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Starcraft II

petertew said:
I played a lot of SC1 but didn't really follow the eSports scene at that point. What is wrong with Blizzard maps that other map makers do so much better? I've played some ICCup maps and like them but didn't see what made them so much better.
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There isn't a 'worse' or 'better' really, but there are definitely some maps that cause very tricky situations for specific matchups. Jungle Basin for instance is very tough ZvT, since middle-late game there isn't a comfortable third expansion for zerg and the constricted middle area makes it technically difficult to pressure without already having a significant advantage. There are some other unnecessary differences too- Scrap Station has one ramp farther away than the other, meaning you'll need an extra creep tumor to reach the bottom.

iCCup maps are usually very well taken since they're mostly (if not all) copies of SC1 maps that have had decades of fine-tuning to balance, something none of the Blizzard maps have had (sans LT.)

I'd really like to see some bigger 1v1 maps or more open (I love XelNaga Caverns) that allow for positional play (and a counter-based unit macro play), but that's just because I play a reflexive Zerg. Generally Blizzard has done a pretty good job; with the exception of Delta Quadrant and Jungle Basin I'll play any of the maps without any real complaint.
 
petertew said:
I played a lot of SC1 but didn't really follow the eSports scene at that point. What is wrong with Blizzard maps that other map makers do so much better? I've played some ICCup maps and like them but didn't see what made them so much better.
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short distances on some maps / spawn positions make games very volatile and heavily dependent on scouting. scouting options for Protoss and Zerg are very poor until a certain level of tech is reached. however, by the time they reach that tech, the most important timing to try to figure out what the opponent is going to try to do and react to it has long passed so players are left with making educated guesses until they can get an observer / overseer to actually see what's going on.

and then there are map imbalances that Terran can abuse and Zerg just has to take it for a while until a certain level of tech is reached.

many people claim that Starcraft 1 / Brood War was one of the most balanced RTSes ever. the thing is while Blizzard did make balance adjustments, the game was still very imbalanced in that balance was dependent and varied by maps. it was the community (not Blizzard) that produced maps that were considered balance. with SC2, it is Blizzard that has control over the competitive map pool and a move to community made maps for competitive play is extremely doubtful at this time.
 
udneekgnim said:
short distances on some maps / spawn positions make games very volatile and heavily dependent on scouting. scouting options for Protoss and Zerg are very poor until a certain level of tech is reached. however, by the time they reach that tech, the most important timing to try to figure out what the opponent is going to try to do and react to it has long passed so players are left with making educated guesses until they can get an observer / overseer to actually see what's going on.

and then there are map imbalances that Terran can abuse and Zerg just has to take it for a while until a certain level of tech is reached.

many people claim that Starcraft 1 / Brood War was one of the most balanced RTSes ever. the thing is while Blizzard did make balance adjustments, the game was still very imbalanced in that balance was dependent and varied by maps. it was the community (not Blizzard) that produced maps that were considered balance. with SC2, it is Blizzard that has control over the competitive map pool and a move to community made maps for competitive play is extremely doubtful at this time.
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That makes a ton of sense. Hopefully David Kim and the rest of the team at Blizzard understand this and choose to stay humble and open to community driven initiatives to keep the game balanced through careful map design. Overall I think they've done a great job on the game so far.
 
yes game has so much potential but its going to go to waste if they continue to focus on unit balance around current line up of ladder maps available.. races aren't imbalanced as people believe
 
In general the SC1 maps were larger and promoted more macro play.

Maps like Lost Temple have obvious exploit spots above the natural expansion for tanks and thors. For the same reason, Kulas Ravine was pulled from the ladder pool.
 
I swear the higher up in Diamond I get the more cheese I have to deal with. Last night I'm playing against a Zerg and he writes, "Dang, I was AFK. :S. What race are you?" I tell him Protoss, wish him luck and scout him about five seconds later to find that he was full of shit and was going for an all in zergling/probe rush. I held it off and ended up beating him, but it seriously pissed me off. I'm playing mostly 2300+ Diamond players and finding that the level of cheesy play is increasing. I'm not against cheese per se, but it just feels like I'm hitting people who only know how to cheese and that is how they've gotten ranked.

/end rant
 
I hate cheese. It's a great feeling when you beat it but it really limits your options, unless you don't mind losing to the cheesiest of cheeses once in awhile...and I do mind. I also see a lot of pros doing openings that look fairly vulnerable to cheeses. Does it just not happen at that level or am I just not seeing those replays?
 
cheese back at him :p I think HDStarcraft had a commented laddar game where he counter, and outchessed a cheeser :D
 
jeremyshaw said:
cheese back at him :p I think HDStarcraft had a commented laddar game where he counter, and outchessed a cheeser :D
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After his cheese failed we both only had about 7 probes. I had more production and a slight economy advantage, but i wasn't in a position to do anything back. After fending off the early cheese attempt it became a macro game and lo and behold I crushed him.
 
petertew said:
After his cheese failed we both only had about 7 probes. I had more production and a slight economy advantage, but i wasn't in a position to do anything back. After fending off the early cheese attempt it became a macro game and lo and behold I crushed him.
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lol... skill > a likely leeched build order from TL forums :p
Nice job , btw. Sucessfully countering cheese is always enjoyable:)
 
Crash250f said:
I hate cheese. It's a great feeling when you beat it but it really limits your options, unless you don't mind losing to the cheesiest of cheeses once in awhile...and I do mind. I also see a lot of pros doing openings that look fairly vulnerable to cheeses. Does it just not happen at that level or am I just not seeing those replays?
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Sometimes they are vulnerable, but good scouting can prevent most cheeses from succeeding. Regardless, the Season 2 champ of the GSL (Nestea) lost to a Terran player (Rain) in a best of 5 by 2 Marine/SCV all-ins and a bunker rush for the 3rd. Offensive bunkers aren't always cheesy (often used to set up an early contain), but they were used for the kill there. If I remember correctly, Nestea 14 Hatched on Steppes of War, a map which screams early pressure and rushes. So even top level players can get a little carried away.
 
petertew said:
I swear the higher up in Diamond I get the more cheese I have to deal with. Last night I'm playing against a Zerg and he writes, "Dang, I was AFK. :S. What race are you?" I tell him Protoss, wish him luck and scout him about five seconds later to find that he was full of shit and was going for an all in zergling/probe rush. I held it off and ended up beating him, but it seriously pissed me off. I'm playing mostly 2300+ Diamond players and finding that the level of cheesy play is increasing. I'm not against cheese per se, but it just feels like I'm hitting people who only know how to cheese and that is how they've gotten ranked.

/end rant
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people are expecting a ladder reset when patch 1.2 hits

you seeing a lot more cheesier play might just be the result of more people not giving a shit on ladder and fooling around until the reset comes
 
when game heavily relies on gimmick and cheesey play you know something is wrong
 
udneekgnim said:
people are expecting a ladder reset when patch 1.2 hits

you seeing a lot more cheesier play might just be the result of more people not giving a shit on ladder and fooling around until the reset comes
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I would think the opposite considering people who cheese only want easy wins. What good are easy wins if it is going to be erased in a few days? I can see more people cheesing after the reset though

I only see cheese about 10-15% of my games in Diamond by the way. It's usually proxy 2 gate also.
 
ThumperSD said:
I would think the opposite considering people who cheese only want easy wins. What good are easy wins if it is going to be erased in a few days? I can see more people cheesing after the reset though

I only see cheese about 10-15% of my games in Diamond by the way. It's usually proxy 2 gate also.
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I see that one plenty often as well. And canon rushing.
 
So I'm a newer SC2 player and finally found out what "cheese" was. I read a few cheeses on teamliquid and kinda tred a couple during my "newbie" phase. They all worked awesome and I ruled the day, so I figured I should skip this newbie crap and go jump in with the big boys. Then when I went to get ranked I got my face kicked in 5 times. :( And they all seemed to be "cheese". Seems like if I would have caught them doing what they were doing, they'd be fucked. But I didn't and they got away with it so I got screwed.

I played 2 matches so far in my bronze loser league (I play Terran). Lost the first one and won the 2nd. The one I won I still probably shouldn't have. Set up a couple bunkers with marines, expanded, did a little harras with a couple medivacs full of marines (which was surprisingly effective) then I built 3 starports and started cranking out BC's.

Is there somewhere that I can upload my replays for critiques? I watch what I'm doing and I think I open well, but after the 2nd or 3rd SD I start panicking and end up with a whole mess of marines cause I don't have enough gas going.
 
Bonksnp said:
So I'm a newer SC2 player and finally found out what "cheese" was. I read a few cheeses on teamliquid and kinda tred a couple during my "newbie" phase. They all worked awesome and I ruled the day, so I figured I should skip this newbie crap and go jump in with the big boys. Then when I went to get ranked I got my face kicked in 5 times. :( And they all seemed to be "cheese". Seems like if I would have caught them doing what they were doing, they'd be fucked. But I didn't and they got away with it so I got screwed.

I played 2 matches so far in my bronze loser league (I play Terran). Lost the first one and won the 2nd. The one I won I still probably shouldn't have. Set up a couple bunkers with marines, expanded, did a little harras with a couple medivacs full of marines (which was surprisingly effective) then I built 3 starports and started cranking out BC's.

Is there somewhere that I can upload my replays for critiques? I watch what I'm doing and I think I open well, but after the 2nd or 3rd SD I start panicking and end up with a whole mess of marines cause I don't have enough gas going.
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I use sc2replayed.com to upload mine. Can you describe the cheese you're facing?
 
Yeah, cheese is fairly common in all levels. I see it in silver 1v1 up all the way to plat 3v3 and 4v4.
 
petertew said:
I use sc2replayed.com to upload mine. Can you describe the cheese you're facing?
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Cool, yea I kinda found that after I posted last night. I guess I'll start uploading mine and downloading others to watch build orders.

One of them (cheeses) was TvT and he flew all his barracks into my base and started massing marines at the bottom. (I think he sent an scv up near my base to build then "jumped" them in) By the time I noticed, he was landing his 3rd rax. I had sent most of my marines to harras his base (which I walked right into and did) but his marines killed my base faster then I could kill his. Another one was TvP where he kept building assimilators on my gas deposits. AND he built a pylon down at the bottom of my base which he used to warp in his zealots and well, yea. I actually fought him off for a while but I was so far behind bby that point it was kinda hopeless.
 
Bonksnp said:
Another one was TvP where he kept building assimilators on my gas deposits. AND he built a pylon down at the bottom of my base which he used to warp in his zealots and well, yea. I actually fought him off for a while but I was so far behind bby that point it was kinda hopeless.
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I've seen this a few times. Generally T has at least one gas up by the time I send a scout (9 food as P). But if you see him drop an assimilator on one, immediately build a refinery on the other. Generally the assimilator drop is more of an annoyance than cheese, unless you were planning on going hard gas off the bat (my guess is he was trying to stop/slow cloak banshee harass by you). Once you have a marine just chase the Probe out of there/destroy it.

As far as the proxy pylon, he was probably doing 4 gate. 4 gate is something you should catch when scouting, if he blocks his ramp with a single Zealot early with the combo of Gate/Cyber as a wall then you can assume 4 gate (the whole point being him not wanting you to see those other 3 gates being built). If he doesnt block the ramp and you see the cyber being chronoboosted with 3 additional gates building start looking for that forward pylon (and preparing your ramp). I'd recommend using a bunker as part of you wall and SCVs to heal bigger wall buildings like Rax.
 
Bonksnp said:
So I'm a newer SC2 player and finally found out what "cheese" was. I read a few cheeses on teamliquid and kinda tred a couple during my "newbie" phase. They all worked awesome and I ruled the day, so I figured I should skip this newbie crap and go jump in with the big boys. Then when I went to get ranked I got my face kicked in 5 times. :( And they all seemed to be "cheese". Seems like if I would have caught them doing what they were doing, they'd be fucked. But I didn't and they got away with it so I got screwed.

I played 2 matches so far in my bronze loser league (I play Terran). Lost the first one and won the 2nd. The one I won I still probably shouldn't have. Set up a couple bunkers with marines, expanded, did a little harras with a couple medivacs full of marines (which was surprisingly effective) then I built 3 starports and started cranking out BC's.

Is there somewhere that I can upload my replays for critiques? I watch what I'm doing and I think I open well, but after the 2nd or 3rd SD I start panicking and end up with a whole mess of marines cause I don't have enough gas going.
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Not to discourage you from playing but this game has a pretty steep learning curve. It's not just any other FPS you can pick up and learn after a couple hours of play. The satisfaction of improving in this game is greater than any other though. Keep playing consistently and you will be amazed by how much you improve. Also get used to losing.

I highly recommend checking out Day9's dailies. It will help anybody from bronze to pro players.

Day9:
http://www.youtube.com/user/day9tv
http://day9tv.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dc
 
Maybe I'm just being lucky, but I can't even remember the last time I was cheesed. I've had a couple ling all-ins against me, but thats hardly cheese. I usually play 24/2500 diamond.
 
+1 for day9.

I had never played a multiplayer RTS before SC2, and I just couldn't figure it out on my own. I think it was the first page of this thread that led me to his dailies, and after listening to him for awhile (particularly the ones listed in the first post of this thread) and practicing it in game, the game just became soooo much more enjoyable. I went from a completely clueless noob to almost getting into diamond in about 200 ladder games, and with relatively solid strats too (no cheesing). I gotta start playing again and finally get into diamond.
 
kencheeto said:
Maybe I'm just being lucky, but I can't even remember the last time I was cheesed. I've had a couple ling all-ins against me, but thats hardly cheese. I usually play 24/2500 diamond.
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Hey ken! We should play sometime again! I'm looking to get some practice partners going.. :p
 
I need practice, but I'm probably going to continue not to play much until I graduate in March. I've been off racing Zerg quite a bit. I might switch, but it's questionable right now, I'm thinking I might be more suited to random... I'm so confused! :D :D
 
^ I've already switched to zerg -- I think I told you that a little while back. We should all practice! Me you and ken, just like old times :p
 
Yeah we should, we're all just so damn busy. I played a few zerg games against some of the guys from TL. They have a few practice partner threads, it was enjoyable but I got crushed. My protoss still feels okay, but I'm just tired of playing protoss all of the time. Maybe I should just drop down to platinum and play random.
 
Decko87 said:
Yeah we should, we're all just so damn busy. I played a few zerg games against some of the guys from TL. They have a few practice partner threads, it was enjoyable but I got crushed. My protoss still feels okay, but I'm just tired of playing protoss all of the time. Maybe I should just drop down to platinum and play random.
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Random is pretty fun when you feel burnt out imo. It's just something to get you playing still.. haha.
 
petertew said:
I swear the higher up in Diamond I get the more cheese I have to deal with. Last night I'm playing against a Zerg and he writes, "Dang, I was AFK. :S. What race are you?" I tell him Protoss, wish him luck and scout him about five seconds later to find that he was full of shit and was going for an all in zergling/probe rush. I held it off and ended up beating him, but it seriously pissed me off. I'm playing mostly 2300+ Diamond players and finding that the level of cheesy play is increasing. I'm not against cheese per se, but it just feels like I'm hitting people who only know how to cheese and that is how they've gotten ranked.

/end rant
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The current ladder rotation for SC2 literally have some maps with spawn points opposite of each other. Opposed to random cross spawn points in WC3 ( LT, Gnoll Wood) for 1v1. The majority of the 2v2 maps were shared with ranked 1v1. Meaning, on a 2v2 map such as Gnoll wood there would be a player for each spawn point. For 1v1 same map, spawns were always random which always required scouting. It was not unommon to send two peons or summons go through waypoints in opposite directions. I suggest you opt out of maps with short distances with spawn points directly opposite of each other to lessen the cheese games you've been experiencing.
 
I dunno my play has been overall bad lately (I play against ~2700's diamond) and been losing lots of my matches when I should have been winning. Just in a huge slump. Need to take a breather and just get back into it later.

Anywho.. no more gaming for a day or two!
 
And... this is what happens when you cheese to top 200 and don't do much else.

Roommate who is normally protoss subbed in as my 2v2 partner in CSL... but he had to play Terran (since the person he was replacing was T). He had no idea how to stop a scv from building. Lost 2 scv's to a single probe. Never finished his first barracks. It was the most embarrassing game ever.
 
refraxion said:
^ I've already switched to zerg -- I think I told you that a little while back. We should all practice! Me you and ken, just like old times :p
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Decko87 said:
Yeah we should, we're all just so damn busy. I played a few zerg games against some of the guys from TL. They have a few practice partner threads, it was enjoyable but I got crushed. My protoss still feels okay, but I'm just tired of playing protoss all of the time. Maybe I should just drop down to platinum and play random.
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I'm working 30 hours plus my last semester of classes.. I don't think I'm going to be able to play barely at all :\

What do your guys' mapstats look like on sc2ranks? I was pretty surprised, I suck ass on Shakuras (12-20) which I thought my playstyle would be suited for.. Seem to do very well on Xel'Naga though (23-9).
 
petertew said:
"Lucky noob" <- LOL

Good replay. SCVz was a dumbass with his vikings and how he handled your back door tank pressure. He deserved to lose.
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yeah lol, regardless of what I say in the beginning to throw him off I was wining consistently 3-2 vs lower tiered diamonds before quitting league play to focus on my rl project.
 
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how do i move up to Gold division or something better than bronze? in 1v1 and 2v2 im bronze and in 3v3 and 4v4 im gold and silver. That makes no sense!
 
dioxholster said:
how do i move up to Gold division or something better than bronze? in 1v1 and 2v2 im bronze and in 3v3 and 4v4 im gold and silver. That makes no sense!
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3v3 and 4v4 are generally less competitive and balanced than 1v1s. 2v2 is weird in that it gets some balance attention but is still much less competitive than 1v1.

I'd say get practice partners for 1v1s who are better than you and start practicing and looking for feedback from them. Most people will reply "macro!" and while getting stuff is always good it's important to maintain common sense so you don't piss away units to a siege tank line, engage a colossi supported army with only marines, etc. I'd say the best advice I've heard is to identify a problem with your play and focus on fixing that one problem while letting nothing else slip. Eventually you'll smooth out enough problems that you can best your opponents who make more mistakes more often.

Additionally the team games are where mechanics can be worked on in a much more relaxed environment.
 
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