Thank You Microsoft for Adding ADS

Ur_Mom said:
I see the commercial benefit of it all, but not the consumer benefit. Not within the OS itself, anyway.
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There's always some level of consumer benefit to ads — particularly when they're well-targeted — but the consumer benefit may or may not always outweigh the level of detriment.
 
Ur_Mom said:
I can see ads on the desktop/Metro web client any time. But, not in the built in OS search. Even with the iPhone, when you search you don't get ads. When you select 'Search the web', it opens the browser and will display ads, as expected.

I see the commercial benefit of it all, but not the consumer benefit. Not within the OS itself, anyway.
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I do have to wonder where all of these ads are that people are talking about, because I've not seen anything buy search relevant ad sponsored links in a few searches I've done related to commercial terms like "ford", "starbucks", etc.

Hit the Windows key or Start Button, start typing and see results from local drives, Skydrive and the web. From a philosophical or matter of principle I can understand the opposition to it. From a real world practical standpoint it's much harder to understand the angst. More keystrokes and less integration are preferable in practical use?
 
wonderfield said:
There's always some level of consumer benefit to ads — particularly when they're well-targeted — but the consumer benefit may or may not always outweigh the level of detriment.
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Exactly. Unfortunately there don't seem to be many here that have used this feature to rationally determine what the pros and cons truly are. I've not seen one ad link that wasn't relevant to the search in question, as few of those ads links are. I doubt that many people that are ok with the ad links in web browser searches will think much of seeing exactly the same ads links in the integrated search, particularly as this feature becomes more powerful with the ability to integrate with Modern apps.
 
heatlesssun said:
I do have to wonder where all of these ads are that people are talking about, because I've not seen anything buy search relevant ad sponsored links in a few searches I've done related to commercial terms like "ford", "starbucks", etc.

Hit the Windows key or Start Button, start typing and see results from local drives, Skydrive and the web. From a philosophical or matter of principle I can understand the opposition to it. From a real world practical standpoint it's much harder to understand the angst. More keystrokes and less integration are preferable in practical use?
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This. Has anyone in the thread throwing a fit about the ads actually seen any? I keep searching my computer looking and see none at all.

Forbes tech articles have always and will always be laughable so if thats the only thing you guys are going on try looking at the source. The only way you get ads from what i have seen is a web search through the desktop and you'll just get the same ads you would using the bing or google pages any way.
 
I don't get what everyone is complaining about. Did I misread the article, or can you turn off integrated search? If you can, then who cares? Personally, I don't think I'll ever use integrated search. When i search the web, I use a browser. When I search for files, I use explorer or control panel (technically still explorer) to search for what I'm looking for. Or if I want, i could just use the search out of the start menu (which I typically only use for program searches).

If you don't like it, don't use integrated search. This sounds a lot like google's old desktop search. I knew people who loved it (and I'm fairly certain Google collected data one what you searched before killing the product).

I don't know if heatlesssun works for MS or not, and I don't care, because logic wins over whining every time. That said, if MS didn't allow us to turn it off, if they gathered data on our searches when it was turned off and/or if they served up ads on desktop searches with it off, I'd join all of the whiners.

Until then, please take off your tinfoil hats. There's better uses for tin.
 
heatlesssun said:
This is an arbitrary separation of things that just doesn't translate in the world of connected data and services. I know people is this thread won't like this but when you hit the Windows key and type "albert einstein" of "Chopin" this is what you get with the integrated search:

Screenshot%20(27).png


Yeah, just flooded with ads. And with the Chopin results I can click on the song links and get taken to the Xbox music app and it starts to play. And you get I think like 10 hours a month of free streaming in Xbox music so maybe the ads to help pay for something that's not included in the price of the OS.

Call me a Microsoft fanboy but I just can't see why most people wouldn't like this kind of smart and useful connectivity to the web and services built into the OS but having the option to disable if desired and I think it's definitely that people need to see at least once because it is different and unique on the desktop and even useful. People love to talk about the lack of choice in Windows but the more interesting and powerful the choices are becoming in Windows 8 the more just totally bizarre some of the opposition is.
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I don't see any ads in that search. That said, it might be useful, but I still think I'd turn it off. If I want to search for chopin, I've got a browser. But that's just me. I literally segregate what I do. Google doesn't get's most of my searches. Yahoo gets email. Bing gets image and travel searches. Cookies and javascript are generally blocked on all but yahoo (and even then it's temporary permissions).

Does it work? Probably not, but that's my thing. I definitely don't see myself using an integrated search, but I've been known to change my mind.
 
Vermillion said:
Except the ads are in the APPS not Android itself. This sort of crap from MS is too over the top. I don't want my searches by default heading over the Internet unless I'm specifically opening a browser and searching. Ability to disable is a cop out since 95% of the population is too stupid to opt out. It shouldn't be there in the first place.



^^ QFTMFT!
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Assuming it can be disabled, which I believe is what the article stated, then you're just wrong. If you decide to use an integrated search, then you get ads. Sorry bud, but if you want ad free searches then you need to go on your browser and use whatever add free search engine exists (not sure what that is, since even duckduckgo.com has ads).

Just turn it off. Nobody says you have to do a Bing search when searching your desktop. It's your choice! And if the 95% don't like it, they'll turn it off. Hell, they can do an integrated web search to find out how to do it (or go to IE, FF or Chrome and search there).

The only people this matters to are those that are going to turn it off. And some, like me, don't care and will still turn it off.
 
Dogs said:
There are ads in the stock weather app, if you look hard enough. The stock app pulls from Bing weather, which gets data through agreements with Weather.com and AccuWeather.
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True, but I was responding to his claim that the earlier Windows versions had ad-free widgets. At the widget level of information there are no ads. It's been a couple years since I used a weather widget on Windows but if I remember correctly there wasn't the same level of information unless one clicked on the widget and then it opened a browser window roughly the same as digging through the metro weather app.
 
heatlesssun said:
But of course you're not blocking the ads on [H]. I admit, that it does rub me the wrong way when people complain about ads yet enjoy the benefits everyday.
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I have to admit I was unintentionally blocking them (security plugin). I use to do it intentionally. Now if it's a flash ad, I block it. If you open a dozen forum pages and they all have flash, it bogs down the cpu (well maybe not so much now, but back then it did). And the reality is I block youtube, gstatic unless I go there and want to watch a video.

These banner ads, however, are OK. Look once if I'm interested, I'll click if not maybe I'll be interested on the next page.
 
Vermillion said:
In Android itself? No. You obviously haven't installed plain Android. Android has no apps other than basic thinks like the camera, stock browser, etc. Anything Google is an app you have to install. Yes, OEM's install those apps by default but they are NOT included in Android by default.

The Google Search bar shows ads but YOU have to decide to use the search bar and even install it (it can be disabled).

There are plenty of people out there who run Google free versions of Android. That's why sites like f-droid.org exist.



Ads don't bother me when done right. Ads don't bother me when used to monetize free services such as Google, sites like the [H], or apps.

Ads do bother me when they're rammed down my throat by integrating services into a product I already had to pay for.

There is no good reason for MS to do this other than trying to back door a way to more search revenue because they know that when that user fires up a browser chances are they're not going to Bing.

Plus who says I want Bing to default? Who says I don't want duckduckgo or Google itself? I shouldn't have to dig and find the option to disable this bullshit "feature" as it shouldn't be there in the first place.
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Wait a second. You said you have to disable Google search bar. How is that different from disabling integrated search? I'd have to findout how to do it either way.
FYI, while I don't know how to disable it in Windows, I bet you'd find it using integrated search or by searching in control panel (assuming that concept exists in Windows 8). that's how I find most things in Windows 7 too.
 
nilepez said:
I don't see any ads in that search. That said, it might be useful, but I still think I'd turn it off. If I want to search for chopin, I've got a browser. But that's just me. I literally segregate what I do. Google doesn't get's most of my searches. Yahoo gets email. Bing gets image and travel searches. Cookies and javascript are generally blocked on all but yahoo (and even then it's temporary permissions).

Does it work? Probably not, but that's my thing. I definitely don't see myself using an integrated search, but I've been known to change my mind.
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The people complaining about the ads obviously have used this, you just get search related ad links like you normally would with Google or Bing. And you really don't get many of these links, everyone that I've seen thus far came up when doing searching on something commerce related.

And yes, as you point out it can be disabled. I like having a quick way to do a web search from anywhere are there is integration with apps that you can't get from within a browser. I think most average people will like this. But more so than the ads, I do understand why some would have privacy issues with the integrated search.
 
heatlesssun said:
Do you really think that if you were to do a search on "hardforum" with this thing that you'd end up seeing an ad about Windex? It's the same search results you'd get from a Bing search in a web browser. Bing or Google, you don't usually see search related ad links on anything other than companies, products and services.

And here we go again with yet another Windows 8 thread where people are bashing something and have no idea what they are talking about because they never touched the subject at hand. And that's why I think many of you will surprised when lots of average people like this thing, because it's nothing more than what they are already seeing in a web browser and now these results can be used in more interesting and powerful ways because of the much tighter integration that can be achieved that's not possible in a web browser.
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You don't get it.

I Don't want Web related, Ad anything in searches I perform on my local Desktop Period. When I search on my desktop, I want stuff on my desktop. If I want to search the web, I will use a Web Browser to do it. There is Zero reason to integrate this stuff and a whole list of reasons not too. I know some of you are all on board with this whole everything in the cloud bullshit, but I am not one of them. The chief two that come to mind are system security and personal privacy. Sorry but I have been in IT far too many years to find something like this tolerable on any level.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
You don't get it.

I Don't want Web related, Ad anything in searches I perform on my local Desktop Period. When I search on my desktop, I want stuff on my desktop. If I want to search the web, I will use a Web Browser to do it. There is Zero reason to integrate this stuff and a whole list of reasons not too. I know some of you are all on board with this whole everything in the cloud bullshit, but I am not one of them. The chief two that come to mind are system security and personal privacy. Sorry but I have been in IT far too many years to find something like this tolerable on any level.
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If you don't like the feature then turn it off. I find it odd how some constantly criticize Microsoft for not providing options in Windows but when they do opponents often say there's no reason for it or that no one asked for the option.

I've been using this for a while now and I think plenty of people will like this. It's fast and provides a way to search a lot all at once. Whatever the issues are with it, the truth is that data lives a lot of different places now. What is local and what's in the cloud is becoming just an technical distinction, not a practical one.
 
heatlesssun said:
If you don't like the feature then turn it off. I find it odd how some constantly criticize Microsoft for not providing options in Windows but when they do opponents often say there's no reason for it or that no one asked for the option.

I've been using this for a while now and I think plenty of people will like this. It's fast and provides a way to search a lot all at once. Whatever the issues are with it, the truth is that data lives a lot of different places now. What is local and what's in the cloud is becoming just an technical distinction, not a practical one.
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Granted I do quite a bit of arguing for choice, however sometimes choice comes with a good deal of baggage. In this case, this choice needs to be off by default not turn it off if you don't like it. As someone who spent years fixing peoples virus ridden computers, this just screams security hole. You want to turn it on? fine do at your own risk. While MS has made great strides in OS security and while I am a huge fan of MSE and Windows Defender, I am utterly and completely opposed to options that default open doors. I want to know at all times when and what my computer is accessing the web through. "Features" like this take away that means. Obviously for me it isn't a huge deal, I am going to shut it off and nothing is going to get through my cisco network anyhow. However the average person isn't going to have that.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Granted I do quite a bit of arguing for choice, however sometimes choice comes with a good deal of baggage. In this case, this choice needs to be off by default not turn it off if you don't like it. As someone who spent years fixing peoples virus ridden computers, this just screams security hole. You want to turn it on? fine do at your own risk. While MS has made great strides in OS security and while I am a huge fan of MSE and Windows Defender, I am utterly and completely opposed to options that default open doors. I want to know at all times when and what my computer is accessing the web through. "Features" like this take away that means. Obviously for me it isn't a huge deal, I am going to shut it off and nothing is going to get through my cisco network anyhow. However the average person isn't going to have that.
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As for the security risk, I don't see how there any more risk introduced here than the same search being down in a web browser. And because this is being done in the heavily sand boxed and curated environment of Modern apps, there are some local security benefits here than using a desktop browser that's much easier to target with malware.

As I've said many times, I think a lot of the resistance to Windows 8 is philosophical and is out of step with what average people expect from modern computing. I think the incredible adoption of smart phones and tablets and apps and web applications and services and the cloud prove that people want ever more connected and integrated experiences, not isolated islands of things here and there. Even if one doesn't like Windows 8 the world is moving to connected devices and experiences. The PC can either adopt these changes or be left behind.
 
No they are not tracking local searches. If the integrated search is turned on well duh, of course that search is going to Bing because it's not just a local search. There are a lot of options though as to how much privacy information is shared. There's a lot of nonsense when people are talking about this issue:

Unless you make Smart Search dumb, you not only hand Microsoft a complete history of all of your local computer search terms, you open your machine up to even more lovely ads, doled out on the Search results pane. If you search for "flugelhorn" on your local computer -- not on the Web, mind you, but on your own computer -- the results that Windows 8.1 shows you will include advertisements for flugelhorns on eBay and Amazon (no, I'm not joking -- try it), local flugelhorn manufacturers, flugelhorn party consultants, and no doubt some day flugelhorn addiction services.
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So the integrated search is on, you don't have any local content with "flugelhorn" in it and gee, you get web results because well it's turned on. The first result is from Wikipedia and the eBay and Amazon links aren't even ads. Really, you do a web search for "flugelhorn" and expect not to see places that sell flugelhorns? OMG.

This is getting insane. So search for "flugelhorn" locally and gee, most people don't see anything so yeah, let's pull up a web browser to find some useful information. Wow, that's so much more efficient.
 
heatlesssun said:
No they are not tracking local searches. If the integrated search is turned on well duh, of course that search is going to Bing because it's not just a local search. There are a lot of options though as to how much privacy information is shared. There's a lot of nonsense when people are talking about this issue:



So the integrated search is on, you don't have any local content with "flugelhorn" in it and gee, you get web results because well it's turned on. The first result is from Wikipedia and the eBay and Amazon links aren't even ads. Really, you do a web search for "flugelhorn" and expect not to see places that sell flugelhorns? OMG.

This is getting insane. So search for "flugelhorn" locally and gee, most people don't see anything so yeah, let's pull up a web browser to find some useful information. Wow, that's so much more efficient.
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So if a user doesn't find a local file that is ok to send those search result MS.. Maybe the file is on a usb drive or removable drive.

If your ok with sending your search result to MS that fine but some people might not be and they might not be technically savy enough to disable it and they are unwillingly sending stuff to MS. They might not want to do that. This should be disabled by default and if you are sticking silly shit like this give me my *insert* search engine switch/option. Fucking Bing is horrible.
 
Wrench00 said:
So if a user doesn't find a local file that is ok to send those search result MS.. Maybe the file is on a usb drive or removable drive.

If your ok with sending your search result to MS that fine but some people might not be and they might not be technically savy enough to disable it and they are unwillingly sending stuff to MS. They might not want to do that. This should be disabled by default and if you are sticking silly shit like this give me my *insert* search engine switch/option. Fucking Bing is horrible.
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Not sure how this will be setup in the RTM, there are a lot of options to turn things off and on setting up a new Windows device that a lot of people will just click the defaults. I'm not opposed to it being off by default, but phones and tablets don't come that way and no one seems to have an issue with integrated search and services there.

As for Bing, in the US it's pretty good. Plus I have no idea how Microsoft and Goggle would ever come to terms with having tight integration of Google's services in Windows. There is actually a decent Modern Google Search app.
 
Wrench00 said:
So if a user doesn't find a local file that is ok to send those search result MS.. Maybe the file is on a usb drive or removable drive.

If your ok with sending your search result to MS that fine but some people might not be and they might not be technically savy enough to disable it and they are unwillingly sending stuff to MS. They might not want to do that. This should be disabled by default and if you are sticking silly shit like this give me my *insert* search engine switch/option. Fucking Bing is horrible.
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Literally everything you have ever complained about in Windows 8/8.1 on this forum is something that can easily be fixed within about 1 minute. Sorry, but if you have a problem with the integrated search, take the 5 seconds to turn it off and move on with your life.

It would be nice if everything you wanted was already set to the default. Sadly, your wants do not align with those of the majority, so you have to change some settings to meet your non-standard wants.

As for switching the search engine to use, that would require the search engine of your choice to offer the appropriate API for it to be consumed as a web service. It should be obvious to anybody who has used the new search that the search does not simply render the browser HTML page served by the search provider (this would clearly be insecure), it should also be obvious to those of us with a technical background that some sort of specific API endpoints for delivering the data would also be needed. That or some sort of hacky, poorly made HTML scraping system specifically tailored to the search engine of your choice, but Microsoft likes to deliver production level code, not taped together crap, so that sort of solution would never make it into a commercial product like Windows.

In other words, search integration would require certain resources on the server-side, and Bing is the only search engine for which Microsoft has that control.
 
Dogs said:
In other words, search integration would require certain resources on the server-side, and Bing is the only search engine for which Microsoft has that control.
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Exactly. There is some tight integration going on here and some interesting server side stuff with the Search Hero. At any rate Microsoft would need to work with Google to allow Google Search to work with this integrated search and deliver the same capabilities and the business politics of that are far more complex than the technical issues. Plus I what's in it for Microsoft to consume Google services and expose Google advertising inside of Windows? Certainly Microsoft would want a cut of that traffic, Google would want Google services tied in, it gets really complicated really fast.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Granted I do quite a bit of arguing for choice, however sometimes choice comes with a good deal of baggage. In this case, this choice needs to be off by default not turn it off if you don't like it. As someone who spent years fixing peoples virus ridden computers, this just screams security hole. You want to turn it on? fine do at your own risk. While MS has made great strides in OS security and while I am a huge fan of MSE and Windows Defender, I am utterly and completely opposed to options that default open doors. I want to know at all times when and what my computer is accessing the web through. "Features" like this take away that means. Obviously for me it isn't a huge deal, I am going to shut it off and nothing is going to get through my cisco network anyhow. However the average person isn't going to have that.
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The average person may not care. Like you, I'd turn it off, because I don't want them tracking my searches, but I don't think this is that different from when there was a search bar installed with Windows (don't recall if it started with XP or Vista). I turned it off every time. Now if this turns out to be filled with security risks, then I'm with you, but otherwise, I don't see the big deal. I'll wait till I do an upgrade to research i, and I'll use the built in search to find out how to turn it off (not my normal way of doing it, but I'll do it just to see how hard it is to find out how to turn it off).

my guess is "turn off windows 8.1 web search" will do it.
 
nilepez said:
my guess is "turn off windows 8.1 web search" will do it.
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It's even easier than that, just type "search" and one of the top items should be "Choose whether to include search suggestions and results..." and you get the Search & apps screen and near the top "Use Bing to search online" with a number of options. There's some cool aspects to this that I think most people will like from a convenience standpoint. If one is worried about I sure, I get that, but we do so much searching online these days I just don't see why most would have an aneurism over this.
 
heatlesssun said:
It doesn't necessarily make sense to block ads in search results particularly if you're doing searches for products and services as you could be blocking exactly what you're try to find.
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Holy shit I think I just had an aneurism...

And I was still on the first page...
 
heatlesssun said:
Really? You search for "ford" but want the link for ford.com blocked? That's an ad link in Bing search.
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I use Google :rolleyes:

If Bing is blocking search results I'd say that is more an issue with Bing...might want to talk with MS about that.
 
heatlesssun said:
Ford.com is also an ad link in a Google search on the word "ford".



You just gave yourself an aneurism.
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Sorry, nice try though...I use Firefox and Google. The ad doesn't come up for me and yet in the search results I get ford.com...see how that works without ads! I've learned to tune your preaching out for the most part.
 
pcjunkie said:
Sorry, nice try though...I use Firefox and Google. The ad doesn't come up for me and yet in the search results I get ford.com...see how that works without ads! I've learned to tune your preaching out for the most part.
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Screenshot%20(39).png
 
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pcjunkie said:
Sorry, nice try though...I use Firefox and Google. The ad doesn't come up for me and yet in the search results I get ford.com...see how that works without ads! I've learned to tune your preaching out for the most part.
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The ads are right at the top of the search page, take a look, they are there on google.
 
heatlesssun said:
Really? You search for "ford" but want the link for ford.com blocked? That's an ad link in Bing search.
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Ford.com/focus is the ad.

Search for Ford, and you may want the Ford.com site, which is there. Just because Ford advertises with the Ford.com doesn't mean that all companies will have their ad on the front page. It may be some Chinese shop selling knock offs. I really don't know, as I haven't searched a ton of different terms to see what percentage things really are...

Bing search is different than Windows search, though. Yes, it's powered by Bing, but if I have a Ford book on my PC, I don't want a Ford ad while searching for it.

I just see users clicking the wrong thing, as so many do with the ads in search engines. Then, hear the yell from the other room "Hey, bro! I won an Xbox 360!" or "This creme works amazing! This Dr. recommended it for my herpes!".

I use Bing exclusively, and the ads aren't very intrusive at all. But, they belong on the web page, not bundled with the OS search.
 
pcjunkie said:
Sorry, nice try though...I use Firefox and Google. The ad doesn't come up for me and yet in the search results I get ford.com...see how that works without ads! I've learned to tune your preaching out for the most part.
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Lets not result to flat out lying to prove a failing point. :rolleyes:

If you type ford in google the first result is an ad for ford.com even with ad blocking software you will get that 100% of the time as shown in the pic above.
 
pxc said:
Windows 8 is immune to criticism.

Seriously, his "defend the hive!" posts are just getting ridiculous.
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Now it's just comedy. Makes for mild entertainment when the need to tweak him arises.

But it does make ya wonder, if these guys really don't work for MS like they claim well they defend them every step no matter what like rabid Bieber fans .. Modern science can't even explain it.
 
DPI said:
But it does make ya wonder, if these guys really don't work for MS like they claim well they defend them every step no matter what like rabid Bieber fans .. Modern science can't even explain it.
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I know a lot of 'softies that won't defend it to the lengths they are going. You can't disagree or have an opinion on something, otherwise they call you out on it - you're wrong, you're using it wrong, you fear change, you don't know what's good and bad... You can't not like it because of personal preference. You have to like it. That's what I don't like debating. People don't want ads in their base OS tools - but, alas, we're using it wrong. That's the FUTURE! :rolleyes:

At least real 'softies can debate a bit more civil. If you don't like it, they will ask why and use that input. You're not wrong, but it's just not where the product is headed.

I like green, but Microsoft is going blue? A MS employee response - "That's cool. Green is a good color. But, we're going with blue because ...". Heatless - "You're wrong. Green is an outdated color. Blue is better.".

I'd rather talk to Ballmer himself than with some of these fanboys. I'll defend Microsoft, and they do a lot of great things (I like Windows 8). But, I won't defend their stupid ideas. We all have them. I hope people call me out on my stupid ideas. Microsoft at least listens to some (Xbox One is an example).
 
Ur_Mom said:
I know a lot of 'softies that won't defend it to the lengths they are going. You can't disagree or have an opinion on something, otherwise they call you out on it - you're wrong, you're using it wrong, you fear change, you don't know what's good and bad... You can't not like it because of personal preference. You have to like it. That's what I don't like debating. People don't want ads in their base OS tools - but, alas, we're using it wrong. That's the FUTURE! :rolleyes:
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The thing is that a lot of what many of bring up isn't a matter of defending Microsoft, it's simply describing how something actually works with some detail and accuracy and the reality of the market. Web search is a CRITICAL function in consumer computing devices and the integration of search and services and the cloud and apps is at the very core of consumer computing today. And these things are largely funded by ads.

This is just the truth. One may not like the integrated search in Windows or the ads but another truth is that consumers don't seem to be having anywhere near the problems with ads that so many are professing. If they were it's hard to see how the mobile market powered by ads would be exploding like it its.
 
Ur_Mom said:
I know a lot of 'softies that won't defend it to the lengths they are going. You can't disagree or have an opinion on something, otherwise they call you out on it - you're wrong, you're using it wrong, you fear change, you don't know what's good and bad... You can't not like it because of personal preference. You have to like it. That's what I don't like debating. People don't want ads in their base OS tools - but, alas, we're using it wrong. That's the FUTURE! :rolleyes:

At least real 'softies can debate a bit more civil. If you don't like it, they will ask why and use that input. You're not wrong, but it's just not where the product is headed.

I like green, but Microsoft is going blue? A MS employee response - "That's cool. Green is a good color. But, we're going with blue because ...". Heatless - "You're wrong. Green is an outdated color. Blue is better.".

I'd rather talk to Ballmer himself than with some of these fanboys. I'll defend Microsoft, and they do a lot of great things (I like Windows 8). But, I won't defend their stupid ideas. We all have them. I hope people call me out on my stupid ideas. Microsoft at least listens to some (Xbox One is an example).
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See I don't think some of these posters are just fan boys. They have to be compensated, maybe by a 3rd party Marketing company. If it has Win 8 in the topic/post heatlesssun will be there. That is not normal. Look at his posts, day or night. I can't believe his employer would be happy knowing he spends so much work time defending an OS on a forum? Posters like him don't help the cause (win 8) when they get to the point of being so viral in the community. Whether they are right or wrong people will eventually just stop listening to them because of the bias.
 
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