*Official* Norco data storage products thread

Metaluna said:
That's a cool little gadget for sure. It would be super slick if they made one that takes power from a PCIe or PCI slot though. Would save some awkward PSU cable routing.
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You couldn't do both, so you would be limited to one type of slot or the other. It would be quite limiting then unfortunately.
 
It'd be even slicker if Norco modified their 4224 to support two 2.5" either under the lid or inside one or other of the side panels, so that all of the front bays could be used for 3.5" storage. Or even better, have a bay at the rear for it; OS drives aren't likely to be pulled very often.

That VIZO gadget looks cute though...
 
I like that gadget, I'm going to do new build based on the 24 bay norco, I think I'm gonna use those for os drives
 
Yeah the VIZO is a nice bracket for a 2.5" HDD, but I usually just mount my O/S drives to the sidewall next to the power supply at least in my Norco cases. similar to this photo from another thread. Unlike the photo though I only use 2.5" drives for the O/S, I also don't bother with RAID1/mirroring of the O/S drive because I just keep it imaged (KISS). A few minutes of downtime restoring to another drive isn't a big deal in a home environment.

4220.jpg
 
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farscapesg1 said:
How do you know if you have the new model of the 4220? I bought one about a month ago which has the optical drive and two mounting plates for internal 2.5" drives.
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The newer 4220 models look like the image on the left, the only version of 4220 that the 120mm fan bracket from Norco is compatible with. Previous model 4220 cases require the 120mm fan bracket from cavediver. Check with him for availability.

PLEASE NOTE: I'm of the belief that the 120mm fan issue is somewhat overblown if you'll pardon the expression, that some people may be misled into thinking that 80mm fans aren't adequate in these Norco cases. Example, I have two of cavediver's 120mm brackets but only ever bothered to install one of them in my RPC-4220's, for comparison sake. The reality is the 80mm Masscool's I swapped with the stock fans have been perfectly adequate in cooling 20 x Hitachi 2Tb 7200RPM drives without much more noise than the identical system with the 120mm fans. Where you locate your server will determine how much difference this margin in noise makes to you (garage vs. living room for example). That said, 120mm fans *will* give you the quietest system possible, coupled with the right fans.

rpc-4220s.jpg
 
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BTW if anyone has the previous 4220 and needs a 120mm fan bracket. I have an extra one of Cavedivers that i didnt end up using that i will sell cheap cause i have no need for it any longer.
 
Here are some FAN recommendations for Norco cases, since I get asked about this fairly often. I'm not saying these are the greatest fans, but they're what I run in my server cases and systems without issue.

80mm: Masscool, .99 each in quantities of 8+. I've swapped them with the factory 80mm's in my Norco 4020 and 4220 cases. Again, maybe not the best fan but cheap and relatively quiet and running for years trouble-free. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835150007

120mm: Coolermaster R4-C2R-20AC-GP, $10. They push a lot of air for being virtually silent, they don't look bad in a case either. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103061.

120mm: Scythe 1600RPM Slipstream, $9. Great fans, slightly noisier than the CM's. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185059

Here are some pics with the Coolermaster 120mm's from a previous post, installed in a RPC-4220 w/ cavediver's bracket.

 
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I will second the recommendation for the Scythe Slipstream 1600. I have them in mine.

I will also add the 80mm Panaflows for the rear. They are great and quiet.
 
But how about cooling? No matter how you slice it you are going to have a noisy PC with 20 drives in it. Even if you used no fans at all, even for the CPU. Do the 120 mm fans keep the drives any cooler? Mine is going to go into the basement so I could not care any less about the noise. I have moved all of my fans to the basement. The pump, fans and the huge bank of radiators I have for my desktop are all in the basement. The loudest part of my desktop (in the room it's in) is the two HDD's and the sound of the water flowing through the blocks.
 
For something like the Norco 4020 that has 10 Molex connector's how do you power all of them with a normal PSU? My PSU only has 6 molex connectors....Would i need to use a SATA-Molex adapter?

Also on the Norco 4020 each Molex connector powers two drives?
 
> Scythe 1600RPM Slipstream [...] slightly noisier than the CM's

and it pushes more air... the 1200rpm Slipstream would be a better match for the CM.

I have a 1200rpm and 1600rpm Slipstream on the table next to me now. The 1200rpm model is inaudible but I can hear the 1600rpm model ever so slightly. I reduced the voltage on the 1600rpm fan to the same inaudible point, and my unscientific "feeling" is the 1200rpm fan is moving more air. Scythe also offers 1900rpm 800rpm 500rpm and PWM models for a very flexible line:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=Property&N=2010110573&SrchInDesc=SY1225SL12*
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article832-page3.html
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1040-page3.html

but the question is, do we want cfm, or deltaP? once cavitation starts, the cfm rating is pointless.
 
AMD_Gamer said:
why does it have 2 then? in case one fails?
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because apparently there's a way to mount dual redundant power supplies inside the case, at least according to the Norco rep. i haven't bothered to figure out how the second PSU is supposed to mount though, since in the home environment a few minutes of downtime swapping a blown PSU isn't exactly a show stopper. In my RPC-4224 review I took a few photos of the mounting brackets for a second PSU.

Those power connectors on the backplane board aren't any kind of dual path anyway, the traces on the backplane board show them connected to one another.
 
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odditory said:
Yeah the VIZO is a nice bracket for a 2.5" HDD, but I usually just mount my O/S drives to the sidewall next to the power supply at least in my Norco cases. similar to this photo from another thread. Unlike the photo though I only use 2.5" drives for the O/S, I also don't bother with RAID1/mirroring of the O/S drive because I just keep it imaged (KISS). A few minutes of downtime restoring to another drive isn't a big deal in a home environment.

http://h.imagehost.org/0138/4220.jpg[img][/QUOTE]
how do you mount a drive to the side like that?
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Or you can drill 4 holes through your drive. :eek:
Or use superglue! :confused:
Seriously, for SSDs some people use self-adhesive velcro.
 
The 4 center fan aren't too loud, sort of like the computer you had 4 years ago. Moving from 12v to 6.3v takes the edge off, but still noticeable. They won't spin below 5v. But boy, the two fans in the back, are nuts! In fact you can feel the gyro forces while you hold them. Dragging them down to 6.1v helps alot, but even then, they are still very noticeable and won't spin lower than 4.4v. The 1600rpm Scythe Slipstream is silent at 7.8v like the 1200rpm @ 12v.




The back planes are nice. The strain relief on power and sas connectors are soldered a second time after the wave bath.




The pleasant surprise was that one can shut off the air on unoccupied bays and mounting holes for 2.5" disks.



wonder what's going to happen next?

 
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@picker:

A correction on the backplanes: those boards are not wave soldered, they are only reflow soldered for the surface mount components and any through hole parts are than hand soldered. It's very difficult to wave solder boards that have parts on both sides of the board. It is possible, but you need to take this into consideration when you design a board and I can tell you that those backplanes are NOT wave soldered :)
They also used no-clean flux type solder for the hand soldering job which I am not a big fan off... It always looks messy and depending on the circuitry, can cause unexpected issues down the road...Not that it matters for the parts they soldered in this application though.

On to the fans, I see you are replacing the fans with quieter ones. before you make this permanent, I have a few suggestions for you that you should try.

1) put the original fans into your system, populate all drive bays with your HDDs (or as many drives as you have). close up the enclosure and run a stress test on all your drives (e.g. creating a RAID array should suffice for this test). Monitor the drive temeratures and the CPU temperature and maybe even the MB temperature if it is available. Also make a note of the ambient temperature.

2) replace the original fans with your quiet fans and repeat the same test again.

This should give you a good idea if your new fans are up to the task of keeping the drive temperatures low enough. The lower you can keep the drives temperatures during peak load, the longer they should last you!

These quiet fans will not be able to push as much air through the enclosure compared to those delta fans. There is a reason they were put in there in the first place :)

The new 24 bay enclosure I think has an even smaller overall air intake surface compared to the older 20 bay enclosure and hence if you replace the factory fans with fans that are not as obnoxious, you are reducing the air pressure and hence the air volume that the fans can pull through the drive trays!

Just something to keep in mind!
 
treadstone's proposal is the best for the community, but selfishly this is a replacement for a tri 5in1 disk theory that I was never happy with. My goal is to improve on it, not the the stock 4224.



But as a gesture we could do a baseline disk temp graph on the old box doing a scrub and see how that compares to the modified 4224. In all cases 120mm fans should offer more CFMs, we just need to balance how much wattage we pump into the fans :)

the marketing theory is
4 * 35.3 CFM @ 31 dB(A) (141.2) is less then 3 * 68.54 CFM @ 24 dB(A) (205.6)
and
2 * 57.2 CFM @ 44.5 dB(A) (114.4) compared to 2 * 88.11 CFM @ 33.00 dB(A) (176.22)

yea, two fans in the back... but to treadstone's point.. lets measure it because we realy don't know the effect on deltaP.



 
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@picker:

those numbers are nice, but since they are free air measurements, they don't mean that much once you drop them into an enclosure that is almost completely closed up. The resistance these fans face in the 4224 is fairly high since there are no other intake holes other than through the drive trays and once drives are mounted in them, there is VERY little space left...

I went through the entire exercise with my enclosure. After I bought quiet fans and replaced all 12 fans and ran a test on the RAID system (2 x 24 drive RAID 6 arrays, 48 drives total), I noticed that each drive temperature went up to way over 40degC (IIRC the ambient was around 23degC). So I put the original EXTREMELY noisy fans back in and the drive temperatures stayed below 30degC (same conditions and test). The noisy fans are strong enough to pull a sheet of paper against the drive trays and hold it there! The quiet fans were not! The specs looked good on paper, but they don't have graphs you can see what the static pressure is at different loads.

The quiet fans might be sufficient if you only run a few disks at a time but they might not be sufficient if you run a RAID array where all drives are active at the same time! All I am saying or trying to make people aware of is that they should check that the fans they are putting into their enclosure are up to the task of keeping the drives cool enough.

You can easily pull up the datasheets on the Delta fans and see how much air they can push at different conditions. Most of those cheap fans don't even have datasheets... So be careful what you put your trust and your data into!!!

BTW: nice job on the bracket!
 
As treadstone pointed out, the static pressure rating of the fans in enclosures like this are often times more important than the CFM ratings.

The CFM ratings are recorded in free air with no restrictions, once you add restrictions, the CFM can degrade significantly. There are several factors in static pressure encompassing blade geometries, blade depths, blade velocity, etc. There are a wide variety of static pressure optimized fans in the 80 and 92mm form factors but few in the 120mm form factor and very few of the 120mm ones have any regard for noise.

For the 4224, you are going to want static pressure optimized fans in the realm of 1500+ rpm as a minimum for a 120mm fan. The Delta used on the 80mm fan bracket are rated at 4mm of static pressure. something like the Notua P12 (pressure optimized design at 1300 rpm) is rated at 1.7mm. The scythe fans you seem to be planning to use look like they will have fairly low static pressure capabilities.
 
We agree deltaP is a big deal in a restrictive case like the 4224. Most high deltaP fans are centrifugal or operate fully turbulent. Once cavitation starts, the noise goes out of control. My goal is to keep the air attached via large holes. Might be imposable, we will see.

It takes 7h32m to scrub my two 4+1 vdevs.

old.gif


So the old case's baseline looks like a 3° rise with up to a 6° delta and 48° max (well below WDC's published operating limit of 60°) as reported by smart.

Code: 
Device    Serial        Vendor   Model             Rev  Temperature     
------    ------        ------   -----             ---- -----------     
c7t0d0p0  WMATV6936555  ATA      WDC WD1001FALS-0  0K05 43 C (109 F)
c7t1d0p0  WMATV6770119  ATA      WDC WD1001FALS-0  0K05 42 C (107 F)
c7t2d0p0  WMATV6963118  ATA      WDC WD1001FALS-0  0K05 43 C (109 F)
c7t4d0p0  WMATV6790152  ATA      WDC WD1001FALS-0  0K05 43 C (109 F)
c7t5d0p0  WMATV6789810  ATA      WDC WD1001FALS-0  0K05 43 C (109 F)
c8t0d0p0  WMATV0086641  ATA      WDC WD1001FALS-0  0K05 44 C (111 F)
c8t1d0p0  WMATV0109098  ATA      WDC WD1001FALS-0  0K05 43 C (109 F)
c8t2d0p0  WMATV0086430  ATA      WDC WD1001FALS-0  0K05 45 C (113 F)
c8t4d0p0  WMATV0078325  ATA      WDC WD1001FALS-0  0K05 43 C (109 F)
c8t5d0p0  WMATV0075456  ATA      WDC WD1001FALS-0  0K05 44 C (111 F)
c9t1d0p0  B41BT4D83VBC  ATA      HDT722525DLA380   A91A 255 C (491 F)
c9t2d0p0  WCAMR2404913  ATA      WDC WD3200JD-00K  5J08 0 C (32 F)
 
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@picker: great work with the graph!
Just to clarify, this is with the factory (original) fans?
Also, do you know what your ambient is/was during this test?

BTW: Those were the kind of drive temperatures I was seeing with the quiet (replacement) fans in my enclosure. I should have done some graphs too... oh well

Keep us posted...
 
Forgive my ignorance but what do the different colors/lines represent?
Secondly how did you record temps over a period of time.
I would like to do this on my norco, so any help would be appreciated.
 
nitrobass24 said:
Forgive my ignorance but what do the different colors/lines represent?
Secondly how did you record temps over a period of time.
I would like to do this on my norco, so any help would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
I would guess each line represents one hdd.
I would guess he pulled the temps from S.M.A.R.T...
 
@nitrobass24: From the looks of it, picker has 10 different drives in the graph. There is a free and very useful tool to do all kinds of graphs. I'll have to look it up again as I don't remember what it is called right now. I'll post the info later.
 
@picker: are you going to make your own 120mm midplane fan bracket, or wait a few weeks for the one from Norco?
 
My 4224 just arrived, pretty well packed (UPS delivered it, outer box was beat to hell and the inner box looked much worse than the fedex box with the system components in it; if you can't tell I hate the local UPS). First impressions on the drive caddies is that they are cheap, but hopefully work.

As for the fans, 120mm fans are a much more agreeable pitch while the 80mm's are screamers (though better than 40/60mm fans). If I have to, I've got some 120mm SanyoDenki's that move >100CFM each that I'll be happier with, and take the read fans out completely.


EDIT Opened the case after dinner and found three out of the four 80mm fans loose between the fan board and backplanes. The hotswap design for these fans is rather sloppy, there is a lot of play and I'm now worried about rattling.
 
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well novadude the 120mm bracket should be shipping in a few weeks if the 80mm isn't going to work out for you. FWIW I don't find any rattling with my 80mm bracket (Masscool 80mm's swapped for stock fans).
 
@novadude: you could always put a really small piece of foam between the hotswap cage and the fan to add a little pressure and keep if from potentially making any unwanted noises!
 
Did anybody elses 4224 come with screws for attaching hard drives to caddies?
One of my 80mm fans was also broken.
 
there should've been two bags of screws - one with screws for motherboard mounting with some extra standoffs, and the other bag with just screws for the HDD caddies. if its missing or if you need extra then Norco will usually send them out free.
 
I've had it running for about 24 hours now (memtest overnight, then 8 hours of OCCT) and am loading the data onto it now. This little X8SIL-F+x3440 running nexenta is taking data on at over 110MB/s (bit surprising, considering it's hopping through an HP switch and DIR655 router).
Haven't noticed any rattling, even with the rear fans unplugged so atleast that's not a problem.
Next order of business will be to figure out a way to swap out the rear fans and not over work those mid fans in the process (next to no air flow from the vents in the rear with the rear fans off).
 
@novadude: If you don't 'feel' any air coming out of the enclosure in the back where the two fans (those that you disconnected) are, then that would also mean there is no air going into the enclosure at the front. Which also means there is no air movement over the drives and hence they are not getting cooled!
In other words, this may spell disaster in the long term for your HDDs! Are you running them in a RAID configuration?
 
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