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Discussion in 'nVidia Flavor' started by spine, Feb 13, 2018.
Turing for mining and Ampere for gaming?
Bet Turing is what comes after Volta, and we'll only see Pascal-reworked Ampere ship in 2018. Although... given the name... Turing really sounds like a datacenter / AI oriented chip. But hey... what's in a name?
If 20xx series Ampere in late Q1 / early Q2 is a thing, we won't see Volta in a big way on the desktop until late Q3 / early Q4 at the soonest, and even then only probably only has a very limited release TitanV until 2019 hits.
If Ampere isn't a thing (I've not seen that confirmed anywhere, but I've also been stuck at work for a bit), good odds on Volta finally coming out in that April time frame then. I honestly don't think anything is preventing nVidia from releasing Volta, other than they don't really have to, and if they can get another cycle out of Pascal and still stay safely ahead of the competition, then why not? That allows them to put R&D towards those other items, such as AI, vehicles, SoCs, etc. Also means that ~if~ the competition ever catches up, they could be caught with their pants around their ankles and a risk falling a generation behind again (ala Tesla 200 / Fermi days)
Ampere/Turing in April is nothing but a gaming Volta if anything.
I have the same feeling.
I think this is actually just about the fact that no roadmap exists beyond Volta. So I would expect in March/April to see a new roadmap with 'Turing' on it, somewhere...
My guess is ampere for gaming and turing for mining/cryptocurrency. Turing was working on cryptography during the war...
That's my guess.
Maybe Nvidia sees a proper product for that market and create separate product lines. one for gamers and one for miners.
Few miners are going to buy mining only cards as the resale value will be sub-par as compared to a full game card.
If they made a card with no video out ports, "enough" cooling, and custom optimized firmware - they could likely sell it for just a few $$$ less than the MSRP on regular gaming cards, but would cost a good deal less on the manufacturing side. Miners ~would~ buy those up first, just because they are a tiny bit cheaper and that would show a better ROI. Add in the convenience that the firmware is setup out of the box for mining, possibly in available in a bulk 6-pack or something, and it's sold.
I don't think many miners are rationally thinking about ROI right now with the prices they are paying for some of these GPUs. I seriously doubt that many (apart from the obviously very intelligent and informed mining population of this forum) are even considering resale value into the equation.
The problem is, even if you were to make a cheaper mining-only SKU... the miners would buy all those up, and then go right back to buying up the gaming SKUs. The bottleneck isn't the GPU manufacturer right now... it's on the RAM side of the house, and it's a big problem for more than just the GPU sector.
You have to factor everything in for mining. It's all math to come out ahead, and yes - resale value factors in for some more than others. Hardware cost, Electricity cost, Crypto price flux.. Of course there are those whom will just blindly go forward and have no idea of where they stand.
The dedicated mining cards wasn't exactly successful last time.
If NVIDIA doesn't advertise them as basically B-stock like they did the first go around they could have more success.
Isn't is possible that nvidia could optimize the mining specific cards hash maybe 10% better than the gaming cards, by making certain design decisions that favor mining algos? This, combined with drivers that are only compatible with these dedicated mining cards, for maybe another 5% boost over gaming cards running the "regular" drivers?
Just trying to think what nvidia could do to make the mining cards attractive enough for miners to pick them over the gaming cards, even if resale is a lot less...
That a big if, what makes a mining card good is its compute performance and throughput and the bandwidth to feed the GPU, both of which also help in game performance. If they remove things like ROP's and TMU's yeah that will help because they can have chips that use less power. But the market for crypto must be big enough to over come the R&D expense to create a chip with both those components being decoupled. Right now they aren't decoupled, even on Volta, I think.
A conscientious effort instead of just stripping output port to put gamer cards into the hands of gamers would be nice. AMD has budget constraints, NVDA has NO constraints on moving forward with a dedicated mining card tailored better for the market.
But that would be an expensive design choice currently, if they do what I stated above then it would be easy for them to do though. They need to have advantages like power or performance for mining over the regular gaming cards to have them sell too. Either a 10% increase in performance or a 10% drop in power usage, either will do the trick.
I would prefer to see them cripple the next gen gaming cards for mining workloads somehow and release a card specifically made for mining. Still flies off the shelves but leaves something for those of us who don't care about mining.
Cannot be done. The same calculations and massive quantities of memory bandwidth used to make a 3D game can be used for mining.
The only way Nvidia sets the Quadro apart is through drivers, and different cuts of (the same) chips. There is nothing else different about them.
Once the industry went to unified shaders, it was only a matter of time before consumers found ways to leverage that MASSIVE bounty of CHEAP compute. And they found a way to turn it into a betting game.
We're just going to have to wait until production capacity goes up. Until then nothing else will help. Especially not gimmicks like mining-only video cards. The video card makers were just caught by-surprise, since the discrete video card sales have been falling for the last decade.
Bingo. The constant "they should just make mining cards" and "they should just stop the gaming cardz from mining" posters are a chorus of banging pot on head with a wooden spoon at this point. It's naive and boring. There's no need for Nvidia to limit anything ("but what about their professional compute cardz?" -- apples v. oranges, different market dynamics), and there would only be downsides in terms of negative PR. What for?
Their GPU's will continue to outsell everything, they'll continue to run circles around AMD as planned, without delays or distractions. There's no need for Nvidia to react to mining demand by increasing production or even really acknowledging it. GPU production has long leadtimes, and mining could change at a moment's notice.
They have the luxury of not needing to introduce unnecessary risk, which speculating on mining by changing product roadmaps or production would do. The CEO has done exactly the right thing so far - being aware of and tolerating mining, but not changing course because of it. Maybe they decided internally to "increase nextgen production 10% above our original targets" - but I don't see them gambling any further beyond that because, again, they don't need to.
So basically, it's OK for Nvidia to screw consumers out of a deserved game card even though those same people filled their coffers with cash so they can play it safe. I see.
Any company in business, not just nVidia...
How does one "deserve" a gaming card? Its a free market, no one "deserves" anything, first come first get. Just because someone bought a card last gen doesn't mean they "deserve" to have retailers to hold on to supply just for that one person.
By "Filling Nvidia's bank account with Billions of dollars?" Do you want me to just keep repeating myself?
So miners do the same so what lol actually to a much less degree than gamers did this generation anyways so.
They aren't obligated to the consumer to have more products for them, their obligation is to their board and that is making money period.
Any case prices of cards are already dropping again, 1070's were 900+ before already back down to 700-800, a few more weeks, lets see what happens. I'm sure by the time Ampere or what its going to be called comes out, prices will be back to normal, stock levels should be too, even though mining is doing pretty good!
I have been shopping for video cards for over 3 weeks -- hours a day pressing F5 checking websites that dont appear on now in stock. I got two Zotac 1080ti amp for $849. and an MSI 1080ti duke for $849 -- i passed on a couple of PNY for $849 cards are actually staying in stock now. I think the worst of it is over, but its going to be awhile before we see a discount.
You people keep acting like Nvidia can just flip a switch, and supply more GPUs. If they could they would.
The reason prices at retail have gone up is predatory third-parties buy the cards at MSRP direct from distributors and resell them for twice the price. This happens every time there's more demand than supply (Nes Classic, SNES Classic ring a bell?) This will never change because retailers don't give a shit who buys the products. Ans as for online companies enforcing "one GPU per household," think how easy that is to bypass with a script that changes your IP address multiple times in minutes?
The reason people do this is because it's relatively easy money for them.
You can wait until we have another short drop in demand (e.g. November of last year), or you can scout out when parts get in stock direct from manufacturer. If you buy from a third party, then you're just adding to the problem.
Buttons, after the stock dried up so quickly in November, I'm just not sure we're anywhere near done with the miner rush. I'm guessing at least a year or two before we satisfy miner demand. It will eventually be satisfied, but big payouts mean that people can afford to rent facilities to house their GROWING mining collection. With that option, the ceiling on this could be sky-high.
Actually its resellers who are making more money from inflated prices, not nvidia.
Who's talking about inflated prices? Not me, you brought it up. I'm talking about a Balance Sheet.
If Nvidia made a mining specific card that hashes 2-3 times as fast as thier current discrete graphics cards, miners would be foolish not to buy them.
Exactly. And some tends to focus only on a small sales area in the world. Also the search for cards in stock and not doing backorders isn´t helping either.
In certain periods it´s cheaper to buy a plane ticket, fly abroad and buy a graphics card in another country and you still save money compared to Newegg for example.
The point was to sell otherwise broken GPUs to miners. There isn´t really any other means.
Some instructions can be disabled on gaming cards to try and help gaming, but that only affects some coins at this point. Like AMDs BIT_ALIGN_INT instruction. So the issue is still the same more or less.
Geezus mining is fucking stupid. We're wasting resources on something that produces NOTHING of value and people are assigning value to it. Ugh. Cannot fucking WAIT until this bubble bursts.
I think these cards are a mistake, too, because at least with real GPUs, after the mining bubble bursts, there will be an inventory of cards that are actually capable of doing something. When the mining bubble bursts, mining-specific cards are going to be paper weights.
What a shitty situation.
So how exactly is that different than gaming? You're spending the same resources to produce nothing of value. I like to game as well, but let's not pretend it is more valuable to society than mining.
The value is the enjoyment people get out of playing games. That is value. Mining is literally just crunching hardware pointlessly. It isn't like a real currency that's actually backed by something tangible. It's basically a convoluted pyramid scheme.
Yeah so the value in mining is outright MONEY lol. it is currency, its can be used to buy other currencies or products outright (bitcoin).
"Real currency", any of them, has nothing backing them. They are based on trust and acceptance of an inherent value. Crypto is based on trust and acceptance of its block chain. You can look at it the same way but its actually different, because the blockchain actually has much more value as it can be used for many other things. Did you forget the gold standard was dropped in the great depression? USD was one of the last currencies that was based on something tangible. Because of the removal of gold as the backing of the dollar, it help regulate the interest rates and actually helped the economy to get out of the depression. This gave control of the economy to the Fed Res. Bank by control of the Fed rate. They can now stimulate and depress the economy by this. Instead of worry about the gold standard.
Ugh, the false equivalency. I mine, more because I have to to offset these stupid prices that are likely to continue for the short term.
Mining is using up a horrific amount of energy, producing no jobs, to create a novelty item.
It has created an unhealthy market (long term) for GPU's and the PC, as those that don't mine but use PC graphics cards will be pushed to other markets, and as Crypto eventually dries up as it MUST (you cannot create money for free forever, either the cost of mining will eventually eclipse the profit or inflation will step in to sort shit out).
It is very likely financing all sorts of illegal and terrifying groups and individuals (drug lords, terrorists, rouge states, and stockbrokers).
It is not currently a currency, sorry razor1, block-chain lacks the fundamental stability required to actually be a currency, in its current state it is at best an asset, similar to a stock. Currencies require long term stability to function. It may one day be a currency, but just because a bunch of people want to run around calling it a currency does not make it one, it can be traded for real currency in a stock market like environment, and some entrepreneurs are betting on it and accepting it as payment for product.
At best Mining has filled the pockets of the GPU makers and redistributed some wealth, but the long term cost remains to be seen.
I think Blockchain is here to stay in some format with some uses, I think cryptocurrancy will stick around but remain a fringe player because ultimately governments will insist that citizens use traceable, taxable currency, and they will win.
Its a currency, I can go to newegg, Dell and a few other places and actually buy things with my Bitcoin lol. Many others are looking into this, in this coming year, most notably Amazon.
And no isn't financing anything illegal anymore, after Silk road, the darknet has pretty much been killed. The feds have cracked down on those types of places. They didn't have the legal tools prior to investigating silk road to do and that is why it took so long to bring down silk road.
Crypto, specific coins will dry up, but that doesn't mean new coins won't be just a profitable. Depends on the presence of the blockchain and what its being used for that will give a coin its profitability. Right now there are a bunch of junk coins out there. Ya need to do the research to figure out what is good to mine and hold vs. mine and sell outright, vs not mine at all.
Like I said, a couple of entrepreneurs are betting on it.
And what about CCE excepting bitcoin on their trading floor? How about EU banks doing the same thing this coming year. Also they are looking into Eth too?
I don't care how much people say crypto is not a currency, currently it can be used and will be used more in the future. IT WILL become a standard of global currency in the next few to several years. This is why we have the biggest economies in world right now are trying to figure out how to control it to their benefit, and also why some Gov's are scared of it because it will screw up their economy since they no longer will have control over it.