Should IT Form a Union?

figgie said:
nope.

Cargill is in process or bring all the outsourced IT jobs back stateside. The cost saved in outsourcing was compounded by the issues people where having talking with "Help desk". Other companies are following suit.
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thats great for cargill but in my world outsourcing is in full steam ahead mode. 2 years ago we were at an 90/10 company employee/contractor ratio. now we are 60/40 with more coming over every month. keep in mind this is just on the IT side. the outsourcing is also being done on the research and manufacturing side as well. would you be comfortable giving your kids a drug or vaccine made in india or china?
 
Dillenger69 said:
I'll say no thank you to a union.
I get paid plenty, my benefits are fine, and I get compensated in time off for overtime.

All a union would do is make sure my time was micro-managed to death and remove any incentive for me to do a little extra now because I know things will be slack later.
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Ditto...

I like things just how they are, no union for me.
 
rhexis said:
thats great for cargill but in my world outsourcing is in full steam ahead mode. 2 years ago we were at an 90/10 company employee/contractor ratio. now we are 60/40 with more coming over every month. keep in mind this is just on the IT side. the outsourcing is also being done on the research and manufacturing side as well. would you be comfortable giving your kids a drug or vaccine made in india or china?
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and your world is? Cargill is one of many examples that are stopping outsourcing from an IT perspective. That is the reason why Dell is cutting back on its "outsourcing" also.

As for drugs. Yes. Can not be any worse than the complete kidney failure due "anesthitics", or heart failure due to drugs for Diabetes.
 
Unions are only good when the people don't abuse it's power. A factory close to where I live had to shut down because the union demanded more money. They were already making $15-$18/hour + full benefits, to make stupid seat tracks for your car seats. I'm sorry, but they are ALREADY getting over paid for the job, then they want more? Guess what, that plant moved to Mexico and most of the people are now making 1/2 of what they were making then. I know this because I know a few people who worked there.

As for the Union where my dad works, when the contract is up, the company offers raises, and the union takes them without demanding more. They are happy for what they have.
 
Unions are an archaic item no longer needed. They had their time and place, but in todays economy and market, they are worthless.

Especially for IT. There is no way I want to be a part of the union where $9 dollar an hour help desk people are in the same union as a 50 grand a year field service guy and a 250 grand a year developer. All are VERY different jobs requiring different skills and hours and expectations.
 
TheBluePill said:
Actually, Even attempting to form a union or talk about it can get you fired at most companies. its an Automatic thing.
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Actually that's illegal in the United States (firing somebody for trying to form/join a union.)

But that doesn't mean that they can't find some other "valid" reason to layoff somebody or make staying with the company so miserable that the person *wants* to leave for somebody that just so happens to be a pro-union activist. Usually large companies tend to refrain from firing somebody outright because of the potential lawsuits.

I'd *LOVE* to work for a large company that stupid enough to automatically fire workers for trying to join/organize a union... I'd be able to retire on the settlement for the lawsuit that I'd file and win. :D
 
bigdogchris said:
Unions are only good when the people don't abuse it's power. A factory close to where I live had to shut down because the union demanded more money. They were already making $15-$18/hour + full benefits, to make stupid seat tracks for your car seats. I'm sorry, but they are ALREADY getting over paid for the job, then they want more? Guess what, that plant moved to Mexico and most of the people are now making 1/2 of what they were making then. I know this because I know a few people who worked there.

As for the Union where my dad works, when the contract is up, the company offers raises, and the union takes them without demanding more. They are happy for what they have.
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Auto worker unions are the truest form of union abuse.

Back when Ford (the man) personally ran Ford (the company) he paid workers much more then the going rate for manual labour. His idea was that the best workers would not only stay there working for him, but would work harder.

Fast forwards to 2008. The unions have shafted the automakers so hard for so long that they simply can't even compete with heavily tarrifed foreign vehicles. I have several friends at a Ford plant that will openly admit that they rarely give more then 50% effort because they know that their employers can't touch them for poor output. They just keep rolling in the dough, far far more then they deserve for manual labour, as their employers are ground into the dust by the unions abusive demands. Now that the automakers are shutting down plants the unions are getting their panties in a wad over workers getting laid off, even though it's their own damn fault.

A good union gets their members that extra .5%/year, that coverage for prescription dispensing fee, not just the prescription, the protection from abusive managers. A bad union either sells out to the company far too easily, or such as is with most autoworker unions, rides the company so hard that they're forced to shut down business and work out of foreign nations because, even with the tarriffs, it's just so much cheaper.
 
figgie said:
Ok my bad, I forgot that I fall under the "highly skilled" category for exemption status. With that said, most "helpdesk" or operation support are not salaried, most are infact hourly. And believe me when I tell you, no one know this more than penny pinching banks.
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"Highly skilled" is very ambiguous. That's where the lawsuits are originiating. All the IT staff except managers were moved to hourly in our large company that is in the business of outsourcing. Even those of us who are the multi-disciplinary "you fix/workaround it or you are out of a job because there is no other place for us to escalate this because the vendor doesn't understand why its broke either" types.

Doesn't mean I don't still pull the occasional 19 hour day. It just means I get the next two days off when I do. And, it doesn't mean our jobs are particularly safe long term as our company is moving to a 65/35 off-shore to on-shore ratio from 55/45.
 
KingPariah777 said:
I don't know...these outsourced workers are making a mockery of the IT field...certifications are now a joke because of Indian cert-factories, and quality is second to quantity.
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Exactly. I would be up for an IT union in a heartbeat. I've been a member of various unions, and they've all been great. And yes, even in today's world, unions are a great asset to have on your side.
 
MrTroy03 said:
Unions are an archaic item no longer needed. They had their time and place, but in todays economy and market, they are worthless.
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You are a very narrow minded individual. The largest unions keep this country running and I'm sure not very many even thought about it, the railroad unions. You think they're archaic and not needed? You've never worked for a Class 1 railroad then.

A union that goes to battle for you against management to keep you employeed when you didn't commit a violation. A union that will keep you with a salary if you do something to get your self time on the street for a violation. A union that will give you the best and nearly incomparable retirement that no other company can come close to matching.
 
nessus said:
Uh, actually, looking at the strict legal definitions most IT staff don't meet federal salary exempt requirements. There is a lawyer in Colorado making quite a bit of bank off that fact filing federal suits on behalf of employees. My company moved IT staff to salary non-exempt over the last 2 years to avoid his attention, and paid those of us who accurately recorded the extra time we worked even when we weren't being compensated for it 2 years of back overtime pay. Cha ching!

Talk about a bunch of ticked off people. All the people who only recorded 40 hrs a week because "It doesn't make any difference" for those previous 2 years were royally PO'd.

Now, because of cost control, we can't work overtime, but I work an actual 40 hr week. Works for me. :)
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California did this a few years ago. We have so many IT workers here they filed a lawsuit and won. We got paid for two years of overtime. It was funny because we asked to estimate how much OT we worked. Hmmm....

We get paid for the work we do. Simple as that. I think they should enact that law US wide. These jackass IT managers need to be reigned in. To the guy who's boss told him about the GPS, I would have told him to shove it up his ass. If I am required to carry a phone/GPS all the time, that is considered on call like a doc and they HAVE to pay you for it. On call differential FTW.

Most of these companies would be screwed if we did a walk out, and like the telco's, they couldn't outsource.
 
SnakeIRye said:
Blaming unions for those industries downfall, especially the auto industry? Try "free-trade."
"American" companies should not be allowed to partially run their business inside of the U.S. while reaping all of the benefits of third world workers. It's borderline treason.
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GM isn't on the verge of bankruptcy because of NAFTA. GM is going down because of the insanely expensive health care policies forced on the company years ago... by unions. For the record, GM is the #1 seller of cars in Asia; more than Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, etc. When it comes to cars, the top status symbol in China is a black Buick.
 
Gamerdad said:
There are many pros and cons to being in a union, but for the most part I like being in one. It's nice to get paid a smidge under 6 figures for a job my buddy at Charter Cable only gets about 30k for lol.
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Union member is paid nearly six figures for the same job that's worth $30K in the real economy.

I rest my case.
 
RedOctober said:
THIS.

I would only add that GOOD IT professionals need no help getting what they want in an employment relationship. Those that can't, shouldn't. People need to realize that THEY control what happens in their working relationship, not anyone else. The minute you decide to give that up by depending on Union to take care of that for you, you become a slave.

I'd like to think that most IT workers know the potential evils of a union enough to stay away.
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Completely agree!
Don't like something/someone get a diff job.
I worked in union shop as mechanic and then went to the competitors. No union was- better pay, better conditions, better..
Working at union shop reminded me Soviet Union- if you do a shitty job, nobody will fire you, so.. why bother? :)
NO UNION.
 
all union ever do is take your money most of the time and do nothing to help the people close to retirement
 
I don't know if anyone has said this already but people need to realize that unions are not one person or a management team. A union is everyone. A properly ran union is ran from the bottom up. Members run the Union. I can only speak for the union that I am in though.
 
Look how well it worked for the Auto industry..

Forming a union would just outsource our work to overseas faster since it will be cheaper and fewer overhead costs.

I'd be one of the dumbest things we could do.. Make seniority matter more than ability (what unions are for)
 
yes, you should, because as soon as you all go on strike i am going to inject massive amounts of porn into your servers
 
I do a much better job negotiating a contract than I've ever seen a union do. People just need to stand up for themselves and say no. I've worked in schools my whole life. All of the best run schools with the highest test scores and best teachers were non-union. There are way too many people who should be fired for incompetence that are teaching our kids because of unions. Its a shame.

My job pays 100% for heath care, my wages have increased 50% over the past 3 years, I get 4 weeks of work free vacation a year, and get a free apartment on campus. I am on call 24/7 but I treat my work cell as a house phone. It stays at home when I go out. Why do I want a union again?

I have to say I am against the idea of IT as a whole being unionized, but not against certain parts. I have seen and hear about all of the shit my friends who code software have to deal with, they have a pretty strong case for organizing.
 
Unions are for the lazy people. What most don't understand is it is easier to fire a union employee than it is to fire a non-union employee, IMHO. I have been both union and non-union in my career and have seem more people "brought back" because the companies HR decided the termination wasn't warranted, not because the union put up a fight.

Now what the IT departments needs is a swift kick in the ass. The walls that have been placed in most corporations by IT is just down right rediculous. Too much "not on my network" instead of how can we make the company better.
 
Ockie said:
Hell no. I hate unions. The only good a union is for in todays age is to expedite outsourcing.
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Unions can be good but generally from my experience they are way too powerful and just lead to issues. Personally I'm glad that I'm not in one.

MrValentine said:
I would join a union in a heart beat!!! My boss is about to turn on GPS tracking for all Network Support Specilists. When I asked if I could now leave the BB at work. nope.

So now my boss is gonna be tracking me durring off hours and I only have his word that he wont.
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Azhar said:
Oh I agree. I get emails on my Blackberry off the clock too, but my boss expects me to document any offhour work I perform and put it on my timesheet at the end of the week. She's awesome like that.

I'm just saying his boss has the right to put a GPS plan on company phones whenever he wants and if you don't like it, get your own phone, thats all.

But of course it gets tricky when it comes to emergencies. If a server goes down and someone's trying to reach you but you're not carrying your company phone, don't expect to have a job tomorrow lol
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First off I would check into the labor laws and how they support you on this. Azhar's boss tells him to put the time on the sheet because she knows they can get sued for not playing employees for the time. Personally if my boss tried that with me I would simply pull the battery from the phone as I left work. I would then give my personal cell number for emergencies. If they didn't have it locked down I'd just forward the business phone to my cell before pulling the battery.
 
TheBluePill said:
Your free to find a new job. I would do so under those circumstances.

I dont think many of you really understand what unions were created for in the first place. I grew up in the coal fields of West Virginia, I have seen first hand how it all works. My great uncle Sid Hatfield faught against the coal companies durring the Matewan massacre, the companies actually hired mercenaries to put down the workers with machine guns! The coal companies took away these people houses, ability to buy food and made them so far in debt that they were indentured servants to the company. That is the condition for a union.

Is your boss pointing a gun at you and putting your family out on the street?
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So you want people to wait until the sitation gets this extreme instead of tackling it before it happens?
 
We need get a voice to protect our IT jobs where we live the cost of living hasn't lowered, but increase. The place/bank I work they just started to outsource to india the whole IT support department. Then in the future the development side as well. Theres going to be a lot of citizen out of work and the jobs in the industry you speicialize in while be evapourating fast.

~kane One voice one purpose
 
Ok guys here is the thing. I was an organized IT worker. We voted the union out and are benefits improved. We also now don't have to pay union dues. Also the thing is that the company only has so much to pay the works. All that happens with or with out the union is they just change how the money is divided up between the different buckets. The total is still the same. If the union costs the company too much, they will out source. The best thing you can do as a worker or an IT organization is deliver. This has been my experience working 23 years for a large corporation. Your millage may very :) P.S. I now work for a virtual organization, my boss now has people in three different cities and we support people everywhere. And we are happy :)
 
MrTroy03 said:
Unions are an archaic item no longer needed. They had their time and place, but in todays economy and market, they are worthless.

Especially for IT. There is no way I want to be a part of the union where $9 dollar an hour help desk people are in the same union as a 50 grand a year field service guy and a 250 grand a year developer. All are VERY different jobs requiring different skills and hours and expectations.
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Sounds like the difference between a plumber's union, a carpenter's union, an insulator's union, an electrician's union....etc. Teamsters (bad example) make different salaries for different jobs. An IT union "could" do the same.
 
You're damn right it's time to form a union.

This outsourcing stuff has ruined my whole life.
I hate it. I hate these outsourcing bastards, and I hate having to work as a contractor.
 
I would never ever be a part of a union. All they do in this day and age is make american businesses uncompetative in the global market. I have a sweet job that pays well and I love what I do so I don't mind the hours I work. I work more than I need to an my boss is always telling me to work less.
 
TBH I don't care about my hours, who I have to work with, or what I have to deal with (as long as I don't have to do CRT monitor moves for half of what I usually make, in a room that's 105 degrees with no AC)

But I get laid off about five times a year, and get ripped off at every other job.

I'm sick of this TBH, outsourcing has ruined my work life.

Every time I think I have a great thing going...and I'm loyal to the people I work for on top of it...I get laid off, "We've decided to outsource the desktop support team."

...great, out of a job again.
I have to get work as a contractor things are so bad, and those jobs only last a couple days, couple weeks, or couple months at the most.

It's been union time.
Those of you that have jobs, definitely don't need a union, but in certain areas, all the support IT jobs have been outsourced.

Every time I really think I've made it, about to get benefits, about to be able to support my family..."We've decided to outsource the desktop support team."

Working as a contractor, I meet tons of other IT workers who have the exact same stories I do.
It's not working.

I hate where I live because I can't get a job, and I don't want to learn another language so I can move to Russia or France to finally get a good job.

We need a union.
 
Joining a union will not solve outsourcing problems ... if anything it will exacerbate the situation.
 
QHalo said:
You are a very narrow minded individual. The largest unions keep this country running and I'm sure not very many even thought about it, the railroad unions. You think they're archaic and not needed? You've never worked for a Class 1 railroad then.

A union that goes to battle for you against management to keep you employeed when you didn't commit a violation. A union that will keep you with a salary if you do something to get your self time on the street for a violation. A union that will give you the best and nearly incomparable retirement that no other company can come close to matching.
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Why would you want to work for a company that treats all workers exactly the same, no matter how hard they work? What about one that promotes only on the basis of seniority and not merit? Unions are killing employers.
 
Mr. Wolf said:
Union member is paid nearly six figures for the same job that's worth $30K in the real economy.

I rest my case.
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Yup, and they continue to until it is possible to lay off the entire union simultaneously and outsource the entire group, at which point these people will bitch at their union for not protection their "right" to get paid 6 figures for menial labour.
 
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