Should IT Form a Union?

TheBluePill said:
No.. Free market works best here.
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Not always. When all or most employers

TheBluePill said:
Your free to find a new job. I would do so under those circumstances.
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RedOctober said:
THIS.

I would only add that GOOD IT professionals need no help getting what they want in an employment relationship. Those that can't, shouldn't. People need to realize that THEY control what happens in their working relationship, not anyone else. The minute you decide to give that up by depending on Union to take care of that for you, you become a slave.

I'd like to think that most IT workers know the potential evils of a union enough to stay away.
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I agree about not needing or wanting a union, however, I agree with the article that something needs to be done. It's great to say "just find another job if you don't like the one you have", but when most employers are treating IT workers the same way, leaving isn't always an option. To me, after having been in this industry for the last 15 years, things just seem to be getting worse and worse. Longer hours with no increase in pay or OT, more work (due to attrition), more work sent overseas and more being treated like a typical cube dweller productivity puke... :rolleyes:
 
In the past unions were a good thing, back when there were no benefits, etc. Now they are just a way for lazy people to climb up the corporate ladder (seniority) and keep a job they would normally get fired from.
 
RedOctober said:
THIS.

I would only add that GOOD IT professionals need no help getting what they want in an employment relationship. Those that can't, shouldn't. People need to realize that THEY control what happens in their working relationship, not anyone else. The minute you decide to give that up by depending on Union to take care of that for you, you become a slave.

I'd like to think that most IT workers know the potential evils of a union enough to stay away.
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That's true, unions have a lot of bad tradeoffs, including hurting your ability to negotiate with your employer.

I don't think we need unions, but we do need powerful representation to get MUCH better job-protection legislation. What they have now is lax, undermined and easy to circumvent. Twice now I've trained my H1B replacements.
 
RedOctober said:
THIS.

I would only add that GOOD IT professionals need no help getting what they want in an employment relationship. Those that can't, shouldn't. People need to realize that THEY control what happens in their working relationship, not anyone else. The minute you decide to give that up by depending on Union to take care of that for you, you become a slave.

I'd like to think that most IT workers know the potential evils of a union enough to stay away.
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QFT
 
The anti-union comments have no idea what they are talking about. If you think you can trust corporate America to treat you fairly just because you know IT, get a clue! The 40 hour week, equal pay regardless of race or religion, safe workplaces are all due to Union efforts. This must be the same bunch that thinks they got a tax cut under Bush.
My Union out of my dues, not employer sponsored can provide me with one year of disability pay at 2/3 of my salary.
Good luck to anyone that hates Unions when it is your turn you will be alone.
 
RedOctober said:
THIS.

I would only add that GOOD IT professionals need no help getting what they want in an employment relationship. Those that can't, shouldn't. People need to realize that THEY control what happens in their working relationship, not anyone else. The minute you decide to give that up by depending on Union to take care of that for you, you become a slave.

I'd like to think that most IT workers know the potential evils of a union enough to stay away.
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Correct

I have been doing IT for 14 years now. The problems start early in the person's career. The "Yes syndrome". I see it still with new people that say yes to EVERYTHING.

Work the weekend, YES
Work Christmas, YES
Need you to stay after work, YES
Work from home sick, YES
Can we call you while you are on Vacation, YES.

I learned very early in my career to say NO. But of course not that landishly. More of a decline request :) That way, they can ask you but if you say no, they are not surprised that you said no.

As for Unions. I can and have taken care of myself on all accounts. A union will only get in my way and the way I see it, the person/s that are running the union are getting my union fee's for what exactly? For them to sit on thier tush and basically say when to go on strike. Sorry I don't play that game. I work for me.
 
I don't need a union telling me what I can and cannot do in the name of protecting me. I do what it takes to get the job done.

I worked in a place where there was a union once. This particular employeer had the habit of not paying for the first week. They would then pay the employee cash which would increase their productivity numbers for salary vs. output.

The short version is they waited past the first pay period to pay me my first week. During this time I was encouraged by the steward to join the union and stick it to them. Instead, I prepared to contact the Texas Workforce Commission. When I was finally paid cash, the manager asked if I was intending to contact the union about my lack of pay. I said, "No, I don't believe in Unions. I was going to contact the TWC if I had not been paid by the end of the week." He went from looking mildly concerned to terrified instantly. He realized that I knew where the power was and seemed relieved when I resigned a few weeks later.

I don't play union games. If the problem is that bad, I find another job, or I smack em down with the law.
 
narsbars said:
The anti-union comments have no idea what they are talking about. If you think you can trust corporate America to treat you fairly just because you know IT, get a clue! The 40 hour week, equal pay regardless of race or religion, safe workplaces are all due to Union efforts. This must be the same bunch that thinks they got a tax cut under Bush.
My Union out of my dues, not employer sponsored can provide me with one year of disability pay at 2/3 of my salary.
Good luck to anyone that hates Unions when it is your turn you will be alone.
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Has nothing to do with "hate".

The 40 hour work week is all good except for exempt employees. Care to take ONE guess where IT lands in? ;)

Funny thing though and as noted in my above post. I work exactly 40 hours week and sometimes even less (32 hours). Every job I have taken, I wipe the on-call from MY responsibilities as I don't do that anymore.


If I feel like doing something else beside my job function, I ask my boss and they accomodate me. Fielding telephone calls, Off my plate. Support tasks, Not ME! 1 week vacation, I always shoot for 3 weeks minimum, 4 weeks on average, that is just vacation. Another 1 week sick time. The issue is that the prospective employees take what is given to them. Most do not negotiate. Severance packages etc. All that is done PRIOR to accepting the job. Once you accepted the job, that option disappears.

Corporations have no loyalty but then again, niether do I. At the same time it is a mutally BENEFICIAL state for both while I am working for them. I do what they need, and they pay me handsomely for that knowledge transfer.
 
Azhar said:
Oh I agree. I get emails on my Blackberry off the clock too, but my boss expects me to document any offhour work I perform and put it on my timesheet at the end of the week. She's awesome like that.

I'm just saying his boss has the right to put a GPS plan on company phones whenever he wants and if you don't like it, get your own phone, that's all.

But of course it gets tricky when it comes to emergencies. If a server goes down and someone's trying to reach you but you're not carrying your company phone, don't expect to have a job tomorrow lol
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You could go find something along the lines of this...

http://www.chinavasion.com/product_info.php/pName/tiny-anti-tracker-gps-blocker-in-car-use/

Sounds like it will let you use your phone while stopping the GPS from tracking you. so you don't miss an important call and your crazy boss just has to deal with the fact that the GPS in your phone doesn't work very well. :)
 
Rather than a union what if they just had an IT worker appreciation day where every IT person in the US took the day off. I think they might get the point real quick that they better start treating their IT guys better.
 
I will take a union. They seem to help the jobs in my state.

I have never seen an overseas in-house IT staff either. Unions won't let you negotiate, they will do it for you. Unions will probably drive jobs to be outsourced though to non union companies (which you are free to work for). Negotiating isn't something every market can do right now. With a 500:1 application/job ratio, is an employee who is experienced in the field able to try to negotiate? Not likely at least in my nichemark. I live in a "Right to work" state, and the businesses out here like to give you the threat that everyone, including you, are expendable. However, the stupid people don't get fired. They get promoted out of their jobs, into something requiring less knowledge.

Did I mention that we went on a hiring freeze, lost 1/2 of our staff, and receive no merit based incentive?

I tried looking for more work in my field. Actually got a comparable job. Unfortunately, they went on a hiring freeze too, which stopped me from working there too. With the economy suffering out here as bad as it is, finding a job that is tailored to meet the needs of you or your family's needs isn't what I would call a snap.
 
SelousSizzle said:
Rather than a union what if they just had an IT worker appreciation day where every IT person in the US took the day off. I think they might get the point real quick that they better start treating their IT guys better.
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lol they won't.

They would replace 1 experience IT worker with 10 fresh out of college IT workers in a heart beat. They would replace us with monkeys if the monkeys could do the job (thankfully, evolution has not come that far) for bananas instead of money.

btw the reason they won't. Because IT is not a money maker for ANY company. We are a blackhole of money, at least when you ask the accountants thier opinion of IT ;)
 
bmartin said:
With a 500:1 application/job ratio, is an employee who is experienced in the field able to try to negotiate?
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It ALL depends on how you sell yourself. I negotiate even during hard times. It is no different than the car salesman selling a person that brand new car, the realtor pitching that nice new house.

bmartin said:
Not likely at least in my nichemark. I live in a "Right to work" state, and the businesses out here like to give you the threat that everyone, including you, are expendable. However, the stupid people don't get fired. They get promoted out of their jobs, into something requiring less knowledge.
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Ahh the good ole, we can "CAN" you belief. BTW you are talking about At-WILL employment (Not right to work ;) ). This street is a two way street ;)

Funny thing, I have quit, on the spot, before the word expandable came out of their mouth. On different occasion, I made it known that if they ever "dabble my job as a carrot". I would quit without 2 weeks. Funny what you can do when take a stance on issues against management ;)


bmartin said:
Did I mention that we went on a hiring freeze, lost 1/2 of our staff, and receive no merit based incentive?

I tried looking for more work in my field. Actually got a comparable job. Unfortunately, they went on a hiring freeze too, which stopped me from working there too. With the economy suffering out here as bad as it is, finding a job that is tailored to meet the needs of you or your family's needs isn't what I would call a snap.
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That is everywhere but at the same time. Everyone is marketable. It is just how you sell yourself. For instance. even in this dire economy. In June I landed a job that paid me nearly 50% more than I used to earn. Still at it today!
 
I agree with most of the comments about not needing unions. Though unions do have their uses on certain industries just not this one. Now, I do agree that something does need to be done. I do like the idea in the article of a professional organization like the BAR or the AMA. I see that as a much better alternative than a union. Sure we have the ACM or the IEEE but it would nice to see something on a more national level. Pardon ignorance but could IT here in the States fight outsourcing by doing something like requiring a "license" such as accountants having CPA's or lawyers with the BAR?
 
figgie said:
The 40 hour work week is all good except for exempt employees. Care to take ONE guess where IT lands in? ;)
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Uh, actually, looking at the strict legal definitions most IT staff don't meet federal salary exempt requirements. There is a lawyer in Colorado making quite a bit of bank off that fact filing federal suits on behalf of employees. My company moved IT staff to salary non-exempt over the last 2 years to avoid his attention, and paid those of us who accurately recorded the extra time we worked even when we weren't being compensated for it 2 years of back overtime pay. Cha ching!

Talk about a bunch of ticked off people. All the people who only recorded 40 hrs a week because "It doesn't make any difference" for those previous 2 years were royally PO'd.

Now, because of cost control, we can't work overtime, but I work an actual 40 hr week. Works for me. :)
 
nessus said:
Uh, actually, looking at the strict legal definitions most IT staff don't meet federal salary exempt requirements. There is a lawyer in Colorado making quite a bit of bank off that fact filing federal suits on behalf of employees. My company moved IT staff to salary non-exempt over the last 2 years to avoid his attention, and paid those of us who accurately recorded the extra time we worked even when we weren't being compensated for it 2 years of back overtime pay. Cha ching!

Talk about a bunch of ticked off people. All the people who only recorded 40 hrs a week because "It doesn't make any difference" for those previous 2 years were royally PO'd.

Now, because of cost control, we can't work overtime, but I work an actual 40 hr week. Works for me. :)
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Ok my bad, I forgot that I fall under the "highly skilled" category for exemption status. With that said, most "helpdesk" or operation support are not salaried, most are infact hourly. And believe me when I tell you, no one know this more than penny pinching banks.
 
i include the manufacturing segment; the pcb and end-user machine assemblers within the sphere of what we call the 'it industry.' they are the ones who need the most protection.
 
i say no. the one thing unions garuntee to do is increase the cost of labor. now before i get flamed im not saying they dont do good but in the IT field where you get alot of outsourcing i believe it would just increase the outsourcing do to cost.

The bottom line is you, as an american it worker, you have to do a better job, a job that makes the additional cost worth it. Everyone who's talked about management is damn right. And maybie there is a way to do it were it wont drive up the cost. But be damn careful. Or you will union yourself out of a job.
 
figgie said:
It ALL depends on how you sell yourself. I negotiate even during hard times. It is no different than the car salesman selling a person that brand new car, the realtor pitching that nice new house.
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Except when you walk away from a car salesman or realtor, your family can still eat.

figgie said:
Ahh the good ole, we can "CAN" you belief. BTW you are talking about At-WILL employment (Not right to work ;) ). This street is a two way street ;)


Funny thing, I have quit, on the spot, before the word expandable came out of their mouth. On different occasion, I made it known that if they ever "dabble my job as a carrot". I would quit without 2 weeks. Funny what you can do when take a stance on issues against management ;)
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Quitting isn't everyone's option. Did the company call and beg you to come back? Did the next guy receive fair treatment? It did nothing but take your job from you. You chose to leave it in a love it or leave it market. Fact of the matter is, 99.9999999% of us work for the check. Quitting without two weeks notice is a nice way of saying "omit this job from my list of references". It also screams "no money coming in, even from unemployment, because I shot myself in the foot for freedom".





figgie said:
That is everywhere but at the same time. Everyone is marketable. It is just how you sell yourself. For instance. even in this dire economy. In June I landed a job that paid me nearly 50% more than I used to earn. Still at it today!
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So am I, same situation, since December. That job happens to be the one I am speaking of. How do you sell yourself to a closed door? EVERYONE out here is on a freeze in IT. (Excluding companies that are looking for CFOs, and the cheap $15/hour labor)

You do have good points if we generalize every job as the same, but my personal situation doesn't seem to fit any of those debates it seems.
 
bmartin said:
Quitting isn't everyone's option. Did the company call and beg you to come back? Did the next guy receive fair treatment? It did nothing but take your job from you. You chose to leave it in a love it or leave it market. Fact of the matter is, 99.9999999% of us work for the check. Quitting without two weeks notice is a nice way of saying "omit this job from my list of references". It also screams "no money coming in, even from unemployment, because I shot myself in the foot for freedom".
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No one says you have to be "stupid" about it. (no Offense to you personally). If you are un-happy with your job, be "smart" about quitting and finding another job. There are few exceptions where you have to immediatly quit, unless it is a safety issue or a gross offence like sexual harrasement.

You can negotiate, within your situation to some extent. if you cant reach something agreeable, then you can find other employment, generally.

If you feel "stuck" you may need a year or two to get a better plan together and take action.

This is for IT or any other job.
 
Auto industry
Steel industry
Airline industry

All heavily unionized
All once dominated by U.S. companies
All have failed

Every major American industry that's gone union has been destroyed by unions (they've now set their sights on Wal-Mart). If you want to ruin our IT industry, welcome unions into the fold.

Anyone who intends to criticize my comments as uninformed and/or outright lies, know this: I was a labor relations negotiator with the country's number one package delivery company for 4 years. This is no longer 1920. I've seen first-hand the intimidation and corruption unions wreak on American companies. If unions sink their fangs into our IT industry, kiss our economy goodbye.
 
I'll say no thank you to a union.
I get paid plenty, my benefits are fine, and I get compensated in time off for overtime.

All a union would do is make sure my time was micro-managed to death and remove any incentive for me to do a little extra now because I know things will be slack later.
 
I've been in CWA for about 12 years working for a major telco, except for one year in between when i chose to go to management and quickly came back to my senses. It was primarily a telecom job, but it has quickly become an IT job.There are many pros and cons to being in a union, but for the most part I like being in one. It's nice to get paid a smidge under 6 figures for a job my buddy at Charter Cable only gets about 30k for lol. Anyway, the fact that I live in Texas and it being a Right to Work State lets me choose if I do or don't want to be a part of it anymore. That wasn't the case when I lived in California. The one thing that sucks is everyone gets paid the same regardless of education or job performance. This usually means you get a bunch of lazies who hardly do a thing and they ended up bringing home what you do.
 
We would do well to pay attention to many of the other comments made in this thread. You have the ability to change jobs. No one is forcing you to stay.

A union is just quick way to make sure mediocrity rules the day and that even the most incompetent IT person (I have met several in the last 9 months) get to keep their jobs. It will also speed up outsourcing since a company would be forced to give a script reader the same wage as a legitimate PC tech.

There is a reason that the American auto industry is failing and a chunk of that gets handed to the unions.

IT people are an independent lot and most would prefer to fight there own battles. I know I do.

Dan...
 
bmartin said:
Quitting isn't everyone's option. Did the company call and beg you to come back? Did the next guy receive fair treatment? It did nothing but take your job from you. You chose to leave it in a love it or leave it market. Fact of the matter is, 99.9999999% of us work for the check. Quitting without two weeks notice is a nice way of saying "omit this job from my list of references". It also screams "no money coming in, even from unemployment, because I shot myself in the foot for freedom".
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Quitting is a choice. You either choose to quit or not. The reasons behind quitting make the choice easy or not. In the end, it is a choice.

They did infact call me back but like I said, I don't play games. At-Will employment is a two way street. As for the next guy, they actually backed of the carrot dangling and started to give the guys that worked at night a "do not come into office" pass. As for job from me. Again. I am not only well versed in IT, I know Mechanics, handyman, electronics, avionics, accounting, and a slew of other "talents". If push come to shove, the farmer here pay a nice sum for farm work over the summer and Mcdonals is ALWAYS HIRING.


and we get to the crux of the problem. If I wanted to, I could quit working for 1 entire year without no issues. Everyone eats and I am not one check away from "drowning financially". I have omitted jobs from my resume before. Again, it is all in the presentation. And as for closed door. In IT. Nope. Perhaps not what you are looking for but opportunities exist in IT ALL the time. Even in a downturn economy such as now.

list of reference. Only some people that I TRUST go on my reference. No trust, no reference from them. Now as for the "shot myself in the foot". Again, in this industry you don't survive 4 years much less 14 years "shooting yourself" in the foot. The industry for all the money and how spread out it is, is TINY. Word travels fast among upper managements throughout the industry, be it local or global. I should know as my work ethics has helped in landing jobs by itself. The resume was the icing on the cake.

bmartin said:
EVERYONE out here is on a freeze in IT. (Excluding companies that are looking for CFOs, and the cheap $15/hour labor)
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Where is here? =)
 
TheBluePill said:
No one says you have to be "stupid" about it. (no Offense to you personally). If you are un-happy with your job, be "smart" about quitting and finding another job. There are few exceptions where you have to immediatly quit, unless it is a safety issue or a gross offence like sexual harrasement.

You can negotiate, within your situation to some extent. if you cant reach something agreeable, then you can find other employment, generally.

If you feel "stuck" you may need a year or two to get a better plan together and take action.

This is for IT or any other job.
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Correct. No stupidity. The quiting on the spot might be considered short sighted by some, but it is actually well planned on my part :)
 
Gamerdad said:
I've been in CWA for about 12 years working for a major telco, except for one year in between when i chose to go to management and quickly came back to my senses. It was primarily a telecom job, but it has quickly become an IT job.There are many pros and cons to being in a union, but for the most part I like being in one. It's nice to get paid a smidge under 6 figures for a job my buddy at Charter Cable only gets about 30k for lol. Anyway, the fact that I live in Texas and it being a Right to Work State lets me choose if I do or don't want to be a part of it anymore. That wasn't the case when I lived in California. The one thing that sucks is everyone gets paid the same regardless of education or job performance. This usually means you get a bunch of lazies who hardly do a thing and they ended up bringing home what you do.
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Thats the problem. there are a lot of people that Arent worth "near 6 figures" and the companies are forced to pay it.
 
RemoW said:
We would do well to pay attention to many of the other comments made in this thread. You have the ability to change jobs. No one is forcing you to stay.

A union is just quick way to make sure mediocrity rules the day and that even the most incompetent IT person (I have met several in the last 9 months) get to keep their jobs. It will also speed up outsourcing since a company would be forced to give a script reader the same wage as a legitimate PC tech.

There is a reason that the American auto industry is failing and a chunk of that gets handed to the unions.

IT people are an independent lot and most would prefer to fight there own battles. I know I do.

Dan...
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The big problem out there is that these companies don't know the difference between what you call a "script reader" and a "legitimate PC tech".
 
KingPariah777 said:
The big problem out there is that these companies don't know the difference between what you call a "script reader" and a "legitimate PC tech".
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Ummm I beg to differ. Lots of companies that depends on IT (I am talking like Target's, Best Buys etc) know a bs'r when they see the resume. No need to even talk to them. They had to as the whole MCSE ordeal forced them to weed out the "non-hackers" from the legit folks like me.
 
in a few years most if not all technology services will be outsourced either off shore or the workers will be brought here from india. if you doubt this come on over to where i work and take a look around.
 
btw to add to my Post #72 (no editting here i guess??)

I survived in this industry when the "MSCE" was the rage. I got jobs when they were asking for extraordinary requirements (Development, infrastructure, and maangement roled into one) or silly experience time (15+ years).

Up to this day. I do not have an MCSE. Just a lowly MCP from back in 2001 that I don't know what good that does if anything. I guess I am an exception (I seem to be an exception in lots of things I do).
 
rhexis said:
in a few years most if not all technology services will be outsourced either off shore or the workers will be brought here from india. if you doubt this come on over to where i work and take a look around.
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nope.

Cargill is in process or bring all the outsourced IT jobs back stateside. The cost saved in outsourcing was compounded by the issues people where having talking with "Help desk". Other companies are following suit.

But you eluded to something that is in fact taking place in the IT world. Before the tech person got the jobs. That is changing. The job is changing (as all IT does). The job is entailing more communication and social skills than ever before. The schmoozing, the courting of clients is starting to land in IT hands more and more.

For instance. Now a days, when I do a presentation. I have to take into account, who is my audience, what is the message that I am trying to deliver. The who is my audience dictates what the presentation will be.

Tech heavy, or a "10,000 foot overview" of what this "thing" or shiney new software does to help save the company Time/Money/Personel. Most tech folks are not ready or willing to learn that trait. The days of tech geek are almost at the end. The well rounded, to include technolgoy, speech, presentation worker is what is coming to the forefront.
 
as someone who lives in a city that is run into the ground by unions for everything I have very mixed feelings on the idea of unions.

An IT union on paper would be helpful, but only if it is run by people who have been in the IT line of fire. Elsewise it's the same thing we run into now.

What I see being the problem is what a lot of people who oppose see, It would just expedite outsourcing and still not correct the fundamental issues of wages that are driven below fair compensation for our skills and an utter lack of knowledge among high ups who have no idea what actually goes on or what you do.

I think more than unions education is the key, well again that would work on paper but most people just don't care. I don't think results will be seen until infrastructure starts breaking and the outsourced people are unable to do tasks at hand.

Basically the industry needs to start grinding to a halt before anything changes. With the current plan it's going to happen sooner or later.

So...yeah i would love a union if they actually protected us for the better. However from experience i've seen both sides and there are times that you don't get protected...just screwed harder.
 
Mr. Wolf said:
Auto industry
Steel industry
Airline industry

All heavily unionized
All once dominated by U.S. companies
All have failed

Every major American industry that's gone union has been destroyed by unions (they've now set their sights on Wal-Mart). If you want to ruin our IT industry, welcome unions into the fold.

Anyone who intends to criticize my comments as uninformed and/or outright lies, know this: I was a labor relations negotiator with the country's number one package delivery company for 4 years. This is no longer 1920. I've seen first-hand the intimidation and corruption unions wreak on American companies. If unions sink their fangs into our IT industry, kiss our economy goodbye.
Click to expand...

Blaming unions for those industries downfall, especially the auto industry? Try "free-trade."
"American" companies should not be allowed to partially run their business inside of the U.S. while reaping all of the benefits of third world workers. It's borderline treason.
 
Mr. Wolf said:
Auto industry
Steel industry
Airline industry

All heavily unionized
All once dominated by U.S. companies
All have failed

Every major American industry that's gone union has been destroyed by unions (they've now set their sights on Wal-Mart). If you want to ruin our IT industry, welcome unions into the fold.

Anyone who intends to criticize my comments as uninformed and/or outright lies, know this: I was a labor relations negotiator with the country's number one package delivery company for 4 years. This is no longer 1920. I've seen first-hand the intimidation and corruption unions wreak on American companies. If unions sink their fangs into our IT industry, kiss our economy goodbye.
Click to expand...

A Free Market system is the only way to go.

I have busted my ass to learn as much as I can and get where I am today. In three years I have nearly doubled my salary simply by making myself indispensible to my company and I've done it without saying "Yes" to everything.

You pay someone what it takes to keep them, no more. Why should your employer give you more money when they can simply hire someone else? If you aren't happy where you are go out and find something else. Once you have that job, play the two off of one another and see who is willing to pay the most to keep you. It's a free market baby. Play the game and get as much as you can. That is how shit works.
 
SnakeIRye said:
Blaming unions for those industries downfall, especially the auto industry? Try "free-trade."
"American" companies should not be allowed to partially run their business inside of the U.S. while reaping all of the benefits of third world workers. It's borderline treason.
Click to expand...

Globalization's a bitch. Better get used to it. Or you can just continue to complain and do nothing about it.
 
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