Starcraft II

[Nearsite]

EDIT: I hate my KB. It has a tendancy of dyslexia, which isn't present on my laptop... oh well.
and what does this have to do with it?

A mothership costs a crap ton of resources early on, so unless if your oponent isn't agressive enough, or isn't scouting enough mid game, then well... one mothership won't make a single difference.

It's some 400min/300gas+fleetbeacon+stargate (which will remain unsused because of the sheer cost of the mothership - this all depends on timing, of course).

But an amply agressive Protoss player with enough units and production will never get to the point of having enough resources for a mothership, IMO.

HDstarcraft did cast one game about a month ago with a mothership play, but that was it. And it all came down to a mistake made in collosii placement & reinforcing units, not the mothership (though the final vortex sealed the deal).

My point is that P also has a unit which is generally never used and it's suppose to be the P's ultimate unit.

Seemed like the point of your post was to express your frustration with all the nerf's Terran has recieved and I was just calling out one of the examples you use. The fact is, we can all complain about any race. If you want to play me let me know.

 

[jeremyshaw]

My point is that P also has a unit which is generally never used and it's suppose to be the P's ultimate unit.

Seemed like the point of your post was to express your frustration with all the nerf's Terran has recieved and I was just calling out one of the examples you use. The fact is, we can all complain about any race. If you want to play me let me know.

... I wasn't calling out anything BUT the mothership. I dunno if the person you quoted previous to my post was doing what, since I have a bit of forum ADD

The game I was mentioning was a PvP, but I think I butted my way into somebody else's conversation, sorry

 

[petertew]

^ GRUDGE MATCH!!!!!

 

[ThumperSD]

Id like to see Arbiters come back but they cost more energy to cast the same spells as the mommaship

 

[jeremyshaw]

^ GRUDGE MATCH!!!!!

BOOM! omph!

 

[northrop]

Id like to see Arbiters come back but they cost more energy to cast the same spells as the mommaship

While it's Christmas time, and everyone is wishing for something... I wish for Lurkers to come back! (Scourge would've been nice too. Either one of them... I'm not picky)

 

[Deluded]

Lukers, definitely. Zergs lack a siege unit. Toss have immortals and collosi, terran have their tanks and zergs... zergs have roaches, hydra, and more roaches!

LURKERS PLUZ!

 

[northrop]

We've got BL's, though they are at the very end of the tech tree...

 

[ThumperSD]

Lurkers is the one unit that I want to see back the most, even though I dont play zerg in SC2. My zerg in BW is 1337 though... well it used to be

With that said I think it's a bit pointless to have Mothership and Arbiter in the same game. Same with Lurkers and Banelings.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

With that said I think it's a bit pointless to have Mothership and Arbiter in the same game. Same with Lurkers and Banelings.

Not at all with regards to lurkers and banelings...

The lurker they took out did extra damage to armored units unlike banelings. It moved at well over 3.0 speed and burrowed in less than 1/2 a second. This lurker was on steroids. This lurker was of course, a tier 3 unit.

I seriously don't buy blizzard's "lurker and baneling are redundant" argument. That's like saying siege tanks and hellion are redundant because they both do AOE damage. No sense.

In practice I get the feeling that lurkers would get destroyed by marauders. The real issue with the lurker they took out was that it only had SIX range, that's incredibly bad for a unit that can't attack unless it's stationary.

At tier 3, it'd have the same issue as the ultralisk in terms of tech time and availability. There is clearly a missing combat unit between Hydralisk and Ultralisk, but the Lurker can fit that role only after a lot of tweaking.

 

[jeremyshaw]

Not at all with regards to lurkers and banelings...

The lurker they took out did extra damage to armored units unlike banelings. It moved at well over 3.0 speed and burrowed in less than 1/2 a second. This lurker was on steroids. This lurker was of course, a tier 3 unit.

I seriously don't buy blizzard's "lurker and baneling are redundant" argument. That's like saying siege tanks and hellion are redundant because they both do AOE damage. No sense.

In practice I get the feeling that lurkers would get destroyed by marauders. The real issue with the lurker they took out was that it only had SIX range, that's incredibly bad for a unit that can't attack unless it's stationary.

At tier 3, it'd have the same issue as the ultralisk in terms of tech time and availability. There is clearly a missing combat unit between Hydralisk and Ultralisk, but the Lurker can fit that role only after a lot of tweaking.

Probably when the expansion (new game) launches

 

[Deluded]

We've got BL's, though they are at the very end of the tech tree...

Yeah, I'm talking about a tier 2.5 siege unit. Toss have their immortals (as I said), terrans have their tanks and zergs have nothing. Of course we do have BL, but they're so far in tech and cost and time required to "research" that it's impractical and usually the battle is over before most zergs reach that stage.

Hence a middle point. Most people have no qualms about attacking zerg bases -- they don't have strong defenses. terran usually has several tanks ready to go which makes the other player hesitate to mount a frontal attack.

 

[ThumperSD]

Not at all with regards to lurkers and banelings...

The lurker they took out did extra damage to armored units unlike banelings. It moved at well over 3.0 speed and burrowed in less than 1/2 a second. This lurker was on steroids. This lurker was of course, a tier 3 unit.

I seriously don't buy blizzard's "lurker and baneling are redundant" argument. That's like saying siege tanks and hellion are redundant because they both do AOE damage. No sense.

In practice I get the feeling that lurkers would get destroyed by marauders. The real issue with the lurker they took out was that it only had SIX range, that's incredibly bad for a unit that can't attack unless it's stationary.

At tier 3, it'd have the same issue as the ultralisk in terms of tech time and availability. There is clearly a missing combat unit between Hydralisk and Ultralisk, but the Lurker can fit that role only after a lot of tweaking.

I agree that Lurkers/Banelings arent as similar as Motherhship/Arbiters. Tanks and hellions however are used for completely different purposes. Tanks againss armored, higher HP units. Hellions against a lot of light units.

I think 6 range sounds about right though I have to see it in games before I make any real judgment. I can see marauders doing pretty well if they match in range but it would definitely lower the marine count. Marauders arent much to handle with cheap speedlings.

 

[Rarestormyranger]

i renenber the old days when the only strategic game was starcraft. And all that battlenet games all days and nigts we sit at. Where are that days now ?

 

[Vermillion]

When's the last time you saw a mothership come out in game? Do you even recall that there exists a unit for Protoss called the 'Mothership'?

How do you possibly compare a Mothership to a Reaper?

The Reaper was a great unit to help prevent cheese, cheese with yourself, use to scout or do hit and run damage. Now they're worthless for anything but early scouting and even that is iffy since if they get spit on they die and the Nitro Pack is from the Factory tech lab.

The nitro pack itself costs 50/50. Then you have to have the Factory and Tech lab on top of it. So what are we at? 150/100 + 50/25 + 50/50 right? So 250/200 is the actual cost of Nitro Packs. That's 2 marauders + shell upgrade and still have 100 gas left over so you can start teching to Factory/Starport for tanks or Medivacs. Tell me which would you rather have early in the game? The two Marauders with Concussive Shell or the worthless Reaper with Nitro Packs?

 

[petertew]

Tell me which would you rather have early in the game? The two Marauders with Concussive Shell or the worthless Reaper with Nitro Packs?

If I had Boxer's micro?

I do agree the reaper has been nerfed a bit too hard, and it seems like it was nerfed for team matches, which makes me worry about Blizzard's priorities.

 

[Nearsite]

How do you possibly compare a Mothership to a Reaper?

The Reaper was a great unit to help prevent cheese, cheese with yourself, use to scout or do hit and run damage. Now they're worthless for anything but early scouting and even that is iffy since if they get spit on they die and the Nitro Pack is from the Factory tech lab.

The nitro pack itself costs 50/50. Then you have to have the Factory and Tech lab on top of it. So what are we at? 150/100 + 50/25 + 50/50 right? So 250/200 is the actual cost of Nitro Packs. That's 2 marauders + shell upgrade and still have 100 gas left over so you can start teching to Factory/Starport for tanks or Medivacs. Tell me which would you rather have early in the game? The two Marauders with Concussive Shell or the worthless Reaper with Nitro Packs?

I'm not comparing the mothership to the reaper for their utility. I'm simply using the mothership as an example of a 'worthless' unit that P has. Atleast the Terran's 'worthless' unit is not suppose to be their ULTIMATE weapon.

 

[Vermillion]

If I had Boxer's micro?

I do agree the reaper has been nerfed a bit too hard, and it seems like it was nerfed for team matches, which makes me worry about Blizzard's priorities.

Actually SlayersBoxer would probably go two Marauders. Foxer (MarineKingPrime now) would just get Marines. Neither would waste resources on Reapers beyond maybe an early one without Nitro Pack for scouting

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

I agree that Lurkers/Banelings arent as similar as Motherhship/Arbiters. Tanks and hellions however are used for completely different purposes. Tanks againss armored, higher HP units. Hellions against a lot of light units.

I think 6 range sounds about right though I have to see it in games before I make any real judgment. I can see marauders doing pretty well if they match in range but it would definitely lower the marine count. Marauders arent much to handle with cheap speedlings.

That was my point. Hellion bonus to light, siege tank bonus to armored. Lurkers bonus to armored, banelings bonus to light.

You do realize that the idea of lurker spines is that it does AOE damage in a line (like the hellion), so matching the range of say marauders would make them worthless as AOE units since they'd only hit 1 marauder. That's why 6 range is pretty bad for a stationary 'siege' unit. Colossi and Tanks have 9 and 13 range for a reason. Either way, it's pointless to debate a unit that's not even in the game. My point was that it needs to be tweaked heavily if they ever introduce it.

If I had Boxer's micro?

I do agree the reaper has been nerfed a bit too hard, and it seems like it was nerfed for team matches, which makes me worry about Blizzard's priorities.

I think reapers should have never been introduced into the game to begin with. It was a terrible idea by design. The only reason people feel angsty about the reaper changes is because they don't realize that even if you took out the reaper as a unit the game would be fine. If reapers were never in the game, no one would say "I think terran needs a very fast unit that kills all other T1 units and can destroy workers in a few hits, oh and it can also hop on cliffs - and make it available with tech lab" Think about it.

I think the same can be said of the mothership. Protoss players feel angsty that their race is somehow weaker because their 'ultimate weapon' isn't viable as a straight tech. What if the mothership was never introduced. No one would give a damn about some 12 year old suggesting that protoss needs a super weapon at the nexus that costs your newborn child to produce and you can only have 1 of them.

 

[petertew]

I think reapers should have never been introduced into the game to begin with. It was a terrible idea by design. The only reason people feel angsty about the reaper changes is because they don't realize that even if you took out the reaper as a unit the game would be fine. If reapers were never in the game, no one would say "I think terran needs a very fast unit that kills all other T1 units and can destroy workers in a few hits, oh and it can also hop on cliffs - and make it available with tech lab" Think about it.

My biggest frustration with Terrans in general is that they simply have too many good harassing units. Banshees, medivac drops, reapers, even vikings. With all those options (prepatch) it made it extremely frustrating to try to leave your base and you were thus pinned for most of the match. The strong pinning/harassing ability coupled with Terran's built-in ability to turtle with the best defense in the game made it easier for Terrans to slowly expand while keeping Protoss players pinned. They still have this advantage, but it has been lessened thanks to the reaper changes. I was glad to see them nerfed, but still feel like it went a little overboard.

 

[Marshmallow64]

^ I completely agree, Terran just has too many harass units at tier 1 and tier 2. Even their drops are the easiest to get since most terrans get medivacs anyway to heal units. They just have so many options, while the others races kinda have a cookie cutter type of build they need to do.

 

[ThumperSD]

Does the Lurker have any bonus attacks? They did the same damage to all units in BW. I see them working against low HP, smaller units like marines/lings/workers like banelings but wont be very useful trying to bust in a terran wall. Lurker drop would be pretty fun.

 

[ThumperSD]

I beat a 2600 protoss today and he didnt play at all like a 2600 at all. How do these guys get so high? Im so glad Blizzard is going to reset Bnet.

Oh and the 6 range for Lurker might not be such a bad thing? Z typically owns T in late game by the time they get T3 so Z will already have the advantage.

 

[Deluded]

Oh and the 6 range for Lurker might not be such a bad thing? Z typically owns T in late game by the time they get T3 so Z will already have the advantage.

I don't see it that way. Tanks + thors + banshee + bc + raven + stimmed marines make one hell of an army. Zergs either have to regurgitate their T1-T2.5 units or sacrifice precious time and economy for T3 units that die far too easily.

Plus, I'm annoyed how a single bc (non upgraded) can pwn 7 2/2 hydras.

 

[ThumperSD]

I don't see it that way. Tanks + thors + banshee + bc + raven + stimmed marines make one hell of an army. Zergs either have to regurgitate their T1-T2.5 units or sacrifice precious time and economy for T3 units that die far too easily.

Plus, I'm annoyed how a single bc (non upgraded) can pwn 7 2/2 hydras.

Imagine the zerg's army when the terran has all of that. Zerg should have 4-6 hatcheries full of larvae to respawn too. The thing with terran in late game is their lack of mobility so you can keep them in their base with mutas while you take over the map.

Do you not agree that Z > T in late game? It's not always the case but this usually does favors zerg. Im pretty sure most people would agree.

 

[refraxion]

Z>T late game provided they have map control

 

[petertew]

I beat a 2600 protoss today and he didnt play at all like a 2600 at all. How do these guys get so high? Im so glad Blizzard is going to reset Bnet.

Oh and the 6 range for Lurker might not be such a bad thing? Z typically owns T in late game by the time they get T3 so Z will already have the advantage.

That number beside a name sometimes just means the person has played a LOT of games, not necessarily that they're good. When is Blizzard resetting Bnet?

 

[Decko]

That number beside a name sometimes just means the person has played a LOT of games, not necessarily that they're good. When is Blizzard resetting Bnet?

Yeah I've beaten players with high points and a lot of game, also lost to some with lower points. It doesn't mean much until you get into the 3000 range.

 

[ThumperSD]

That number beside a name sometimes just means the person has played a LOT of games, not necessarily that they're good. When is Blizzard resetting Bnet?

That's very true. He had a 4xx-3xx record so he's had about 800 games played. Points really dont measure skill as well as MMR does.

 

[Stone Cold]

I just beat "Gates of Hell" on brutal, while picking my nose. It's the level where there are ten drop pods to rescue. I rescued them all while watching TV and drinking heavily. At one point, I even visited the boys room, without pausing the game, and I still beat the level. There are several other levels I very easily beat (including all achievements) on Brutal, most of them without doing anything cheesy. Really, the only thing that makes any of the "brutal" levels hard is the speed of the game, which is really an annoyance for someone picking his nose and drinking JD while playing. I don't even consider myself to be a good player. (But, it is my third time through. The first time, I played on normal difficulty and only used one harvester per mineral patch, not knowing any better.)

Yep, reapers are useless. I think bunkers generally useless, too. Terrans have too many harassing units. But, the Protos mothership is a cool bonus for levels that last a long time. For multiplayer, obviously, they got rid of the medics and the round floating things because they made Terrans way too strong.

Well, I'm off to beat All In, against Zerg air units, without mind-control and without the artifact.

 

[petertew]

Yep, reapers are useless. I think bunkers generally useless, too. Terrans have too many harassing units. But, the Protos mothership is a cool bonus for levels that last a long time. For multiplayer, obviously, they got rid of the medics and the round floating things because they made Terrans way too strong.

.....huh?

 

[lobski2]

.....huh?

He means the sci vessels.

 

[Vermillion]

I beat a 2600 protoss today and he didnt play at all like a 2600 at all. How do these guys get so high? Im so glad Blizzard is going to reset Bnet.

Oh and the 6 range for Lurker might not be such a bad thing? Z typically owns T in late game by the time they get T3 so Z will already have the advantage.

Probably used 4gate to get into the 2000's and then realized "oh shit it doesn't work very often anymore". So now he's desperately trying to actually learn the game and since there are so many more like him he can actually win at times.

 

[Stone Cold]

He means the sci vessels.

Yep. In multiplayer, Blizzard forces you to have both air and ground units if you want an army the heals itself. This makes Terran armies much weaker, and Tarrans are probably still too strong.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

Bunkers useless... having medivacs makes Terran waker... My head's spinning.

Probably used 4gate to get into the 2000's and then realized "oh shit it doesn't work very often anymore". So now he's desperately trying to actually learn the game and since there are so many more like him he can actually win at times.

IdrA said in an interview that players on the NA and EU ladders play to gain points while players on the KR ladder play to get better. Just because someone is rated high doesn't mean they're 'better' than a lower rated player. The problem with ladder is that it's largely a 'best of 1' scenario which invites all in tactics or tactics that catch opponents by surprise. You can repeatedly use the same tactic on ladder and gain points if it works at least 50% of the time. This will obviously never work in a tournament scenario. My roommate was the shining example of how to make the top 200 by cannon rushing and proxy gating.

 

[M Bison]

I played through the campaign and then was done with it. I just didn't really felt they added anything new. Sure, there are new units, but that is pretty much it.

 

[petertew]

Bunkers useless... having medivacs makes Terran waker... My head's spinning.

Thank you.

 

[Stone Cold]

Bunkers useless... having medivacs makes Terran waker... My head's spinning.

Did you stand up too fast?

 

[ThumperSD]

I see plenty of cheese on the Korean server

 

[lobski2]

Okay, I am still looking for people who play very often, 1v1 practice or team games. West coast timezone. Anyone else looking for a buddy to league up and practice with in games?

Add me: oblisk#285

Please add me if you play regularly, I am having great difficulties in getting friends to play together regularly and is available most of the day...