New Samsung 4k for everyone.

Maybe wait 3-4 months and see what happens? It's very possible to have new Samsung 2016 models in March because last year they started to sell 2015 models that time and If you cant find something good or are too expensive then I bet 48JU7500 is much cheaper that time then now, because it's old model that time and they need to sell them to make room for new 2016 models.
 
Nightingale007 said:
-The test is not artificial it's an eye test the one you claim that matters. Nor is the UFO test for ULMB. They are not isolated trick tests instead the PWM test is quite representative of how the artifacting effects the visual smoothness of the displayed picture. The PWM effect is most noticed the closer you are to the display, which most people here I assume fit into that bracket. Also read up on some of the user's who after running those tests, decided to up there brightness to fix the problem and noticed a difference when gaming. It's a real issue, it exists and pretending it doesn't won't change anything. I have already said if it doesn't bother you, then all the power to you.
I have no interest to keep bringing this subject up, I only wanted to inform potential buyers(which I was recently), nothing more.
Click to expand...

It is an artificial test. Play Skyrim, Diablo 3, World of Warships, Fallout 4, BF 4, Pillars of Eternity, etc...etc...and tell me how much motion blur you see. However, you said you can already see motion blur in the games you play for both console and PC. Under very artificial settings I can see motion blur in some games but only, and only, if I'm looking for it under those artificial settings. This is for me, not you, me. I've never disagreed with users who say they are affected by PWM, I'm just disagreeing with the notion that any set with PWM is not a good set.

-Also why do you keep bringing up that crappy SONY TV the X830C? Even I tell people to avoid that model. The very fact that you purchased the 830C shows you did very little research prior to your purchase, I mean it's an IPS panel with a contrast of 741 : 1. The 830C in no way represents the quality and performance of the other line of TV's Sony sells. The X810C or 850C are the good ones but they start at 55" and up.
Click to expand...

Why do I keep bringing up the Sony? I believe you have me confused with someone else because that is the first time I have been in this thread, let alone mentioned the Sony TV. Also I never said I bought it, I said I had it. It was a gift from my in-laws for our new house. The very fact you are getting defensive and trying to insult me based on a supposition on your part says you aren't trying to inform, but to berate.

-The reason as I mentioned earlier,(if you bothered to read)
Click to expand...
Why yes I did bother to read, thanks for being snarky and passive-aggressive with your insult.

why it seems that this topic is being spouted over and over is because people(not everyone here) such as yourself keep continuously responding back in an aggressive manner rather then addressing the facts.
Click to expand...

The only one responding in an aggressive manner is you, ironically enough. I'm addressing the facts; however, you seem to think that the facts = something other than what they are.

Low and behold it appears quite a few owners here were not aware of this issue. Glad I could be of some service. After all you say it's all about choices, that is why people such as myself bring these issues forward so that those people can make the best choices possible by way of having the most truthful up to date information at there disposal.
Click to expand...

I have no issue with discussing settings for a particular set; however, you don't even own the TV. It is one thing to come in and say hey, I looked at this set but the PWM was too severe and I couldn't use it, even after adjusting the settings to...but literally after multiple pages with you chiming in with the PWM I felt you were giving an unfair position on the Samsung series of TVs.

So if you want to move forward as you claim, quite acting out and calling people trolls, and learn to have a civil conversation please, or just ignore me.
Click to expand...

I'm finding your feigned attempt at civility confusing. No where was I acting out or called anyone a troll, I also never said I wanted to move forward. My point, like Zarathustra's is that the issues you continue to point out in every other post is moot if you aren't susceptible to them, which given this very thread is suggestive that the Samsung series are fine monitors for the majority of owners. PWN is a poor technology but it works and it isn't the boogey man that it is being made out to be.
 
Vapochilled said:
OK.... That explains....
Its almost 360e difference between both curved 6500 and 7500.... And after all tgese discussions... Im wondering if i should spend 700 or 1070
Click to expand...

What games will you be playing and how close will you be sitting?
 
Climber said:
It is an artificial test. Play Skyrim, Diablo 3, World of Warships, Fallout 4, BF 4, Pillars of Eternity, etc...etc...and tell me how much motion blur you see
Click to expand...
I see tons of motion blur and so does everyone else, since that's the nature of all sample and hold displays. You are not understanding that the issue being discussed here was never about motion blur but motion artifacting caused by PWM.

Climber said:
I'm finding your feigned attempt at civility confusing. No where was I acting out or called anyone a troll, I also never said I wanted to move forward. My point, like Zarathustra's is that the issues you continue to point out in every other post is moot if you aren't susceptible to them, which given this very thread is suggestive that the Samsung series are fine monitors for the majority of owners. PWN is a poor technology but it works and it isn't the boogey man that it is being made out to be.
Click to expand...

Is that so, let's have a look see at what you said earlier.
Climber said:
" Nightingale and the others can give "facts" to help others but the thing they don't understand is that the vast majority of people aren't affected by PWM and setting up artificial tests to prove the weakness of a set isn't informative as it is berating and trolling when they just keep bringing up the same point over and over again.
Click to expand...

You imply it right there. Yet now deny ever saying it. That's you attacking me in an uncivilized manner. So please don't get all confused on my behalf.

The only one responding in an aggressive manner is you, ironically enough. I'm addressing the facts; however, you seem to think that the facts = something other than what they are.
Click to expand...

No sir that would be you as I just proved with your earlier quote, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. By the way just because you claim you're addressing the facts does not make it so.

Why yes I did bother to read, thanks for being snarky and passive-aggressive with your insult.
Click to expand...

I sincerely doubt that since apparently as demonstrated above you don't even bother to read your own posts. My snarky comment is a result of frustration and quite warranted I might add.
 
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Zarathustra[H];1042007772 said:
Don't blame them.

....

Would a US market TV be compatible with European standards? I'd imagine that these days they can all display PAL right?
Click to expand...

I have yet to find a TV in US that displays PAL. If any of these Samsungs do, please do tell.
 
Climber said:
It is an artificial test. Play Skyrim, Diablo 3, World of Warships, Fallout 4, BF 4, Pillars of Eternity, etc...etc...and tell me how much motion blur you see. However, you said you can already see motion blur in the games you play for both console and PC. Under very artificial settings I can see motion blur in some games but only, and only, if I'm looking for it under those artificial settings. This is for me, not you, me. I've never disagreed with users who say they are affected by PWM, I'm just disagreeing with the notion that any set with PWM is not a good set.



Why do I keep bringing up the Sony? I believe you have me confused with someone else because that is the first time I have been in this thread, let alone mentioned the Sony TV. Also I never said I bought it, I said I had it. It was a gift from my in-laws for our new house. The very fact you are getting defensive and trying to insult me based on a supposition on your part says you aren't trying to inform, but to berate.

Why yes I did bother to read, thanks for being snarky and passive-aggressive with your insult.



The only one responding in an aggressive manner is you, ironically enough. I'm addressing the facts; however, you seem to think that the facts = something other than what they are.



I have no issue with discussing settings for a particular set; however, you don't even own the TV. It is one thing to come in and say hey, I looked at this set but the PWM was too severe and I couldn't use it, even after adjusting the settings to...but literally after multiple pages with you chiming in with the PWM I felt you were giving an unfair position on the Samsung series of TVs.



I'm finding your feigned attempt at civility confusing. No where was I acting out or called anyone a troll, I also never said I wanted to move forward. My point, like Zarathustra's is that the issues you continue to point out in every other post is moot if you aren't susceptible to them, which given this very thread is suggestive that the Samsung series are fine monitors for the majority of owners. PWN is a poor technology but it works and it isn't the boogey man that it is being made out to be.
Click to expand...

Amen - well said.
 
Nightingale007 said:
Is that so, let's have a look see at what you said earlier.


You imply it right there. Yet now deny ever saying it. So please don't get all confused on my behalf.
Click to expand...

Again, I never called anyone a troll. You seem to be confusing a personal attack with addressing a repetitive argument or action. The implication was that the continued pulpit pounding of PWM on Samsung monitors, regardless of all the personal praise in this thread for said monitors, borders on beratment and or trolling. This thread is evidence that the prevalence of PWM isn't as bad as NCX and his cronies made it out to be. Continuing bringing up their arguments and berating people as you have done is bordering on the actions that likely got them banned.

No sir that would be you as I just proved with your earlier quote, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. By the way just because you claim you're addressing the facts does not make it so.

No you didn't and apparently as demonstrated above you don't even read your own posts. My snarky comment is a result of frustration and quite warranted I might add.
Click to expand...

That you are frustrated is correct and the facts you say I don't address has not been needed because we're not discussing facts. Your argument consisted of PWM = bad so not worth buying. Again this is an incorrect assumption as evidenced by this thread and the amount of people satisfied with the Samsung as a monitor. This is the only argument being addressed.

While PWM is a poor technology ITT does not mean the Samsung is an inferior panel for the majority of people. So again, if you are susceptible to PWM and its affects then the Samsung probably isn't for you. You stated this was the case for you and it was evident on the model you looked at. I hope the Sony works out for you and you enjoy your purchase because in the end this is all that matters.
 
Does JU7500 needs passive or active 3d glasses and does 3D works with PC games too?
 
Climber said:
Again, I never called anyone a troll. You seem to be confusing a personal attack with addressing a repetitive argument or action. The implication was that the continued pulpit pounding of PWM on Samsung monitors, regardless of all the personal praise in this thread for said monitors, borders on beratment and or trolling. This thread is evidence that the prevalence of PWM isn't as bad as NCX and his cronies made it out to be. Continuing bringing up their arguments and berating people as you have done is bordering on the actions that likely got them banned.
Click to expand...

Directly no, but we have already covered this. What you did was imply it by throwing my name directly in there and that fact that you refuse to admit what is so blatantly obvious says alot about your character. Anyone with a brain can read between the lines. I would have great deal more respect if you'd just simply admit it.

This whole issue was never on my behalf a campaign to sway and berate people as you so candidly put it, but instead is a result of both defensive and non defensive people who continuously want to either challenge or further discuss the issue, as I already explained previously.

Oh and please don't put words into my mouth.
"Your argument consisted of PWM = bad so not worth buying"
You make far too many assumptions as that has never been my argument. I just bought a Philips 4K 40" PWM monitor for my main display. I thought it be fair that people be informed ahead of time and understand the downsides to displays that use PWM before going out and buying one as opposed to ones which implement DC dimming. PWM is a dead technology and eventually you will see most manufactures move away from it just as they are on the PC side. Why do you think in every review be it TFTCentral or Prad do they always mention how disappointed they are in a display when they realize it uses PWM to control brightness, are they also nitpicking and making a mountain out of a mole. They have a dedicated sections geared towards discussing PWM and testing the duty cycles and the motion artifacts of each display.
 
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@Nightingale007

We understand your point. If you are truly not trolling, then let's let it go. Hopefully the 2016 models will be even better and appeal to a wider range of people. If not Samsung, then hopefully another manufacturer.

Have a good day!
 
Nightingale007 said:
By positive do you mean propagating false information, just as he did in his last few posts.
Click to expand...

At the risk of bringing this topic back, which I should let it die, but this is my last statement to defend myself. I did not propagate any false information. PWM artifacts are one form of motion blur (not clarity), and the smearing of DC backlight is also another form of motion blur, which is also non-clarity of motion. They're both bad. Strobing on high refresh panels eliminates both forms of motion blur, but at the risk of causing headaches for people who are already adverse to PWM/strobing.

You seem to think PWM motion artifacts is considered motion artifact but motion smearing is not, and that the latter is somehow is superior. They're not, both are bad forms of motion artifacts inherent to the technology of LCD. The test you posted tests for PWM artifacts which PWM-units would show. However, that doesn't give a pass to general smearing motion artifacts of DC units. The 6 series have less smearing but more visible ghosting. The 7 series has less ghosting and less smearing, which is a nice compromise for *me*. Others who hate the ghosting but prefer the smearing motion artifacts will prefer DC-backlight.

We need to wait for high refresh OLED monitors to fix this inherent LCD issue. I'll be the first to buy it and move the Samsung to the bedroom. However, don't go telling people to buy DC-backlight monitors to alleviate all motion blur artifacts because that's not true. LCD's shortcomings will not be fixed until we move on to newer (non-current) OLED technology as the existing ones still have issues similar to LCD.
 
Nightingale007 said:
Test your JS9000 on the link i provided above.
Click to expand...

My js9000 shows pwm trails, it is noticeable if you know what to look for. Would the js9000 be better without pwm, imho yes but as many have stated already, it is all about compromise for displays.
 
aadik said:
Does JU7500 needs passive or active 3d glasses and does 3D works with PC games too?
Click to expand...

I looked on Samsungs website and it doesn't indicate that this particular model is 3-d capable. The 8500 series is active 3-d but I have not tried any games in 3-d on it. Sorry.
 
Climber said:
I looked on Samsungs website and it doesn't indicate that this particular model is 3-d capable. The 8500 series is active 3-d but I have not tried any games in 3-d on it. Sorry.
Click to expand...

It comes with active 3d glasses, though it is odd that it isnt advertised as 3d. I didn't think it was but when I bought it I was surprised to find 3d glasses with it.
 
munkle said:
It comes with active 3d glasses, though it is odd that it isnt advertised as 3d. I didn't think it was but when I bought it I was surprised to find 3d glasses with it.
Click to expand...

My bad, after double checking it does state a time 3-d on their spec sheets. Guess the page didn't fully load when looking. So yea, Active 3-d Aadik.
 
munkle said:
It comes with active 3d glasses, though it is odd that it isnt advertised as 3d. I didn't think it was but when I bought it I was surprised to find 3d glasses with it.
Click to expand...

It does.

Keep in mind - however - that these glasses are intended for use with movies at 24hz, and would likely not be satisfactory in games.

The reason being that while the panel is a 120hz panel, due to HDMI2.0 bandwidth restrictions, the highest possible usable refresh rate is 60hz. (tehcnically it should be possible to run 1080p at 120hz, but they have not enabled this for some reason).

Due to this, the highest possible 3D refresh rate you will get is 30hz, which I would imagine would be unsatisfactory to most.
 
Zarathustra[H];1042008735 said:
It does.

Keep in mind - however - that these glasses are intended for use with movies at 24hz, and would likely not be satisfactory in games.

The reason being that while the panel is a 120hz panel, due to HDMI2.0 bandwidth restrictions, the highest possible usable refresh rate is 60hz. (tehcnically it should be possible to run 1080p at 120hz, but they have not enabled this for some reason).

Due to this, the highest possible 3D refresh rate you will get is 30hz, which I would imagine would be unsatisfactory to most.
Click to expand...

3D will be 1080p 60Hz/eye, and may have interpolated 4K from 30Hz input with internal 3D conversion for 60Hz/eye.

edit
Although this assumes the TV can do 2D 1080p @120Hz which I recall it cant.
So you are probably right.
Helps if I fully read your post too :p
 
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Again It's only since the appearance of those Samsung J/JU/JS on the market that people have started looking for reasons to defend PWM and calling people who reject it names/trolls whatever.

From the moment PWM LED backlighting was introduced to the market around 2009~2010, the crowd, reviewers, websites from casual to expert, the entire freaking World agreed PWM is shite and not fit for LCD.
Because what it does goes against picture clarity during motion, in a most obvious way, plus some people could get headaches from the slow~ish flickering.
The manufacturers slowly started to switch from PWM to DC and around 2013 DC became the norm.

For some reason (called cost) several manufacturers are again shoving PWM backlights into their displays where they didn't before. 2015 is not a very good year for TV's do we have to create a banner for that so people register lol ?

Now in regards to the Samsung 2015 series matter; does PWM disqualify all sets period ?
NO ! They're still quite good ffs !
But there isn't one rational reason to defend their PWM, none, it's minus a few points and that's it, people who don't admit it are just frustrated that their expensive big screens aren't perfect like the inexperienced (and probably funded) Rtings said.
 
Richard Jones said:
Again It's only since the appearance of those Samsung J/JU/JS on the market that people have started looking for reasons to defend PWM and calling people who reject it names/trolls whatever.

From the moment PWM LED backlighting was introduced to the market around 2009~2010, the crowd, reviewers, websites from casual to expert, the entire freaking World agreed PWM is shite and not fit for LCD.
Because what it does goes against picture clarity during motion, in a most obvious way, plus some people could get headaches from the slow~ish flickering.
The manufacturers slowly started to switch from PWM to DC and around 2013 DC became the norm.

For some reason (called cost) several manufacturers are again shoving PWM backlights into their displays where they didn't before. 2015 is not a very good year for TV's do we have to create a banner for that so people register lol ?

Now in regards to the Samsung 2015 series matter; does PWM disqualify all sets period ?
NO ! They're still quite good ffs !
But there isn't one rational reason to defend their PWM, none, it's minus a few points and that's it, people who don't admit it are just frustrated that their expensive big screens aren't perfect like the inexperienced (and probably funded) Rtings said.
Click to expand...

I understand your point clearly but first of all WHERE exactly did Rtings said they are perfect?
To the same extent, people defending the pathetic contrast and black levels on some of the other TVs they put over the Samsung have no rational reason to defend that either yet they do so make sure you put the blame on both camps not just one ;) And to clarify, if there was a Sony 810C in the 40-43" I would go for it but alas there are none.
 
aadik said:
Maybe wait 3-4 months and see what happens? It's very possible to have new Samsung 2016 models in March because last year they started to sell 2015 models that time and If you cant find something good or are too expensive then I bet 48JU7500 is much cheaper that time then now, because it's old model that time and they need to sell them to make room for new 2016 models.
Click to expand...


just found a 48 inch 7500 curved for 899e !!

I think I will get this one!!!!! :D

Do you agree ?
 
shaolin95 said:
I understand your point clearly but first of all WHERE exactly did Rtings said they are perfect?
Click to expand...

- Much too high marks on displays clearly showing PWM artifacts.
Like, since they have started the website. Because clearly they didn't know, didn't realize (still don't).

- Same in regards to input lag that should clearly count for much more in their 'gaming' rating.

- Also their scaling test on a random picture is just laughable, redo those with proper testing pattern pics and cry at how bad some (most) models are no matter the name brand.

-> Not realizing those are among the most crucial specs performance in regards to gaming and fixed matrix dispalys basics as a whole, is not being competent.
Their marks and opinions are flawed, still they rate very high some models ignoring all this.

We've all been reading monitors reviews from tftcentral, prad, pcmonitors, and several other for years, we're supposed to know about these things... yet people buy Samsung TV's and magically YAY ! those specs and performance are not important anymore !!??
And NCX/Nikyo are the biased ones !!??

I don't give a crap about the Sony's or whatever it's not a matter of who bought the least shitty product, it's about objectivity, technology, science ffs !
Or did [H] become 'Amazon comments v2.0' ? :D
 
Man, can't run away from elitist attitudes. Sites that agree with MY critical assessments, they're good! Sites that disagrees, it's a shill site.

My opinion is best...because science!

You've all said your piece. Now move your trollin' along. Go find these perfect 40" monitors that don't exist. Until then, stop comparing our purchase decision with your make-believe 40" monitors that don't exist. SMH.
 
^
Cyph, so you mean your opinion is best...because of your ignorance ? :D :D :D

You must have had a religious education.

PS: personally I don't care about 40" monitors, didn't even mention any.
 
Cyph said:
Man, can't run away from elitist attitudes. Sites that agree with MY critical assessments, they're good! Sites that disagrees, it's a shill site.

My opinion is best...because science!

You've all said your piece. Now move your trollin' along. Go find these perfect 40" monitors that don't exist. Until then, stop comparing our purchase decision with your make-believe 40" monitors that don't exist. SMH.
Click to expand...

Church!
 
Cyph said:
At the risk of bringing this topic back, which I should let it die, but this is my last statement to defend myself. I did not propagate any false information. PWM artifacts are one form of motion blur (not clarity), and the smearing of DC backlight is also another form of motion blur, which is also non-clarity of motion. They're both bad. Strobing on high refresh panels eliminates both forms of motion blur, but at the risk of causing headaches for people who are already adverse to PWM/strobing.

You seem to think PWM motion artifacts is considered motion artifact but motion smearing is not, and that the latter is somehow is superior. They're not, both are bad forms of motion artifacts inherent to the technology of LCD. The test you posted tests for PWM artifacts which PWM-units would show. However, that doesn't give a pass to general smearing motion artifacts of DC units. The 6 series have less smearing but more visible ghosting. The 7 series has less ghosting and less smearing, which is a nice compromise for *me*. Others who hate the ghosting but prefer the smearing motion artifacts will prefer DC-backlight.
Click to expand...

This will be my last post on this matter, but I need to address this since you have made inaccurate accusations against me here which are simply untrue, not to mention misrepresented the data presented.

The artifacts caused by PWM are a worse form of motion blur because as I tried( as well as many others) to explain before it effects motion fluidity by way of fragmenting the image causing multiple repetitions of itself where as in DC dimming it does not but instead it smooths the image. You are arguing that a worse motion artifact is on par with one that is better aka smoother. It's widely understand by the consensus that PWM is worse than DC for use in dimming.

Why is this such a hard concept to grasp or I suppose come to terms with? If you personally don't mind PWM's effects, so be it then that;s your right to preference.

Cyph said:
, don't go telling people to buy DC-backlight monitors to alleviate all motion blur artifacts because that's not true.
Click to expand...

This very statement here that you're making is the primary compelling reason why I decided to respond back. I never once said nor did I ever imply that DC dimming would eliminate the inherent nature of LCD's sample and hold effect which is the main cause of smearing/blurring. These are two completely separate issues.

I ask you kindly to refrain from making inaccurate statement's on my behalf as they do not represent my point of view. For you to have made that statement indicates to me that you still haven't fully understood in it's entirety what's been discussed here and are confusing facts.

My stance is that DC dimming is far superior to PWM. It reduces eye fatigue and does not cause any any discrete afterimages in multitudes while sample and hold effect takes place. In essence DC allows the motion blurring to be more in line with how humans normally perceive motion, which is why side by side PWM looks worse.

You don't agree, then so be it. I'm done here as I have said my piece.
 
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PWM is not a deal breaker for many people. Get over it. There is no perfect display so what works for one may not work for you. I don't understand why this is so difficult a concept to understand.
 
Nightingale007 said:
...
My stance is that DC dimming is far superior to PWM. It reduces eye fatigue and does not cause any any discrete afterimages in multitudes while sample and hold effect takes place. In essence DC allows the motion blurring to be more in line with how humans normally perceive motion, which is why side by side PWM looks worse.
Click to expand...

No one is disagreeing with this. Not one single time has anyone I've seen disagree with this. We're telling you and the others PWM isn't noticeably affecting our use so for now our purchase works just fine. Yet you and the PWM cronies can't comprehend this fact that the vast majority aren't affected by this as evidence by this thread.

Unless like Nikko and NCX you want to resort to calling all of us idiots and ill-informed consumers because that is where this is going. This thread is evidence that the Samsung series works just fine for the vast majority of people on this site regardless of PWM, yes some people have an adverse reaction to PWM therefore several of the sets will not be a wise purchase for those. However, again for those who aren't adverse to PWM or its effects the Samsungs are excellent monitors and tvs.
 
Richard Jones said:
Again It's only since the appearance of those Samsung J/JU/JS on the market that people have started looking for reasons to defend PWM and calling people who reject it names/trolls whatever.

From the moment PWM LED backlighting was introduced to the market around 2009~2010, the crowd, reviewers, websites from casual to expert, the entire freaking World agreed PWM is shite and not fit for LCD.
Because what it does goes against picture clarity during motion, in a most obvious way, plus some people could get headaches from the slow~ish flickering.
The manufacturers slowly started to switch from PWM to DC and around 2013 DC became the norm.

For some reason (called cost) several manufacturers are again shoving PWM backlights into their displays where they didn't before. 2015 is not a very good year for TV's do we have to create a banner for that so people register lol ?
Click to expand...

Here's what I don't understand. We all agree that PWM isn't ideal, and that DC dimming would be better, but for whatever reason (most likely cost) some manufacturers have chosen to implement PWM. We can also agree that despite this, PWM doesn't bother everyone.

It is also universally understood that lower freq PWM is the worst kind, and that PWM at frequencies above a certain threshold are preferable and less noticeable to people bothered by PWM.

So if, as a manufacturer, you're going to implement PWM...why not implement it at high frequency? I can almost understand choosing to use it, but I can't think that it's any more costly to set a frequency of, say, 1000Hz than to set it at 240Hz or lower. That way, you could "cheap out" and use PWM but minimize its drawbacks. Maybe there's something that I'm missing here, like components that use slower PWM last longer or something, but it would be nice to know the reason why. Unless they just don't care because they assume it's not a big deal...but surely anyone smart enough to engineer something like that has an understanding of the effects. :confused:
 
Best I've heard is the faster you're flashing LEDs on and off the faster you're wearing them out.
However, that doesn't sound like a total answer to me because so many other solid brands choose to flash them faster (my HP Z30i for instance flashes them so fast the PWM is completely imperceptible). If it was strictly a durability thing, does that mean Samsung uses less durable components and HP uses components that last 10x-20x longer? Doubtful. Need the real answer.
Hard to believe an HP monitor will burn out 20x faster than a Samsung because of PWM freq.

Does rtings know the answer? Does TFTCentral know the answer?
 
Brahmzy said:
That doesn't answer the question.

Why did Samsung choose the lower frequency for their PWM implementation, if we all know higher is better?
Click to expand...

Basically higher PWM frequencies require more complex circuitry, hence more expensive to produce. Rating companies like Energy Star can also regulate PWM frequencies thus many manufacturers will meet the lowest spec and call it good. Why though? Cost. It is that simple. The tradeoff is that many manufacturers have PWM technology down to where they feel, IMO, they have the least amount of people affected and produce a device with a large profit margin.

Now that is a cynical view, but I feel justified; however, PWM was initially used not because it was cheap, but because it could maintain an accurate color temperature at its rated current and its ability to offer a much broader range and it was easier to work with. Technology is increasing to where DC is becoming easier to use and mass produce; however, it isn't as easy as Richard makes it out. DC dimming provides a linear output and that requires a tradeoff in other areas such as reduced brightness and dimming controls that PWM isn't affected by.

For now PWM is an acceptable and widely used technology not just in TVs and monitors but in pretty much all lightning applications. Our engineers have to use specialty LED lightning with specific power supply requirements which is related to PWM flickering ironically enough. I talked to one of them this afternoon who went into quite a bit of detail about PWM, DC, and CCR dimming but honestly, not sure how it relates to our monitor debate, it seemed relevant at times and at others not so much but it got way over my head quickly.

But given all that, this is what TFT central has to say about PWM which mirrors my sentiments:
As we said at the beginning, this article is not designed to scare people away from modern LCD displays, rather to help inform people of this potential issue. With the growing popularity in W-LED backlit monitors it does seem to be causing more user complaints than older displays, and this is related to the PWM technique used and ultimately the type of backlight selected. Of course the problems which can potentially be caused by the use of PWM are not seen by everyone, and in fact I expect there are far more people who would never notice any of the symptoms than there are people who do. For those who do suffer from side effects including headaches and eye strain there is an explanation at least.

With the long term and proven success of a technology like Pulse Width Modulation, and the many years of use in CCFL displays we can't see it being widely changed at any time soon to be honest, even with the popular move to W-LED backlit units. It is still a reliable method for controlling the backlight intensity and therefore offering a range of brightness adjustments which every user would want and need. Those who are concerned about its side effects or who have had problems with previous displays should try and consider the frequency of the PWM in their new display, or perhaps even try and find a screen where it is not used at all in backlight dimming. Some manufacturers are proactively addressing this concern through the use of flicker free backlights, and so options are emerging which do not use PWM. Our Flicker Free Monitor Database tracks all those models which are known to be PWM-free
Click to expand...

This IMO is what many of the PWM critics fail to recognize. It doesn't affect everyone the same. They are right and justified in their criticism of PWM technology and it is changing, slower than we may wish for but it is changing. But for now, this is what we're stuck with and for many of us our current PWM monitors do not affect us to the point where we are visibly or detrimentally distracted by its use in our Samsung or whatever monitor people are happy with. This thread is full of people explicitly happy with their Samsungs, but according to Niyko and NCX we're idiots, retards, and ruining this forum because we like are Samsung monitors. They are, and others as well, are entitled to their opinion, just like we are entitled to ours and I and my wife love our JS8500 to the point where I am buying two more 1 for the bedroom and 1 for the den. I'd like to get one for full time use as my main monitor but just bought a Crossover 404k a few months ago and the wife keeps frowning when I suggest I need another new monitor. Not sure why though...
 
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Brahmzy said:
That doesn't answer the question.

Why did Samsung choose the lower frequency for their PWM implementation, if we all know higher is better?
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Samsung made many mistakes because they wanted more profit with making cheaper screens. Look one of the high end JS9000 model it use PWM and edge lit backlight. Such high end screen must be with direct lit backlight and whats more creepy that JU7500 use direct lit backlight but JS9000 didn't. Lets hope Samsung 2016 models don't have these flaws.
 
Climber said:
It doesn't affect everyone the same
Click to expand...

No, people keep saying this but it's not what it's about.

1. PWM is giving headaches -> not necessarily, it's affecting only a minority.

2. PWM is affecting motion clarity -> YES IT DOES, FOR EVERYONE !

It's that second point in particular NCX or others who understood how it works criticize about PWM, and people keep ignoring it.

He's right period. We're talking about using displays for gaming here, PWM is one of the worst things for motion perception because it produces afterimages/artifacts, especially when this slow.
He calls people idiots or blind for a reason, we have excellent articles describing how motion and backlighting work, which he keeps linking and people ignore apparently, or they just read the parts they want and their minds erase the embarrassing ones.
https://pcmonitors.info/articles/factors-affecting-pc-monitor-responsiveness/
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/pulse_width_modulation.htm#side_effects

Anyone would get pissed off and become aggressive with people repeatedly refusing to see a common, well documented and easy to understand fact you're showing them.
NCX sure seemed to have OCD~ish behavior constantly repeating the same stuff, and he ended up insulting people, but after all the knowledge and help he provided, also with his own excellent reviews, I can put myself in his shoes seeing how much he's been ignored and rejected for some time.

It's technology here, so yeah of course science and experimentation matter, before money and feelings, and although I'm not an objectivist/randian nut, I'd say this is a case where A is A, whether people like it or not.
Apparently most people don't, and that's understandable.

Just asking a simple question: if people knew beforehand that the 2015 Samsung sets all had PWM; would you have bought one to use a monitor ?
No you wouldn't have, because before spending around $1000 or more, rationality matters.
After spending it...er...well...

PS: don't get me wrong if I was given a JU7500 for free I would take it. Because PWM and color issues aside it's a very nice set ! :p As a whole several of those Samsung sets are still very nice.
 
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