QMicra SFF Case

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Treyshadow

[H]ard|Gawd
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OK, so I was reading the reviews on newegg of the Foxconn 6150 board, and someone mentioned this case. Well a few minutes on google.com I found this site:

http://pcdesignlab.com/Qmicra.htm

Has anyone heard about this case, and/or the combo with the Foxconn 6150 board?

Just interesting in something other than the X-QPack or SG01 (though I have a X-QPack now).
 
wow, I haven't heard of that...looks neat...too bad no 120mm fan, that is what I would be looking for.
 
it has potential, but i think it's going to look kind of lopsided. its 1/4" taller than the qpack, and ~1" wider. they need to get some product pictures up already, and someone needs to review it. and my bet is the price tag will b along the lines of the sg01 or higher. hopefully i'm proven wrong.
 
4x80mm fans is no good by the way. 120mm or 92mm is the only way to go with SFF.
 
It sounds 2 short... only 33cm long... enough problems fitting a PSU + DVD drive ina Qpack and its 35cm long..
 
emptyshell said:
It sounds 2 short... only 33cm long... enough problems fitting a PSU + DVD drive ina Qpack and its 35cm long..
Click to expand...
im guessing that the psu is going to be mounted sideways so the cables are coming out towards the side instead of straight like in the qpack.
 
Steeeeve said:
4x80mm fans is no good by the way. 120mm or 92mm is the only way to go with SFF.
Click to expand...

Not really, 4x 80mm fans is fine and is better than the 1x 120 in the qpack if they are set up right
 
It Looks interesting, i will be keeping an eye on the site to see if they come up with any more info or pics
 
Hello All,

My name is Dave and I'm the designer/engineer of the Qmicra SFF case. We are always interested in hearing feedback about our products which is why I am here reading your posts and attempting to answer your questions.

Why (4) 80mm fans? Our tests showed that a pair of low to mid RPM 80mm ball bearing fans will simply push more air... more quietly... than a 120mm fan. Our fan controller is currently configured to offer three fan modes: all 4 fans running at 100%, the back fans running at 75% with the front fans runing at 50% and the back fans at 50% with the front fans off. (This will be programmable if you want to try something else.) When running idle, there is no difference between running the fans in full or quiet modes. The CPU stays at around 36 deg. C. The difference occurs when you put a serious load on the system. (We ran 3DMark and Prime95 simultaneously on a 4400+ duel core AMD CPU.) Kick in the front fans and the temps hit a wall around 52 deg. C. Furthermore, we placed the fans where the most air will pass over the most components and the "front to back" airflow allows much more air to pass through at lower fan RPM's than the other SFF cooling solutions. (Simple is often the most effective.) Finally, we liked the system redundancy of having multiple fans.

How is the PSU mounted? We are using a full size ATX, 470W, PC Power and Cooling "Silencer" mounted in its normal orientation. It is mounted on a removable cage that also holds the (2) 5-1/4", (1) 3-1/2" and (4) hard disks. We designed the mounting holes so that the PSU can be flipped 180 deg. so you can use a PSU with a top fan and have it draw air from the top or the bottom. We experimented with smaller PSU's... and this would have certainly made the overall dimensions of the case smaller... but they run too loud and don't have the power to run high end components.

Why the Foxconn 6150 MB? It was simply its features. Gigabyte LAN, true 7.1 channel audio, the 6150 GPU and 430 MCP, SATA II and most importantly, it has 3 full PCI slots with the PCI-E slot. Not the useless PCI x1 slot that the other manufacturers decided to add at the sacrifice of a full PCI slot. We tried the Gigabyte, MSI and ASUS boards but had nothing but problems with them. (Posting errors!) The Foxconn has been running rock solid and we liked the full overclocking features. Foxconn is primarily an OEM board manufacturer so chances are that you've owned one even though it had your favorite brand name on it. We like the Foxconn... for now. We will technically put any component you desire into our systems. And because we have a "lean inventory" structure, we can offer the latest and greatest components when they come out.

What is the deal with the shape and size? First of all, with a cube style case, the base dimensions will be driven by the 9.6"x9.6" motherboard. It may be a hair wider than the Qpack (the "lunchbox" as we affectionately call it), but this small additional space got you 4 hard drives. That's potentially 2 terabytes of disk space as of this writing! Plus you can use RAID 0, 1, and 0+1 configurations. (And you don't have to tape a drive to the outside of the case like I saw in the SFF gallery. *laffs*) The length is driven by the PSU and CD drive. The Lite-On and Plextor drives both fit (the Lite-On is a bit shorter) but the Plextor is a bit tight so we may extend the final design by 1/2" so the PSU cables aren't crammed between them inhibiting airflow to the PSU. But it will still be significantly shorter than the Silverstone. In short, the size has been driven primarily by the components. If you want full ATX power in a SFF case, that's the size you get. We just one-upped the competition by offering a better cooling solution, space for more components and surrounded them with a high quality enclosure.

Is it a cheesy Shuttle clone? *lol* No. Although style is certainly subjective, we tried to offer an aesthetic that was appealing to a broader range of users. (We could have made it look like an uber-gaming case but who else would buy one?) We did however keep modding in mind when the case was designed. For example, we saw that people liked to add pictures between the face and the base of Shuttles which is a cheap, easy, yet highly effective way to personalize the look of your computer. So we added the face. The cover is made in a way where you can add windows galore... or maybe you want it to be totally transparent? Maybe you want the entire thing anodized in gold with laser engraved images? Would you like a chrome face? We (or you) can do things like that with Qmicra. In short, we tried to design Qmicra to essentially be a "pre-modded" system by taking advantage of the latest aftermarket part technologies while still allowing for user customization of the aesthetic.

What is the price? Well... I won't lie to you when I say that it will be on the upper end of the SFF price range. It is made from laser cut, anodized, 1/16"+ aluminum. All the screw holes are steel reinforced to prevent stripping, the system includes aftermarket mod supplies such as high quality fans, round cables, acoustic matting, and other features that we feel should be standard these days. It is also designd to be built in sub-assemblies which makes it easier to assemble/disassemble. In addition to this, we want to have as many of our products made in the USA as possible which has driven the price up. We realize that this is a touchy political area, but we feel that it's vital for small local businesses to support each other... no matter which country they're located in. It's also nicer to do business with our vendors face to face. There is certainly a need for large volume manufacturers but that is not what we are. We can spend more than two weeks building a single system if the customer configuration demands it. We may also only build 10 systems per month. But this is because each computer is built by hand to assure quality, fit and function. And you can still have one priced comparatively to our closest competitors. In short, although there is obviously a need for manufacturers like Honda, we are more like Ferrari in our business structure. And simply put... you get what you pay for.

When is it coming out? I'm looking at the prototype as I write this. (It's eyeing me wearily as it awaits its next round of testing.) I was probably being over-eager by mentioning Qmicra on Newegg but happy that it resulted in opening limited dialogues such as this one. Anyway, we should have it ready to go by late February or early March. A proper release of pictures, specs, reviews etc. will occur in the very near future.

I hope this has addressed your questions and concerns. (I could go on and on about Qmicra's other features...) I will leave the floor open to discuss as much as I can about Qmicra as the design was based largely on reading reviews and comments such as the those posted here.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I noticed that a lot of you want SLI on uATX boards. I just wanted to say that this will be a moot subject in the near future due to duel core VGA GPU's allowing you to get SLI speeds into one PCI-E slot!
 
Sorry. The pics will have to wait until the official press release. Besides, it looks a bit like a dejected lab rat from all of our testing.
 
I was preaching the dual-GPU sermon long ago. Finally someone else has figured this out! Thanks pcdlab, but I might have to stick with my QPack now. I've modded it too much to throw away...unless one of you lucky guys want to buy it. Btw, have you thought about painting the inside of your case?
 
pcdlab,

After owning many of the recent Shuttle models as well as the X-Qpack and Silverstone SG01 - I have yet to find the "perfect" SFF system that blends the best features with high end components. I can definitely concur with the issues you raised that went into consideration for the Qmicra. Specifically the choice of the motherboard with 3 full PCI-E slots to accomodate a dual slot+ Video card cooling solution (Arctic Silnecer) with enough room to add a PCI Sound card and the cooling / noise issues.

I tried making the swicth to MATX from Shuttle but was not happy with either system for the various resons you mentioned. The X-Qpack is just too plain looking "lunchbox" ;) and the SG01 had serious cooling issues with my high end components and is way too long for my liking.

Based on the info you provided will the Qmicra fit the dimensions of the new ASUS dual 7800GT card? as I don't believe it would fit in the X-Qpack or SG01 as it is too tall.

Also, are you considering releasing it as a barebone system? IE: Case and Motherboard. (and possibly a decent PSU) That would be the configuration I am interested in since I already have all of the other components.

I am definitely looking forward to more information on this new SFF PC and would definitely consider adding one to my collection of SFF PC's :cool:
 
Thanks for taking the time to give us an update on what looks to be an excellent case.
 
Blah! If I didnt have to attach two gargantuan (to a mATX) radiators to a small form factor case, I'd probably have waited for this Qmicra. As it is, I simply cant see a 120mm radiator and a 2x80mm radiator fitting in any other case, especially not the Qmicra. However, 4 hard drive slots is a god given miracle for a small form factor, as is excellent equipment mounting abilities. Its a shame I'll have to keep my 'lunchbox,' as you call them. :D

I'm curious as to know how exactly one measures how much air is pushed through a case by a given case and fan airflow design, and what about the small form factor case makes 4 80mm case fans more efficient than other cooling methods (1x120mm fan and 2x80mm?). And, since apparently this is true, why exactly case manufactuers like Antec (and the super Lanboy) use all 120mm fans instead of 80mm fans. :confused:
 
Ubermouser said:
Blah! If I didnt have to attach two gargantuan (to a mATX) radiators to a small form factor case, I'd probably have waited for this Qmicra. As it is, I simply cant see a 120mm radiator and a 2x80mm radiator fitting in any other case, especially not the Qmicra. However, 4 hard drive slots is a god given miracle for a small form factor, as is excellent equipment mounting abilities. Its a shame I'll have to keep my 'lunchbox,' as you call them. :D

I'm curious as to know how exactly one measures how much air is pushed through a case by a given case and fan airflow design, and what about the small form factor case makes 4 80mm case fans more efficient than other cooling methods (1x120mm fan and 2x80mm?). And, since apparently this is true, why exactly case manufactuers like Antec (and the super Lanboy) use all 120mm fans instead of 80mm fans. :confused:
Click to expand...

4x 80mm fans > 1x 120mm fan. Common sense :p However when there is room, 120 > 80.
 
By the sound of it, dave, you are gonna make these like shuttle and include the mobo, PSU and case all in one package? I'm a bit confused by your post when you say stuff like "We may also only build 10 systems per month." Will these systems be the whole thing, cpu and all? The people here on [H] (and I think I'm speaking for all of us) are more into building our own systems and tweaking them ourselves. I think your best bet would to release a case and a good PSU, or just the case and no PSU at all. I'm just waiting for pics, inside and out. Also, we'd like to see these prototype, just a reference, no judgements will be passed, just more questions and suggestions. I know that I'd love to have another option for an SFF case when I go to build one this summer, and I'd like to see a new company get into the market. Good luck!

-Matt
 
ScreamingBroccoli said:
By the sound of it, dave, you are gonna make these like shuttle and include the mobo, PSU and case all in one package? I'm a bit confused by your post when you say stuff like "We may also only build 10 systems per month." Will these systems be the whole thing, cpu and all? The people here on [H] (and I think I'm speaking for all of us) are more into building our own systems and tweaking them ourselves. I think your best bet would to release a case and a good PSU, or just the case and no PSU at all. I'm just waiting for pics, inside and out. Also, we'd like to see these prototype, just a reference, no judgements will be passed, just more questions and suggestions. I know that I'd love to have another option for an SFF case when I go to build one this summer, and I'd like to see a new company get into the market. Good luck!

-Matt
Click to expand...
from what i read, i think you get the option to have it pre-assembled by them or buy the case by itself.
 
It all comes down to price. A Qpack is $65-75 or so if you find one on sale. Kind of hard to beat at this point.
 
arabdon1203 said:
Not really, 4x 80mm fans is fine and is better than the 1x 120 in the qpack if they are set up right
Click to expand...

And 4 times as loud...mmm, no thanks.
 
yeah, I am a bit suspect of the 4x80mm fans ....but ya never know.

Dave,

Do you think this case can be watercooling...I know swiftech has a nice 80mm radiator that might go nice with the 4x80mm fan areas. Watercooling a SFF is where it is at :)
 
Humm.....Just getting ready to order a XQpack, Maybe I'll wait ;) ......EZ ( Hey pcdlab do you need a ginnipig to play with your new case? :D )
 
Hello Again,

Thanks for the warm welcome and interest. Here is another attempt to answer the latest barrage of concerns. I apologize for the length but there is no quick way to field the technical questions raised. I promise less words and more pictures in the future.

--> Yes, it will fit the ASUS Extreme Dual N7800GT. (Right now it has an EVGA 7800GTX with an Arctic Cooling NV Silencer Rev.3 so width definitely isn't an ussue.) The additional length and height have been accounted for as we are backing the duel GPU horse. (Are you thinking of being 1 of the lucky 2000 to own one?) It will be interesting to see if the next-gens fit in the Shuttle, Q-Pack, or SG01 however.

We got the dimensions here: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/video/g70-8.html


--> How did we test the fans? First we did some simple research and found great articles like the ones shown below. These pages have some seriously detailed tables and you can do some simple math by comparing the CFM and RPM ratings shown. Just be aware that specifications released by the fan manufacturers are often exaggerated.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article63-page1.html
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article25-page1.html

Then we did real world testing. We took (1) 120mm fan and (2) 80mm fans and locked them in a dark room for a week with only enough food for one... wait... that's how we hire sales people. Actually, we ran smoke through a mock-up of the case and measured the airflow through an opening with an anemometer for the duration of time it took to evacuate the smoke. This gave us our CFM. We then ran both fan configurations at the same CFM's (which means each ran at different RPM's) and used a RTA frequency analyser to measure and compare their acoustic characteristics. We did this at low to high CFM's to yield a performance curve. The RTA confirmed what we heard... the low-mid "thrummm" of the 120mm... the high-mid whine of the 80mm's... and the white-noise-like rush of air in both. We found the whine preferable to the thrummm as we simply added some acoustic matting to the inside of the cover which ate most of it up. There's nothing you can do to hide the low-mids of the thrummm. (If anyone is interested, we also graphed the high pitched scream of the smoke detector that went off during the test.) In short, we found that the 2-in/2-out configuration was optimal just like the author found in the above link. For those of you who are uber-geeks like ourselves, the link below is an example of the math used for the testing:

http://www.nfsrps.com/airflow_formulas.html

For those of you who doubt the results... think of it this way. Imagine 4 people moving a small car... two pulling it and two pushing it. Together, they can do it easily as each person will only need to supply a fraction of their power. Now imagine one guy pulling the same car. He will have to take all the work and grunt and groan while doing it. By this I mean that (1) 120mm fan will have to run at a higher RPM to move the same amount of air as (2-4) 80mm fans which will equate to added noise and vibration. This is because there is more surface area to the blades of a 120mm fan than (2) 80mm fans which cut throught the air thus making more noise. And as posted earlier, it is not necessary to run all (4) 80mm fans at 100% power at all times. The (2) back fans running at 50-75% (1500-1750 RPM's) is sufficient for normal use. But when you start doing some serious gaming, you can kick in the front fans in stages for added cooling. (You won't come close to noticing the added air noise over your chain -gun noise.) And as also mentioned, several configurations are possible with a programmable controller.

So why do the other SFF cases use a 120mm fan? Our guess is cost as it's cheaper to supply (1) sleeved "el-cheapo" 120mm fan rather than (4) 80mm good ball bearing fans.


--> Will we paint the inside of the case? No... it's anodized all throughout (the parts are dipped in an electrolytic bath) which is more durable... and in our opinion... more sweet looking. =)


--> Will Qmicra be offered as a barebones system? The answer is yes... but not right away. We will be selling it as a system at first as we wish to control and test what goes out the door. We will offer the barebones version once we have accumulated enough data and are convinced that it will suit a broad enough range of needs. There are also cost concern as we don't deal in mega-high volumes. Think of us like the ASUS dual GPU card mentioned above. It is currently the best out there, only a limited number will be sold and they are in a premium price range. I heard the collective "groan" of you readers... but it's preferrable to the screams we would hear over the phone because of unforeseen problems. I realize that this dialogue may be a terrible tease and our "don't ship it until it's right" philosophy doesn't fit squarely into a world of instant gratification... but we refuse to release junk that will disappoint people.

Regards,
Dave - pcdlab
 
4 80mm fans moving 32 cfm @ 26dB each vs 1 120mm fan moving 77cfm @ 35dB.... who wants to do the math?

Anyone?

Beuller?
 
kumquat said:
4 80mm fans moving 32 cfm @ 26dB each vs 1 120mm fan moving 77cfm @ 35dB.... who wants to do the math?

Anyone?

Beuller?
Click to expand...
Hint: the 4 80mm fans will be quieter.

Does anyone know how to add decibels?

I'll give you another hint: the added combined sound of the 80mm fans will be about 32dB.
 
We haven't tried to water-cool it but there should be enough room to fit a pump, blocks, tubes, etc. The reservoir would probably have to be mounted on the outside of the case. The case runs at less than 30 deg. C (ambient) idle with less than 20dB of fan noise so we didn't see a need for it. Serious over-clockers may however.

It's an interesting subject to us because the performance gains to water cooling are only useful for extreme use. The down side is that you are paying much more for a small amount of performance gain. It can be argued that air cooling a 4400+ AMD, a 7800GTX and a gig of Corsair XMS RAM... with a moderate amount of overclocking... is plenty powerful enough these days. Water cooling also requires a fan which doesn't completely solve the noise issues. (Unless you want to install a monolith of a cooling tower.) Then there is the potential for leaks. Honestly, we don't think the price, size and complexity of watercooling is justified to get an extra couple fps in Doom.

But I'm not trying to discourage you. You're the customer and we want you to be able to add the features that make you happy. We're just picky and it's a frequent topic of ours because we are currently researching better (and newer) ways to cool a computer.

-Dave


Steeeeve said:
yeah, I am a bit suspect of the 4x80mm fans ....but ya never know.

Dave,

Do you think this case can be watercooling...I know swiftech has a nice 80mm radiator that might go nice with the 4x80mm fan areas. Watercooling a SFF is where it is at :)
Click to expand...
 
FYI: After researching the ASUS Dual 7800GT further - it does require an SLI Motherboard, so it is out of the question for SFF until an MATX SLI MOBO is available.

Based on the dimensions provided it would not fit in the SN26P without modding....
 
Yup... the MB needs SLI. But the MB manufacturers seem to be taking the uATX support seriously judging by the latest round products. I imagine they'll offer this as well (eventually) when a solid dual GPU NVIDIA reference card is invented. I'm guessing it will all come together by this summer.

Yup... it doesn't look like it will fit in any of the current SFF cases. But we didn't take a direct measurement... just eyeballed it... so we didn't want to make any false claims. We designed our case from scratch and its unlike any of the other designs so we don't have a direct comparison.

-Dave (pcdlab)


dworley said:
FYI: After researching the ASUS Dual 7800GT further - it does require an SLI Motherboard, so it is out of the question for SFF until an MATX SLI MOBO is available.

Based on the dimensions provided it would not fit in the SN26P without modding....
Click to expand...
 
I'm watercooling my QPack mainly because I don't trust air anymore. After my P4E 2.8ghz started overheating, I got pissed. I'm probably not going to OC very much (if at all), but watercooling makes me feel safer, oddly enough.

Too bad about the paint, btw...
 
kumquat said:
Hint: the 4 80mm fans will be quieter.

Does anyone know how to add decibels?

I'll give you another hint: the added combined sound of the 80mm fans will be about 32dB.
Click to expand...

exactly :eek:
 
I'm missing something here. Why would you want paint on the inside of the case? Are you planning on putting on a window and want it to look nice on the inside? If so, the anodizing will be inside and out. The entire part is coated. If it's blue anodized... it will be blue on all sides of the part. We could also anodize different parts different colors. You could have a red cage, black base, red cover, or whatever. Also, anodizing is way more durable and sweet looking than paint.

In regard to trusting air, that's yet another reason why we like having 4 fans. Redundancy! If 1... 2... or even 3 die in a freak cooling accident... you still have 1 to keep your system cool before alarms start going off, things start shutting down and chips start burning up.

M4rk said:
I'm watercooling my QPack mainly because I don't trust air anymore. After my P4E 2.8ghz started overheating, I got pissed. I'm probably not going to OC very much (if at all), but watercooling makes me feel safer, oddly enough.

Too bad about the paint, btw...
Click to expand...
 
well, for me I wanted a light-weight quiet and easily movable computer...

Watercooling worked here because it went from a GPU fan, CPU fan, 120mm fan and maybe another fan to just one 120mm which I can adjust the speed on. The CPU and GPU fans make a lot of noise and its annoying...my 120mm fan can make a lot of noise if I want or it can be quiet if I want. You are right to say that these advantages are not worth the extra cost...but the braggin rights and uniquness of it make it worth it to some.
 
Steeeeve said:
well, for me I wanted a light-weight quiet and easily movable computer...

Watercooling worked here because it went from a GPU fan, CPU fan, 120mm fan and maybe another fan to just one 120mm which I can adjust the speed on. The CPU and GPU fans make a lot of noise and its annoying...my 120mm fan can make a lot of noise if I want or it can be quiet if I want. You are right to say that these advantages are not worth the extra cost...but the braggin rights and uniquness of it make it worth it to some.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, did you say something about light weight? :eek: My watercooled Qpack is heavier than the v1000 I built when aircooled.

I believe what pcdlab is getting at is that since a single 120mm fan has a static pressure push of only about 3mm H2O, while at the same time a comparably loud 80mm fan will push about 2mm H2O. Since there are more 80mm fans then there would be 120mm fans, the fans will then push a larger amount of air since there is less resistance per fan. A good comparison would be the Danger Den 22psi high pressure pump vs the D5 high speed pump. Of course the high speed pump will operate better, but only at around 4 psi. Above that, the 22psi powerhouse will always win out.

I simply have no respect for 80mm fans after having 11 of them in my old Raidmaxx :p
 
Your point is well taken and although our testing has led us towards an air cooled design, we won't debate your preference for any reason you may have. Qmicra can be modded to hold an H20 cooling system so if that's what you want... we say "Go for it!". ;)

-Dave (pcdlab)

Steeeeve said:
well, for me I wanted a light-weight quiet and easily movable computer...

Watercooling worked here because it went from a GPU fan, CPU fan, 120mm fan and maybe another fan to just one 120mm which I can adjust the speed on. The CPU and GPU fans make a lot of noise and its annoying...my 120mm fan can make a lot of noise if I want or it can be quiet if I want. You are right to say that these advantages are not worth the extra cost...but the braggin rights and uniquness of it make it worth it to some.
Click to expand...
 
pcdlab said:
Your point is well taken and although our testing has led us towards an air cooled design, we won't debate your preference for any reason you may have. Qmicra can be modded to hold an H20 cooling system so if that's what you want... we say "Go for it!". ;)

-Dave (pcdlab)
Click to expand...

I had no point at all actually. I was just explaining why I went to watercooling...a normal person really has no reason to do it because it is too expensive. The only real advantage is noise and bragging rights.

I'm sorry, did you say something about light weight? My watercooled Qpack is heavier than the v1000 I built when aircooled.
Click to expand...
Really? My watercooled Qpack weighs the same as my lcd monitor and less than my UPS :eek: I think it comes in around 15lbs...maybe a little under.
 
pcdlab said:
I'm missing something here. Why would you want paint on the inside of the case? Are you planning on putting on a window and want it to look nice on the inside? If so, the anodizing will be inside and out. The entire part is coated. If it's blue anodized... it will be blue on all sides of the part. We could also anodize different parts different colors. You could have a red cage, black base, red cover, or whatever. Also, anodizing is way more durable and sweet looking than paint.

In regard to trusting air, that's yet another reason why we like having 4 fans. Redundancy! If 1... 2... or even 3 die in a freak cooling accident... you still have 1 to keep your system cool before alarms start going off, things start shutting down and chips start burning up.
Click to expand...
I guess I'm just uneducated. I didn't know anondizing was availible in different colors. Black would be really nice, if you do it inside and out on all the metal parts. I could see myself buying a QMicra sff case if a dual 80mm rad could be mounted in it. Whats the suggested retail?
 
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