Samsung intros IPS competitor: PLS

ZoNe said:
Some predictions:
This will be only 256K color
This will be slower than IPS
This will have same viewing angles as IPS and finally Samsung can legitimately claim 178 degree viewing angles.
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One prediction:
You have no idea.

I mean seriously... you don't have ANY clue what PLS is and what they are actually trying to improve compared to IPS. None of us has, so just stop writing wild guesses.

Fact is that even if Samsung "only" manages to get "IPS without AG coating" we might finally have a competitor to LG. And that means that LG will finally have to improve quality. I personally could live with every single IPS problem except the AG coating. Every improvement beyond the coating is just a "nice to have" feature. Wouldn't say no to it either of course :) IPS is a pretty good panel technology and there's not a single IPS problem that couldn't easily be fixed by some additional hardware (A-TW polarizer) or some higher quality components. Samsung doesn't have to do a miracle.
 
Ok I admint that contrast isn't easily fixable. But an A-TW polarizer does a good job fighting the white glow, and for most users 1000:1 contrast without the white glow should be acceptable. I don't want a perfect panel, I could live with "IPS without the AG coating". Everything beyond that is nice but not necessary.

OLED has some major issues like for example color accuracy. I doubt we will see a professional color-accurate OLED display anytime soon. OLED is nice for smartphone displays (or does anyone plan to install Photoshop on his mobile? :) ) but I personally cannot quite see it in desktop displays quite yet.

No matter what PLS will bring the market, the least it can do is bring some competition for LG. And competition is always a good thing.
 
PCM2 said:
There have also been concerns regarding the differential rates of degredation of the blue (in particular) vs green and red organic compounds - but massive improvements have already been made in this area
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Have they though? If AMOLED displays from phones are anything to go by, it is still a huge problem for desktop monitor use. My friend's Samsung Galaxy S which is supposed to use latest and best OLED display is already showing signs of degradation after a couple of months of use. You can see "burned in" ghosts of notification bar icons when displaying solid colors, especially blue. Makes me wonder what would happen if you were to run such display 8 hours a day then. OLED is a long, long way off. Plasmas are still not burn in resistant to this day and in theory the problem with OLED is even worse.
 
Walker said:
Have they though? If AMOLED displays from phones are anything to go by, it is still a huge problem for desktop monitor use. My friend's Samsung Galaxy S which is supposed to use latest and best OLED display is already showing signs of degradation after a couple of months of use. You can see "burned in" ghosts of notification bar icons when displaying solid colors, especially blue. Makes me wonder what would happen if you were to run such display 8 hours a day then. OLED is a long, long way off. Plasmas are still not burn in resistant to this day and in theory the problem with OLED is even worse.
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I agree, it is much like Plasma. I wouldn't get my hopes up for a computer an OLED computer monitor ever. If it happens, good, but don't expect it.

2015 is likely pushing it even for a practical TV, which gets much less of a beating than a computer monitor.
 
If OLED is anywhere close, why would Samsung even bother with PLS? I have looked into OLED several times over the the past several years and I keep seeing the same thing "at least 3 to 5 years". The only positive thing I have seen is that DuPont has developed a meaningful printing process for OLED, as mentioned above.

Also with regard to Samsung beeing a fibber, there is some truth to that. At CES 2, (or maybe 3) years ago Samsung announced that they would support displayport and that it would be in their next 30 inch display. Then the 305T Plus came out without it and was poorly supported until they dropped it entirely.

One other minor thing is that I read an artical that claimed that user feedback on the difference between iPhone and Droid handsets was that the Apple IPS display was much better at least in the users view.

Like others have said above, I really hope that PLS is a real competitor for IPS, but we will have to wait and see.

Dave
 
PCM2 said:
Companies, even as large as Samsung, do not spend billions of dollars and years upon years of time investing in a technology for nothing that's for sure.
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I think people aren't aware that approaching an understanding of OLED through displays is naive. OLED displays are almost a technological footnote relative to the revolutionary capacity of OLED as a light source. For the first time, not only are we thinking about moving away from point source illumination to illuminated surfaces and configurable geometries, OLED allows us at the same time to make these new forms of lighting flexible, transparent, colour tunable and even touch sensitive.
 
PCM2 said:
I think we will see a 'practical OLED TV' from LG this year - unless if by 'practical' you mean 'affordable'.
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Yes practical, includes affordable.

LG seems to be following the Sony OLED trajectory after releasing an expensive toy mini-TV, they are doing next to nothing.

LG is already off target. In 2009 they said they would have 32" OLED in 2010.

http://www.techradar.com/news/television/lg-32-oled-tv-coming-june-2010-593828

That never happened. If they can't even predict one year out, I certainly don't buy their other claims about affordable large OLEDs by 2015.

And that is just for TVs, the Burn in issues show no sign of going away and would be a significantly bigger problem for monitors.
 
ZoNe said:
Why the need when their PVA is already the best?;)
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Heh, you hit the nail right on the head.
Certainly it has to ring a bell somewhere when none of the better/highend brands choose VA panels for their highest-end monitors - regardless of price. (objectively seen... i can't think of any exception... really!).
Obviously this is a major problem for Samsung.

BrePu said:
I mean seriously... you don't have ANY clue what PLS is and what they are actually trying to improve compared to IPS. None of us has, so just stop writing wild guesses.
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Guess it was sarcasm (although Samsung has a habit of creating hype for nothing... "LED"-TVs anyone?)

Some interesting stuff i just found.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20090027609.pdf

They are trying to improve the transmittance with the added effect of better off angle brightness. The same thing that FFS and AFFS has accomplished for a decade (!).
 
BrePu said:
One prediction:
You have no idea.

I mean seriously... you don't have ANY clue what PLS is and what they are actually trying to improve compared to IPS. None of us has, so just stop writing wild guesses.

Fact is that even if Samsung "only" manages to get "IPS without AG coating" we might finally have a competitor to LG. And that means that LG will finally have to improve quality. I personally could live with every single IPS problem except the AG coating. Every improvement beyond the coating is just a "nice to have" feature. Wouldn't say no to it either of course :) IPS is a pretty good panel technology and there's not a single IPS problem that couldn't easily be fixed by some additional hardware (A-TW polarizer) or some higher quality components. Samsung doesn't have to do a miracle.
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Guessing my behind. Mechanically and electrically it sounds just like AFFS+ which has those characteristics. Also Samsung are notorious for stretching the truth even more than most pathetic monitor makers.
 
IanM said:
never mind the OLED, whatever happened to the Blue Phase LCD Samsung promised at CES 2008? Mass production was promised for this year: http://www.samsung.com/us/aboutsamsung/news/newsIrRead.do?news_ctgry=irnewsrelease&news_seq=8351 I want a real 240Hz display please
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Polymer stabilised BP is showing hysteresis and a voltage/transmittance curve that is sensitive to temperature in tests. If BP is truly viable, I wouldn't expect it to be made obsolete by OLED: a BP future means we may be able to run an LCD TV off of a 9 volt battery, for instance. That would be fairly interesting in the eyes of makers of mobile devices and digital signage.
 
PCM2 said:
- Another possible model, 24" with 1920 x 1200 coming shortly afterwards according to information here - http://www.samsung.com/global/business/lcdpanel/product/monitor.html
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I would definitely consider waiting until this one comes out before making a choice between the two PLS monitors. 24" WUXGA would be just fine in my book, and will undoubtedly be cheaper than the 27".


BrePu said:
Fact is that even if Samsung "only" manages to get "IPS without AG coating" we might finally have a competitor to LG. And that means that LG will finally have to improve quality. I personally could live with every single IPS problem except the AG coating. Every improvement beyond the coating is just a "nice to have" feature. Wouldn't say no to it either of course :) IPS is a pretty good panel technology and there's not a single IPS problem that couldn't easily be fixed by some additional hardware (A-TW polarizer) or some higher quality components. Samsung doesn't have to do a miracle.
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You said it. If it hadn't been for the anti-glare, I'd be on a U2711 right now with no complaints at all. Yet somehow, we have to wait for an entirely different panel technology just to get the benefits of an IPS screen without trying to see it through a film of rainbow grit. I'm very hopeful that Samsung can fulfill this really very modest consumer desire...
 
I haven't understood, you are saying that PLS will cover the middle-low end series of monitors, but am I wrong or PLS should be better also in the high end series when compared to IPS/PVA?
 
Ideally, performance will be comparable to IPS/PVA while also theoretically less expensive, due to the economical manufacturing process that produces the PLS technology.

In other words, PLS is perfectly suitable for high-end performance, while also costing less money than a similar IPS or PVA monitor. At least, that's what Samsung's marketing would have us believe.

Whether that ideal will be realized, of course, remains to be seen.
 
Spring would be badass. I think using my U2711 for one year is more than enough considering that I just hate it that bad. Offer me the proper replacement display and I will give you my money Samsung :)
 
Looking forward for PLS in real world usage. If it has better contrast than IPS and no glow with even angles it could be a good one.
Just had a quick look at posted link from German site and the following images made me laugh. Apart from not hiring a native English speaking translator for helping out in their promotional text "...are designed for people":rolleyes:
Samsung also "compares" a "conventional" monitor with their 27'er attributing SXGA resolution to the conventional (yet wide aspect) one to contrast with the 2560x1440 of theirs.
6.jpg
 
drtc said:
Looking forward for PLS in real world usage. If it has better contrast than IPS and no glow with even angles it could be a good one.
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I think we are all waited to see if it really does deliver IPS viewing angles. Then to see if it has IPS glow. I think we are all assuming that it will at least have less aggressive AG coating. Contrast is only reported as 1000, essentially the same as IPS.
 
what do you think the prices will be?
If Dell U2711 is for £699, would this be less than that? £500 maybe?
 
Snowdog said:
I think we are all assuming that it will at least have less aggressive AG coating.
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Where did this assumption come from? I remember one of the NEC S-PVA was slated for having some really extreme AG - it was one of the 24", maybe LCD2470WNX? definitely 2470 something. I hope Samsung don't use strong AG for these monitors, but I don't think it can be assumed that they won't.
 
IanM said:
Where did this assumption come from? I remember one of the NEC S-PVA was slated for having some really extreme AG - it was one of the 24", maybe LCD2470WNX? definitely 2470 something. I hope Samsung don't use strong AG for these monitors, but I don't think it can be assumed that they won't.
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The assumption comes from the AG coating on all other Samsung panels, which is not anywhere close to as aggressive as LG places on their IPS panels. There is no reason to believe that Samsung will all of a sudden begin producing a different, extremely aggressive AG coating for a handful of new displays rather than use the sheets they already produce for other displays.
 
drtc said:
Looking forward for PLS in real world usage. If it has better contrast than IPS and no glow with even angles it could be a good one.
Just had a quick look at posted link from German site and the following images made me laugh. Apart from not hiring a native English speaking translator for helping out in their promotional text "...are designed for people":rolleyes:
Samsung also "compares" a "conventional" monitor with their 27'er attributing SXGA resolution to the conventional (yet wide aspect) one to contrast with the 2560x1440 of theirs.
6.jpg
Click to expand...

This is a hilarious image. Not only is the 1280x1024 shown on a 16:9 monitor, the images on the two displays are almost identical. Who comes up with this stuff? Hopefully not a monitor engineer :)
 
steal said:
The assumption comes from the AG coating on all other Samsung panels
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I admit I can't think of a Samsung own brand monitor that people have complained about strong AG, but obviously the panels can be specified with a various types of AG & AR (which is probably defined by whichever standard the customer wants the monitor to conform to) hence NEC have Samsung panels with hideous AR for very bright offices. My (small amount) of doubt over the SA850 is because it's being described as a 'professional' monitor.

On the upside, the SA750 & SA950 might be better anyway for home users and games:
http://www.digitalversus.com/240-hz-technology-confirmed-samsung-3d-monitors-news-17404.html (assuming these are also PLS and/or real 120Hz/240Hz rather than some frame interpolation nonsense)
 
Even if PLS will suck (and I personally doubt it will suck) - we still have two additional office labeled 27" displays using a panel called "MVA" on their slides (I highly doubt that they are thinking about *that* MVA, my guess is that it's a new version of their cPVA panel).

cPVA in 27" with 3000:1 contrast ratio sounds like a great deal to me. Especially if you consider that the price of both of the 27" office displays should be below the "professional" PLS panel. If PLS gets a decent AG coating on it I might have a hard time deciding which panel I prefer. 3000:1 vs 1000:1 - on the other side questions like input lag vs white glow.

All in all the whole thing is very promising. We have two major new releases and both of them could be great. I'm really optimistic to finally see some improvement in the LCD market.
 
IanM said:
I admit I can't think of a Samsung own brand monitor that people have complained about strong AG, but obviously the panels can be specified with a various types of AG & AR (which is probably defined by whichever standard the customer wants the monitor to conform to) hence NEC have Samsung panels with hideous AR for very bright offices. My (small amount) of doubt over the SA850 is because it's being described as a 'professional' monitor.

On the upside, the SA750 & SA950 might be better anyway for home users and games:
http://www.digitalversus.com/240-hz-technology-confirmed-samsung-3d-monitors-news-17404.html (assuming these are also PLS and/or real 120Hz/240Hz rather than some frame interpolation nonsense)
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Forget AG if their marketing is true:
Perfect viewing angles no shift
<5ms response & 240Hz
half the power of competitors
No black crush
perfect blacks
USB 3


This will be only monitor made & You'll find every type of AG.

I wonder if I should sell my 2490 right now while it's still worth something?:p
 
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ZoNe said:
Forget AG if their marketing is true:
Perfect viewing angles no shift
<5ms response
half the power of competitors
No black crush
perfect blacks
USB 3


I wonder if I should sell my 2490 right now while it's still worth something?:p
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it could be really interesting.
 
BrePu said:
All in all the whole thing is very promising. We have two major new releases and both of them could be great. I'm really optimistic to finally see some improvement in the LCD market.
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Yes; exactly. At least someone is trying to give us better choices. We will have to wait and see what they actually deliver.
 
All I need to know about PLS is: "how fast?" (in practice, not on paper)
We need a practical alternative to TN / CRT for proper gaming.
 
Solstice said:
All I need to know about PLS is: "how fast?" (in practice, not on paper)
We need a practical alternative to TN / CRT for proper gaming.
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How fast do monitors really need to be for gaming? Granted, I've never 120Hz TN displays, which I hear are fantastic. But I put my DELL U3011 IPS side by side to a 60Hz TN and I swear I couldn't tell a difference when gaming. I know on paper IPS is "slow" and TN is "fast", but for me personally, the difference in real life seemed miniscule?
 
Ashok0 said:
How fast do monitors really need to be for gaming? Granted, I've never 120Hz TN displays, which I hear are fantastic. But I put my DELL U3011 IPS side by side to a 60Hz TN and I swear I couldn't tell a difference when gaming. I know on paper IPS is "slow" and TN is "fast", but for me personally, the difference in real life seemed miniscule?
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I think the question will be how is the input lag. Hopefully its very low.
 
blaze_itt said:
do you guys think this tech might drop down ips prices?
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No matter how much cheaper they seem to be able to manufacture it, they're always try to price it competetively, but not much lower than the competition - it's priced after performance, like speakers, cars etc. Even though development costs may be lower, they obviously aren't giving it away. So no, i don't think it will affect costs of IPS much at all.

Anyway, i've started to not really become excited about this beforehand... so many disappointments, despite of claims. At their first demonstrations they used something which definitely didn't look as IPS as a comparison measure to make PLS look better... and i bet every other manufacturer would do the same in order to make their own product shine. :)
 
I can't help but do feel excited about it even if I know it will likely lead to disappointment :) IPS-like tech with potentially better QC and finally some competition to LG can only be a good thing. If Samsung are able to improve the viewing angles at least a little, avoid or minimize tinting problems, that alone would be a great achievement in my view. Less harsh AG coating would be a plus too even though that's something that has never bothered me. These monitors don't seem to be aimed strictly at professionals so they probably won't cost more or siginicantly more than an equivalent IPS panel.
 
DO. WANT. NOW.

Every minute in front of my U2711 is such a torture. Samsung please get this thing on the market!
 
BrePu said:
DO. WANT. NOW.

Every minute in front of my U2711 is such a torture. Samsung please get this thing on the market!
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A bit OT but if you don't mind me asking, why didn't you return a monitor that you hate so much? I assume it's the lack of alternative choices but really, if you feel using it is a torture, surely it would be better to use something else no matter the size or resolution?
 
When will we see these monitors selling on stores? Spring, but when? March or April?
 
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