Philadelphia Passes Ban on Cashless Stores; Amazon Go Plans Said to Be in Jeopardy

Uvaman2

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You're saying that it takes choice away from the corporation, not the customer. The comment I responded to pertained to giving more choice to the customer:

"How about BAD, we don't want municipalities telling us how we are allowed to spend our money and in what form."




In both cases, there is a choice being taken from a group so that another group has an additional choice. You're arguing in favour of reducing the options people have of how and where to spend their money in favour of a corporation having the choice to refuse to accept certain payment types. I'm saying that means reduced choice for people concerning how and where they can spend their money.

Which trade-off is more important?:

- corporation gets to choose to not accept cash, people with cash lose freedom to spend their money how they wish.

- corporation loses the option to not accept cash, people with cash preserve their freedom to spend their money how they wish.


I can't imagine why you'd argue for customers to lose choice and access in favour of a corporation being able to take away customers' choice and access, unless you owned the corporation (and were a bit of a prick to your customers).
People would, because they are trained to see and advocate for government giving more power to corporations. The power to do, and the power to not do. So many are so well trained that they think that granting the power to not do to already rich institutions is some kind of rebel yell for freedom.
 

alxlwson

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I know what Phily is trying to do but it's the wrong approach.

What Philly needs to do it have a way for the who do not have a bank account to have one - force the banks to give anyone that asks for it a bank accounts and a debit card. Money gets deposited and debit card can be used. No money? Debit card won't work. With everything electronic in the banks already it's not like it costs the banks anything.


Something like this already exists- prepaid debit cards that can be purchased at literally every store.
 

Geef

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Did they consider that people without bank accounts can goto the thousand other stores instead of going into that store? Its not the only one that would be there.
 

joobjoob

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Don't just ask what will our "betters" do with this control in circa current year. Ask how could some future asshole abuse this power and how could your kids and grandkids push back? I assure there are machivellians architects who have.

Buy too many twinkies? Social credit score dropped. Refused for surgeries. Or just "purchase declined" for "at risk individuals" you know for the children.
 

joobjoob

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I switched back to cash over a year ago and have loved it. No more worrying if the clueless person swiped the card 3 times charged you 3 times. Or if the food server decided to add a some extra tip onto your bill. Or if the clearing house that store uses has hugely unsecured data and now your bank info is on a Russian website for sale at $0.75.

That's to say nothing of common cash discounts I almost always get from small business. That 4% off a 1k$ car repair made me quite happy. Most Dr's give very large cash discounts. They are very happy to get 100$ today then submit a 200$ bill to insurance who pays 100 but it costs them 30-50$ worth of labor to succesfully collect payment 3 months later.
 

The Mad Atheist

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Walmart Bluebird card is free (request one online), free to re/load (at Walmart), and fee free. IIRC
 

alxlwson

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Yeah, but they charge you like $6 for the card or something, and you can't reload it so you're paying $106 for every $100 you spend


I have an American Express Serve card that I use for when traveling. It's $6 a month, I can load it with cash at Wal-Mart, take pictures of checks, direct deposit, etc.. It also has a fairly decent cash back perk.

Don't make excuses for people that refuse to help themselves.
 
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Overpriced stuff for people with loads of disposable income, same kind of store. I don't know who decided that people living on the poverty line need someone to go to bat to make sure they can spend those wheelbarrows of cash they have on expensive salads when you can get a Rotisserie chicken for 5 bucks and a 6 pack of lettuce and feed the entire extended family the same exact chicken salads for a couple days.

maybe read the post i was talking about?
last time i checked you couldnt get a rotisserie chicken at an apple store.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Want to get rid of pennies for more useful coins.


I'd be happier if we got rid of coins all together.

If we have to keep them, we could make it more efficient though, by getting rid of the quarter, nickel and penny, and just keeping dimes. A nice 10 base system. Maybe even replace the quarter with a new 20 cent coin if we feel the need to have a larger denomination coin than the dime.
 
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Uh, Philadelphia did the opposite of telling people how they can spend their money and in what form: They ensured that people will be able to spend their money anywhere in the city and in any form. A no-cash store would be dictating how people are allowed to spend their money and in what form.

You're literally advocating for telling people how they are allowed to spend their money and in what form, while pretending to be angry about the idea of telling people how they're allowed to spend their money and in what form.

If you're against telling people how they may spend their money and in what form, you ought to be supportive of Philadelphia's decision.

So I guess they banned cash only establishments in the past. I must have clearly missed that in the news.
 

Laowai

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Yet only to guarantee options for its citizens, hence increase freedom....
I can't imagine why you'd argue for customers to lose choice and access in favour of a corporation being able to take away customers' choice and access, unless you owned the corporation (and were a bit of a prick to your customers).
And here is the problem that some people fail to see.

Your rights stop where mine start.
You have the right to want to pay for goods/services in any form of currency or barter if you like. That is YOUR right. You should not have the right to force an individual or business to accept YOUR choice of payment because the person you're trying to enter into a transaction with has the right to accept only what he wants to accept. Choice is great! Force is not.
 

Arcygenical

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I switched back to cash over a year ago and have loved it. No more worrying if the clueless person swiped the card 3 times charged you 3 times. Or if the food server decided to add a some extra tip onto your bill. Or if the clearing house that store uses has hugely unsecured data and now your bank info is on a Russian website for sale at $0.75.

That's to say nothing of common cash discounts I almost always get from small business. That 4% off a 1k$ car repair made me quite happy. Most Dr's give very large cash discounts. They are very happy to get 100$ today then submit a 200$ bill to insurance who pays 100 but it costs them 30-50$ worth of labor to succesfully collect payment 3 months later.


Where do you live that you don't have wireless POS systems for food sales (that let you select tips) or even allow anyone else to swipe your card?
 

NeoNemesis

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Very informative , thank you.

I still think it's beyond stupid to have a store that doesn't accept cash. Why limit your customer base? You want to sell to everyone you can. Anyways, NOT accepting the form of payment that comes with ZERO processing fees seems stupid.

There are a lot of people that ONLY use cash, and not all of them are drug dealers. There are a lot of old people, immigrants, and conspiracy theorists that will only use cash.

I think Amazon Stock is overvalued in general, and short sellers must be happy to hear about these moronic cashless stores

It has to do with speed and man power.

In a cashless store you need maybe 1 or 2 people supervising a dozen or so checkout kiosks versus paying 12 people $X.XX an hour to scan bar codes.
 

DukenukemX

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Seriously? What the hell does "amok" really mean?
giphy.gif

How is it in your world apparently companies are all powerful gods with more power than government or even their customers?
Cause historically they have and they used the government as a tool. For example do you really think we went to Iraq for weapons of mass destruction and not for oil? Oil that was given to companies.


I remember all the consternation around Walmart taking out small businesses. And now Walmart is on the run from Amazon and the like. Yet despite Amazon some retailers like BestBuy (?!?) have figured how to remain relevant.
I don't know how BestBuy is still in business but anyway. Some recent examples are like the ram industry price fixing. Walmarts biggest offense is how they abuse the welfare system so their under paid employee's get paid through tax dollars. You don't want to give companies any leverage.


Don't think this is significant? Ponder the miracle that is the ubiquitous pencil: https://pencils.com/economics-of-pencil-making-2/

The market created that, not government or some egghead central planning. That people don't get shouted off the stage for being so utterly ridiculous in supporting government intervention in crap like the subject of the original article really is shameful in how ignorant as Americans we really have become.
Something I'm pissed about that I want government intervention is the useless cable box. It eats more electricity than a refrigerator and costs a monthly fee. All major cable providers now have apps on phones and on PC that would work as a replacement if the image quality wasn't shit and they didn't limit the app to tablets and phones and the Windows app to laptop screens. No amount of cord cutting is changing their mind and we're wasting electricity to keep this business practice afloat.

It's nice when companies create something but that's what they should be doing. It's when they're forcing the consumer to use outdated technology to keep their business model working that's problematic. You know, like using a pencil and paper instead of email.
 

Nanogrip

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Well DUH! How are you supposed to buy your things without CA$H? Ban all of them!
 

kinjo

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How about BAD, we don't want municipalities telling us how we are allowed to spend our money and in what form. Next thing they will do is ban cars that cost more than $30K because the poor who live in the city can't afford them! Let's artificially limit society to the lowest common denominator so no one feels bad. Excuse me while I go puke! Just another example of how extremist liberals are just as bad as the extremist conservatives!

It's not about limiting us to the lowest common denominator, it's about protecting people without access to bank accounts and credit from a potential world where despite having money they are unable to use it to pay for basic necessities. If cashless stores become the norm combined with the fact that banks now frequently and increasingly require a decent credit score and/or a large opening balance just to open/maintain a basic checking account, it will essentially mean that the people who are poor will not be able to buy things they need to survive like food, water, gasoline etc. This law is not some socialist plot to punish the wealthy it's about protecting the vulnerable from a world that wants to discard them; and about stopping a world where poverty is de facto illegal.


Maybe think things through a bit and get outside your fox news I masturbate to audio books of Arthur Laffer reading Atlas Shrugged bubble once in a while.
 

Uvaman2

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And here is the problem that some people fail to see.

Your rights stop where mine start.
You have the right to want to pay for goods/services in any form of currency or barter if you like. That is YOUR right. You should not have the right to force an individual or business to accept YOUR choice of payment because the person you're trying to enter into a transaction with has the right to accept only what he wants to accept. Choice is great! Force is not.
Wtf ' businesses are constructs of society.. they don't have human rights or any such thing. Operating one is a privilege.
What a weird amalgamation of stuff you post man.
 

kinjo

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I have an American Express Serve card that I use for when traveling. It's $6 a month, I can load it with cash at Wal-Mart, take pictures of checks, direct deposit, etc.. It also has a fairly decent cash back perk.

Don't make excuses for people that refuse to help themselves.

Take pictures... with the expensive smart phone you own. reload at the walmart that you 1. have in your area (not everyone does) and 2. you can easily drive to with a car you are fortunate enough to be able to afford. Furthermore it costs money to load the card and it may be convenient to use while traveling but try using as your only financial instrument when you live on $1000 a month, when loading $20 to buy groceries means paying 10% ($2.00) (520% apr if you have to do that once a week) .
 

Laowai

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Wtf ' businesses are constructs of society.. they don't have human rights or any such thing. Operating one is a privilege.
What a weird amalgamation of stuff you post man.
Well, assuming you're a US citizen, corporations have about the same legal rights as you or I. As to calling operating a business a privilege, I won't disagree. I will only point out that damn near everything in the US is a privilege as all can be taken away/limited by the force of gov't.
 

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Laowai

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Take pictures... with the expensive smart phone you own. reload at the walmart that you 1. have in your area (not everyone does) and 2. you can easily drive to with a car you are fortunate enough to be able to afford. Furthermore it costs money to load the card and it may be convenient to use while traveling but try using as your only financial instrument when you live on $1000 a month, when loading $20 to buy groceries means paying 10% ($2.00) (520% apr if you have to do that once a week) .
But what's your point?
That it's expensive to be poor? No shit!
Or are you for some reason thinking that poor people in Philly are somehow forced to shop at Amazon Go?
 

kinjo

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But what's your point?
That it's expensive to be poor? No shit!
Or are you for some reason thinking that poor people in Philly are somehow forced to shop at Amazon Go?

I communicated my point pretty clearly if you bothered to read; But you know that already because you're just trolling and have nothing of substance to contribute. Like I told you in the last thread (the one where you put someone else's words in my mouth) enjoy screaming into the wind I don't have time to waste with people who by and large stoop to ad hominem arguments and tired simplifications of nuanced ideas based on a skewed faux American pro corporate wold view. .
 

Laowai

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I communicated my point pretty clearly if you bothered to read; But you know that already because you're just trolling and have nothing of substance to contribute. Like I told you in the last thread (the one where you put someone else's words in my mouth) enjoy screaming into the wind I don't have time to waste with people who by and large stoop to ad hominem arguments and tired simplifications of nuanced ideas based on a skewed faux American pro corporate wold view. .
You don't know what an ad-hom is. Calling you an idiot (or any other name) isn't an ad-hom. Saying your argument is invalid simply because you're an idiot, would be an ad-hom.

Also, feel free to ignore me on these forums (there's a feature for that) instead of making a post to say how you're ignoring me.
 

alxlwson

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Take pictures... with the expensive smart phone you own. reload at the walmart that you 1. have in your area (not everyone does) and 2. you can easily drive to with a car you are fortunate enough to be able to afford. Furthermore it costs money to load the card and it may be convenient to use while traveling but try using as your only financial instrument when you live on $1000 a month, when loading $20 to buy groceries means paying 10% ($2.00) (520% apr if you have to do that once a week) .


Lol. You're too much. The straw grasping here is pathetic and obvious.

You should do some research:
1. Even the lowly "Obama" phones have cameras on them.
2. There is a Walmart, CVS, Dollar General, Family Dollar, Rite-Aid, or Seven-Eleven available to just about everyone in this country.

Also, Serve is free to reload in any method.

I communicated my point pretty clearly if you bothered to read; But you know that already because you're just trolling and have nothing of substance to contribute. Like I told you in the last thread (the one where you put someone else's words in my mouth) enjoy screaming into the wind I don't have time to waste with people who by and large stoop to ad hominem arguments and tired simplifications of nuanced ideas based on a skewed faux American pro corporate wold view. .

No, you didn't. Unless, by clearly, you actually mean a post full of feelings with no research or data.
 

joobjoob

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View attachment 147287

Cause historically they have and they used the government as a tool. For example do you really think we went to Iraq for weapons of mass destruction and not for oil? Oil that was given to companies.



I don't know how BestBuy is still in business but anyway. Some recent examples are like the ram industry price fixing. Walmarts biggest offense is how they abuse the welfare system so their under paid employee's get paid through tax dollars. You don't want to give companies any leverage.



Something I'm pissed about that I want government intervention is the useless cable box. It eats more electricity than a refrigerator and costs a monthly fee. All major cable providers now have apps on phones and on PC that would work as a replacement if the image quality wasn't shit and they didn't limit the app to tablets and phones and the Windows app to laptop screens. No amount of cord cutting is changing their mind and we're wasting electricity to keep this business practice afloat.

It's nice when companies create something but that's what they should be doing. It's when they're forcing the consumer to use outdated technology to keep their business model working that's problematic. You know, like using a pencil and paper instead of email.



Do you really think we went to Iraq for oil and not for because of a certain powerful lobby greater censored project? If not then explain libya.
 

DukenukemX

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Do you really think we went to Iraq for oil and not for because of a certain powerful lobby greater censored project? If not then explain libya.
Was said lobby representing companies? That's my point, a company is using our government to do things, usually bad things.

But what's your point?
That it's expensive to be poor? No shit!
Or are you for some reason thinking that poor people in Philly are somehow forced to shop at Amazon Go?
Should it be like that? Shouldn't the poor get things done cheaper than those with wealth?
And? Are you concerned that vendors who sell items that can only be purchased with cash will stop accepting cash?
If we have to spend cash to spend cash, we fucked up at some point. I say we should have a bank that's represented by the government and not some private business. That way we can use debit cards without costing money, solving the paper money issue.

 

travisty

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And? Are you concerned that vendors who sell items that can only be purchased with cash will stop accepting cash?

My original post discussed how to handle a world w/o physical cash. You're bringing physical cash back in.
 

Laowai

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Should it be like that? Shouldn't the poor get things done cheaper than those with wealth?
Well, we get into dangerous territory when we use the word *should* imo.
My emotional response is....no, it shouldn't be like that.
My rational response is.....of course it's the case, and for a myraid of reasons.
 
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alxlwson

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Was said lobby representing companies? That's my point, a company is using our government to do things, usually bad things.


Should it be like that? Shouldn't the poor get things done cheaper than those with wealth?

If we have to spend cash to spend cash, we fucked up at some point. I say we should have a bank that's represented by the government and not some private business. That way we can use debit cards without costing money, solving the paper money issue.




That's what we need to do! Burden the tax payers with even more debt from people who can't manage their finances.
Know why people with garbage credit can't get bank accounts? It's because they aren't a profit generator for the bank, and more than likely will cost the bank money. I thought everyone understood that banks provide a "free" service by using the money in your bank account to fund profit generating activities, such as mortgages and auto loans. If you don't have much balance, and are constantly over drafting and then peace out without paying your debt, then that "free" service is now costing a lot of money
 

pclov3r

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Supporters of the new law said it was needed to protect low-income Philadelphians from discrimination.

Exactly how does this change that situation? You've just caused more discrimination blaming this group of people saying your the reason why things can't advance and the reason this is being shut down. Also that you need to treat this group differently then others Also it doesn't do shit to change if you can ACTUALLY afford the crap.

If your in this group of people you should actually be pissed you've just be singed out and a victim that needs special rights and to be protected.

I guess somehow cash is somehow worth more vs debit cards or a credit card you pay off...

Ontop of it all they love regulation so they should actually be jumping for joy since credit only transactions result in records that you can pull in a investigation vs cash only that you can hide under the table and not pay taxes on....
 
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singe_101

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I still think it's beyond stupid to have a store that doesn't accept cash. Why limit your customer base? You want to sell to everyone you can. Anyways, NOT accepting the form of payment that comes with ZERO processing fees seems stupid.

There are a lot of people that ONLY use cash, and not all of them are drug dealers. There are a lot of old people, immigrants, and conspiracy theorists that will only use cash.

Could be data tied to the credit card, how fast the line moves, and employees who also touch food never touch cash and don't need to take gloves off over and over (and people swipe their cards in an iPad or use their phones), maybe they want customers to use their app.

If the place closes at 2:00 or 2:30 after lunch and hourly employees are cleaning up near the end they might really dismiss everyone exactly at 2 and there's no cash to deal with.

People with cards might spend more per visit or per hour.
 
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