SFF Build for Wife

VanGoghComplex

VanGoghComplex

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Apr 5, 2016
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Hey guys! Posting to get some ideas for a new SFF build for my wife. Her Mac Mini is getting dated and it wasn't a powerhouse to begin with. I'm comfortable with building PCs, I just don't know the SFF market or considerations very well. Thanks for your time!

1. What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming, Photoshop (or other intensive programs), Web browsing, strictly HTPC/Playback, etc.

My wife is an artist, and paints digitally using a tablet. She primarily uses Photoshop, and Corel Painter (I think), and tends to have roughly a billion tabs open for references/etc. She doesn't game on her computer, but I'd like it to be an option for her, so I'm thinking a GPU along the lines of a 1050/1060.

2. Will you be overclocking? (If so, are you looking to watercool?)

I'm not going to overclock it, but I am looking to watercool it for the sake of silence. I'm figuring the rule of thumb minimum of two 120mm rads for CPU + GPU. I may not be watercooling the GPU initially, depending on block availability.

3. What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included in this budget? Is your budget flexible? Is cost a driving factor in component selection?

Budget isn't a huge concern, but I do want to be cost efficient. Eg: no overclocking, no need for K-sku or Z270 chipset, for instance.

4. Where do you live? Do you have any big B&M (brick and mortar) computer chains nearby (e.g. Microcenter, Fry's, etc)?

I don't have retail access to... almost anything, really. Biggest city in Kansas is still a city in Kansas, I guess. XD

5. What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need (especially if you will need 3.5" hard drives or expansion cards as these may restrict case options).

CPU, RAM, case, motherboard (mini-ITX), one 2.5" and one M.2 SSD, GPU (might just use a 750ti I've got lying around at first), PSU, DDC water pump, reservoir (5.25" bay type is possible) For now, I don't plan on any 3.5" drives, but room for one would be nice if she needs it.

6. If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. For reused parts, list brands, model #s, and, if applicable, firmware revisions.

Got a 750ti, the Gigabyte low-profile version, and a load of hardline fittings. Most everything else will be new.

7. What specific features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Thunderbolt? Crossfire or SLI support? How many USB 3.0 and SATA 6Gb/s? etc. Which is more important, size of the system or having the particular feature? Make sure you indicate *required* vs. *wanted* for each feature you list.

The primary considerations are size (small) and silence. This is going to be replacing a Mac Mini, so it will almost certainly beat the snot out of what she's got performance-wise.

8. What resolution output do you need? 4k playback, 1080p playback, etc for HTPC or give a vertical/horizontal resolution for gaming SFF rigs. Do you need multiple monitor output?

2 monitors at 1080p.

9. Does this system need to fit into a particular space and do you need an optical drive? Think entertainment center shelves, closet space, rackmount, etc. Many modern SFF cases have either removed the optical drive or have been constructed so that removing the ODD increases the configuration possibilities immensely.

No ODD necessary; we'll use an external when it's needed. As for space, she's got a small corner desk. This won't compete with the sandwich-esque dimensions of her Mini, so as small as we can get it would be ideal.

10. How comfortable are you with custom case design/modification and electrical wiring? What tools do you have (Screwdrivers/Leatherman, Drill, Dremel, Metal snips, Soldering Iron, Bending Brake, CNC/Welding machines/Plasma cutter, etc...)?

I'm a DIY hobbyist and electrical engineer by trade. Comfortable with soldering and sheet metal work.

11. How important is the noise/silence of this sytem? HTPCs typically want to be quiet while all-out SFF gaming rigs don't care ;)

I want it quiet. Her Mac Mini is awful with it's little blower fan.

12. How mobile does this system need to be? Need a carrying handle or carrying straps? Is weight important (carry-on bag, etc)? Water cooling quick disconnects, etc?

Mobility is not a huge concern.

13. Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit? Remember that OEM copies of Win7 have issues with new motherboards :eek:

Nope, will be buying a new copy of Win10 home.

14. When do you plan on building/buying the PC? Immediately, in a couple weeks, 3-5 years? :p

Over the next few months. I'd like to give it to her for her birthday in October.
 
I would go for a silverstone SG13 case. It can watercool and even comes in pink if that's her thing.
I maxed out the memory cuz photoshops and tabs use a lot of them. Plus if you want to increase them in the future you have to sell the 2x 8g

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
CPU: Intel - Core i5-7500 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor ($188.21 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Gigabyte - GA-B250N-Phoenix WIFI Mini ITX LGA1151 Motherboard ($124.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($222.88 @ OutletPC)
Storage: Samsung - 960 EVO 250GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive ($127.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate - Constellation.2 1TB 2.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($55.00 @ Amazon)
Video Card: MSI - GeForce GTX 1050 Ti 4GB GAMING X 4G Video Card ($158.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: Silverstone - SG05BB-450-USB3.0 (Black) Mini ITX Desktop Case w/450W Power Supply ($123.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Pro OEM 64-bit ($132.89 @ OutletPC)
Total: $1134.94 Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-06-20 14:54 EDT-0400

Like I said, you can watercool the case - no reservoir though. But watercool means no 3.5 drive recommended. Also ODD means no 2.5 drive.
It's a small case (12l), so ther's gotta be compromises. But coming from a Mac Mini, she would not want a big-ass case.
 
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jjsyht said:
I would go for a silverstone SG13 case. It can watercool and even comes in pink if that's her thing.
I maxed out the memory cuz photoshops and tabs use a lot of them. Plus if you want to increase them in the future you have to sell the 2x 8g

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
CPU: Intel - Core i5-7500 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor ($188.21 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Gigabyte - GA-B250N-Phoenix WIFI Mini ITX LGA1151 Motherboard ($124.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($222.88 @ OutletPC)
Storage: Samsung - 960 EVO 250GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive ($127.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate - Constellation.2 1TB 2.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($55.00 @ Amazon)
Video Card: MSI - GeForce GTX 1050 Ti 4GB GAMING X 4G Video Card ($158.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: Silverstone - SG05BB-450-USB3.0 (Black) Mini ITX Desktop Case w/450W Power Supply ($123.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Pro OEM 64-bit ($132.89 @ OutletPC)
Total: $1134.94 Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-06-20 14:54 EDT-0400

Like I said, you can watercool the case - no reservoir though. But watercool means no 3.5 drive recommended. Also ODD means no 2.5 drive.
It's a small case (12l), so ther's gotta be compromises. But coming from a Mac Mini, she would not want a big-ass case.
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Cheers! I'd seen that one while browsing. I like that it comes with an included power supply. I'll look into it a bit more.
 
ceski said:
Does it have to be watercooled? How about a fully passive build?
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That looks amazing! Unfortunately, it's beyond my skill level and I don't think I can fathom a passively cooled case as small as I'm wanting to build.

I'm also fairly familiar with watercooling already, so that's the way I wanna go. Thanks for sharing that awesome build though. =)
 
Ncase M1 - my partpicker is here

But really, this thread is all you need.

There is the Dan A4, but it's harder to purchase and water cooling is limited.
 
So, I have a question for you, and three suggestions.

First, the question:

1) Watercooling your wife's computer means that you're going to have to remember to drain the loop, take it apart, clean it, and assemble it again... Preferably while your wife is out of town and doesn't have to deal with her computer being down.

You sure you want to deal with that? ;)
(You can easily put together a SFF build that uses nothing but 140mm noctua fans and is completely silent, if you want.)

Now, the suggestions:

2) If you do want to go down the hardline route, there's pretty much one option for the pump for silence - the switftech PWM d5 variant. It's a great pump and crazy quiet.

3) I've got a 750ti in my server/htpc and it's more than enough to handle light gaming; rocket league, stepmania, emulation, stuff like that. If you've got it, might as well use it and save the money towards a real upgrade if she ever decides she wants to get into it more seriously.

4) I would also recommend getting a case that has a side panel window and a couple LEDs and perhaps some (good quality) dye. As an artist, she'll probably appreciate having a pretty computer what's close to being art itself.

What sort of size restrictions are you looking at here? I would strongly recommend the Caselabs Bullet BH2 - it's a gorgeous case, has room for large enough fans to be quiet, and is going to be a LOT nicer to build a custom loop in than something smaller.
 
What about a Ryzen 1600 since ita photoshop and such?

Also, I kinda agree with darksable. Air cool it. Water cool turns into maintenance in my opinion. A good air cooler will need nothing but blown out every now and then.
 
To folks suggesting air: I definitely get it, but I don't really have much interest in building air-cooled computers anymore. I caught the WC bug hard. The maintenance schedule is not something that bothers me either; I'll likely be doing software maintenance for her on a regular basis too. She'll be moving from Apple to Microsoft.

As for silent pumps, I'm very happy with my Alphacool DDC310, so I'll probably buy one for hers.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
That case looks great. Is it still almost $200 as listed in your build? Where can one be bought?
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https://www.ncases.com/
  • Pre-orders for all variations of M1 between 2017-JUN-18 PST to 2017-JUN-24 PST will ship on 2017-JUN-28 PST to 2017-JUN-30 PST

  • Pre-orders for all variations of M1 between 2017-JUN-25 PST to 2017-JUL-1 PST will ship on 2017-JUL-5 PST to 2017-JUL-7 PST
 
If the Ncase breaks the budget ( at least emotionally..) then there is also the Raijintek Thetis or Metis.

Both are aluminium and available with glass side panels.

That said, the Ncase M1 is a dream to build in. It's kinda perfect, esp. as all the panels come off.
 
Chapeau said:
If the Ncase breaks the budget ( at least emotionally..) then there is also the Raijintek Thetis or Metis.

Both are aluminium and available with glass side panels.

That said, the Ncase M1 is a dream to build in. It's kinda perfect, esp. as all the panels come off.
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Don't get me wrong, the Ncase looks beautiful. I'd love to build it in. The aesthetics remind me of my Evolv, but even more understated.

Problem is, that pint-sized case costs more than my Evolv, too. XD
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Don't get me wrong, the Ncase looks beautiful. I'd love to build it in. The aesthetics remind me of my Evolv, but even more understated.

Problem is, that pint-sized case costs more than my Evolv, too. XD
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Yup. It aint cheap. Plus you ideally need an SFX psu.. and maybe custom cables. The frame is alu also which can be finicky as its easy to cross thread or strip the teeny tiny screws.

But the quality... hmmmm.. I just love the planning that went into the case.

Maybe you could try something like the Fractal Design Nano S?
- ATX PSU compatibility, nice cable management, good ventilation for a quiet build.
 
Chapeau said:
Yup. It aint cheap. Plus you ideally need an SFX psu.. and maybe custom cables. The frame is alu also which can be finicky as its easy to cross thread or strip the teeny tiny screws.

But the quality... hmmmm.. I just love the planning that went into the case.

Maybe you could try something like the Fractal Design Nano S?
- ATX PSU compatibility, nice cable management, good ventilation for a quiet build.
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I'm actually beginning to lean toward the Node 202. It's got a profile most similar to her Mac Mini, and will fit in the same place on her desk. If I stick with a low-pro GPU, that'll leave the room needed for some carefully packed watercooling equipment. I've seen an all-out GPU and CPU watercooling build in one before, but this would be CPU only, so it wouldn't be as difficult.
 
The node would be a nice choice. I've never seen a loop done in one before.

Actually it reminds me of this which is lovely. Not sure if it will make it, as I haven't checked the status for a while.
 
rfarmer said:
Good luck with it, going to be a tight fit.
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Well, not that tight...
621ac4ef_IMG_20170317_212455_1.jpeg
 
I'll echo the recommendation of the Streacom DB4, and I'll also echo that you should go for air cooling.
 
You might as well strike the "for Wife" from the title since you really want to built this thing for yourself and merely use upgrading her machine as an excuse.

The discussion would have been more productive under the premise of "Watercooling SFF", as you are apparently just looking for case recommendations.

Do as you please, but your wife would be best served with something like a Node 304 and a big honking air cooler like the Thermalright HR-02, and if you have to add a gaming GPU to "give her a choice" Asus and MSI have a great reputation for making cards that are really quiet at load and - more importantly - have zero-fan capabilities where they will turn off the fans entirely in low load situations - which is probably 100% of your wife's use case.

You are now building "her" a system that will be much more expensive than what she needs, more prone to faults, more difficult to maintain and upgrade (even if that falls in your domain), heavier and bigger than necessary and also noisier.
 
babadook said:
You might as well strike the "for Wife" from the title since you really want to built this thing for yourself and merely use upgrading her machine as an excuse.

The discussion would have been more productive under the premise of "Watercooling SFF", as you are apparently just looking for case recommendations.

Do as you please, but your wife would be best served with something like a Node 304 and a big honking air cooler like the Thermalright HR-02, and if you have to add a gaming GPU to "give her a choice" Asus and MSI have a great reputation for making cards that are really quiet at load and - more importantly - have zero-fan capabilities where they will turn off the fans entirely in low load situations - which is probably 100% of your wife's use case.

You are now building "her" a system that will be much more expensive than what she needs, more prone to faults, more difficult to maintain and upgrade (even if that falls in your domain), heavier and bigger than necessary and also noisier.
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Thank you for your input, it will be taken under consideration.

The Node 304 is too big. Watercooling is a choice made to appease the fact that a giant tower of an air cooler will necessitate a case that is too big.

As for your "bigger, heavier, harder to maintain" schpeel, my plan is for it to be smaller than a Node 304, yes it will probably be heavier, and yes there will be a maintenance schedule. None of those things are problems, as I've said already.
 
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VanGoghComplex said:
Thank you for your input, it will be taken under consideration.

The Node 304 is too big. Watercooling is a choice made to appease the fact that a giant tower of an air cooler will necessitate a case that is too big.

As for your "bigger, heavier, harder to maintain" schpeel, my plan is for it to be smaller than a Node 304, yes it will probably be heavier, and yes there will be a maintenance schedule. None of those things are problems, as I've said already.
Click to expand...

His point still stands, though.

You requested a certain thing and have summarily ignored most of the responses given to you about that thing. That is to say, the questions that you asked aren't the questions you're looking for answers for.

Now, that's perfectly fine. I imagine that every single one of us understands the joy of planning and building a new rig - the fact that your wife needs an upgrade of some sort is just a convenient excuse for it. ;)

That being said, there's been a fair bit of hostility in both directions, not all of it uncalled for, so how about we start with a clean slate? I'm going to make a couple assumptions based on the information you've given / information I've inferred from the parts of suggestions you've ignored.

1) You're building a new rig. Budget is no object, within a certain amount of reason.

2) This computer is for yourself. Even though you aren't the one who will end up using it, what you're after is the challenge of a computer built to tight specifications and accomplishing an impressive rig in a very small space.

3) It will be watercooled, which is part of the challenge. This will be hardline, which could be a benefit because of its smaller size, if you're very good at making very complicated bends. If I recall correctly, you're only looking at cooling the CPU, to start with?

4) You want to use a DDC pump, not a D5 variant. That's perfectly fine, although I would strongly suggest finding a PWM variant.

5) You're pretty much just trying to find a case for this setup, and you have a solid idea in mind of what you're looking for, which we aren't privvy to yet.

Now. Does all of that seem accurate, even if it might sting a little? If so, great - we can work to actually give you some advice in the areas you feel like you would like it.

If that doesn't work well for you, then I suggest that everybody just puts their hackles down and walks away, because nothing productive will come of it.
 
darksable said:
His point still stands, though.

You requested a certain thing and have summarily ignored most of the responses given to you about that thing. That is to say, the questions that you asked aren't the questions you're looking for answers for.

Now, that's perfectly fine. I imagine that every single one of us understands the joy of planning and building a new rig - the fact that your wife needs an upgrade of some sort is just a convenient excuse for it. ;)

That being said, there's been a fair bit of hostility in both directions, not all of it uncalled for, so how about we start with a clean slate? I'm going to make a couple assumptions based on the information you've given / information I've inferred from the parts of suggestions you've ignored.

1) You're building a new rig. Budget is no object, within a certain amount of reason.

2) This computer is for yourself. Even though you aren't the one who will end up using it, what you're after is the challenge of a computer built to tight specifications and accomplishing an impressive rig in a very small space.

3) It will be watercooled, which is part of the challenge. This will be hardline, which could be a benefit because of its smaller size, if you're very good at making very complicated bends. If I recall correctly, you're only looking at cooling the CPU, to start with?

4) You want to use a DDC pump, not a D5 variant. That's perfectly fine, although I would strongly suggest finding a PWM variant.

5) You're pretty much just trying to find a case for this setup, and you have a solid idea in mind of what you're looking for, which we aren't privvy to yet.

Now. Does all of that seem accurate, even if it might sting a little? If so, great - we can work to actually give you some advice in the areas you feel like you would like it.

If that doesn't work well for you, then I suggest that everybody just puts their hackles down and walks away, because nothing productive will come of it.
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This is reasonable. In my defense, the suggestions I "ignored" seemed to have been made by people who "ignored" the build prompt I took the time to fill out.

It will be watercooled. I'm very aware of what that means in terms of build cost, complexity, and maintenance schedule. If you don't think I should do that, feel free to click your back button.

That out of the way, yes Darksable, I suppose the case is the main thing I'm trying to get a feel for in the SFF market. If folks felt like getting around the whole watercooling thing, recommendations on things like mITX motherboards, low profile RAM, or small GPUs would also be welcome.

Sorry. Hackles down now.
 
I didn't ignore your prompt and you're free to do what you want. I'm actually curious how it turns out. My thinking was just that if you're not overclocking, not interested in "K" or "Z" skus, are using a ~75W gpu, are using this for image editing, and you want silence... then watercooling makes zero sense. Under that use case, a decent air build will probably cool that system with less noise than the pump itself in a water build. And since the power dissipation is so low for such a system, it's an awesome opportunity for passive cooling. But if you have the watercooling bug, I can't blame you. I've been there.
 
ceski said:
I didn't ignore your prompt and you're free to do what you want. I'm actually curious how it turns out. My thinking was just that if you're not overclocking, not interested in "K" or "Z" skus, are using a ~75W gpu, are using this for image editing, and you want silence... then watercooling makes zero sense. Under that use case, a decent air build will probably cool that system with less noise than the pump itself in a water build. And since the power dissipation is so low for such a system, it's an awesome opportunity for passive cooling. But if you have the watercooling bug, I can't blame you. I've been there.
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Thanks. I realize it might not make a whole lot of sense. Yes, as others have posted, it's as much for me as it is for her. She needs a better machine and I wanna build a SFF watercooled computer.

The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to think about omitting the GPU. Onboard graphics should be sufficient for her purposes (assuming I can find an mITX mobo with two outputs) and this will open a lot of area in the case, particularly if I use a Node 202 or similar.
 
You could fit a 240 rad in the gpu bay of the node 202, then put the pump and res where the psu would normally go. A system like that will draw well under 100W, so in place of an sfx psu you instead buy a plug-in DC-DC (like the hdplex 160W) and a tiny 19V brick.

Don't want a power brick? Put the res and pump next to a 120 rad, all in the gpu bay, and buy a normal sfx psu.

Of course, either option is completely insane, so now I have to see it made.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Thanks. I realize it might not make a whole lot of sense. Yes, as others have posted, it's as much for me as it is for her. She needs a better machine and I wanna build a SFF watercooled computer.

The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to think about omitting the GPU. Onboard graphics should be sufficient for her purposes (assuming I can find an mITX mobo with two outputs) and this will open a lot of area in the case, particularly if I use a Node 202 or similar.
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M itx motherboards with dual outputs is no problem. I just checked all the Z270 itx boards and they have either display port + hdmi, 2 hdmi or 2 hdmi + dvi. So you have lots of options for output.
 
ceski said:
You could fit a 240 rad in the gpu bay of the node 202, then put the pump and res where the psu would normally go. A system like that will draw well under 100W, so in place of an sfx psu you instead buy a plug-in DC-DC (like the hdplex 160W) and a tiny 19V brick.

Don't want a power brick? Put the res and pump next to a 120 rad, all in the gpu bay, and buy a normal sfx psu.

Of course, either option is completely insane, so now I have to see it made.
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I'm beginning to think an external tube res would be a nice way to get some internal space and distinguish the build as something special. Maybe like a Photon 170.
 
An external res is definitely a possibility, though it's infrequently done in an aesthetically appealing way, IMO. I'd look forward to seeing your take on it.

One thought I had regarding the case - especially if you're considering omitting the GPU - is a small-footprint tower case like the FT03-MINI. You could put a 140mm radiator in the bottom, which would definitely be quiet, and supports 1x3.5" drive and two 2.5" drives. Could also look very cool with an external radiator sitting tall right beside it. Just a thought. :)


In terms of other components: don't bother with low profile RAM, just avoid tall heatspreaders. (Though with watercooling, even that's not as much of a concern.) On the motherboard end, I personally believe that Asrock make great mini-itx boards in terms of value for price - their h270 board should cover everything you possibly need.

Oh, and my biggest bit of SFF advice that I recently learned: don't get drawn in by SFX-L power supplies. They aren't actually any quieter than the SFX ones, and having the extra inch of cable routing room is SUPER useful.
 
Okay, looking back over this thread, I'm kicking myself.

Guys, this is why the Node 202 is so appealing:

IMG_20170622_184056298.jpg


This is the space she has. We can place her machine elsewhere if we absolutely need to, but I know she'll be happier if it can sit right where her Mini already sits.

Why I didn't catch this earlier is beyond me, but it's one of the driving criteria, size-wise.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Okay, looking back over this thread, I'm kicking myself.

Guys, this is why the Node 202 is so appealing:

View attachment 28466

This is the space she has. We can place her machine elsewhere if we absolutely need to, but I know she'll be happier if it can sit right where her Mini already sits.

Why I didn't catch this earlier is beyond me, but it's one of the driving criteria, size-wise.
Click to expand...


Oooooh, okay. In that case I'll point out that the node 202 in horizontal positioning doesn't give great airflow to the GPU vents, and so putting a radiator there might be too restrictive. (Also, I'm not familiar with the dimensions of the Mac Mini, but based on the monitors, the node 202 might not even fit between the two stands...)

Looking at that space, I'm back to something like the Cooler Master Elite 110. It has enough room for you to easily fit the 750ti if you like (which might help with the graphic design? If she uses a tablet to draw on, it can push some iGPUs.)

It also should be able to fit watercooling components, if you get a little creative. ;)
(If you want a reservoir, it'll prolly have to be mounted on the back unless you don't use a GPU.)

Edit: also, those headphones are super pretty, I love it.
 
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