU by quite a while; it was doing software physics a long time before it ever had a PPU to work with.

I played cellfactor with 3 other people over a hamachi virtual LAN and it not only ran great, but I didn’t even notice significant bandwidth usage on my net connection. I wonder if perhaps it has more to do with latency than bandwidth? We all have Comcast and live pretty close, so we were all pinging <30ms over the virtual LAN. I could see 100+ms causing problems if debris and stuff needs to be synchronized.

 

[jebo_4jc]

That's interesting stuff about cellfactor over the net!

My understanding is that UT2007 uses the PhysX physics engine for 100% of its physics.
If you have a PhysX card, you have the ability to see increased detail in the physics effects in the game. However, there will be no "gameplay" physics to speak of, like the ones seen in Cell Factor. At least that's the impression Sweeney left in that interview.

 

[SlamDunk]

So yeah, another blow to the PPU.

A blow? The biggest "blow for AGEIA" for me, personally, is that Crytek will not be supporting PhysX in Crysis.

Obviously, there is a lot of physics going on in the game - calculating all that foliage isn't easy - and we asked Crytek how they were handling it all. They confirmed that there are no plans to integrate Ageia PhysX support, and that all the physics routines were written by themselves. Most of the processing is done on the processor - making use of multiple cores where they're available - and some processing is even offloaded to the GPU where it can, although to quote the Crytek rep, "We're going to be keeping the GPU pretty busy most of the time just with graphics, though."

...and, ironically, the physics in Crysis are the most impressive I've ever seen in a game Especially impressive in this DirectX 10 clip from E3 that shows smoke and fire interaction etc...

 

[pxc]

...and, ironically, the physics in Crysis are the most impressive I've ever seen in a game Especially impressive in this DirectX 10 clip from E3 that shows smoke and fire interaction etc...

All that on just a "slow" dual core CPU. I hope there are some better Havok FX demos to show it off, then the best of class for each type can be compared.

 

[Earthworm48]

TBH, I'm seeing great and well implemented Physics in games like Crytek, and even the Source game Dark Messiah of Might and Magic which is using old Havok looks like it has great use of Physics in the gameplay that I'm wondering about the PPU. I could see it go so that gameplay Physics remains on the CPU and then you get that Havok FX stuff for effects but I don't know. What concerns me with Havok FX is the cost. Your GPU isn't going to work as well as it would for graphics if its doing Physics and from what havok and Nvidia where saying before, even the Physics may not be the best it could be with one GPU. This would kind of push you toward getting an SLi setup and that means 2x great graphics card when previously one would be good, and another graphics card is pricier than a PPU card.

How do people reckon this will turn out then?

 

[pakotlar]

Actually, its the 2nd time I have interviewed someone Yes I know I'm not good, and I don't expect anyone to think I am, as that is not important... but at least I have the balls to go up to a big shot like Sweeney and ask him for an interview all by myself.

Yeah but you throw like a girl. Just kidding, thanks for the interview. How old are you? You look young, I'm 20 btw.

 

[lee63]

Actually, its the 2nd time I have interviewed someone Yes I know I'm not good, and I don't expect anyone to think I am, as that is not important... but at least I have the balls to go up to a big shot like Sweeney and ask him for an interview all by myself.

I think you did a great job

 

[Jacob Freeman]

Yeah but you throw like a girl. Just kidding, thanks for the interview. How old are you? You look young, I'm 20 btw.

22 in July

 

[lee63]

22 in July

Thats it what a young pup

 

[s_s256]

22 in July

Great interview, you'll get much better in time. I don't think I would do any better, probably much worse.

Just one point of advice, don't chew gum while interviewing.

 

[meatfestival]

I firmly hold my stance that the PPU is only intended to increase the single-player experience, and that is useless in multiplayer.

Unless perhaps if it's the server that has the PPU... although you'd probably need ridiculous amounts of bandwidth to transmit all that stuff to players.

Actually, does anyone know how Cellfactor uses the PPU for multiplayer?

 

[R1ckCa1n]

OUCH.... I wonder if all the people who bought on a whim can RMA?

edit: whats up with "pinky" on the interviewer?

 

[Low Roller]

A blow? The biggest "blow for AGEIA" for me, personally, is that Crytek will not be supporting PhysX in Crysis.



...and, ironically, the physics in Crysis are the most impressive I've ever seen in a game Especially impressive in this DirectX 10 clip from E3 that shows smoke and fire interaction etc...

Couldn't agree more.

You can rip up the jungle ala 'Predator' in Crysis. Its amazing, trees fall, leaves bend, and of course awsome particle and smoke effects. I know Crytek wrote their own engine for Far Cry, and I'm pretty sure its the same for Crysis. I don't think they license any 3rd party physics softwear.

Their in house CPU-GPU physics tech is awsome. I'm not sure any game using the PPU will be able to match Crysis when Crytek releases it.

 

[tornadotsunamilife]

Crytek do all their own stuff and have a great work ethic (make great games using the best technology for it, if it isn't there then make it there )

 

[MechWarrior]

Holy crap! That crysis video is friggin amazing. I am hoping that that is not a pre-rendered video though, although it looks like it. If not, what a beast of a machine that must be! Those flames look WAY too real!

 

[dotK]

Well, that's potentially another nail in the coffin, unless the special effects generated by the PPU are amazing. You can only tell people to wait for something that will actually utilize the PPU for so long until they'll dismiss it completely. Ageia better hope that a big name game comes out that uses the PPU for more than just more debris.

 

[Spewn]

"The pentium 4 architecture sucks....at the height of its sucking, when it was running at 3.6ghz and not performing as well as a 2ghz athlon 64, people were reluctant to say it sucks, but, IT SUCKS!"

QFT.

lol

 

[GoldenTiger]

Guys, all this means is that for MULTIPLAYER it will do what we expected: visuals. It doesn't mean that it's going to not have any single-player benefits/gameplay elements.

 

[dotK]

Guys, all this means is that for MULTIPLAYER it will do what we expected: visuals. It doesn't mean that it's going to not have any single-player benefits/gameplay elements.

The UT series is a multiplayer game, first and foremost. Yes it has a single player component but that's nothing compared to the multiplayer aspect. Also, I think somewhere it was mentioned that there would be "PPU only" levels for UT2K7, which is the exact opposite of the recent statement.

 

[GoldenTiger]

The UT series is a multiplayer game, first and foremost. Yes it has a single player component but that's nothing compared to the multiplayer aspect. Also, I think somewhere it was mentioned that there would be "PPU only" levels for UT2K7, which is the exact opposite of the recent statement.

I remember reading an interview from Tim or someone from the UT team which stated that only about 10% of UT customers ever went online with it. What was that again about it being a primarily multiplayer game? Sure, among us hardcore PC enthusiasts, but not the vast majority of the market.

 

[meatfestival]

Wow, I didn't think it was possible to have a geekier voice than John Carmack, but Tim takes the prize. Still, he knows how to code a wicked 3D engine.

 

[dotK]

I remember reading an interview from Tim or someone from the UT team which stated that only about 10% of UT customers ever went online with it. What was that again about it being a primarily multiplayer game? Sure, among us hardcore PC enthusiasts, but not the vast majority of the market.

I think it was something more like 50%. Also, the people who are likely to buy the PPU because of UT2K7 are most likely the ones who happen to play games online. I haven't met very many people who spend tons of money on hardware and never end up playing online.

 

[Coolcity]

cudos

kudos

 

[GoldenTiger]

I think it was something more like 50%. Also, the people who are likely to buy the PPU because of UT2K7 are most likely the ones who happen to play games online. I haven't met very many people who spend tons of money on hardware and never end up playing online.

That's a good point, actually...

 

[jebo_4jc]

kudos

Exactly

Wow, I didn't think it was possible to have a geekier voice than John Carmack, but Tim takes the prize. Still, he knows how to code a wicked 3D engine.

Yeah somehow I always picture these guys as being huge, manly men with deep voices. I guess because their "stature" in the PC world is so huge. Problem is, they're all just geeks. Extremely intelligent, likely very rich geeks. But they're still geeks.

I remember reading an interview from Tim or someone from the UT team which stated that only about 10% of UT customers ever went online with it. What was that again about it being a primarily multiplayer game? Sure, among us hardcore PC enthusiasts, but not the vast majority of the market.

At first I was going to call BS on your comment, but actually I might believe it. I can't find how many copies of any of the UT games were sold, but if UT2k3 sold 3,000,000 copies, and 300,000 people play online with it, your 10% number makes sense. Surprising really, since it's a multiplayer game, after all.

Guys, all this means is that for MULTIPLAYER it will do what we expected: visuals. It doesn't mean that it's going to not have any single-player benefits/gameplay elements.

I hope you're right, but I doubt there will be PPU specific levels in the SP portion that won't make it into MP. I had a thought though:
since UE3 supports the PPU, perhaps the modding community will be able to make a *real* PPU level? Let's hope.....