*Official* Norco data storage products thread

Metaluna said:
How does the 4020 know when a drive is bad? Is there some standard pin on the SATA interface that tells the backplane which LED to light up?

I always thought this was something the controller had to be involved in, possibly using SGPIO pins, but it would be great if I'm wrong.
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I am not an engineer, just saying what happened to me.
 
odditory said:
Are you sure you're not placing the 120mm bracket too close to the backplane? There are two sets of holes that you can use - one that puts the bracket closer to the backplane, and one that's about an inch or two further away. You want to use the set of holes that place the bracket further away, then the cables won't have to bend nearly as much. I guess its high time I posted pics of how I mounted this thing, and some tricks to re-using the fanboard from the old 80mm bracket.
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Doing installs this weekend (heading to the store in a few minutes to get new fans for the two brackets). I'll just do a post on how to do this so don't worry about it.
 
The HDDs do not and can not signal this direct to a backplane. The controller (HBA) would have to read the SMART data in each drive and then signal the backplane via a different interface what LED to turn on. Most smart backplanes use SGPIO (a four wire serial type signaling interface) some use I2C (a two wire bi-directional communication interface). The backplane requires a controller chip or microprocessor to interpret the signaling (SGPIO or I2C) from the HBA to turn a particular LED on (or blink). There are international standards for the interfaces as well as blink patterns to indicate different states.
Most smart backplanes use 3 colors (usually presented to the user via two visible indicators per HDD) to indicate what state a HDD is in.
I am not too familiar with the Norco backplanes but I can speak for the Chenbro backplane in my chassis. My chassis backplanes use a blue LED to indicate presence/power and a second LED to indicate activity (green) and fault (red). The controller lets me locate a HDD or chassis by blinking the red LEDs. To locate a HDD it blinks a single HDD LED in red, to locate an entire chassis, all HDD LEDs belonging to the chassis blink red at the same time.

Hope this helps ;)
 
Treadstone, the Norco cases do not have a SGPIO or I2C interface, at least that I am aware of. The Norco backplanes do however have LED's for power and activity, at a minimum. My case, a newer revision 4020, has a blue indicator for presence/power, and a green indicator for activity. I'm not sure if the green indicator is bi-color or not though. I haven't had a drive in a hot swap bay fail yet, and the locate function of my LSI 1068E does not seem to work. Any ideas on how the LED's might be driven in the absense on SGPIO or I2C?
 
@epimetheus: I do know from pictures someone posted (sorry I forgot who posted them) a while back of the new 4224 backplanes, that the backplanes have the necessary footprints for the circuitry required to do this, however the parts were not populated!
That's why I was a bit surprised when nitrobase24 posted that his 4020 backplanes/chassis actually support that feature! Maybe back then Norco actually did have the parts on those backplanes but removed them in later production runs to cut costs?
In any case, you would only be able to get the red fail LED to work if you had a controller chip or microcontroller on the backplane. I think that Norco either used one of the AMI chips or they used their own implementation by using a programmable microcontroller!?!
I do know that the new 4224 chassis has bi-color (green/red) LEDs for the activity/fail indicator, just the control circuitry is missing to drive the red LED!
 
epimetheus said:
Treadstone, the Norco cases do not have a SGPIO or I2C interface, at least that I am aware of. The Norco backplanes do however have LED's for power and activity, at a minimum. My case, a newer revision 4020, has a blue indicator for presence/power, and a green indicator for activity. I'm not sure if the green indicator is bi-color or not though. I haven't had a drive in a hot swap bay fail yet, and the locate function of my LSI 1068E does not seem to work. Any ideas on how the LED's might be driven in the absense on SGPIO or I2C?
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To add another datapoint: I have an older revision 4220, and it uses green for power and blue for activity. I did have a drive fail in this chassis not too long ago and IIRC there was no visible indication on the LEDs. I believe at the time the drive was connected to a Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8 (Marvell-based) controller running under Server 2008 R2.
 
Metaluna said:
To add another datapoint: I have an older revision 4220, and it uses green for power and blue for activity. I did have a drive fail in this chassis not too long ago and IIRC there was no visible indication on the LEDs. I believe at the time the drive was connected to a Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8 (Marvell-based) controller running under Server 2008 R2.
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It's very possible that I've reversed my colors. Also, the original 4020's had red and green LED's I thought.
 
treadstone said:
@epimetheus: I do know from pictures someone posted (sorry I forgot who posted them) a while back of the new 4224 backplanes, that the backplanes have the necessary footprints for the circuitry required to do this, however the parts were not populated!
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There are some pics in post #310:

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1036520185&postcount=310

Clearly shows an unpopulated chip of some kind with traces running to the white shrouded I2C connector, as well as what looks like an 8-pin header (also unpopulated). Maybe that's for SGPIO. You can tell the white connector is I2C because the pins are labeled SCL and SCA on the board.
 
So what it boils down to is if you loose a drive you need to pull drives at random until you find the culprit? Sounds pretty unsophisticated.
 
@Metaluna: The missing part in the second picture from the link you posted is most likely the controller chip to interpret the SGPIO and or I2C signals.
The correct terminology for the I2C bus signals are SCL (Serial CLock, Master to Slave, open-collector/drain) and SDA (Serial DAta, bi-directional, open-collector/drain).
The SFF-8087 connector includes and the cables should (but sometimes don't) the necessary SGPIO connections between the HBA and backplane. Most (good quality) type RAID/HBA controllers usually support or at least have the circuitry on board to support SGPIO signaling, but it also depends on if the firmware/software of the RAID/HBA controller actually supports signaling via the SGPIO interface!

@S-F: If you wired your chassis in sequence, then it shouldn't be to hard to figure out which one is the bad drive. Most controllers can tell you what drive failed and then it's just a matter of counting :)
For example, most backplanes (e.g. Norco 4020, 4224, etc) support 4 HDDs per backplane, if you wired them from the controller via SFF-8087 cables with port 1 going to backplane 1, port 2 going to backplane 2, etc, then if drive 10 failed, it should be the 2nd drive on the 3rd backplane...
You could always label your HDD/hot-swap-trays, which would make it even easier ;)
 
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S-F said:
So what it boils down to is if you loose a drive you need to pull drives at random until you find the culprit? Sounds pretty unsophisticated.
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Yep, now you know why Norcos cost so much less than the competition ;)

Seriously though, it's not usually that hard if you keep track of your drive bay mapping. Either the controller or the OS will usually give you hints, either by telling you which physical controller channel is faulted, or the logical volume label that disappeared from the array. You can literally just use stick-on paper labels to keep track.
 
S-F said:
So what it boils down to is if you loose a drive you need to pull drives at random until you find the culprit? Sounds pretty unsophisticated.
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If you're lazy and you plugged all your drives in at random and plugged all your miniSAS connectors into your RAID/HBA/Expander at random, then that might be true.

Or you plug things in in sequence and you know right away which slot# corresponds to which drive. If my Areca card's event log tells me "Slot #23" failed, then I know exactly which slot it is on my Norco RPC-4224. Same goes for my SAS2008 based HBA's with drives configured in JBOD. If I pull slot #13, sure enough in Windows Disk Management "Disk #13" is gone. It's also helpful to label your disks with the Drive# when you quick-format in case they get mixed up later.
 
@treadstone - Did you mean 8087?

My 4020 backplanes only have 2 IC's on them, both 74HCT14, which Google tells me is a Hex Inverter with Schmitt trigger output. Not sure what it does though. Also since there is no other connection to the backplane other than power and SATA, I'm assuming the activity LED is driven off the TX/RX lines of the SATA connection itself. Wikipedia tells me that pin 11 of the power connector can be used for staggered spinup, activity indication, etc. Is it possible for a hard drive to output a signal on pin 11 that could be driving the activity LED on the backplane?
 
@epimetheus: thanks for catching that. I have too many reference standards in my head :D
I corrected the SFF-8084 with the correct SFF-8087 reference above!

Also, you are correct about the pin11 of the SATA power connector. This is a dual purpose pin that can be used to control the spin-up behavior of the drive (input) or can be used to control and external LED as an activity indicator (output).
The 74HCT14 hex inverter means that this chip contains 6 individual inverters. The function of an inverter is just what it sounds like, it inverts the signal, if you apply a high on the input you will get a low on the output and vise versa. The Schmitt trigger function is to help improve the edges of a signal by having a defined hysteresis by means of a positive feedback (with a loop gain greater than 1).
Anyway they most likely used these inverters to buffer the LED signals.
 
I ask this question in as a general question before I saw that there was a Norco thread. So I will ask here since I assume that readers own a Norco.

Norco 4220 - Backplane replacement
Well Norco confirmed the the backplane in the RPC-4220 does NOT support I2C, SGPIO, or SES-2.

Does anyone know of a replacement backplane I could us in this box?

Thanks
 
no, there aren't any third party backplanes if thats what you're asking. remember its a $300 case. the backplanes in Norco cases are essentially just dumb/pass-through. the functions you're talking about are more commonly found in much more expensive cases (Supermicro for example), or those with an integrated expander.
 
@hyperion007

Hi,
I just saw the pictures of your Norco 4224 case with 2 x 120mm extraction fan. Is it a new design? I still look at Norco website and only see the specs for a 2 x 80mm extraction fan. I plan to buy this case to replace mine (a modded Supermicro 3U : http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1393939&page=52
My main goal is silence and shame on me, but I just discover the Norco and its backplane system that allow direct wind on the disks... I would have spent less time trying to mod a case ;)

thanks,

Sergio
 
sweloop64 said:
What about the http://galactic.en.alibaba.com/product/257087794-209471877/SAS_SATA_SGPIO_4_Bay_Hot_Swappable_Mini_SAS_Backplane_For_Daohe_X_Case_Chassis_.html?
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thats not really third party since they're sourcing from the same fab as Norco. i know, i have a couple of those same backplanes that i got (from) norco. if they're really SGPIO capable, then i'm not sure why Mike wouldn't have offered one up, unless he just wasn't aware it was SGPIO capable. haven't tested it myself for that function.
 
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odditory said:
thats not really third party since they're sourcing from the same fab as Norco. i know, i have a couple of those same backplanes that i got (from) norco. if they're really SGPIO capable, then i'm not sure why Mike wouldn't have offered one up, unless he just wasn't aware it was SGPIO capable. haven't tested it myself for that function.
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Since the PCB is prepared for it, it sound likely that the fab does provide such backplanes...
Any chance Norco will offer SGPIO backplanes in cases at a little higher price?
Maybe Norco got a batch of, what might have been, the SGPIO backplane due to shortage of "dumb" the backplanes or due to a mistake by the manuf.

epimetheus said:
Does the SGPIO work on those backplanes?
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Would be nice to know, when you have the time please verify.

the_tango said:
I got a reply about buying these - Was told that the product was EOL
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:(
Any word of any new product?
 
sweloop64 said:
Maybe Norco got a batch of, what might have been, the SGPIO backplane due to shortage of "dumb" the backplanes or due to a mistake by the manuf.
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Huh? Not sure what you're asking. I'd suggest contacting Norco directly and see if they still have them in stock.
 
Hi Folks,

I am almost ready to order a NORCO 4224 case but I was searching for some informations regarding the extracction fans...
On a set of pictures in page 18 of this thread, we can see that it is possible to have 2 x 120mm in extraction instead of the 80mm as stated in NORCO website...

Does anyody have informations about it? I am making a low noise server and I definitively prefer this solution ;)

cheers,

sergio
 
The Norco 4224 does not really support 120mm exhaust fans. There is no room for them without covering up expansion slot openings or motherboard openings.

The picture you saw was probably from someone who modified the case to install 120mm exhaust fans. Someone probably drilled some mounting holes for the 120mm fans, and definitely covered some of the other openings with the fans.

I replaced the exhaust fans on my 4224 with lower RPM 80mm fans. I used Silverstone FN81 fans, since they have a decent static pressure rating but are relatively low RPM.

http://www.silverstonetek.com/products/p_spec.php?pno=fn81&area=usa

And they are cheap from newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999343
 
Hi john,

That is what I was thinking, but looking at the pictures (http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1036619532&postcount=342) it does look like a professional made solution...

But yes, you may be right and it is not a commercial setup. I really prefer to have one 120mm exhaust fan than 2 x 80mm. I use PAPST fan and they are great, but the 120mm are more efficient!

thanks,

Sergio
 
I used the fan controllers that odditory mentioned earlier in the thread with the stock fans and they are working quite well. The inside fans don't make too much noise once the cover is on.
 
> it does look like a professional made solution

thanks, but its just a sheet of AL folded over as seen on page 8 of this thread. For the least noise, why not skip the extraction fans entirely, the graph on page 9 shows one can keep 10 black drives under 50° (drive limit is 60°) with just three 120mm mid plane fans. Green drives would be 5° less.
 
Hello all.. thnx for the gr8 forum.. been reading this place for a long time and getting tips for the future kind of hardwares what would suite for my needs..

But now i need to make a question... i am looking for a place in europe from where i can get norcos 4224 case...

why this case? coz it would suite for my needs better than other norcos..

any1 knows? getting it from usa is kinda tricky stuff.. and i am from Finland...

// :D
 
yeah that 1 is one of the problems why i wouldnt like to get it from usa ;D shipping costs like hell.. customs costs even more and there isnt too many places who sends em to Europe.. And it should be a place where i can trust, what has good reviews coz would suck to spend lets say 600 dollarz for "case + shipping" and u aint ever get the product..
 
It's going to be just as expensive if you buy from a reseller in Europe, if not more.
 
o rly? was always thinkin its more expensive ordering from over seas(usa) than europe, dosnt matter what country in europe.. i dont order too much stuff from other countrys so lots of lag knowing these things for 100% !! but asking these things is always good..

I looked and sended email to those xcase peoples like a 1-2 weeks ago and havent got anything back yet.. i think i am gonna send a new msg...

and thnx for the fast replys.. ^^

Edit: And yes Blue Fox u are right.. there is a HUGE price difference.. from usa ipdirect its 399 $ = littlebit under 300 € AND from xcase 418.80 £ what is littlebit under 500 € so there is a huge cap between those prices..

So i think i must call to our customs and send question email to ipdirect does they have any clue about prices what it might cost to send to europe..
 
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Dont forget that usually prices on american webshops are excluded tax. If I'm correct buying stuff online in America is tax-free if you buy from a place that is based in another state that you're in (with some exceptions if I remember correct?).

The £418.80 price from Xcase.co.uk are included the british VAT, so if you buy from them to have it shipped to Finland you're only gonna pay £349 for the case, and then add the 23% VAT you have in Finland, making it a total of £429,27 + shipping.

When I buy stuff online from american webshops, I use a freight forward company to have the goods transported from USA to Norway. The company I use (http://www.jetcarrier.com) only serve Norway, Sweden and Denmark unfortunally, but I'm sure there are similare companies that serve other parts of Europe.
 
I livein the UK. I bought 4 Norco's from a couple of USA sellers. It turned out slightly cheaper than buying from Xcase, which is nuts but I c'est la vie I suppose! I bought them from ebay, the shipping was very competitive, far cheaper than from IPC direct.
 
yeah ebay would be cool..

Okey got email from both.. Xcase got shipping £35.00 + vat.. so around 42 € + vat.. so if i get this thing correct it would be littlebit over 465 £ with all prices in it.. am i right? Not bad if i am right..

465 £ = around 550 € total

from ipcdirect i got email that shipping would cost 165$ (123€)...
and VAT for that would be around 92$(69€) if calculated like 399$ * 0.23

So if i get this right.. from ipcdirect it would cost in $ 399+165+92 = 656$... right? And in euros it would be 298+123+69= 490 €..

What do i miss im hear? sounds too cheap..
 
WestSidaz said:
So if i get this right.. from ipcdirect it would cost in $ 399+165+92 = 656$... right? And in euros it would be 298+123+69= 490 €..

What do i miss im hear? sounds too cheap..
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That would be the correct calculation.
And that shippingcost also would mean airfreight, so you should get the chassis fairly quick too.
 
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