heatlesssun
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How can one miss the irony in the future of Linux gaming being driven by native Windows apps?
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Steam Play Evolves as Valve Adds Tools for Windows to Linux Compatibility
How can one miss the irony in the future of Linux gaming being driven by native Windows apps?
heatlesssun
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Chill, you were the one bought up RofTR performance with no data other than some supposed 20 FPS advantage Linux Steam Play had over native Windows. True or not, it was a meaningless reference without some context and data.
So here is some. Sig rig at 4k max settings SLI enabled:
Well what do you know I actually agree 100% with ManofGod.
Yes every version of windows has sucked. People just don't know any better.. which is also why the PC market is shrinking in favor of store locked phone OSs.
Gee, let me just run right out and follow your path too nonsense.If you find that limiting yourself is your strength, that is cool, enjoy.
It doesn't require windows... I get that you guys are all in your MS bubbles. But seriously you all need to understand what wine/proton is.
Software in general use APIs for everything... not just 3D graphics. There are APIs like WindowsAPI which calls a few DLLs and tells software how to deal with hardware. Linux software tends to use glibc and other free APIs but the idea is the same. MS API isn't open source. However its very possible to figure out from windows software code what is supposed to do what. Wine is simply an open source interputer of the WindowsAPI. If a windows program running under wine calls another API such as Python it doesn't matter if its in windows or Linux the software calls that installed framework. MS also has a handful of closed source higher level APIs to handle buttons/windows ect. Wine/Proton translate those calls... in the same way the closed source windows .dll libraries are called by win32 or the metro running junk ect. ITS NOT emulating anything its simply translated closed source MS APIs to system calls. (which is no different the what what Windows itself does)
If a windows program running under wine/proton calls say glibc and qt frameworks... wine just calls the system installed frameworks as if it was running Linux program. Its simply converting a few headers. If you had the source code for such software a simple re compile to replace the headers would be all that was required. To make it a native piece of software. Which is why so many open source projects compile for windows as well... why not in most cases it takes a couple min to simply recompile their code into an .exe. All this talk of windows / Linux software is getting sillier and sillier as the vast majority of software (and games) are written using the same cross platform mostly open source APIs frameworks and engines.
The main issue with wine running windows software has almost always been stupid DRM checks. This should be an area where Valve can work with developers to ensure smooth operation. (and to be fair DRM has made many games run like crap under windows as well)
The idea of any software being native to any one OS... is a very 1990 way of thinking. That's how.
Perhaps the last 30 years of games that are released on 3-4 platforms (not counting Linux) hasn't tipped you off.
"Windows software" is just a bunch of C+ or C# code... accessing framework APIs. 30 years ago the frameworks used by 99% of "windows software" where closed source with features only MS knew about. (which is why they where able to release killer versions of office using features no one knew about yet every few years). However today... very very few windows developers are using WindowsAPI anymore. They have moved to open source windows managers like QT... they are using C+ and C# but non MS compilers are being used more and more. We are also seeing more and more software written in newer more powerful languages like GO, Rust, Python. That software is not "windows software" its just software... compiling it for X or Y operating system is just semantics.
So if the Game developers are dragging their heals on cross platform compilation... so be it. Valve has a work around. We simply create a system that recognizes the windows compiled header calls. No big deal. After 6-12 months or so of bug chasing... I have no doubt proton will run 99% of windows games within a few % points of windows 10. I wouldn't be shocked if many titles that use no closed MS APIs at all will end up faster. (IMO that is why the odd specific game like Doom for instance is showing faster performance on Linux.... all wine has to do is change the inital exe header calls.. nothing else in that code is using closed source calls)
heatlesssun
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If I'd said 6 years ago that the hot new thing in Linux gaming in 2018 would be native Windows apps because even after 6 years developers just never targeted Linux for gaming, the Linux fans around here would have been screaming about my Microsoft bias.
If this the way I'm looking at it is so 1990s, Valve took its time up to 2018 in the 21st Century to get around to this. Bottom line, Valve was trying to create a native gaming Linux ecosystem, that has failed to date and now Plan B.
WINE is 25 years old. Give your head a shake. lol
What has changed is Vulkan and the waning use of MS closed APIs >.< If Valve was trying convert DX 12 and 11 calls to opengl it simply wouldn't work. The Hardware MFG support for vulkan is now very good.... and more and more game developers are switching to native Vulkan development. Combine that with practically zero games being released that use the windowsapi... and it makes simply converting a few headers relatively speaking easy. (there is a reason we are not seeing a ton of DX 12 games... and that starts with Valve)
Valves plan has worked perfectly.
1) They stopped MS from walling up windows gaming. Without valves moves since windows 8.... I have zero doubt every main stream computer sold with windows would ship without win32.
2) They promoted cross platform APIs.
- All the major 3D game engines which are used to create the majority of games today are all cross platform, and support Vulkan.
- They have directly contributed work to non ms code compilers.
3) They worked hard to get game developers to embrace cross platform. Sure not every developer is producing Linux binaries... but many are. Yes your right the overall rate of Linux software is still low... but the number of top 100-200 games that have Linux versions is very high. It shows that Valve has been spending their $ wisely supporting developers of popular games. So what if the windows platform has 10x as many shovelware titles. Many of those top 100 developers have also helped them pressure cross platform support into the major engines... its a wonderful circle of support.
4) NOW that the majority of AAA developers are using cross platform APIs and Engines... guess what. Adding something like steam play becomes possible. Proton and DXVK/VKD3D would 100% not have been possible 5-6 years ago when they started developing Linux publicly. Trying to emulate a ton of closed source windows APIs and other closed source third party APIs would have been a night mare. (and it was as anyone that used wine 5+ years ago can tell you... wine worked great on simple software and sucked with games) These days however wine just works... and we haven't gotten a ton of benchmarks yet but it does appear proton is 10-20% better in terms of performance over vanilla wine.
Get ready for the future Heatle. One where your game ecosystem argument is facacta.
heatlesssun
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And so what? When Valve launched SteamOS and Steam Machines the plan was to create a new native gaming ecosystem that has NOTHING to do with Windows, period.
And yet taking what you say as the truth, Valve has now been forced to put Windows compatibility into the Linux Steam client because no cared about any of this. Developers just didn't care enough to develop Linux games.
Nonsense. To this day Steam and gaming is a HUGE advantage for Windows. Valve is just scared that it's a business built on Windows. macOS and Linux are still rounding errors.
ManofGod
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Damn, I have a Vega 56 Reference card flashed with a Vega 64 Bios and overclocked. It is running on a 3.9 GHz Overclocked R7 1700 and 16GB of DDR4 2800 ram. The overall score I receive is 43fps.
ManofGod
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And has only moved forward far less than 25 years. Have to say, nice as it is, it is sub par for being 25 years old. Oh, and that future and supposed "facts" are only in your mind, good luck with your disappointment.
You windows kids are hillarious.
Yes converting closed source calls is guess work. Wine works pretty darn well. Sub par. You guys have no idea what your talking about. lol
I don't care about anything you do or your PC Heatlesssun. Your benchmark really doesn't relate to anything, it was pointless even posting it. As stated, I just love how it's impossible for you to believe that Linux is faster than Windows, in many day to day computational benchmarks Linux is definitely faster than Windows, so I see absolutely no reason why gaming would be no different considering a title with great Vulkan support.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=win10-linux-core9&num=1
And a very recent test:
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=2990wx-linux-windows&num=1
And the user getting better performance under Linux using Steam Play with a native Vulkan title vs Windows, had to format as code so copy/paste:
Code:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/99y6ux/im_having_20_better_performance_than_w10_on_rise/And lastly, the latest Nvidia drivers released just after Steam Play and Proton are showing massive performance improvements, improvements I've seen myself regarding various titles:
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia-39654-linux&num=5
Considering the Nvidia driver improvements, I see no reason to doubt these claims.
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heatlesssun
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LOL! That's fine. Like I said, I know what folks like you would have said six years ago if I'd said the future of Linux gaming is Windows games.
Nobu
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Good thing it's not six years ago anymore...
I imagine my reaction would have been more reasonable then when I suggested MS was going to start adding Linux systems. Now the Linux subsystem is the greatest thing Heatle has ever heard about outside of gaming.
I have also more then a few times said MS will at some point kill their kernel / dll hell registry monstrosity and switch to a Linux base. Hasn't happened outside of their own cloud servers and iot stuffs... but it will. I'm not trying to troll him... honest.
Just making a point. The future is Linux... MS knows it as well as anyone. When it happens heatle will go from that is stupid... to of course its the most logical best move for MS they are clearly run by geniuses.
DogsofJune
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Wow, testosterone pissing match....
I will report that Fallout 3 NV does not work as yet. Still trying some other titles. It seems to install fine, but when you go to play, no game.
Gonna try Fallout 4 next.. Kinda sad that Path of Exile isn't a candidate.
Hopefully these are steps in a good direction from Steam
I will report that Fallout 3 NV does not work as yet. Still trying some other titles. It seems to install fine, but when you go to play, no game.
Gonna try Fallout 4 next.. Kinda sad that Path of Exile isn't a candidate.
Hopefully these are steps in a good direction from Steam
Nobu
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Fallout NV (besides having a native port already, iirc) is pretty buggy regardless. I have to save pretty often just in case it crashes or bugs out, on windows or linux.
I don't know about New Vegas as I never played it but I know with Fallout 3 I should have bound the quicksave key to my mouse with how often I had to use it with how often the game would crash. At certain points I'd autosave probably every 10-20 seconds simply because it seemed like it would crash every 30 seconds.
I've been playing with Linux for more than 10 years. This had given me a lot of enthusiasm for it again. I just ran Peggle Deluxe (small Windows game) through the Steam client and installed Wine to play with some other applications. Everything is not smooth and perfect, but it might be just enough to ditch Windows. More playing to do for sure. Very good news. Thanks!
naib
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If six years ago I was to say the hot new thing was windows running Linux native and supported by MS, people would have laughed
Nobu
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If six years ago I was to say we would soon have real-time raytracing in games people would laugh...
heatlesssun
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A lot less pointless than posting what you did with no data or context.
heatlesssun
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Don't run Windows titles, Heatlesssun's full of negatives regarding Linux. Run Windows titles, Heatlesssun's full of negatives regarding Linux.
LOL! I said point blank that what Valve did was necessary due to lack of native Linux gaming content. That's EXACTLY what the owner of GamingOnLinux said.
DogsofJune
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I dunno what you are all complaining about. Who doesn't appreciate options?
I for one am pleased. It opens up a great deal more of my Steam catalog on my Ubuntu box. Yes FO3 NV is a buggy piece. Though it didn't play, the idea that I can click on install and it does it's business without me jumping through some hoops is nice. FO4, Grim Dawn install and play very nicely.
It may not be perfect, but it will improve.
I might actually have to find a decent video card for my linux system now. Poor ol GTX 670 may not cut it.
I for one am pleased. It opens up a great deal more of my Steam catalog on my Ubuntu box. Yes FO3 NV is a buggy piece. Though it didn't play, the idea that I can click on install and it does it's business without me jumping through some hoops is nice. FO4, Grim Dawn install and play very nicely.
It may not be perfect, but it will improve.
I might actually have to find a decent video card for my linux system now. Poor ol GTX 670 may not cut it.
velusip
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Sorry for the very late reply; but yes, I believe it uses MELT and some other libs for video acceleration. Of course, depending on distro, YMMV.
BloodyIron
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Actually, I'm making progress with DaVinci Resolve, so far it's great! But, I don't have a finished video just yet
Oh, and it seems to chew up my CPU and GPU plenty!
Oh, and it seems to chew up my CPU and GPU plenty!
Actually, I'm making progress with DaVinci Resolve, so far it's great! But, I don't have a finished video just yet
Oh, and it seems to chew up my CPU and GPU plenty!
The limitations regarding the Linux trial version of DaVinci resolve put me off it a little, about the only format I can import as media is Quicktime.
naib
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Boom, Dark Souls 3 and Borderlands. Two desert island games that will keep me fed enough to not even have to dual boot anymore.
Windows 8.1 with ClassicShell has been serving me well and avoids the forced updates/reboots/spyware of 10, but there's something liberating and freeing about being able to stay Linux 24/7.
Windows 7 doesn't go EOL for another year and a half so that gives this new era of Linux Gaming some time to gain more momentum.
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Todd Walter
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Doesn't answer the real question, though, are they installed under "/usr/local" or "/opt"!
Nobu
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~/.steam (unless they changed that recently)Doesn't answer the real question, though, are they installed under "/usr/local" or "/opt"!
naib
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/Opt as I have my steamlib under /optDoesn't answer the real question, though, are they installed under "/usr/local" or "/opt"!
And wine has been around for years providing means to play games... When I first switched over I carried on playing bf1942 with my clan so .. I don't see what this "future of Linux gaming " bs is as you have been able to for over a decade,things just got better with the vulkan wrapper and equally easier with steam integration as before you would launch steam via wine NOW you don't have to
Galliumnine have given me the best experience using ubuntu with additional ppa's.
I've tried most common distro's but Ubuntu gives pretty good experience on gnome (ain't a kde fan) xfce is not too bad though.
BloodyIron
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I've yet to see an advantage for Gallium 9 over AMDGPU or nVidia blob for either camp. FPS is mad high with those two options.
Red Falcon
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Have to completely agree with you on this, and on a per game/application basis for Valve and/or devs, this might actually be the happy medium we've always wanted and just didn't know it - might also be the best option due to licensing as well on the legal side.
While Linux is a great OS, and has come a long ways in the last decade, so has Windows, and Windows 10 is by far the best and most efficient iteration of Microsoft's OS to date for both desktop and mobile - far better than Windows XP/7/8.1 could have ever been, though it will never be better than 2000 Pro.
Speaking of which, nearly 6 years ago was our final battle of 2012:
Here's to another 6 years of debate and banter, friend - cheers!
I want to leave Windows for gaming, but there are several things still holding me back.