Nvidia still having Yield Problems?

H

H-street

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
4,538
i was reading

http://semiaccurate.com/2012/02/15/nvidia-comes-somewhat-clean-on-their-quarterly-conference-call/

there is a bunch of other stuff in there but specifically i was concerned that Nvidia is still having yield problems on the 28nm? The only reason i ask is does anyone else have a seperate confirmation.. We haven't heard 28nm yield problems since last year, i'm a little concerned if Nvidia is still having a problem.

if so, it does answer the question as to why the mid-level is coming out first..
 
The when is more important than what in this case.
Yield problems could have been months ago.

AMD had minor yield problems which prevented the 7970 from being clocked higher.
Clocks were lowered to increase yield. Nvidia is also targeting high clocks which will reduce their yields, since now hotclocks are no longer used.
 
WorldExclusive said:
The when is more important than what in this case.
Yield problems could have been months ago.
Click to expand...

Jen-Hsun Huang said:
“We use wafer-based pricing now, when the yield is lower, our cost is higher. We have transitioned to a wafer-based pricing for some time and our expectation, of course, is that the yields will improve as they have in the previous generation nodes, and as the yields improve, our output would increase and our costs will decline,” stated the head of Nvidia.
Click to expand...

Sounds like he is talking about right now, not months ago.
 
Sinistar said:
Sounds like he is talking about right now, not months ago.
Click to expand...

I see.

Well we've seen a significant price increase in the 7900 series.
Looks like Nvidia will follow suit with their pricing because of a similar yield issues.

This gen isn't going to be price/performance friendly. :(
 
WorldExclusive said:
I see.

Well we've seen a significant price increase in the 7900 series.
Looks like Nvidia will follow suit with their pricing because of a similar yield issues.

This gen isn't going to be price/performance friendly. :(
Click to expand...

The 7xxx series is priced high because Nvidia hasn't released any of there products. I am not an Nvidia fan, but even I want them to get their products released ASAP so prices can start going down.
 
WorldExclusive said:
I see.

Well we've seen a significant price increase in the 7900 series.
Looks like Nvidia will follow suit with their pricing because of a similar yield issues.

This gen isn't going to be price/performance friendly. :(
Click to expand...

Eh, when nVidia had the absolute lead, there was interest in ATi's fire to burn down the advantage. That meant ATi would take the risky route every time (agressive process node shrinks, new memory tech GDDR4/GDDR5), while nVidia could idle along taking the safe route (mature process tech, mature memory tech) every time since they still had the performance lead. Now that AMD has been able to contest that lead rather successfully, nVidia had to step up their game, something they have not done since the FX series (which, as we know, was a near failure), and IMO, what we're seeing is nVidia's teething problems as they step back into high gear (which can also be stated: nVidia's facing internal development and external manufacturing issues as they pursue a more agressive product cycle).
 
darkstarcow said:
The 7xxx series is priced high because Nvidia hasn't released any of there products. I am not an Nvidia fan, but even I want them to get their products released ASAP so prices can start going down.
Click to expand...

You seem not to understand that if Nvidia is paying higher, per-wafer prices, so is AMD.

AMD is not charging more because they don't have competition, they are charging more because the manufacturing cost has gone up.
 
JMccovery said:
You seem not to understand that if Nvidia is paying higher, per-wafer prices, so is AMD.

AMD is not charging more because they don't have competition, they are charging more because the manufacturing cost has gone up.
Click to expand...

This.

Be prepared for a high priced GTX 680/780.
 
Last edited:
JMccovery said:
You seem not to understand that if Nvidia is paying higher, per-wafer prices, so is AMD.

AMD is not charging more because they don't have competition, they are charging more because the manufacturing cost has gone up.
Click to expand...

This is assuming that the yields on AMD wafers are the same as Nvidias.
 
Interesting....Nvidia is blaming TSMC, yet no other company is having yield problems with TSMC.

Even Apple is going with TSMC. Well if TSMC was having problems, you know damn well Apple wouldnt go with TSMC.

And with the 7k series out in full force....

Ugh...Kepler better be good
 
These TSMC yield problems have been going on since 40nm production started and it all worked out. I mean look at all the excess 40nm gpu cards available. Sad part for consumers is it didn't work out till consumers paid a high premium to own a 40nm gpu and it's looking like the same thing is happening with the 28nm process.

How convenient for businesses making money off of 28nm gpus.
 
SonDa5 said:
These TSMC yield problems have been going on since 40nm production started and it all worked out. I mean look at all the excess 40nm gpu cards available. Sad part for consumers is it didn't work out till consumers paid a high premium to own a 40nm gpu and it's looking like the same thing is happening with the 28nm process.

How convenient for businesses making money off of 28nm gpus.
Click to expand...

Im more worried about them bringing out Kepler....not being as fast as the 7970....yet charging around the same price.

Hell I guess im worried about them releasing anything in april now since they admitted they are having 28nm yield issues.
 
DASHlT said:
Interesting....Nvidia is blaming TSMC, yet no other company is having yield problems with TSMC.

Even Apple is going with TSMC. Well if TSMC was having problems, you know damn well Apple wouldnt go with TSMC.
Click to expand...

They may not be using the same process. There are at least two different 28nm processes, and Nvidia is using a different one than AMD, so they could easily be having issues. As for Apple and everyone else, are they even using 28nm?
 
Forceman said:
They may not be using the same process. There are at least two different 28nm processes, and Nvidia is using a different one than AMD, so they could easily be having issues. As for Apple and everyone else, are they even using 28nm?
Click to expand...

If you read the xbit link I posted. Nvidia admits 28nm Kepler yield issues.
 
Even Apple is going with TSMC. Well if TSMC was having problems, you know damn well Apple wouldnt go with TSMC.
Click to expand...

Apple also isn't using the high power, high leakage node that NV is...
 
FaRKle0079 said:
Apple also isn't using the high power, high leakage node that NV is...
Click to expand...

How is that Apples Fault?

The TSMC issues looks like its Nvidia's Fault not anyone else's. No Other company who uses TSMC have complained about Yield issues other then Nvidia.
 
How is that Apples Fault?
Click to expand...

Never said it was Apple's fault. I was pointing out that his example using Apple isn't valid since NV and Apple's products aren't on the same process.
 
FaRKle0079 said:
Never said it was Apple's fault. I was pointing out that his example using Apple isn't valid since NV and Apple's products aren't on the same process.
Click to expand...

so you are telling me Apple isnt using 28nm when the article says they are both using the 28nm?

So You are telling me also AMD isnt using 28nm either?
 
DASHlT said:
How is that Apples Fault?

The TSMC issues looks like its Nvidia's Fault not anyone else's. No Other company who uses TSMC have complained about Yield issues other then Nvidia.
Click to expand...

DASHlT said:
so you are telling me Apple isnt using 28nm when the article says they are both using the 28nm?

So You are telling me also AMD isnt using 28nm either?
Click to expand...

There are two different 28nm processes. As far as I know, only Nvidia is using the one they are using. So it isn't completely Nvidia's fault. Unless you blame Nvidia both for using the high current process, and for somehow screwing up that process.
 
DASHlT said:
Very true, but that doesn't mean its TSMC's problem Nvidia is having 28nm Issues.
Click to expand...

It's pretty clear that TSMC is having 28nm yield problems. That situation is exacerbated for Nvidia both because they are using the new process and because they tend to design large chips that further reduce yields. So it really isn't anybody's fault, it is just the nature of the business and Nvidia's design philosophy. It is, however, unfortunate - especially as it will likely impact pricing in a non-consumer-friendly way.
 
Forceman said:
It's pretty clear that TSMC is having 28nm yield problems. That situation is exacerbated for Nvidia both because they are using the new process and because they tend to design large chips that further reduce yields. So it really isn't anybody's fault, it is just the nature of the business and Nvidia's design philosophy. It is, however, unfortunate - especially as it will likely impact pricing in a non-consumer-friendly way.
Click to expand...

I agree....I was hoping Nvidia would be able to lower the 7k prices and keep GK104 price low.

I am very worried the pricing is going to be more then the 7k series or equal now.
 
DASHlT said:
Very true, but that doesn't mean its TSMC's problem Nvidia is having 28nm Issues.
Click to expand...

nVidia design the die based on the specification provided by TSMC. Its then up to TSMC to deliver on their end as they are the ones who fabricate the die. If somehow they are not able to achieve the targeted yield for that specification they came up with, then something is wrong on their end as TSMC is the one who actually physically manufacture the die and the yield issue is a physical issue so long as the die was designed according to its specification.
 
Forceman said:
It's pretty clear that TSMC is having 28nm yield problems. That situation is exacerbated for Nvidia both because they are using the new process and because they tend to design large chips that further reduce yields. So it really isn't anybody's fault, it is just the nature of the business and Nvidia's design philosophy. It is, however, unfortunate - especially as it will likely impact pricing in a non-consumer-friendly way.
Click to expand...

Negatron, Nvidia knows the issues involved with using each process but unlike ATi who typically chooses to work out the issues on the smaller chips, Nvidia tries it out on the big chips first and voilla.....
 
Forceman said:
It's pretty clear that TSMC is having 28nm yield problems.
Click to expand...



No. Its pretty clear that people repeat what they read on rumor sites.

TSMC doesn't disclose yields publicly.


Yields will be lower when using a new process vs. when that process is mature. You have a yield problem when you are below what is a reasonable expectation for a process in its current state.
 
needmorecarnitine said:
No. Its pretty clear that people repeat what they read on rumor sites.

TSMC doesn't disclose yields publicly.


Yields will be lower when using a new process vs. when that process is mature. You have a yield problem when you are below what is a reasonable expectation for a process in its current state.
Click to expand...

It's all about what nVidia claims they will be capable of delivering vs. what we actually get (i.e. delays).

If they said June 2012, we wouldn't care about yields.

But then, we'd have to question why, again, nVidia is 6 months late to the game.
 
Doesn't matter how you spin it.

Nvidia is late with Kepler, and Is having Yield Issues again. and (if released in april) will be 4 months late to the game.

You cannot blame TSMC for Nvidia's problem.

I REALLY fucking hope Kepler isnt some $600 part....I plan to wait until april to decide my next purchase....but man Yield issues always = more expensive video cards.
 
DASHlT said:
Doesn't matter how you spin it.

Nvidia is late with Kepler, and Is having Yield Issues again. and (if released in april) will be 4 months late to the game.

You cannot blame TSMC for Nvidia's problem.

I REALLY fucking hope Kepler isnt some $600 part....I plan to wait until april to decide my next purchase....but man Yield issues always = more expensive video cards.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point.

The blame is somehow always set upon TSMC when it is nVidia's fault.

It's nVidia's fault for releasing their cards 4-6 months after AMD and no one else's!
 
darkstarcow said:
I have done you the favor of searching newegg for the HD7770, you will notice that the most expensive is $179.99, the least expensive being $159.99.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...9&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&Order=PRICED&PageSize=20
Click to expand...

I have done you the favor of reading some 77XX series reviews and here's the short version--unless you are upgrading from a budget card or a card that is three or more years old, you won't be excited by what you get for your money.
 
it is very possible that NV normally has issues where AMD doesn't because NV has a much larger die, and higher chance of bad yields because of that.

6970 die is about 389mm^2
7970 die is about 378mm^2
580 die is about 520mm^2
 
Apparently some kepler parts are going to be late...later.. laterer...

Anyway. VR-zone reports that nvidia is releasing a 560SE soon with 288 SP, 48 TMUs and 192 bit memory bus. This part is supposed to go against the 7770 at about $150.

That means nvidia has no kepler part coming soon to go head to head with the 7770.

Not good.
 
DASHlT said:
so you are telling me Apple isnt using 28nm when the article says they are both using the 28nm?

So You are telling me also AMD isnt using 28nm either?
Click to expand...

Read this. 28nm is a node, there are different processes within the node.

it is very possible that NV normally has issues where AMD doesn't because NV has a much larger die, and higher chance of bad yields because of that.
Click to expand...

Historically, NV's midrange die sizes tend to be about the same size as AMD's high end so I don't really think that's a factor here (considering we're expecting GK104's codename to refer to the midrange part like GF104 and GF114 did).

GTX460 332mm^2
GTX560 360mm^2
HD5870 334mm^2
HD6970 389mm^2

So either:
1) TSMC is having difficulty with the 28nm process NV is using, or
2) NV is making excuses for poor/non-robust chip design
 
Last edited:
needmorecarnitine said:
No. Its pretty clear that people repeat what they read on rumor sites.

TSMC doesn't disclose yields publicly.


Yields will be lower when using a new process vs. when that process is mature. You have a yield problem when you are below what is a reasonable expectation for a process in its current state.
Click to expand...

Did you read the article? I'd say that "being lower than expected" means they are below the reasonable expectations.

"...The gross margin decline is contributed almost entirely to the yields of 28nm being lower than expected. That is, I guess, unsurprising at this point,” said Jen-Hsun Huang, chief executive officer of Nvidia, during a conference call with financial analysts.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top