SecuROM DRM: Who Has *Actually* Been Affected?

Slade said:
SecurRom has actually affected normal things I do on my computer, like say back up a DVD I own, copy a CD I own etc. I also have security software that securrom tends to prevent from running.
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please be more specific, (Program names, DVDS, etc..)


this i believe is the problem the OP is getting at and i whole hearitly agree..


when issues like DRM come up , what usually happens, is people (many on this board do it) start throwing out hyperbole situations that claim to affect them, when in fact its more of just a made up story to join in the griping. they tend to be vague events, and the more vague the better..


Its funny how many complained about Spore's DRM when in fact they never were affected and the chances were good (probably in the 90% range) that they never would have been affected or even known about it. But hey its fun to complain and gripe and join the bandwagon with some made up story on how their computer would have exploded because of SecureRom..



and its a strange phenomenon, as soon as something comes up, all of sudden the most obscure and out of this world "things" start happening as to why the DRM would be devastating. (My grandma installed Spore on her 10 computer Lan setup to play after her bridge club and now i can't install it on my computer)


and the main problem is, some people may have real legitimate compatibility problems, but its so hard to decern what is made up just for the sake of complaining and what is a legetimate issue.. We went through the same thing with starforce and once it settled down the compat problems where very very minimal..

The person above was more specific in that he had to test some stuff for a book and some of the malware (name of software?) he was testing wasn't working because of securerom, which lesson learned, don't install games on work mission critical computers.. Much of this has been known for a while though, part of some DRM is to effect programs that are specific to circumventing the protection (Blacklisting DVD Emu software for example)..

This is nothing new and not suprising in the least..

we've had a few benchmarkers run out of activations (ClearSky comes to mind)



personally i have had the same issue as Phide, where sometimes the disk won't validate on the first try of running the game.. But i suspect this has more to do with the fact i run a USB external laptop DVD drive (my IDE connected drive has no issues). And isn't specific to secure rom, i've had some starforce games that have this come up too. Maybe my drive isn't the best either.. I find if i leave the disk in i wont' get the error. This has been happening for a couple of years now (and not specific to the newest SecureRom version)


Starforce is the only one i have had much of an issue with and is mainly because starforce needed to be updated. Some starforce on older games isn't compatible with Vista64 so i needed to download and install the starforce update to get them to work, CityLife is one i had this issue with (City life had general vista issues to begin with)..



If the idea is to better our situation by having less strict DRM (and not for making piracy easier) then by bringing the very legitimate issues to light are far more important that complaining as to why you think its not right (which is what this thread has mainly turned into).. In the end you really speak volumes by not buying the software, and also not pirating it (you don't better our situation by pirating it, you actually worsen the problem)..

If securerom keeps your alcohol120% from emulating a pirated disks or even any older disks by blackmailing it, then they won't really care that much (that is probably the fight they are specificially trying to go for anyways)..

But if securerom keeps your Office programs or Photo programs , or even your DVD drive from validating the physical disk then that is an issue that can be taken to them.. Beyond that, i imagine, all they are saying about this, is its the usual Whining Minority that are just complaining for the sake of it.
 
archevilangel said:
"If you have installed on more than three computers within a ten day period, you will need to wait until the first installation expires." Who the hell installs a game on 3 computers in a ten day period besides benchmarkers?
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Myself for one, I have 2 Gaming PCs one here when I am in college in my dorms, and one at home. I will probably install onto both of those on day 1, and chances are I'll install it on the family computer too...
 
k1pp3r said:
No, you don't acctually, you own a plastic CD thats about it, and the manual

Beside's that, i think there are some confirmed issues with secureROM and other DRM, the one major cause of this is the vast amount of different PC makers. You simply can not test on all of them, and due to the nature of the software, issues can occure.
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So you mean I paid 29 dollar for a Game file (DISK) so I don't need to download the game..

Then I rather download the game instead from pirate site..

Is that what you mean by it? :p
 
shansoft said:
So you mean I paid 29 dollar for a Game file (DISK) so I don't need to download the game..

Then I rather download the game instead from pirate site..

Is that what you mean by it? :p
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You paid 29 bucks for a LICENSE to use the software, you do not OWN software EVER.

Why doe people have such a hard time understanding this? Software has always been licensed like this
 
H-street said:
personally i have had the same issue as Phide, where sometimes the disk won't validate on the first try of running the game.. But i suspect this has more to do with the fact i run a USB external laptop DVD drive (my IDE connected drive has no issues). And isn't specific to secure rom, i've had some starforce games that have this come up too.
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I use internal PATA LiteOn drives, which certainly aren't the best drives on the planet, but they don't generally have read issues with CD or DVDs. I'm not sure if I've had any issues with Starforce discs, but Crysis was the one SecuROM-protected game I had issues with.

This sort of thing isn't really a deal breaker for me, but it's still an unnecessary annoyance.
 
It has prevented me from running games when I had drive emulation software installed, and it's prevented me from making legitimate copies of my games so I can play them without the disc in.
 
phide said:
I had some issues with the SecuROM-protected Crysis DVD. I would say that maybe 30% of the time, it would be unable to validate the disc and would refuse to launch the game. Usually launching the executable again did the trick, though in some cases the tray would have to be cycled for Crysis to launch. In seem to recall having to reboot once to get Crysis to launch, though that may have been some other game.
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i had a similar issue with the copy protection on Doom 3, actually the same issue exists now with completely different hardware. about 30% of the time the disc fails to initialize, says it's not the correct disc. restart computer, problem gone.

crysis didn't cause me too many issues, just the fact that it takes a good 30 seconds to initialize the disc... and whatever's going on in my drive during that time sounds... not good.
 
SecuRom pisses me off when I tried to play Crysis and RS:Vegas. I refuse to shuffle DVD/CDs around when I want to play a game, and being a mobile gamer, I don't always have my portfolio of games on hand. So I create ISOs and use Daemon tools.

SecuRom has gotten wise to virtual drives, so for a short while I bent over and took it. Then a wonderful tool called Yasu made its appearance which could cloak my virtual drive and I was once again able to play the games that I paid for without having the disc in the tray.

Medieval II: Total War has similar issues. I don't know if M2TW has SecuRom, but I found that I also have to use Yasu to cloak my virtual drive on this game.
 
I haven't had a problem other than it doesn't remove itself when I uninstall the game, that really pisses me off.
 
I've had problems with a game DVD not being recognised and more than one taking forever to try and find the encoded bad sectors etc, thus causing excess wear to my DVD drive.
I have some experience in the development of early DRM so understand why this happens.
I also saw the result of drives undergoing testing, some became irreparably damaged.
I have read quite a few reports online of users having the same experience.

Another issue isnt down to the DRM itself but how its implemented. The games are protected by limiting the number of installs and require online activation.
That makes me mad, torrented games dont suffer but honest paying customers do.
Fucking backward thinking.
Its pretty obvious that some Game houses they are trying to kill the resale market as well.

My last issue is that the only software I trust to run on Ring 0 is that produced by Microsoft or decent AV / Firewall products.
They have their eye on security quite strongly so risk is minimal and is sure to be patched fast.
Securom and any other DRM on Ring 0 is dangerous because anything that can insert into it / infect it can take control and gain full access to your PC.
And you might never know that you are being keylogged or tracked.

Remember Sonys attempt at protecting CD playback with a rootkit that had back doors?
Simply shameful behaviour.
 
k1pp3r said:
You paid 29 bucks for a LICENSE to use the software, you do not OWN software EVER.

Why doe people have such a hard time understanding this? Software has always been licensed like this
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so you got the point there...

I have the "RIGHT" to use the software..

BUT....I BEEN LIMITED TO USE IT NOW!!!

Because I CANT EVEN INSTALL THE DAMN FREAKING GAME!!!

Does that make more clear to you?

So basically I OWN THE BOX with a DISK and manuals ...

What can I do with it? NOTHING....

Its encouraging people to pirate it rather than buying it...

but no, I am not going to pirate it, not even use a damn crack for my retail copy..

It doesnt make any sense....
 
It makes me not buy any game with it. Ever. I will never pay for one of these games. If they did away with it, put some real effort into multiplayer, I would buy most major pc releases. As is, I buy all of my games. I am just limited b/c of this asinine practice of alientating Real customers.
 
damonposey said:
we're gonna need some evidence of forums FULL of people with issues. because i doubt they are full at all. Also it's not an 'issue' if someone can't install the game on 6 different PCs.
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Simply go to the bioshock forums, search the tech forums, or even the general one for that matter, it's not hard to do, i was browsing them forums for days during the release since the EU version lagged by a few days and we got to see the fallout of the american release first hand, it was not pretty.
 
shansoft said:
so you got the point there...

I have the "RIGHT" to use the software..
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Well according to the EULA you have the "right" to use it, until your activations are up. Sucks don't it

BUT....I BEEN LIMITED TO USE IT NOW!!!
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Yes you are, Just like i'm limited to use my spam filters/insert any other software

Because I CANT EVEN INSTALL THE DAMN FREAKING GAME!!!

Does that make more clear to you?
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It is clear you used your activations in 10 days which is YOUR fault. I am not saying limits are acceptable on games, but you knew the limits, and did it anyway.

So basically I OWN THE BOX with a DISK and manuals ...
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Yep, pretty much. What happens if you buy an MMO and don't pay the monthly cost?

What can I do with it? NOTHING....

Its encouraging people to pirate it rather than buying it...

but no, I am not going to pirate it, not even use a damn crack for my retail copy..

It doesnt make any sense....
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It really doesn't make sense to you or I, but it made enough sense to someone that they put the crap in there, personally i have not been bothered by it as i have not bought any games with activation limits. I don't have much game time right now, so i'm not bothered by it, they just don't get my money.

No, saying that, DRM has not affected my system which i know about. The only thing that HAS affected my system, was a game disk shattering in my DVD drive, that sucked


****This whole thing remindes me of a issue a user had awhile back****

User: Hey i can't print
Me: what does the printer say on it
User: Load paper
Me: Well load some paper in it
User: I can't i used it all
Me: Well you can't print till you get more paper, order some.

The goods in the situations are different, but thats how software is,
 
Frostex said:
Simply go to the bioshock forums, search the tech forums, or even the general one for that matter, it's not hard to do, i was browsing them forums for days during the release since the EU version lagged by a few days and we got to see the fallout of the american release first hand, it was not pretty.
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Didn't Bioshock remove the install limit in one of the patch's?
 
k1pp3r said:
Well according to the EULA you have the "right" to use it, until your activations are up. Sucks don't it



Yes you are, Just like i'm limited to use my spam filters/insert any other software



It is clear you used your activations in 10 days which is YOUR fault. I am not saying limits are acceptable on games, but you knew the limits, and did it anyway.


Yep, pretty much. What happens if you buy an MMO and don't pay the monthly cost?




It really doesn't make sense to you or I, but it made enough sense to someone that they put the crap in there, personally i have not been bothered by it as i have not bought any games with activation limits. I don't have much game time right now, so i'm not bothered by it, they just don't get my money.

No, saying that, DRM has not affected my system which i know about. The only thing that HAS affected my system, was a game disk shattering in my DVD drive, that sucked
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Its not my fault if I install my game 3 times in 10 days..

Also, its not 10 days.... its more like 20 days ... Thats their respond...

And they did not MENTION ANYTHING about the 3 TIMES ACTIVATION...

It only says it need "INTERNET" For activation ...

It's call SCAM....
 
shansoft said:
Its not my fault if I install my game 3 times in 10 days..

Also, its not 10 days.... its more like 20 days ... Thats their respond...

And they did not MENTION ANYTHING about the 3 TIMES ACTIVATION...

It only says it need "INTERNET" For activation ...

It's call SCAM....
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Haha, how is it not your fault you installed it 3 times, your the one who installed it. WOW,

Also, Most games post the requirement online days or weeks before release. What game are we talking about here, i'll go find the EULA which you agreed to.
 
k1pp3r said:
Haha, how is it not your fault you installed it 3 times, your the one who installed it. WOW,

Also, Most games post the requirement online days or weeks before release. What game are we talking about here, i'll go find the EULA which you agreed to.
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Most of us don't see the EULA until we start the setup routine. Of course, by then we've already opened the game and are SOL as far as returning it to the retailer.

Anyone here actually get into their favorite chair with a blanket and read the entire EULA before installing a game? :D
 
SPARTAN VI said:
Most of us don't see the EULA until we start the setup routine. Of course, by then we've already opened the game and are SOL as far as returning it to the retailer.
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EXACTLY, which is a totally different issue than this thread. But i totally agree with that

{quote]
Anyone here actually get into their favorite chair with a blanket and read the entire EULA before installing a game? :D[/QUOTE]

No, my GF reads them to me for bedtime stories lol. I don't think i have EVER read and EULA, not even warhammer, which makes me accept it everytime the game loads
 
k1pp3r said:
No, my GF reads them to me for bedtime stories lol. I don't think i have EVER read and EULA, not even warhammer, which makes me accept it everytime the game loads
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They should be short and sweet:

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.

All your rights are belong to us.

BLAH BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[ ] I accept this agreement.
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I haven't been affected personally and as long as there are hacks to fix the authentication/install limit when I want to play it 10 years from now its good enough for me.

I'd rather an "acceptable" form of DRM over playing with a crappy controller on a console for my fps/adventure type games.
 
Rurik said:
FYI, in most federal circuit courts, EULAs are invalid and non-enforceable.
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It kind of depends on the EULA and the circuit. I don't know that I'd make a blanket statement that even "most" are invalid. It's an issue I wish the courts would be clear on. Companies just shovel 20 pages of click through shit into EULA and it takes some tremendous resources to fight one if it comes to that. Even if they're not enforceable, they are defacto unchallengeable by a non corporation....ie the common man.
 
It affected me, indirectly.

SecuROM, and schemes like it, killed PC gaming for me.

I don't condone, or participate, in piracy at all - be it games or movies/music. I just don't do it. I have almost 1000 original console games (and that's after selling off an almost complete collection of US NES titles), a 1000+ title DVD collection and more CDs than you'd believe. I am happy to pay for software, and just as happy to pass stuff by if it is a pain to own or use.

I will NOT pay for a crippled product that treats me as if I'm guilty before even getting the thing running, when it would be LESS effort to steal the goddamn thing. In my case, as I said, I just pass this sort of crap by ... life it to short to even think about it twice.

Beyond that, I am a professional developer myself - across many platrorms. I understand the desire to protect one's product from casual piracy.

But the bottom line is that you CAN'T.

I am willing to bet that, among the justifiably paranoid technical types, many more of them pirated games like Spore specifically to avoid the collateral affects of the DRM than to avoid paying for the game.

As a developer I routinely have software installed on my machines that things like SecuROM don't like. They're there for a legitimate purpose. I am not devaluing my hardware by installing a trivial piece of entertainment.

I used to keep a "dedicated" gaming PC. It was always cutting edge. Having to keep it as such to get the best value out of a game AND not be able to use it properly for anything else in fear of upsetting the almight DRM gods was just too much to justify what has become a mediocre entertainment experience at best.

If the games I do wish to play aren't on consoles (I have every "console" released here and in the UK since about 1977) , or have funky DRM, today I just pass.

If you want to install drivers or services, or anything else that isn't removed the second I uninstall, you better damn well be shipping under the Microsoft or Apple brands.
 
k1pp3r said:
Haha, how is it not your fault you installed it 3 times, your the one who installed it. WOW,

Also, Most games post the requirement online days or weeks before release. What game are we talking about here, i'll go find the EULA which you agreed to.
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Hey, I purchase the software, they did not mention anything about limited installation until it shows up that warning to me and not allowing me to install it..


And no, I did not install this game on 3 "PHYSICAL" Computer..

I did all on same computer to do benchmark...

And no, I did not reinstall the game, the game require me to re-activate every time when I reinstall Operating System....

So ... YOU MEAN IT IS MY FAULT WHEN THEY DID NOT WARN ME ABOUT IT..

woo... So you talking about its my fault now when there is nothing telling me I cannot open the game after 3 hardware changes...

is there one that in EULA DID WARN ME ABOUT? NO..

And no again, EULA is not law, also most of the time the EULA are invalid ...

If anyone want to go up to court for this, I am in......

This is nothing personal but "CUSTOMER RIGHTS"
 
I had a huge problem on NWN2. I didn't get around to trying to install it until after the return period had expired so I couldn't take it back.

Whatever I did, it would not allow me to play. I spent a few weeks trying everything on Google, on the NWN and Atari forums and through official Support tickets. They sent me special patch files to try. Nothing worked and the intitial install completely screwed up my optical drive drivers and various CD/DVD writing programs on my system.

Once in a while, when new patches were released, I tried to play and none of them fixed the problem.

So, in the end I spent a ton of time (hours which I should charge Atari for) and ended up with a useless brick of a game. And it screwed up my system. On top of that, at every step of the way I had to deal with "are you sure it's not user error"? I could write a book on all the possible methods to fix it, but none of them worked for me.

I don't know what percentage of people are affected, 15%, 5% or 2%? Whatever the percentage, it probably still adds up to thousands of paying customers who fall through the cracks with a non-working game and and they are treated like a criminal every step of the way, without ever getting a resolution or refund (not to mention hours wasted).

I guess it's just part of their business model, they figure losing x% of customers with non-working games is less important then the supposed lost sales they would have without DRM.

Maybe most customers will never have a problem with DRM, but when you're one of the few "exceptions" with a broken game that they choose to ignore while taking your money, it's a big deal.


By the way, posts like these about how DRM is fine and people with real problems with it are just whiners or making up stories, gets real old real fast. I get it, you've never ran into a problem, so it's not real for you. I wish I could say the same. Fact is, it is a real problem for a lot of people.
 
shansoft said:
Hey, I purchase the software, they did not mention anything about limited installation until it shows up that warning to me and not allowing me to install it..


And no, I did not install this game on 3 "PHYSICAL" Computer..

I did all on same computer to do benchmark...

And no, I did not reinstall the game, the game require me to re-activate every time when I reinstall Operating System....

So ... YOU MEAN IT IS MY FAULT WHEN THEY DID NOT WARN ME ABOUT IT..

woo... So you talking about its my fault now when there is nothing telling me I cannot open the game after 3 hardware changes...

is there one that in EULA DID WARN ME ABOUT? NO..

And no again, EULA is not law, also most of the time the EULA are invalid ...

If anyone want to go up to court for this, I am in......

This is nothing personal but "CUSTOMER RIGHTS"
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Look man, what game are we talking about, and did you read the EULA?

I relize they are not law, i never said they were, but it does say, "have your read this and agree to its terms"

You checked yes to continue not EA or whoever.

Whats the game?

Also if you truly reinstalled your OS you would have reinstalled the game again. Like their rules stated an OS is considered a new PC.

Once again, whats the game, we can clear this up very easily.
 
k1pp3r said:
Look man, what game are we talking about, and did you read the EULA?

I relize they are not law, i never said they were, but it does say, "have your read this and agree to its terms"

You checked yes to continue not EA or whoever.

Whats the game?

Also if you truly reinstalled your OS you would have reinstalled the game again. Like their rules stated an OS is considered a new PC.

Once again, whats the game, we can clear this up very easily.
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But, DID THEY MENTION IN MANUAL OR EULA?

The answer is NO

they gave me that respond after I contact them
 
well, ive been re-installing quite a bit lately, because of issues with XP, and getting used to vista, and the eventual upgrade to 64bit vista, and ive already used up all my installs on crysis warhead -.-
 
k1pp3r said:
You paid 29 bucks for a LICENSE to use the software, you do not OWN software EVER.

Why doe people have such a hard time understanding this? Software has always been licensed like this
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People are stubborn and refuse to see software anything other than a standard physical product like any other, and we both know that's just not how it works, it's arrangement of bumps on a disc, or megnetic fields on a hard drive, it's not a tangible product at all, a lot of software is exclusively sold online now a days, wheres the tangible product there?

This is why piracy gets compared to stealing all the time, people think it's a physical product and that you're a "thief" if you "steal" a copy, it's actually funny to see the words STEAL and COPY in the same sentance how are you stealing something when you're making a copy of it?

Software has it's own laws that apply, you don't own a copy of the software, you own a licence to run the software itself, the licence to use it only exists while you agree to and abide by the EULA, although there is some debate as to how enforceable they are.

k1pp3r said:
Didn't Bioshock remove the install limit in one of the patch's?
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It did, actually. About a year after it's release, I'm not sure how this helps the people that were having problem on launch day?

SPARTAN VI said:
Most of us don't see the EULA until we start the setup routine. Of course, by then we've already opened the game and are SOL as far as returning it to the retailer.

Anyone here actually get into their favorite chair with a blanket and read the entire EULA before installing a game? :D
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This is the sort of nasty behaviour that gamers have to put up with, and then developers wonder why people so easily turn to piracy.
 
shansoft said:
But, DID THEY MENTION IN MANUAL OR EULA?

The answer is NO

they gave me that respond after I contact them
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Given the face that i have asked you 3 or for times for what game you had an issue with, I'm just gonna leave this to rest and call your a troll, you have no issue here, but i'll offer you some cheese to go with your whine.

If you had a VALID issue with a game, your would have told me the name of it the first time i asked you.
 
I was affected. When I switched to the LG Bluray drive, the DRM on Crysis wouldn't let me play any longer. I suppose if I popped the old IDE DVD burner into the system as a second optical, it might work from it, but ...

WHY?

... do I, a legit user stupid enough to have paid for Crysis have to go out of my way with hardware compromises just to accomadate SecuRoms paranoia?

So I haven't played it since.... anyone buy my copy, $20?

I don't use the virtual drive stuff of Nero, but I assume if I dare to, it would flip out and get pissed about that too.
 
What i find comical is that they are blocking CD burners from working, but yet it doesn't require a cd burner to pirate a game, lol
 
k1pp3r said:
Given the face that i have asked you 3 or for times for what game you had an issue with, I'm just gonna leave this to rest and call your a troll, you have no issue here, but i'll offer you some cheese to go with your whine.

If you had a VALID issue with a game, your would have told me the name of it the first time i asked you.
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Didn't I already state the game a while ago on the first post :rolleyes:

Crysis Warhead ... That is the game..
 
It knocked my grandmother over in a store once.
 
I bought BioShock, and at that point in time I was living in a college dorm. The college network was restrictive -- they're paranoid, don't want filesharing, virus propagation, etc. I installed the game -- it took at least half an hour, on my then nearly brand new machine (E6420, 4GB RAM, 680i, 8800 GTX, Vista 64bit). Then it asked me to activate... and failed. Deleted all the files it'd just copied and decompressed.

I spent the next 3 days trying to convince my college that I should be allowed to open 3 ports in order to get the game activated. They finally did it on the fourth day. In the interim I brought the game back to GameStop and was told it was open and I was out of luck regarding a return. I called 2K Games and asked about a refund through them since I could not make use of the software (I had online access, but could not activate) and the fact that they'd broken their own EULA by the use of limited activations through SecuROM (at that point, maximum of 5 activations, but the EULA said a single installation on a single machine at any given time... you know, like every other piece of software you've ever installed). I was of course refused.

It's the last piece of 2K Games published software I've bought or will ever buy, and the last game with a limited activation system I will ever buy. When I purchase a piece of software, I own the rights to use it on a single machine. Whenever I want. Wherever I want. When the SecuROM activation servers go down I likely won't be able to use much of that software... and the mere potential there just isn't acceptable.
 
I didnt read the whole thread but Atari fumbled a nwn2 update over the summer that was supposed to patch securom, instead it just made windows explorer go nuts and caused frequent crashes until I got it resolved. other than that, its cool
 
 
Far Cry 2 has just been released, head over to their forums now, the general and tech forums are ripe with pissed off people who can't play the game, can't activate it etc etc...
 
 
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