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Starcraft II

No idea what you guys are talking about - I watched almost all of season 3 gsl and one base play dominated there too. That's the play that's being copied by ladder players. Sure there are some awesome macro players, but most people will never get to their level of understanding of the game and various timings, so why not copy best 1base play instead.

I hit the ladder after not playing for a month and a half and the first two "master" players I came up against did 2rax marine+scv all in and a 4gate. Yep, same as before.

What's funny to me is that back around september diamond play for me was 80% of the time about macro, as if people started out thinking that that's how the game is supposed to be played. Yet the more time passed, the more things have swung the other way. That's not a sign of a deep game I'm afraid.
 
Aix said:
No idea what you guys are talking about - I watched almost all of season 3 gsl and one base play dominated there too. That's the play that's being copied by ladder players. Sure there are some awesome macro players, but most people will never get to their level of understanding of the game and various timings, so why not copy best 1base play instead.
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'1 base play' is an extremely generic statement and doesn't really mean anything by itself. Strategies aren't black and white. In general you can't really copy a lot of what high level tournament players do unless you can pull it off as well as they can. Most of the time players are lower levels need to simply improve the basics of the game to get better rather than change up strategies. Also, 1 base != all in.
 
Games are decidedly not black and white. My regular practice partner is a highly aggressive one base player and I throw him off his game by forcing him to macro and keep the game going for long durations. Sometimes he gets the upper hand with an excellent push early game; sometimes I defend perfectly and extend the game.

The people who copy an extremely aggressive one base build are the ones who get to diamond quickly and immediately stop winning. If you look around you'll see all sorts of posts about how some person played protoss and 4-gated their way straight into diamond, and then about how they had a very large streak of losses until they learned 3-gate expand. This is the nature of the game; a straight build order is inversely as powerful as the amount of public knowledge about it. Once it becomes popular everyone learns how to both use and counter it. A 4-gate is very predictable and is easily scouted whereas a 3-gate expand build opens up a lot more options and unpredictability. Even if you don't wind up expanding relatively quickly you free up resources to get forge and/or twilight council upgrades.
 
Aix said:
Why would you try to concoct your own terrible strategies when there is a whole stable of dedicated dudes testing every possible variation of every strategy for 12 hours a day, every day, against the best players in the world, and then demonstrating the most effective ones in tournament games?
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Because then you are playing the game and not having other players do it for you.

:)
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
'1 base play' is an extremely generic statement and doesn't really mean anything by itself.
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:confused: It means exactly what it says, playing stacraft 2 from a single base. That's plenty meaningful.

rigphoria said:
The people who copy an extremely aggressive one base build are the ones who get to diamond quickly and immediately stop winning.
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That has not been my experience. I often see talk of these fabled one-trick-ponies who know nothing except that one effective build order they found on teamliquid, and the moment they meet someone competent they fold like a lawn chair. From what I've seen those aggressive players can usually follow up just fine and you can find them at the top of their diamond divisions (and looks like masters now).
 
^ I've been beating said one trick ponies when I was in diamond (before masters came out, plus I take about 2weeks to a month break from the game) everytime I come back, I beat people 1-1.5k rating higher than I do. Why? One trick ponies that I have seen since beta. They don't know anything.

Even funnier is that I see mass thor play against Zerg, they always think a zerg goes muta/ling. What do I do to counter? I mass roaches and just move in for the kill, he didn't have enough to defend it and whined that I didn't go muta/ling.

Such scrubby play even in masters.

Also.. 1 base play can mean a lot of things -- either you're terrible, or you're doing something all-in (Not necessarily terrible, but if you do it all the time.. yeah you're just another BitByBit), or you're doing a legitimate strategy (4 gate etc). Terrans can live off one base for a bit but even then they need to expo faster. A 1 base zerg against any other race than itself is going to lose 100% of the time unless the other player is bad.
 
Aix said:
:confused: It means exactly what it says, playing stacraft 2 from a single base. That's plenty meaningful.
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... a 6 pool is '1 base play' as is a 4 gate. There are so many different 1 base play strategies. If you categorize all of them and lump them all into one thing then the game is literally black and white: 1 base play and not 1 base play. Clearly the game is more dynamic than that.

So making a statement such as '1 base play dominated GSL' is so meaningless. I can say making workers dominated GSL and it'd be just as meaningless.
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
... a 6 pool is '1 base play' as is a 4 gate. There are so many different 1 base play strategies. If you categorize all of them and lump them all into one thing then the game is literally black and white: 1 base play and not 1 base play. Clearly the game is more dynamic than that.

So making a statement such as '1 base play dominated GSL' is so meaningless. I can say making workers dominated GSL and it'd be just as meaningless.
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+1.

Basically people who just copy strategies VERBATIM, and don't know why it is done the way it is, won't progress very far. And if they do, its not skill -- its the build order that won it for them. TSL_Rain anyone?
 
Bobthecoolguy said:
Because then you are playing the game and not having other players do it for you.

:)
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Sure, ok. I was making my statement in the context of competitive higher league play where if you try to make your own strats you'll basically fall on your face over and over trying to reinvent the optimized openings that everyone else has gotten their hands on already.

If your next question is why would anyone want to play in those leagues where such copy cat behavior is required, I don't really know. It happens naturally somehow. You get a game, you have fun with it for a while, you discover things, you get better, a competitive spirit begins to develop, you lose to good players and try to figure out how exactly it happened, eventually fun and winning blend together and the difference between a disappointing loss and a feelings of satisfaction becomes whether you cut worker production in time to have the exact amount of resources required for the right timing. At least that's the progression I go through with RTS games, but in the end the game just isn't nearly as fun as when I first start playing it :)
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
... a 6 pool is '1 base play' as is a 4 gate. There are so many different 1 base play strategies. If you categorize all of them and lump them all into one thing then the game is literally black and white: 1 base play and not 1 base play. Clearly the game is more dynamic than that.

So making a statement such as '1 base play dominated GSL' is so meaningless. I can say making workers dominated GSL and it'd be just as meaningless.
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That's such a hyperbole. Categorizing can be meaningful and not turn things into black and white. If I say "car", does that mean anything to you? It could be a sports car, a minivan, or just a regular ole' car. There are many different varieties of cars, but the word "car" still has meaning. You know it's some kind of a small land vehicle with a motor and a couple of wheels.

And when I say "1 base play", there are many varieties of play that can happen there too, but it means that a strong attack will happen off of one base. To me it means 1) almost no economy management since the only decisions are when to get gas and cut probes and 2) almost no map control play. I always thought that economy and map control were as big a strategy in RTS games as anything else, and when I'm in a 3base vs 3base game on metalopolis I still feel that way, but "1 base play" as I categorize it just about removes those elements.
 
Aix said:
Sure, ok. I was making my statement in the context of competitive higher league play where if you try to make your own strats you'll basically fall on your face over and over trying to reinvent the optimized openings that everyone else has gotten their hands on already.

If your next question is why would anyone want to play in those leagues where such copy cat behavior is required, I don't really know. It happens naturally somehow. You get a game, you have fun with it for a while, you discover things, you get better, a competitive spirit begins to develop, you lose to good players and try to figure out how exactly it happened, eventually fun and winning blend together and the difference between a disappointing loss and a feelings of satisfaction becomes whether you cut worker production in time to have the exact amount of resources required for the right timing. At least that's the progression I go through with RTS games, but in the end the game just isn't nearly as fun as when I first start playing it :)
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+1

It's not like there is anything new in basketball. People still run the pick and roll and toss alleyoops to each other. Just because you practice shots you've seen better players execute or run drills that better teams run doesn't mean you're somehow cheapening the game. Competitive games (and really competition in a lot of things) comes down to execution under pressure. Who can execute the best and pull the W out.
 
Aix said:
Sure, ok. I was making my statement in the context of competitive higher league play where if you try to make your own strats you'll basically fall on your face over and over trying to reinvent the optimized openings that everyone else has gotten their hands on already.

If your next question is why would anyone want to play in those leagues where such copy cat behavior is required, I don't really know. It happens naturally somehow. You get a game, you have fun with it for a while, you discover things, you get better, a competitive spirit begins to develop, you lose to good players and try to figure out how exactly it happened, eventually fun and winning blend together and the difference between a disappointing loss and a feelings of satisfaction becomes whether you cut worker production in time to have the exact amount of resources required for the right timing. At least that's the progression I go through with RTS games, but in the end the game just isn't nearly as fun as when I first start playing it :)
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+2

I know my opinion isn't very valid since I suck and I'm a n00bie bronze player in what seems to be an endless sea of Gold/Diamond/Master/Supreme Being + players, but I agree with above, and I'll explain why.

Each time I play and lose, I will go back and watch the replay (if I don't already know why I lost) to find out where things went wrong. I find out one thing that I did wrong, make sure I remember next game and go again. After watching several Day9 videos, he likes to pinpoint the exact moment the game is over, even though both players are still alive and well. And I finally understood what that meant after a few webisodes. But if I were to go out, memorize cheese and just do that, yea, I might win more, but how will I be able to respond creatively when my strategy doesn't work? Furthermore, why don't I just go play AI, set it to easy and kick the shit out of them all day?

Anyways, Northrop has been a Godsend for me lately. Each time we play he kicks my face in and then we talk about how and why he did, then go again. I lose again. figure out why, and then go again. I don't want to use some strategy I learned off of the internet, because IMO that takes away from my gaming experience and the thrill of actually winning a game.

IMO people who cheese are only hurting their own game. If they want to actually have fun, it would benefit them to learn how to play themselves instead of reading how they should play online.
 
Northrop has been in my list forever, but I never get a chance to play with him :(

My current H SC2 buddy is Deluded, although at oft times his ISP lags him out for days without good reason...

Anyway, I agree one of the best things to do in sc2 is find good friend(s) to play with. Play with them often, and offer advice.
 
^But, but... we DO play games together! Granted, we never play against each other, but still... :D

Anyway, I have a rather busy schedule 'til the end of this month, and won't be playing much again. But I hope to be on every now and then.
 
BusyBeaverHP said:
Jinro vs IdrA tomorrow!
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I'm pretty new to SC2 and watching replays has really helped my game. Idra has been one that I've seen before and recognize. Will there be a live stream for this match tomorrow and will it have commentators? The only commentators that I've watched are: Day9, OneManZerg, SCVRush, and Psystarcraft.
 
00PS said:
I'm pretty new to SC2 and watching replays has really helped my game. Idra has been one that I've seen before and recognize. Will there be a live stream for this match tomorrow and will it have commentators? The only commentators that I've watched are: Day9, OneManZerg, SCVRush, and Psystarcraft.
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www.gomtv.net -- you need to be registered and it goes live late at night usually for the free stream.
 
Unless GOM changed things, their start time for matches is 5am EST or so. If you don't mind watching with the Korean commentators you can usually find streams of the game the next day. For some reason they have a tight leash around the foreign commentary videos.

If you enjoy watching pro games, $10 for the season ticket is well worth it. You get HQ streams and VODs the day after the matches happen. Tasteless and Artosis, the English commentators for the tournament, are quite entertaining on top of some amazing games. Those folks are playing for a 90k USD prize pool, they mean business.
 
As Zerg and a big IdrA fan, I will cheer for my BM hero... But objectively my money's placed on Jinro.

BM Zerg vs Gorilla Terran! Gogogo!
 
My money's on Jinro:

GTQ4k.gif
 
Yeah, in the GSL I will always root for Idra, except when he's playing against Jinro. Although I think if Ret manages to make it to Code S for the next tournament I'll have a new player to root for 100% of the time :p

I hate Terran, but Jinro just rules. He's the only player in the whole thing that actually seems to allow his gameplan to evolve in creative ways when the situation dictates it. Going mech against MC was maybe the most epic on the spot choice in any of these tournaments so far. Pure win. Just, so, so awesome.
 
i been really pulling for idra since season 1. It sucks he lost but this is his best season yet. He could be a real contender soon.
 
Deluded said:
Wow, the first match between marineking and nada... holy shit, that was good.
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+1 million

I'm right towards the end of the game and I have no idea how it's going to end, but holy hell this is amazing. Everyone needs to see this.

edit: Game three as well. Damn these guys are amazing.
 
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Pretty underwhelming so far, MVP crushing MarineKing hard in the first two games. So far he's seen every move MarineKing has made coming in advance.
 
Heh, who was the one who was calling me out earlier in the thread for spoiling??

Where are you now?!
 
I don't think there's much to spoil for this one. Watching MVP crush four games in a row isn't exactly the pinnacle of excitement.
 
ThinJ said:
I don't think there's much to spoil for this one. Watching MVP crush four games in a row isn't exactly the pinnacle of excitement.
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That's not the point though, lol. I'm not blaming you for spoiling anything, I just don't remember the person calling me out for "spoiling" a GSL match.
 
It looked like MarineKing went into the games feeling as though he was the inferior player and tried certain things that I've never really seen him do. His play lacked confidence and there were numerous poor decisions that were simply uncharacteristic of such a high level player (running into tanks etc.).

Anyone else see the white chick in the crowd holding up a IMMVP sign?
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
It looked like MarineKing went into the games feeling as though he was the inferior player and tried certain things that I've never really seen him do. His play lacked confidence and there were numerous poor decisions that were simply uncharacteristic of such a high level player (running into tanks etc.).

Anyone else see the white chick in the crowd holding up a IMMVP sign?
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Yeah I saw that haha.

For sure though. MKP did not play up to how well he usually does. He didn't play his "style"... he kept going for some random tanks and it just never went well for him. If he went with marines coupled with his upgrades.. he would have won a few of those fights against IMMVP like in Xel Naga caverns when he attacks MVP, if he had marines instead of those maruaders with the 2/2 upgrade against MVP's 1/1.. he would have taken that right then and there with all those medivacs. Then again, who is to say MVP would have played like that if MVP played his standard.. MVP got into the head of MKP for sure. MKP also once said MVP was the best terran there is in an interview.. so that might have lingered in his head during the entire match.
 
Agreed! I can't help but think that if MKP just stuck to his bioball + medivac style he could have stolen at least 2 games, if not force it to go to 7.

I hope blowouts in the finals aren't going to become a regular occurrence in GSL.
 
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