Sounds mostly hopeful to me. Lack of AG, good viewing angles, better than hoped for color gamut coverage, USB hub, and even displayport, which I wasn't expecting. I just hope the imput lag isn't too bad. Three months is a long way away though, and it would've been nice to hear some kind of ball-park retail price...
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Samsung SA850 on PLS - the first review has been published (preproduction unit)
- Thread starter albovin
- Start date
It's true though. The panel in the NEC LCD2490WUXi was nearly perfect. Why didn't any other monitor use that panel? What happened to the A-TW polarizer? Why are they using the grainy anti-glare coating again? Why is the vertical viewing angle worse on newer IPS panels? Why are there 6-bit IPS and PVA panels now?Whoisthisreally said:
Not only have they stopped innovating, they've started going backwards. I'm still using the NEC EA231WMi that I got in 2009, and nothing better has come along. There is nothing to upgrade to except a bigger monitor with more limitations. I don't think I'll be trying any more monitors.
Only TN panels have made any strides in the past 2 years with better contrast/color presets and 120hz displays.
2009 Samsung releases the 120hz 2233rz..........2011 we get 60hz- 3D....wtf?
IPS has gone backwards with excessive grain, smaller sizes and the lack of A-TW polarizers. IPS gets better contrast on the e-ips models but this is countered by the non-existent QC.
PVA has disapeared in the low-mid range to be replaced by smaller C-PVA/MVA with very high contrast but are to slow for most people to be used as multi-media displays.
This years e-ips displays (LG IPS236V/231P and Asus ML239H) are all measured to be nearly twice as slow (by PRAD.de) as the 2010 Dell U2311H.
16:10 replaced by 16:9, this is countered by the cheaper pricing.
LED backlighting...cheaper to make, cheaper to buy, but terrible screen uniformity....
There is that 20" Glossy NEC IPS display with a perfect response time and low input lag....why didn't they make bigger versions? Instead we get a grainy Dell 2209WA.
Lets reflect on that 24" NEC again....why go downhill from here?
+1 companies intentionally not innovating.
2009 Samsung releases the 120hz 2233rz..........2011 we get 60hz- 3D....wtf?
IPS has gone backwards with excessive grain, smaller sizes and the lack of A-TW polarizers. IPS gets better contrast on the e-ips models but this is countered by the non-existent QC.
PVA has disapeared in the low-mid range to be replaced by smaller C-PVA/MVA with very high contrast but are to slow for most people to be used as multi-media displays.
This years e-ips displays (LG IPS236V/231P and Asus ML239H) are all measured to be nearly twice as slow (by PRAD.de) as the 2010 Dell U2311H.
16:10 replaced by 16:9, this is countered by the cheaper pricing.
LED backlighting...cheaper to make, cheaper to buy, but terrible screen uniformity....
There is that 20" Glossy NEC IPS display with a perfect response time and low input lag....why didn't they make bigger versions? Instead we get a grainy Dell 2209WA.
Lets reflect on that 24" NEC again....why go downhill from here?
+1 companies intentionally not innovating.
Last edited:
It isn't really a conspiracy theory. It is simply that computer monitors are very low priority on the innovation front (and thus R&D money). Most people are just buying cheap $150 panels at the big box store. All my friends buy these. None spend for expensive monitors, they pretty much think I am nuts for spending ~$1300 on my NEC.
Manufacturers just don't see computer monitors as where the money/competition is, so more innovation goes into TV/Mobile.
TVs:
There are supposedly a few 5000:1 native contrast panels in TVs. AMVA5 is supposed to be native 15000:1 for TVs, though there are no products yet AFAIK. There is also local dimming array backlights (not very practical for monitors IMO), Sharps RGBY four color screens (dubious IMO). Clearly more going on here even if some of it may be of questionable value. This is simply a more competitive space, so more R&D goes here.
Mobile:
PLS looks like it was a more a priority for Mobile than desktop. Samsungs 10" tablet is epected to be PLS it might also get them a contract with Apple for iPad 3. Plus many phones are OLED. If iPad 3 does jump as expected to 2048x1536, I expect all the competitors will follow suit and in 2012 we will probably have the strange situation that new tablets will have more resolution than most new desktop monitors. It is what the competition is doing that drives the market.
Desktop Monitors:
Meanwhile in desktop monitors pretty much nothing is happening. My 2490 is nearly 3 years old and there isn't a new computer monitor on the market today that I would consider trading for it. We really have had marginal to no improvement in those three years IMO. I'd seriously consider getting a new backlight when it wears out if possible. I hope PLS is a legitimate IPS competitor before that day.
Last edited:
here is why there is lack of 'innovation' . . .
because the vast majority of people who purchase monitors don't even understand (or care) what makes a good monitor. they are either just clicking a box when ordering a computer online, or grabbing something at walmart or best buy. they have no idea what the difference is. all they know is they like bigger screens and when you look at stats bigger must be better and they want as cheap as possible. hence the birth of larger screens with 10,000,000,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio that most people can afford that are all pieces of crap. this brings in the volume and money for the manufacturers and so this is what they focus on.
because the vast majority of people who purchase monitors don't even understand (or care) what makes a good monitor. they are either just clicking a box when ordering a computer online, or grabbing something at walmart or best buy. they have no idea what the difference is. all they know is they like bigger screens and when you look at stats bigger must be better and they want as cheap as possible. hence the birth of larger screens with 10,000,000,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio that most people can afford that are all pieces of crap. this brings in the volume and money for the manufacturers and so this is what they focus on.
Some people find it less annoying than others, and probably not everyone will notice it. I have experienced a broad range of LED edge-lit laptop displays, and although they are TN, the backlights do flicker. I have also seen a single Hydis AFFS screen with LED edge-lit in a Thinkpad X201t tablet (i think it was) and it also flickered.
I have used their own 15" FFS panel in a T60p laptop, which features about the same display technology, but there's no flicker to be seen - due to the CCFL.
A CCFL is probably acting more like a "smoothing filter" than LEDs.
Personally I don't mind the flickering, but honestly, why didn't they just drive it at multiple thousand Hz instead? If the reason is that the white balance again will drift, as if it was driven with a constant current source, then IMO the idea of using LED backlighting is flawed.
And I do agree that there's about zero progress these days. LG seems to be more interested in rolling out lots of panels and brand themself with "IPS", although the quality control and flexibility seems to approach a joke.
I wonder if broadcast monitors from e.g. Flanders Scientific or eCinema are actually better - i'd really like to see this one in real life: http://www.ecinemasystems.com/products/monitor.php?product=1 . But affording one is a different matter... $40,000 .
(and yes, USD)
Last edited:
Let's consider PLS an innovation.
This is basicly IPS panel made by Samsung with some improvements towards general users. But a kind of innovation.
2560x1440 is also a recent addition to fill the gap between 1920x1200 and 2560x1600.
I believe it will take more reputable manufacturers about a year to release their new monitors based on PLS.
So the prospectives are not bad.
sblantipodi
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2010
- Messages
- 3,765
I completely agree with you, do you think that Samsung will abandon S-PVA in favour of this new PLS?
S-PVA has annoying color shift (not different from c-PVA), nice angle glow, relatively poor viewing angles and unevenly lit pixels (makes text fuzzy).
Popularity of PVA has been going down. PVA is neither good for high-end market (cannot compete in image quality), nor for low-end (too slow for gamers, too expensive for housewives).
It's not surprising that Samsung is now working on more sophisticated technology.
IMO S-PVA isn't worth a penny since c-PVA.
No one can say for sure that Samsung is ready to abandon it completely and how soon.
24", 27" c-PVA models would be a good addition to monitors market.
But PLS looks much more promising.
Popularity of PVA has been going down. PVA is neither good for high-end market (cannot compete in image quality), nor for low-end (too slow for gamers, too expensive for housewives).
It's not surprising that Samsung is now working on more sophisticated technology.
IMO S-PVA isn't worth a penny since c-PVA.
No one can say for sure that Samsung is ready to abandon it completely and how soon.
24", 27" c-PVA models would be a good addition to monitors market.
But PLS looks much more promising.
sblantipodi
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2010
- Messages
- 3,765
Because you used to talk without knowing and you focused your life on bashing
a technology in favour of another technology.
That's funny.
MoreGooder
n00b
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2009
- Messages
- 50
I fear I will never find another monitor as good as my NEC 20WMGX2. I paiid $800 in 2006 I think. Worth every single dollar. Since then, my eyes have aged and I long for larger pixels and larger text without messing with the windows font sizes.
I suppose reading glasses will have to do.
*sigh*
I suppose reading glasses will have to do.
*sigh*
would be?
Such monitors will be released in June.
S27A650D / S27A650DS / S24A650D / S24A650DS
specs:
Model No: S24A650D Size: 24 in Viewable Area: 24 in Contrast Ratio: MEGA DCR(Static 3000:1) Response Time: 8ms Brightness: 250 cd/m Display Resolution: 1920x1080 Viewing Angle: 178 / 178 Input: DVI, VGA, Displayport Bezel Color: Matt Black Pixel Pitch: 0.27675 x 0.27675 Warranty: 3 yr Special Features: "Eco Saving, Multi Screen S/W,Samsung Magic Bright, Samsung Magic Color, Off Timer, Customized Key, Image Size, 0W Mechanical Switch, Carring Hadle, Cable Arrangement" Description: LED Panel,Includes VGA cable, Stand: 150mm HAS, Pivot, Tilt, Swivel, VESA 100 x 200mm wallmount
Model No: S27A650D Size: 27 in Viewable Area: 27 in Contrast Ratio: MEGA DCR(Static 3000:1) Response Time: 8 ms Brightness: 300 cd/m Display Resolution: 1920x1080 Viewing Angle: 178 / 178 Input: DVI, VGA, Displayport Bezel Color: Matt Black Pixel Pitch: 0.3113 x 0.3113 Warranty: 3 yr Special Features: "Eco Saving, Multi Screen S/W,Samsung Magic Bright, Samsung Magic Color, Off Timer, Customized Key, Image Size, 0W Mechanical Switch, Carring Hadle, Cable Arrangement" Description: LED Panel, Includes VGA cable, Stand: 150mm HAS, Pivot, Tilt, Swivel, VESA 100 x 200mm wallmount
http://www.provantage.com/samsung-s27a650d~7SAMD0RA.htm
The review is pretty optimistic.
27" PLS
Good viewing angles
Good image quality
"Regular" AG coating
Good responsiveness
Decent resolution
Built quality is never guaranteed.
What else do you need?
Albovin, are the mid-range Eizo monitors S-PVA or c-PVA? The FS and EV series seem to rate pretty well.
> 27" PLS
> Good viewing angles
> Good image quality
> "Regular" AG coating
> Good responsiveness
> Decent resolution
> Built quality is never guaranteed.
> What else do you need?
a version that is glossy like the Apple 27" (no milky foggy AG crap)
24p
25i
backlight blacking (for persistence-of-vision)
more pixels (at least 1920x1200, 2560x1600 would be nice)
acceptable honest (worst case) response time numbers
(I'm assuming that 8 ms is the usual "average on a 'typical' unit".
They should spec the worst case on the worst unit.)
No RTC artifacts (assuming it uses RTC to get to 8 ms)
good build quality, no tinting, no backlight bleed, no stuck (sub)pixels
1:1 pixel mapping if driven at less than native res
FLOSS firmware (assuming it has firmware)
On display in brick&mortar stores so we can see what it looks like.
bonus points for component, s-video, composite, hdmi
bonus points for available integer-only scaling of low-res input
(no scaling artifacts or stretching) (e.g. 640x480 from firmware)
> Good viewing angles
> Good image quality
> "Regular" AG coating
> Good responsiveness
> Decent resolution
> Built quality is never guaranteed.
> What else do you need?
a version that is glossy like the Apple 27" (no milky foggy AG crap)
24p
25i
backlight blacking (for persistence-of-vision)
more pixels (at least 1920x1200, 2560x1600 would be nice)
acceptable honest (worst case) response time numbers
(I'm assuming that 8 ms is the usual "average on a 'typical' unit".
They should spec the worst case on the worst unit.)
No RTC artifacts (assuming it uses RTC to get to 8 ms)
good build quality, no tinting, no backlight bleed, no stuck (sub)pixels
1:1 pixel mapping if driven at less than native res
FLOSS firmware (assuming it has firmware)
On display in brick&mortar stores so we can see what it looks like.
bonus points for component, s-video, composite, hdmi
bonus points for available integer-only scaling of low-res input
(no scaling artifacts or stretching) (e.g. 640x480 from firmware)
1920x1200? Why would anyone want to buy a 1920x1200 display when everything is 16:9?
1920x1080 is an amazing resolution.
Last edited:
You've bickered with people for scores of pages about the relative merits of 16:10 and 16:9 displays. I assume you've at least read and considered the arguments made by 16:10 fans, and can answer your own question.
Full English Version:
Samsung SyncMaster SA850: World’s First Monitor on PLS Matrix
Samsung SyncMaster SA850: World’s First Monitor on PLS Matrix
Last edited:
This is exactly the same review we are discussing here - now in English.
Sorry, didn't know it was exactly the same.
Still good, as that is much more readable than a google translate.
Around $900
It is listed on numerous sites.
http://www.compsource.com/pn/S27A850D/Samsung_389/
http://www.provantage.com/samsung-s27a850d~7SAMD0RC.htm
specs:
Model No: S27A850D Size: 27 in Viewable Area: 27 in Contrast Ratio: 1000:1 Response Time: 5 ms Brightness: 300 cd/m Display Resolution: 2560 x 1440 Viewing Angle: 178 / 178 Input: Displayport, Dual Link DVI x2, USB 3.0 x 3 Bezel Color: Matt Black Pixel Pitch: 0.3113 x 0.3113 Warranty: 3 yr Special Features: "Eco Saving, Multi Screen S/W,Samsung Magic Bright, Samsung Magic Color, Off Timer, Customized Key, Image Size, 0W Mechanical Switch, Carring Hadle, Cable Arrangement" Description: LED PLS panel, Includes DVI cable, USB 3.0 Cable, Stand: 150mm HAS, Pivot, Tilt, Swivel, VESA 100 x 200 wall mount
Last edited:
Anyone notice this exact same article cut and past show up on xbit labs but in english? Same guy?
Damn, I was really hoping it'd be less than that, around $600-700...
The U2711 has been available for more than 1000 at release. It went down to 800 and now 600, so I wouldn't say we can say anything about the price yet.
sblantipodi
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2010
- Messages
- 3,765
all good monitor without a better monitor next to it seems amazing.
sblantipodi
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2010
- Messages
- 3,765
used to read prad.de reviews this seems a small article with some thinking more than a reviews
They indeed are. But the glossy surface is something you really have to like. I don't mind it but a lot of people hate it.
Peteman100
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,466
PLS panels are supposed to cost less to produce compared to IPS