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NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)
- Thread starter wahaha360
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If you're comfortable with having the drive hanging relatively loosely by the m.2 connector, then I guess that counts as supported heh
In the first picture the guy cut up his Asus riser card's casing, and in another thread I thought I recalled someone saying that the drive itself got hot enough to where he put a thermal pad between the riser casing and the Samsung drive.
Those read/write speeds definitely look like fun, though
In the first picture the guy cut up his Asus riser card's casing, and in another thread I thought I recalled someone saying that the drive itself got hot enough to where he put a thermal pad between the riser casing and the Samsung drive.
Those read/write speeds definitely look like fun, though
You are funny
Those drives weigh nothing and are held tightly in the socket. That the XP941 runs hot is known issue and not due to the choice of motherboard. Luckily the M1 case fans blow directly on it, and I don't believe the guy really needed to cut up his bracket.
The thing is, the M7I supports only PCIe interface, not Sata. There are currently no 2242 PCIe drives, nor any 2260e PCIe drives, only two commonly available PCIe M.2 drives: the Plextor M6e and the Samsung XP941 which are both 2280.
There's probably better reasons to prefer the Z97I-Plus. I'm happy with my M7I, but I know Phuncz said he regrets his purchase.
You are funny
Those drives weigh nothing and are held tightly in the socket. That the XP941 runs hot is known issue and not due to the choice of motherboard. Luckily the M1 case fans blow directly on it, and I don't believe the guy really needed to cut up his bracket.
The thing is, the M7I supports only PCIe interface, not Sata. There are currently no 2242 PCIe drives, nor any 2260e PCIe drives, only two commonly available PCIe M.2 drives: the Plextor M6e and the Samsung XP941 which are both 2280.
There's probably better reasons to prefer the Z97I-Plus. I'm happy with my M7I, but I know Phuncz said he regrets his purchase.
My M6i disappointment may factor in here then haha; it's alright for what it's supposed to do, but definitely not the be-all end all it's priced at. Maybe that's where the itx limitations come in, or every user having different needs
Thank you Siba and Wisk for your comments.
If I understand correctly, there is only two M.2 drives supported on the M7I, the Plextor M6e and the Samsung XP941, both are PCIe and 2280 drives. And they need to be fitted on the PCI combo riser, which might add a level of complexity to the whole operation, but they are supported on the M7I. So if I chose this route, I do not need to worry about extra mods?
And finally, the shorter 2260 are slower since there is no PCIe interface available, which unfortunately pretty much rule out the MSI Z97I gaming ACK.
Any other reason that could help me chose between the Z97I-plus and M7I?
Some review mentioned that the Z97I-plus on-board audio is on the weak side... the M7I seem to perform better, if you can manage to tight screws... but is there a significant difference between the two?
Does the fact that I can chose a full motherboard block (EK-FB ASUS M6I) for the M7I constituted a significant advantage?
thank you
If I understand correctly, there is only two M.2 drives supported on the M7I, the Plextor M6e and the Samsung XP941, both are PCIe and 2280 drives. And they need to be fitted on the PCI combo riser, which might add a level of complexity to the whole operation, but they are supported on the M7I. So if I chose this route, I do not need to worry about extra mods?
And finally, the shorter 2260 are slower since there is no PCIe interface available, which unfortunately pretty much rule out the MSI Z97I gaming ACK.
Any other reason that could help me chose between the Z97I-plus and M7I?
Some review mentioned that the Z97I-plus on-board audio is on the weak side... the M7I seem to perform better, if you can manage to tight screws... but is there a significant difference between the two?
Does the fact that I can chose a full motherboard block (EK-FB ASUS M6I) for the M7I constituted a significant advantage?
thank you
The Asus boards also have high minimum duty cycle on the cpu and chassi fans. I believe it's 20% on the cpu fan, and 60% on the chassi fan. I am not sure how big impact this makes, but it's not good for a quiet SFF computer.
Maybe someone owning one of these Asus boards can tell whether a cpu fan on 20% is acceptable or not? Chassi on 60% sounds crazy, though.
I have myself been considering the Z97i-Plus, but that stupid minimum duty cycles have made me hesitate. Looks like a solid board otherwise. I think the audio is good enough.
It's not a significant advantage unless you specifically want a full motherboard block, I think. You might be at more of an advantage by going with an Apogee drive ii instead, as that would save you a lot of tubing/space/component clearance hassle as long as the Apogee cleared your motherboard components and ram
It is indeed high, but you can tune it a little bit with Asus ai suite. My M6I wouldn't let the cpu fan go under 40% iirc, until I used ai suite. Not sure what the minimums are for ai suite, I just used it to get things down to a comfortably quiet level and stopped there - I was able to go down to around 20 or 25% and things were good enough
Yeah, can be tweaked a bit lower with their Fan Xpert software I think. But being dependent on a software program to do it is ridiculous. And what if you want to install another OS, like Linux. No, BIOS should be enough.
I guess Asus is afraid some fans will not start up, but as far as I know this doesn't affect PWM fans. The minimum supported duty cycle can be detected, and that's what the BIOS should use. It can be 0% or 20%, or something else, it depends on the fan. But to ignore this, and always set 20% or even 40% for the CPU, I can't understand.
The chassi fan headers on the Z97i-Plus are supposed to be controlled either via DC or PWM, and if detecting PWM, why do they still set 60% as minimum? I don't get it.
So, it's Windows software or possibly "low noise adapters (resistor to lower voltage)" that can be used, but is far from ideal.
actually, the ASUS Z97I-Plus has some of the best fan control I ever had on a motherboard..
You have to run the "Qfan tuning" utility in BIOS, it will check where the installed fan start running.. once you've done that, you can control the whole range. Only thing you cannot do, is going lower than the minimum start up speed (i.e. it does not check what is the minimum to keep the fans running once started)...
If you don't run it, the minimum for PWM will be set to 20% and for DC to 60%
You have to run the "Qfan tuning" utility in BIOS, it will check where the installed fan start running.. once you've done that, you can control the whole range. Only thing you cannot do, is going lower than the minimum start up speed (i.e. it does not check what is the minimum to keep the fans running once started)...
If you don't run it, the minimum for PWM will be set to 20% and for DC to 60%
You mean you can get lower than 20% for cpu (PWM), and lower than 60% for chassi (PWM), even in BIOS if you run the Qfan tuning?
No Hands 55
Limp Gawd
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Finally got my case! Issues number 1...
I have the asus z77 board. The top two screws are extra long because they have a part of the daughter board to go through. The ncase uses different standoffs with smaller threads than normal. One of the screws in the accessories works but it's not holding the daughter board down, just the mobo. The daughterboard is soldered on pretty good though. Think it'll be ok? HELP!
I have the asus z77 board. The top two screws are extra long because they have a part of the daughter board to go through. The ncase uses different standoffs with smaller threads than normal. One of the screws in the accessories works but it's not holding the daughter board down, just the mobo. The daughterboard is soldered on pretty good though. Think it'll be ok? HELP!
Are you tossing your case around like a UPS guy would? If not, it's probably fine. For peace of mind you could take the screws with you to a local hardware store and either get longer replacements, or find out what type of screw head/thread/length you need to order online
There are 2 screws in the mobo-box for that specific use.
No Hands 55
Limp Gawd
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Yeah that's what I'm saying those are to large for the standoffs in the ncase. I'll probably just keep it for now since it's secure with those other two but I'll go get some more from home depot or something
You hopefully got the larger ones mounted on the mobo when you got it, and then there are 2 smaller ones in a plastic bag in the box. The smaller ones fits the ncase, at least in mine
exactly. To make sure, I quickly checked the minimum it would let me set in the bios with several fans:
Noctua F12 PWM (max 1500rpm): Min 15% (tried both CPU and chassis fan header, same result for both) --> 213RPM
Noctua F14 DC (max 1200rpm): Min 40% (Chassis fan header) --> 444 RPM
Noiseblocker eLoop B12-1 DC (max 800rpm): Min 60% (Chassis fan header) --> 447 RPM
The only difference between the chassis and CPU fan header seems to be, that it allows you to turn off the chassis fans completely until you reach a certain temperature..
Results of Qfan Tuning: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2q8oi2a&s=8#.VNKO3J2G98E
Control options for the F14: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2nqccja&s=8#.VNKPBJ2G98E
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No Hands 55
Limp Gawd
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yeah i got it figured out. the ones that were originally on there with a nut fit the ncase which i had misplaced, but found. now my issue is i dont have any screws long enough to go through dust filter-side plate-rad. the ones corsair include with the h105 are only long enough to attach the rad to the side plate. not a huge deal but will eventually want the filters on. so pumped my build is almost done! will post pics later
Thank you everyone for your comments!
I looked at the asrock z97e and like the MSI Z97I gaming ACK, it only supports 2242 or 2260.
I will go with the Z97I-plus!
Thank you tkuhs for your comments on the Qfans tuning, I will be sure the remember it when I set up the bios!
I did think about the Apogee drive ii, but it seem that the pump is rather loud... Do you know first hand if this is true?
I looked at the asrock z97e and like the MSI Z97I gaming ACK, it only supports 2242 or 2260.
I will go with the Z97I-plus!
Thank you tkuhs for your comments on the Qfans tuning, I will be sure the remember it when I set up the bios!
I did think about the Apogee drive ii, but it seem that the pump is rather loud... Do you know first hand if this is true?
No Hands 55
Limp Gawd
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Crappy build pics! Doing a photo shoot this weekend though.
So happy how absolutely silent this build is when not gaming
3570k
hyperx fury 16gb
asus p8z77-i wd deluxe
reference gtx 970
corsair h105
samsung 850 evo 250gb
1tb hitachi hdd
CPU idle: 25-30c
GPU idle: 30-35c
So happy how absolutely silent this build is when not gaming
3570k
hyperx fury 16gb
asus p8z77-i wd deluxe
reference gtx 970
corsair h105
samsung 850 evo 250gb
1tb hitachi hdd
CPU idle: 25-30c
GPU idle: 30-35c
To anyone wondering about watercooling both the CPU and the GPU...
Kuhler 620, Corsair H55, Kraken G10 and two 3.5" HDD's
GPU temps dropped 17c when comparing stock Twin Frozr at 100% vs Corsair's Arctic F12 PWM @ 50%
First off. Kudos for pulling it off. Seems to be a very tight fit. Out of curiosity, where is the second 3,5" HDD?
That being said, I really don't think this is the best solution cramming everything in like this. For the price of what you've done here you could go air cooling and get a Noctua NH-C12 for the CPU and keep the proper HDD cage with the two drives in there and for the GPU you could do something like this. Accelero twin turbo II or III with two fans pulling air out prioritizing HDD temps or in prioritizing GPU temps. Far more elegant and probably both cheaper, quieter and cooler. The reason I think it would be cooler is that you've crammed so much stuff in there, airflow is bound to suffer quite a bit.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing your build off or anything. I still think its a great job for actually pulling this off, but for other people looking to achieve good cooling performance with that hardware config, I think it's worth mentioning.
To anyone wondering about watercooling both the CPU and the GPU...
Kuhler 620, Corsair H55, Kraken G10 and two 3.5" HDD's
GPU temps dropped 17c when comparing stock Twin Frozr at 100% vs Corsair's Arctic F12 PWM @ 50%
Those poor hard disks!
I agree that it's more elegant if you swap the Kraken G10 for an Accelero Xtreme or Twin Turbo.
Below the graphics card.
I had the NH-L12 on the CPU, it had NO capability of keeping my 2600k cool even at only 4.5ghz. Sold it immediately and kept the fans. The Kuhler 620 keeps it at an easy ~60c even with below 50% fan speeds, no contest there. Also I got the kuhler used for a measly 30, no fans
I also removed the fans and shroud from the 770 Twin Frozr keeping only the heatsink and vram/vrm plate and then ran two F12 PWM's on the bottom blowing in to it. Even at max speeds they cooled the card even less than stock fans!
I've had a few small & cramped builds before and it has occurred to me that tight AIO water cooling can sometimes (when certain criteria are met) be a more effective solution.
I have no doubt in my mind that there are no CPU/GPU air coolers out there that could make this setup any quieter AND keep equal temps.
Sure my HDD's get cooked up a bit, but that' doesn't translate into more noise, and they're always gonna wear anyway, that's what weekly backups are for
All other fans can be ran so low they are inaudible behind the PSU's 80mm jet engine
Below the graphics card.
I had the NH-L12 on the CPU, it had NO capability of keeping my 2600k cool even at only 4.5ghz. Sold it immediately and kept the fans. The Kuhler 620 keeps it at an easy ~60c even with below 50% fan speeds, no contest there. Also I got the kuhler used for a measly 30, no fans
I also removed the fans and shroud from the 770 Twin Frozr keeping only the heatsink and vram/vrm plate and then ran two F12 PWM's on the bottom blowing in to it. Even at max speeds they cooled the card even less than stock fans!
I've had a few small & cramped builds before and it has occurred to me that tight AIO water cooling can sometimes (when certain criteria are met) be a more effective solution.
I have no doubt in my mind that there are no CPU/GPU air coolers out there that could make this setup any quieter AND keep equal temps.
Sure my HDD's get cooked up a bit, but that' doesn't translate into more noise, and they're always gonna wear anyway, that's what weekly backups are for
All other fans can be ran so low they are inaudible behind the PSU's 80mm jet engine
You must have done something wrong in the thermal interface between the NH-L12 and the CPU. Several people have had a lot of success with that one. As for the GPU, the main difference between stripping a 2 slot cooler and the Arctic coolers is that the fans are right up against the heatsink. This is vital for it to work properly. Again. This seems to have worked well for you so it obviously has its merits, but generally i am 100% sure you could get the same kinds of results from proper air coolers. And when i say cheaper, I am of course also speaking in general terms on how much it would set you back to get 2 new 120mm AIOs and the GPU adapter.
I bought the Z87e-ITX for hackintosh purposes, and its been a bit of a process to get it fully operational. Sleep was the biggest issue, still not fully resolved, but functional enough. A few key members in the hackintosh community, namely one who worked with asrock pushed the board (bios) toward increased compatibility.
I have not read into the 97 board, but if its now just as easy as you say, I am really happy to see that there must be some continuity of the work put into these boards carried through to the newer boards.
Fan control wise, for a hackintosh, bios level fan control is absolutely essential for trouble free cooling, and the asrock is still the best
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One question, I want to mount 6 2.5" drives in an M1 case. What is the best way to do it, and do I need to buy more M1 accessories to do so?
I was thinking, 2 at the bottom with the included bracket, 1 behind the front panel (optical drive), 1 on the inside front, and I would probably need to get the 3.5 HDD double bracket on the ncase site (i have an sfx psu to fit this) and use 3.5 to 2.5 adapters.
I was thinking, 2 at the bottom with the included bracket, 1 behind the front panel (optical drive), 1 on the inside front, and I would probably need to get the 3.5 HDD double bracket on the ncase site (i have an sfx psu to fit this) and use 3.5 to 2.5 adapters.
I tried shimming the 120mm fan on the bottom that sits straight where the GPU is located with a 15mm fan bracket, it made only a degree or two of difference, still way over stock
I also checked and re-seated the CPU heatsink twice, it just didn't have the performance I needed seeing as I run a lot of voltage and upwards of 4.5ghz, I can't see how that'd be a problem with seating of the cooler and not how tiny it actually is, since I've done my own yearly builds for the past 15 years and worked in the business
The Noctua NH-L12 + Accelero Xtreme IV would've set me back around 115 euros, 5 more than what I paid for the Kuhler 620 used and the H55 brand new not counting fans and the G10 bracket, which I would've just made myself with what is available.
It was a no-brainer for me and looking at the temps compared with before and after noise levels I'd say I could've done much, much worse
Yes, and that is normal
The pump in the Apogee Drive II is the MCP35X, one of the most popular pumps used for years in custom water cooling. It can provide a lot of pressure and very high flow, enough for multiple blocks, radiators, angled fittings, etc. Of course at maximum power (100% / 4500rpm) it is certainly loud. But you should not run it at high speed in a low restriction loop like in the M1. What people new to water cooling often are surprised about is this: pumps, unlike fans, don't have a linear relationship between rpm and component temperatures. As long as you get to a certain level of turbulence in the water, going faster doesn't make so much more difference to heat transfer.
So, the MCP35X is strong enough to provide sufficient turbulence for 2xblock+radiator at around 1500rpm. You can set it very easily with your motherboard fan software to 20% PWM duty or lower and the pump will run more quietly. The pump fan profile does not need to rise with temperature, just a steady horizontal line is fine.
Aibohphobia
[H]ard|Gawd
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Received the prototype ? if yes, pics please
I should be getting it today but I'm still waiting on the SX500-LG to come in stock
ghostwich
2[H]4U
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Yes, and that is normal
What people new to water cooling often are surprised about is this: pumps, unlike fans, don't have a linear relationship between rpm and component temperatures. As long as you get to a certain level of turbulence in the water, going faster doesn't make so much more difference to heat transfer.
So, the MCP35X is strong enough to provide sufficient turbulence for 2xblock+radiator at around 1500rpm. You can set it very easily with your motherboard fan software to 20% PWM duty or lower and the pump will run more quietly. The pump fan profile does not need to rise with temperature, just a steady horizontal line is fine.
One more thing to note is that for pumps like the MCP35X, increasing the speed of the pump will actually have the side effect of adding heat to the loop. Granted, it is not much but increased heat and load on the pump is not optimal for longevity.
I tried shimming the 120mm fan on the bottom that sits straight where the GPU is located with a 15mm fan bracket, it made only a degree or two of difference, still way over stock
I also checked and re-seated the CPU heatsink twice, it just didn't have the performance I needed seeing as I run a lot of voltage and upwards of 4.5ghz, I can't see how that'd be a problem with seating of the cooler and not how tiny it actually is, since I've done my own yearly builds for the past 15 years and worked in the business
The Noctua NH-L12 + Accelero Xtreme IV would've set me back around 115 euros, 5 more than what I paid for the Kuhler 620 used and the H55 brand new not counting fans and the G10 bracket, which I would've just made myself with what is available.
It was a no-brainer for me and looking at the temps compared with before and after noise levels I'd say I could've done much, much worse
First off I must admit I completely missed how overclocked your cpu was. Sorry about that. As for the gpu heatsink the acceleros have way bigger heatsinks so i don't think its directly comparable. That being said, I need to actually do this to be able to fight harder for it
price wise the math (did a quick comparison) the twin turbo is what i based it on and that is cheaper.
Anyways, with those clock speeds you need water anyways so this round goes to you sir
callumbolch
Limp Gawd
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To anyone wondering about watercooling both the CPU and the GPU...
Kuhler 620, Corsair H55, Kraken G10 and two 3.5" HDD's
GPU temps dropped 17c when comparing stock Twin Frozr at 100% vs Corsair's Arctic F12 PWM @ 50%
more pics please good sir - want to se how your setup compares to mine.
im cooling a 290 with the g10/H55 combo and its such an improvement over the stock cooler - 30C+ difference with quieter running noise in low stress games and 20C+ in high demand games at slightly less noise.
im running all 4 fans as intake and its going really well atm.
this is right but i'm pretty sure the primary reason isn't related to turbulence.
modelling the radiator as a cross-flow heat exchanger, the ratio of power dissipation to temperature delta scales linearly for both air flow rate and water flow rate scale in the limit of low flow rate. in the limit of high flow rate, the ratio approaches a constant and increasing the flow rates further does not improve performance.
in saying "high" and "low" flow rates, the actual quantity of interest is the mass flow rate multiplied by the fluid's heat capacity, divided by some things which are related to the radiator's geometry and maximum performance. due to water's higher density, for typical watercooling speeds the water's effective flow rate is actually quite high and close to the saturated regime of high flow rate. for air, the low density means that unless you spin your fans insanely quickly, the effective flow rate is well within the linear regime.
theory: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s002310050374#page-1
actual data: http://skinneelabs.com/2011-2012-radiator-comparison/3/
No Hands 55
Limp Gawd
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Anyone have any tips on managing these cables a little better? I'm wanting to get a 92mm fan to go under the gpu fan and didn't know if there was any better way to tuck away everything other than under the gpu. Really wish i had the tools to make custom length cables
86 5.0L
Supreme [H]ardness
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Any recommendations for a 240mm expandable aio kit? I've been waiting and waiting for the kelvin s24 but im losing my patience for it to be released here in the states. Should I just wait some more or is there a viable alternative?
A 4770k and 780ti will be stuffed in my m1
A 4770k and 780ti will be stuffed in my m1
I'm only seeing charts relating to radiators with a fixed flow rate. Perhaps you linked the wrong one?
Remember, water cooling is a two stage process. Heat in, as well as heat out. Each heat exchanger will have a different graph of flow rate v heat transferred, the water blocks as well as the radiator. You have to consider them, and measure them, as a whole when analysing pump performance.